Morningstar

Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him). I certainly wouldn't have Dr. Strange being more points than Thor. Strange can be done almost entirely with a Variable magic pool. Thor has to have an enormous cosmic power pool and ridicuouls physical stats as well, same with Silver Surfer. My Captain America is 30 DEX (...)(not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think 30 is right on for most of Caps stats. I think the creation of Telios as the perfect man set that up for him. He is the strongest, fastest, and most durable a human can be. Not just before he starts paying double points. I understand you feel most of champions characters have too high of a dex score but that is the way the writers of the game have set the bar for us. I wouldnt make Cap less dextrous than most of the normal martial artists they have created. That would defy the fact that he is human perfection.

Onruncrest, Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO. Here is where I disagree with you: Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters: 1.agility 2. reaction time 3. accuracy You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic. Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not. First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one: Captain America Strength 2.5 Agility 2.5 Reflexes 2.5 Fighting Skills 5.5 Wolverine Strength 3 (when did he become superhumanly strong? Cap is as strong as a normal human can be) Agility 3 Reflexes 3 Fighting Skills 6.5! When did Wolvering become superhumanly strong, fast, agile and a better fighter than Cap? They are eliminating these stat bars as they update the characters but there were worse ones to. Look at poor daredevil. Strength 1 Durabilty 1 However his Agility is 3.5, higher than Cap's. Lastly the conversion of MSH stats to Champions is strictly your interpretation. You could have just as easily rasied the Champions converted rate by 5 points. Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

Sigh. One more time for those hard of hearing. First: The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense. I originally used the term GOD vs. MAN to illustrate that the WIZARD Magazine author used the terms to say they are in different classees of ability in terms of power and skill, the running talk of symantics is pointless. Wizard has now authored the opinion of Thor defeating Superman 3 times now. Thors "other half" happens to be the Earth Godess Gaea. The Elder Godess worshiped as Mother Earth and the god of life opposed by Cthon the God of Death. She is considered part of the reason Thor is head and shoulders above the other Asgardians in terms of toughness and strength. Lastly I think I have gone to great lengths to give specific reasons and examples of why I believe Thor would win this battle every time. Simply because he is a god is not one of them. Like I said before, I am sure Superman could defeat Sif, Heimdal, etc. Thor is just to much. Please read the whole thread again before asking me to repeat why.

Nucleon is a big, big fan of Thor and the Avengers. He have most Thors since Journey Into Mystery no. 83, and He can tell Thor's no dodger. The most Defensive he gets is with the deflecting trick. Fast for such a big guy, but no ninja. Of late in Avengers, he is the bruised and battered one, is garnment slashed to shreds and helmet gone, but still at the vanguard of the action. Thor was taking a pounding during the last group of stories when he was an Avenger because : 1 he was the only one on the team that could 2 The level of the threat was enormous. You are talking about issues where: 1. The battled an army of Ultrons(seriously an army when one is ridiculously powerful) 2. An army of Hulks! (obvious enough) 3. Kangs futuristic army that enslaved the Earth and Nuked a major city wher emost of the Avengers were defeated and captured. He has since left the Avengers after inheriting the Odinpower.

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX. Juggernaut 8 DEX? Says who? Who in the Champions Universe only has an 8 DEX? What I am saying is look at the Champions Universe and the collection of Heroes & Villians. Look at the ones that are obvious take offs on existing marvel and DC characters, they do not have DEX scores taht low. Warlord 20 DEX Ankylosaur 21 DEX So these 2 in there giant armored suits are as dextrous as a circus acrobat and THOR isnt? The incredible pathetic Bulldozer 20 DEX Circus Acrobat? Durak 23 Gargantua 20 Grond 18 What on earth would possess you to call THOR a 17-18?? Or Juggernaut an 8?? Now look at the non-melee types. Gravitar(Graviton or Magneto) 25 DEX These are just normal not very athletic humans with powers. Menton 24 Dex This guy doesn't even use his muscles. Are you saying for some strange reason all the characters in Marvel are slower than the ones in Champions?

Guys like Thor and Superman are bruisers, not dodgers. A DEX of 17-18 should suffice for Thor, who will compensate with high CON, STUN, defenses and sizeable CSLs. Cap is more agile than the Thunder god, and I put him in the 21-23 range, all 20+ char. bought at double price, of course. SPD too is often high. People seem to confuse high movement powers with SPD. Give Thor a SPD of 5, max. How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character. Read Thor comics and you will see tons of examples of a high DEX and SPD. FIghting entire teams , dodging and blasting, etc. Thousands of years of Dodging Giants, other gods etc. that actually can hurt him. In Secret Wars when he fights Dr. Doom, Ultron, the wrecking crew, Molecule Man, Titania, Volcana, and more I can't remember all at the same time, does he look like that is a low DEX and SPD? Actually look at the panels, this is just one small example. If I had time I would scan and past a few dozen jpg images just to make this insane thread stop!

Giving Thor only a 20 DEX would be criminal. There are numerous examples that I won't bother taking up 2,000 words to show his speed. Suffice it to say that whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't. Like Hela's death touch, Grey Gargoyles, medusa touch, or a cosmically sized giant like Suturs who's blows can even kill gods. He has been described as "fast as the lightning he lords over" That of course is an exageration, but 20 DEX is laughable. As far as the benfits of being immortal besides not aging, they do not suffer the affect of any disease, the do not tire, heal at an extreme rate, require no food or drink, etc, etc. THOR once fought ZEUS for 10 STRAIGHT YEARS! no time-outs, no bathroom breaks, no naps, etc. Two massively powerful gods hitting each other with mountain shattering fists and energy blasts and still no bruises or signs of fatigue after a decade while a mortal war raged and ended. That is immortality not just Alien

I am also very suprised that he doesnt have Life Support -Immortality, with the disadvantage of must have access to biolab for cloning. I notice that most robot types do not have immortality as well. Seems odd that mechanon doesn't have to pay the points to avoid aging, or that he does age would be even more odd.

