Gary

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? No, I don't know why you keep bringing Warhammer into this unless it's how you regularly conduct superfights. Hint: Please stop pushing your Warhammer fetish onto others. It'd be a big swirling battle except that any losses on the hero's side stay dead whereas destruction of an undead is a temporary inconvenience. And that's not even factoring in Takofanes himself who could be wiping out armies at a time with very little risk to himself.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? Each continent might have 0-4. I wouldn't think Europe would have more than 1-2 given how Eurostar is portrayed. Maybe 8-10 on the entire planet.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? Even if every single hero on the planet banded together, we have 960 mostly 350 or less pointers (some of whom were already killed). Not a good matchup vs 125 respawning 800 pt undead.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? CKC says world. CU says Europe and possibly the world.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? That would be an exceptionally 'healthy' number of 800 pt heroes. Especially since there seems to be no indication that there is close to this many. According to CU, there are maybe 6000 total people on the planet with any sort of powers at all. And 2400 powerful enough to don a costume. And 60% of those are villains. So 960 heroes and 1440 villains on the entire planet. The vast majority of them should be 350 or fewer points.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? It's the CU that says Eurostar is the most dangerous in Europe and possibly the world. CKC page 66 and CU page 110. If you don't like it, argue with Steve Long and Darren Watts.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? You're the one who used the word 'healthy'. If you don't want to even bother defining a term you threw out, you shouldn't complain to me about it.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? Please refer me to anywhere in the Marvel Universe where the Wrecker is considered 'the most dangerous supervillain in the world'. I can show you chapter and verse where Eurostar is considered the most dangerous in the world in the CU. So IOW, your comparison is way off. Eurostar has been known to steal billions of dollars, destroy entire city blocks, and kill hundreds if not thousands of people. They've destroyed entire military formations. And yet according to you, not a single one of the 'scads' and 'healthy numbers' of greater heroes can be bothered to deal with them. You're really making a case for PIS. Better than I can.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? If there were 'scads' of 600-700 and 'healthy' numbers of 800's in the CU, then Eurostar would be a complete joke (all but 1 of them are less than 600 and most are below 500) rather than being regarded as the most dangerous Supervillain team in Europe and possibly the world. So I believe you're greatly exaggerating the numbers of powerful heroes on the planet.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? If I were GM, I wouldn't use Takofanes as currently written unless I was starting the campaign at a much higher point level. Or I would have at least 1-2 heroes on the planet built on the same power level with 150 pt VPPs who are assumed to be fending him off. I certainly wouldn't send him directly against the PCs. Maybe a few of his servants, but not Takofanes himself.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? I think we have different definitions of NPC. The NPCs in CKC, while generally weaker than equivalent point heroes, aren't that much weaker. And some of them are built relatively efficiently. What you're describing is cannon fodder, not NPC. And while low end undead should be cannon fodder, high end shouldn't. They should be credible opponents in their own right.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? How many high end heroes? Maybe a couple of dozen if we're being generous? Won't go that far against 125 undead who are at or near their point totals. Especially undead that can be replaced as quickly as they're killed off. And the various Infinity Sagas showed that it took stupidity or inexperience by the villains possessing omnipotent power to lead to their defeat. Or lazy writing. Thanos leaving his body behind and letting Nebula grab the Infinity Gauntlet? PIS in action. All the ones you mentioned are built on the same point totals and have the same or greater effectiveness as the Master Villains. Not like the case in CU where there is nobody on the same level as the MVs. Heck, the CU doesn't even have an Archmage at the moment.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? It's the Plot Induced Stupidity thing. If certain Master Villains picked that time to attack, the Marvel Universe would've ceased to exist and the artists and writers would all be out of jobs. So they simply ignored anything that they didn't want to deal with. The same with the CU. Do you think every single hero on the planet combined could deal with 125 800 pt Undead from Takofanes? I don't. Especially since he can simply keep resummoning them as they get destroyed. At least the CU does have an explanation in that Dark Seraph and Dr Yin Wu secretly help the Heroes whenever possible in dealing with Takofanes. But that leads to the premise of this thread, that it's the MVs who put a check on each other.

Re: Spiderman Writeup Did a quick Wonderman writeup. 493 pts not counting skills. I'm not familiar with what skills he may have. Value Characteristic Cost 100 Str 90 18 Dex 24 45 Con 70 20 Body 20 13 Int 3 13 Ego 6 20 Pre 10 12 Com 1 40 PD 20 40 ED 31 4 SPD 12 29 Rec 0 90 End 0 93 Stun 0 287 Cost Power 60 1/2 Damage Reduction Physical and Energy Resistant 40 40/40 Damage Resistance 10 10 Pts Flash Defense 10 10 Pts Power Defense 10 10 Pts Lack Weakness 6 +3" Running 50 Full Life Support 186 Total Powers Cost Cost Skill 20 +4 CSL with HTH 20 Total Skills Cost 493 Total Character Cost

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? I'm afraid that the heroes can't take too many more of those 'victories' if they lose dozens of casualties each time.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? He wasn't 2500+ pts back then...

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? Yeah, killing dozens of heroes as part of a deliberate plot to come back as a 2500+ pt monster qualifies as a 'defeat' in your book. At a time when he was personally much weaker. And who the heck cares about 'personally rampaging'? Last I heard, minions, bases, and weapons all add to your power and all are legitimate tools to attack heroes with. Or are you not going to count Takofanes's 125 800 pt minions as part of his power?

Re: Spiderman Writeup Depends on what you define as 'first tier'. You can get a straight brick like Wonderman at a very reasonable cost, and he's considered a fairly powerful character. However, there's no way you're getting Thor or Sersi cheaply.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? If you mean forcing a *far* weaker 4th Edition Destroyer to temporarily retreat at the cost of the lives of 'dozens' of heroes and the destruction of Detroit, and then having Destroyer come back as the 2500+ pt monster that he is, counts as a 'defeat' of Destroyer.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? Given that the CU itself stated that the MVs were keeping each other in check (Dark Seraph and Dr Yin Wu helping against Takofanes, Menton plotting against Destroyer, Destroyer vs Viper, etc) it seems as if the heroes by themselves wouldn't stand a chance based on descriptions on what actually happened.

Re: Spiderman Writeup I've seen comics where he lifts a lot more than what 40 Str could lift, even Pushed.

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive? Unless the 'tougher' heroes are a lot tougher than they appear to be, they stand pretty much no chance vs Destroyer or Takofanes. Or a few other master villains.

Re: How to have long combats