Morningstar

I am in Huntington Beach(Orange County, CA.) and I got it Monday via online order. I really enjoy the UNTIL video summaries. Great touch.

i give it to aquaman... Namor is too noble and fights as such..where as Aquaman doest care...he fights mean and dirty...hell use anthing possible to win.... namor is just to damm noble ....

Hey, no fair! I'm gone for a day and peace breaks out??? What happened to my daily flame war?

Happy b-day to all of you oh and btw..Nucleon...i still owe ya a slurp for your birthday present

Originally posted by Morningstar Thanks Starlord! I didn't even know I poste dthat info! 37 today! 17 seems like yesterday. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No kidding. Nucleon just turned 37 ye...centuries old last thursday. Horse of Fire and Taurus Constellation, right? Happy Birthay, Morningstar.

Thanks Starlord! I didn't even know I poste dthat info! 37 today! 17 seems like yesterday.

Nucleon, Iam glad the Cap portion of this is coming to a close but I must ask one thing: Why are you so resistant to suspending your disbelief of this one issue(The maximum human STR, DEX CON being 30) yet accepting of everything else that is insane in this game. Examples: A normal human, 10STR 2 PD 10 BOD can... Be hit by a flagpole swungby a superhuman capable of lifting a tank and not only survive but not even be dying! Be thrown though 3 brick walls and still be alive. Fall from a 22 story building and still live on average. There are plenty more but overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

Everyone also has to remember we are talking about "normal in a COMIC BOOK universe. Even the gadgeteer science geek looks like an Olympic athlete and an underwear model rolled into one. Normal people die falling down stairs and during baseball spring training drills. Do I even have to bring up the womien??

Trebuchet, Champsguy, Some very good points. Where have you been for the last 100 posts of this thread!?

Morningtar that's why there are campaign limits, there weren't going to be 26dex 6spd dudes just floating around unless they were a party buster. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is exactly why I asked if you had the option or not or if was limited by campaign or concept

Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive." Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.

[quoteNucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1000 lbs? That's 450 kg. STR 21. You ran into one of the areas of Champions that is a serious flaw. Flaw is the wrong word, decision to make the game playable is more like it. Strength and SPD are the 2 characteristics totally out of whack with comics, and physics for that matter. Look at the STR damage, throwing and knockback comparisons and you will see what I mean. The Nighthawk has a 20 STR and can lift 400gk With his skill levels he can do 10d6 dmg. That is the same as a superhuman that can lift 25 tons! This works for playability but is not very compatible with reality or comics. Even Cap the prime human doesn't hit 1/100th as hard as She-Hulk. It is ok in the comics since the writers have complete control of how the story and combat play out. But in game mechanics you have to equalize to some degree. Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo! Look at some of the knockback examples in comics. Hulk punched Juggernaut for miles once(didnt hurt him but how many body dice were rolled? Phoenix and Firelord blasted each other for miles once(not a scratch on either one) Even Wolverine got puched into orbit with escape velocity and survived! Exactly how much dice did he take and how much Body does he have? Even with 75% reduction he would be a dead dead mutant. One of the most classic knockbacks ever was Gladiator hitting Thing when they first met. Try to count the body required for Thing to crash completely through all of those vehicles and the distance he travelled. Dead Rockman. He was stunned and virtually dead but he lived(had his heart restarted by the Torch). And what kind of strength was that for that punch? You would have get thousands of body to do these things. OK what about SPD. Spiderman moves with 17 times human reflexes, agility and speed according to Marvel. Since the SPD table only goes up to 12, playing a true speedster is impossible. Wouldnt Quicksilvers Speed be closer to 100 and Flash 1,000? Of course we cant have that because the game wouldn't be playable. It would be pretty boring waiting for segment 250 to get your first move while the speedster rolls dice for hours. It is a great game that has to cut a lot of the fringes of comics off for funs sake. This is the same reason I think some characters in comics just can't be effectively made in Champions and that is ok. No one should be playing Thor anyway, or a myriad of others. Maybe this should have been a completely new thread to put this one to rest. What do you think?