I would be willing to bet that the only answer we get in that crossover is that they both hit hard, take a good blow and make a really unstoppable team when the inevitable confusion is cleared up.

I dont think it really matters if the hammers damage is magical(I really have never seen an indication that the damage is magical, just pure blunt force) Thor has been fighting other gods, giants, cosmic beings of massive proportions for thousands of years. His battle skills are unmatched. The argument about Superman being too fast is lame since Thor has never had a problem hitting ultra fast beings. It doesn't get faster than the Silver Surfer, and Thor had no trouble pounding him unconcious in there last fight. Here are some decent examples: GLADIATOR- KOed Thing with one blow, a feat never accomplished by the Hulk or anyone else, then "blew out" the Human Torch with his super breath(sound familiar), before uprooting a skyscraper on the rest of the team. His heat vision supposedly had the "power of a thousand suns" Against Thor he was beat down both times without any tricks. His super speed and heat vision didn't make a difference. It might not seem fair to compare Superman to obvious rip offs of him by Marvel but it is still comic lore and it is all we have to go on when comparing heroes from different companies. HYPERION- the most obvious of all Superman ripoffs, He was strong enough to break Wondermans bones, and push him through an entire planet. He even had x-ray vision and was vulnerable to one specific element. He was the Superman of the Squadron Supreme, a total JLA ripoff or intentional jab from Marvel to make them lose to the Avengerrs. Thor beat him down with little problem. If you really pull out the stops and say it is not just a slugfest but a true battle to the death, look at Thors "other" powers. He can truly do whatever needs to be done. In Champions terms he has a Cosmic variable power pool with a boatload of points! When he analysed the Force Field of the Juggernaut, he was able to simply remove it with his hammer so he could pummel him with his fists, when he was phased into concrete and his atoms merged with the ground leaving him crippled he decided to "unmerge himself" What would Superman do in this situation?? Nothing or wait for help from someone with magic ability. Thor has also many times absorbed or drained powers at range. He sucked in all of Ultrons power and sent it up into the atmosphere to detonate like a nuke. He absorbed all of the radiation powers of the Presense an enormously powerful radiation based villain. What would stop Thor from sucking all the yellow radiation right out of Superman?? A writer from D.C. would be about the only defense. These are just examples without pulling out the"magic" card but if need be Thor can even add the power of his life force to blows, making them powerful enough to punch through Celestials armor. If you are simply a Superman fan, I understand but I am a Spiderman fan and I still don't think he can take Superman.

Printing Lingo Back on 4-25 you mentioned it was off to the printer, and on 5-2 you reviewed the blue lines and got it back to the printer. I am curious about the steps a product takes to hit the shelves. Why the second pass to the printer? What are the "blue lines"? It looks like a great book, I can't wait! Thanks

"."As far as Thor being a god, Superman recently beat the snot out of Darkseid, a god, in one-on-one combat. What I believe the Wizard magazine author was trying to point out was the relative power differences in the two. This is not to say every comic god is better in combat than every mortal. It is safe to say that Ares or Sif(of Marvel) wouln't be able to handle the Juggernaut. He was simply stating that Thor is too much for Superman, that all.

Thor vs. Superman What everyone means by others powers in this conversation is powers that could actually help defeat a powerful opponent like we are debating. I dont think Super ventrilaquism will help him defeat Thor. and I don't think anyone feels the cheesy powers from the movies exist in the comics. Other powers also didn't mean super speed as that is just as much an inherent part of him as invulnerability or strength.

Thors Power BTW, Thor no longer has an alter ego and the hammer's powers do not transfer or transform anyone else who grabs it. Odin removed that quite a while ago. Also Thor is currently the Lord of Asgard and has all of Odins former power as well. I am sure it won't stay that way but currently a fight between them wouldn't be remotely close.(Thor just reassembled the moon molecule by molecule after it was destroyed)

Thor vs. Superman Supermans "other powers", which always means heat vision, are nothing compared to Thors"other powers". Thor routinely, not rarely, uses, energy powers to blast, drain, blind, remove enchatments, refect attacks back, teleport, teleport foes to alternate dimensions, etc. His energy blasts can knock down mountains, punch holes through celestials armor, drain ultron or the presence of there powers etc. Heat Vision?? Come on, do you really think Thor is going to be bothered by heat vision when firelords blasts dont stop him. He is just simply a much more diverse powerful character. Gladiators heat vision and speed didn't stop him. I don't think the "magic" issue about Thors hammer would inherently bother Superman, but if he needed it Thor could certainly bring it up, like for example removing the Juggernauts force field with a spell to allow him to pumel him.(just one of Thors many examples of being able to whip up anything he needs) If you are just talking about a toe to toe slugfest, than these two iconic characters poiund on each other for days but pulling out all the stops, Thor has way too much. Someone brought up "Hyperion" one of the JLA ripoffs that copied Superman. Hyperion was powerful enough to push wonderman through the center of the planet and break his bones with blows, but has been beaten every time he faces Thor

Thor vs. Superman Major Victory makes the most important point and I have one more big one to add. Thor has NEVER had a problem hitting anyone with super speed. Does the silver surfer ring a bell? He pummeled him severley the last time they fought. How about Gladiator, another Superman clone? He had no problem hitting him and his super speed either. Century upon century of fighting gods, giants, etc. Put him in another class of fighters than humans. Did anyone read the Wizard magazine years ago that pitted them against each other? Thor was given the nod on 2 different ocassions. The classic line was superMAN vs. thunderGOD. That was the difference.