Rick, I just went back and reviewed what you have posted. I realized that always prefaced your comments with the characters of "your world". I apologize, if I would have caught that each time before it would have been obvious to me we where not talking apples to apples. I got you caught up in the posts with Nucleon and Stargazer. If everyone is uses lower scores in your game than a lower score is appropriate for everyone. However no one automatically knows your feelings on these matters regardless of how long you have been posting or who ran the boards back then. No one has ever denied that you can make up for a lower dex to a degree by taking a lot of levels. But we having been trying to set the correct concept for Captain America. If we don't know you are talking about "your world",(which I missed) it is fair to assume you mean the one Champions has created and put charaters into. I think it is plain to see that in Champions world, Cap would certainly warrant higher stats among the 100+ characters than you or Nucleon use in your world.

Great Post Pattern Ghost. Lots of good points eliquated in a new way. Nucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs. Not to mention Cap is the strongest that a human CAN be. Meaning he is at a level where no normal can surpass. It is safe to say with miss maximum durability and dexterity to assist in a lift, he could far surpass any common records on this earth, not to mention the aggrandized one of marvel comics. If Cap was limited to what is possible for a human in this reality, half of what he does wouldn't exist. Now on to SPD. Lets assume you are a normal man, SPD 2. Why is it inconceivable to you that a human could have a 6 or 7 SPD? I would bet the house that in a 12 second span, Roy Jones Jr. could outpunch you way more than 7-2! Or any top level martial artist. You said that champions published characters are not common grounds for relativity?? They are all relative to each other which is the point. You choose to lower everything in your campaign, everyone understands that now. But my god for the 100th time, that is the game we play, the charaters we base ours off, and parameters that the game has established as attainable by humans and superhumans. Pattern Ghost even gave you the page number it is detailed on.

Nucleon & Rick, You have to understand that telepathy is a power in the game, none of us actually possess it. No one knows your house rules and the fact that you dont use any of the champions characters in your game except you. What we ALL have is access to the books champions publishes so that is an easy forum for discussion or debate. As far as you saying a 30 DEX 6 SPD not being Cap. I have given many examples of why that is appropriate for (again) the game that we all have access to. As for your question "don't you have normals in your game"? Yes, SCORPIA, WARPATH,NIGHTHAWK are all normals with expert training. They are not superhuman.The game is filled with them. Again do you see we are using the game as published? When you decide to rewrite every character in the game, it makes our common ground for discussion disappear. For whoever said"I've been reading Cap for 25 years and he has no more than a 23 dex max"..You must be using house rules too, or you think becoming an IRA terrorist, or growing up on an indian reservation can give you superhuman speed and agility.

I noticed this just became available to order at RPGShops.com So it looks like it shipped sucessfully.

Stargazer& Nucleon, When you say things like Cap should have a 5 speed and Batman a 4 Speed, are you completely ignoring the over 100 characters that Hero Games has already provided for us? If you are simply saving that in "your universe" none of these characters would have the DEX and SPD scores they have, well fine, but The same people who created this game, and who's boards we are discussing this in, completely disagree with you! PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!! Would you but BATMAN in to the Champions universe with a 4 SPD and 20 DEX when dozens of trained normals have higher scores than this? NIGHTHAWK of the Champions has a 25 DEX and 6 SPD and he is only a 350 point character! So Batman is slower than this guy?? Their brick IRONCLAD has a 20 DEX and 5 SPD. So the 350 point brick is faster and just as agile as BATMAN??? INSANE! They have OBVIOUSLY established that it is ok for trained normals to have dexterity scores in the mid 20's and SPD scores to be at least 5 or 6 for this type of character, not to mention a top of the line very experienced, best of the best type like BATMAN. As far as Captain America goes, are you ignoring that his CONCEPT and ORIGIN have ALWAYS been that he is a Strong, fast and tough as it is humanly possible to be! I commented before that those pesky guys at Champions(yes that game again) made TELIOS the perfect man fit that profile. They gave him 30 stats across the board except INT since he created the ability himself. Logically that makse me think Cap would hit these scores plus combat levels.(He is not a 350 point character!) I think everyone understands that you think DEX scores are too high and levels are underused. But I think when most of us uses the example characters created by the same people who made the game, as a basis for our own characters that is quite valid. And then we naturally stat Iconic top of the line Marvel and DC characters high in that range, it makes sense to us! I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Someone out there give me some affirmation!

I have to go with Namor just on the basis of a huge strength disparity. Namor takes on the entire FF and holds his own against the Hulk. Has Aquaman even been able to stand off against Wonder Woman or Superman? As far as I know, he isn't in that league. I honestly haven't kept up enough with Aquaman to know if I am wrong. Let me know if he has ben shown to be that tough. I don't think Sea life is going to make any credible difference. Even the nastiest thing in the ocean couldn't survive even a tap from a Character that can press 90 tons. Unless you pull out mythical sea creatures like Monstro. Even then, if Namor can snag Monstro, it is unlikely that Aquaman could summon enough to defeat it and make a difference in the fight with Namor.

Surfer has superfast A to B movement. He does not have classic superfast ambulatory actions like Superman or the Flash. That's a considerable difference, imo. (unless, of course, Surfer has changed... I mean, even the Thing can land punches on him fairly easily, and I'd hardly call him extraordinarily nimble). Oh man! I thought we had laid the Thor'Superman part of this to rest and moved on to how to stat Cap and what Dex constitutes superhuman!. Seriously though SS is about the hardest person to hit in comics. His speed is insane and he doesn't need to get close to you to smack you. He does his damage with cosmic blasts circling and dodging you even though he does have class 100 strength if you do get close. The only reason the Thing would touch him is if SS got close because he can't really be hurt by him anyway. WAY WAY back, Silver surfer wasn't as physically tough and was even knocked out by Spiderman but they have raised him high enough up the charts for Wizard to call him number 1 on ther top ten toughest article. I think it was Wizard #77? I have and can verify the number if anyone wants to look it up.

Nucleon, The Cap write up is well done but I thnk it is abondoning the pperfect human concept in order to save points. Great character if you were trying to play him and get under a 400 point limit but I think the question is, is it accurate to the Cap of comics? I dont think so. Would you seriously introduce this chacter into the Champions universe AS Captain America when you have amercan indian archers , and terrorist agents(Warpath and Scorpia) running around that are more dextrous? If you were just trying to defeat them with less points, absolutely, but it really isn't the Cap of Marvel? BTW wouldn't you make his shield OIF due to the fact it never gets taken away from him, also it is strapped to his arm and he doen't even drop it in the comics when knocked out.

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from? Cap's write up in the handbooks and his concept has always been that the Super Soldier Serum raised him to the peak of human capability. Meaning that he is as strong, fast, and durable as a human being is capable of being. None of his genetic material is anything other than that of a human being. He does not register as a mutant or a superhuman on any type of scanner in the comics. Neither would many characters in comics but of ALL of those Cap should be the Strongest, fastest, etc. In champions terms I believe that would put his endurance,recovery, pd, ed, stun all at the most a human can attain. I think wherever you say his stats are is where you are saying an unaltered human can not surpass. If you have a higher strength or dex or con in the marvel universe, then you have it through superhuman means, or you are a mutant. The question of what is the maximum a normal human can attain in Champions is not clearly defined, generally I think because there is no reason for it. I used Telios as a good benchmark because he seems to follow the "perfect human" theme. Also the only characters in Champions tht have stats over 30 seem to be super humans, not the experts that Scorpia, Warpath, etc. seem to be. Just my opinion but it seemed logical.

I don't think making Cap with the least amount of points is the goal here. I am sure you can make Cap more efficient with levels and less Dex but there is no need. Cap doesn't need to be 350 points. I think what others were trying to say is that his character concept is "the best a human can be" I think that definition sowewhat means without supernatural means or genetic changes. He is human on every scan and detect and sensor. If you limit him to 20 dex, than it is impossible for any character to surpass 20 in a physical skill without being altered, and no longer a "non super" human. I think 30 is appropriate for a couple of reasons. Mainly the dexterity level at which Champions gives to other apparent non super humans who are highly trained. If Scorpia is Dex 24, and Warpath is a 25, among many others, it stands to reason the ultimate human could be 30 Dex. These 2 are non superhumans with exceptional training, not superhumans, mutants, etc. Is Warpath supposed to be that much more dextrous than HAWKEYE? Hawkeye is certainly less Dextrous than Cap. Telios "the perfect man" was given 30 stats across the board except for INT. I think this is very good benchmark for Cap. Anything past this should have a superhuman explaiation and concept. WOW! This thread has morphed beyond recognition.