Hugh Neilson

OK, if we want Stellar gone there seems to be an easy way...He has 15 BOD and no resistant defenses when his force field is down. Lechstenstein patriot gets a high-powered sniper rifle (make it high tech supplied by Eurostar - say 8d6 RKA, beam effect, does no STUN). Tack on an OAF, and 4 charges, and that's a 30 point gun. Let's add some penalty levels vs. range from a scope, brace and set. He takes one shot while Stellar is at some public event. It does average BOD damage = 28 points. Stellar bleeds to death in two turns. Or it does a little over average and he's dead. ooo...just noticed that Damage Reduction. [sorry Patriot, but 40+ defenses AND 50% damage reduction? You get some of the blame here...] Maybe better to get the weapon through a connection with his alien hunters and have it kill him setting off his Black Hole effect. Or better yet, just make the black Hole kick in and he can't shut it off. What will his teammates do then? Note that he loses both his damage reduction and his force field thanks to that "lockout" - he's pretty easily taken down with that Black Hole in effect. Not sure why he's allowed "END and damage only when power shuts off", but then I don't get why he would buy three charges when the RKA damage should finish him after the first anyway. Hmmm...20 point mystery disad - could that be some way the aliens have of triggering his black hole effect (and Eurostar has figured out how to trigger it)? Cheesy? Yup. Pretty dark? Well, for four colour. Stellar seems to be getting pretty dark anyway. Would I do it? Probably not - but I don't have a player or character like that in my campaign. Maybe because I'd probably think of something like this...

To restate your key phrase "built to exploit the system". This is a vulnerability of any point-based system, and min/max'ing isn't that tough in most other systems. If we eliminate every ability which COULD be (ab)used to exploit the system, FREd would be much thinner! Let's look at another option. Lariat spent 77 points on her EC. What else could we do with 77 points? hmmm...another 30 DEX (her 6 speed's high enough to soak up those extra points) boosts her OCV and DCV to 21, and costs 60. We'll use the other 17 to buy a 10/10 force field at 1/2 END to keep her defenses comparable. How about another 55 STR (to 120), another 11 ED and 11 points to make her increased PD and ED resistant. That's 77 points too. Sure, we're violating campaign max'es here, but she already violates most commentator's campaign max ofd abilities at campaign max! Hmmm...how about 3d6 SPD Drain, Personal Immunity, Area Effect Radius extended once (so 8" radius). That soaks every character in range for about 1 SPD per use. After a turn or so of that, we should have no trouble mopping up any group of opponents. The bottom line is that any system is open to abuse if the player chooses to do s and the GM permits it. Hero is not different in this regard. It's not the EC benefits that grant power to Lariat. The EC saves what, 45 points? Put 225 worth of powers and characteristics as "only in hero ID", or "not in intense magnetic fields" and that saves 45 points. Sure, it will hurt when these come up. Drains and suppresses will hurt Lariat when they come up, and they likely won't have any lesser frequency. You said so yourself:

Well, v/5 = 5" per d6 = 1d6 per 10 points, plus these maneuvers typically have some OCV and/or DCV penalties. It can be abused, but so can straight EB's or hand attacks. The turtleneck and ski mask would remove the lack of full armour coverage. And it's the sledge type situation when heroes are really worried about protecting the soft targets in combat. They need noncombat abilities to deal with the Hinkley/Oswald situation. A bomb/grenade? He has full 8/8 armor coverage now so you'll need a pretty powerful bomb. Gas isn't stopped by most super defenses (other than life support). And remember, the hero's big concern tends to be whether the president lives. 8/8 Armor would go a long way iun the typical scenario - often, you only need to buy a phase or two so a fast mover can evacuate him. Availability of 8/8 armor to the general public, even if only the wealthy can access it, is a major campaign changer.

Elemental control Just thought it should appear on the page at least once

Re: Well this is another fine mess I see a couple of options: 1. Stellar has disappeared. When the player is ready to rejoin, he can decide whether he wants Stellar to stay "disappeared" or run some resolution scenario. Then you can decide whether Stellar was in hiding, or some other plot was going on. 2. Team Vanguard is ready to deal with the Stellar problem when something more urgent demands their attention. That "something" keeps them occupied until Stellar's player is ready to come back. #2 works best if you know how long the player will be missing and have something that can happen in the meantime (can we say "fill-in story"? "Annual"?) Otherwise, just "disappear" him and give some thought to what may have happened. Surely in his long career, he's met with someone who coul;d remove him from the campaign scene, whether for noble or sinister reasons. Maybe he's kidnapped by aliens/ otherdimensionals/time travellers for whatever reason ("Only his power can save us in our time of need"; "access his teleportation powers to aid in the conquest of the Universe"; "we need another Gladiator for the games - here's a likely target"). EDIT: Whether you have an idea why he disappeared or not, you might just find player speculation and theorizing provides you with a better plot anyway! Then they can "discover" that their speculation was correct and feel great pride in their clever deduction of your plot!

I saw it, but had no real comments to add - it's pretty close to my thinking as well. - Stellar was outside the genre conventions - The player was warned, so he can't say he didn't know he was putting the property, and its occupants, at risk - In my view, he ignored/weaseled out of his psych lim; at a minimum the frequency should be reduced if being near a villain results in "loss of innocence". Negilgent homocide would seem the most reasonable charge. And the political climate is heated by Lechtenstein's desire to cause Stellar (and Team Vanguard) as many difficulties as possible (maybe to prevent a search of the winery ruins before Eurostar can get some evidence out? Maybe just because it's an opportunity to strike at the heroes?)

An interesting question. I'm inclined to define a Defense as something that prevents loss of Stun and BOD (or other things, in the case of exotic defenses). The definition has to have limits, otherwise we get all these "defenses": - REC prevents me staying unconscious - END keeps me from taking STUN from overexertion - CON keeps me from being Stunned - DEX contributes to DCV (DEFENSE-ive combat value, right?) - EGO contributes to DECV - Hey, EGO, STR and CON all contribute to defenses! [that's more of a stretch in that the defenses don't get drained along with the stat) - PRE and EGO both give you presence defense - Denisty Increase provides knockback resistance - and so does Clinging - Regeneration keeps you from running out of BOD - Life Support is NND defense - Any common power can defend against NND's - So can characteristic and skill rolls And, since we all know players who will do so (none on the boards of course ) - Flight lets me avoid combat preserving my STUN and BOD - all movement powers are defense - Healing, absorption and Aid boost stats that can prevent being knocked out - What about my Transfer? It can restore STUN! It should cost double to drain too! Finally, of course: - The best Defense is a good Offense. Is there anything NOT defensive now? Hey, some of my disad's cause me to flee combat - aren't they also defensive? I think I'll stick to defensive powers being limited to PD, ED and the powerrs under the "defense powers" label in FREd. Either that or make them cost 4x to adjust and halve the price of adjustment powers (since they either have half effect or 1/4 effect.

I thought this started out as a "why's everyone picking on Stellar when Eurostar's the real bad guys" (kinda like, "How come those cops aren't put catching criminals instead of pulling me over for breaking the speed limit laws") discussion, but you're right - it's gone way out. And I agree with you - we might be in a position to discuss what happens to captured Eurostar members if we'd had some real heroes along, rather than the winery trashers.

Anyone who's fought against Eurostar, at the very least. You need an expert witness to testify to the tampering (or lack of same). An expert witness needs to be objective, and that means no one who's directly involved in matters under trial, or who has any form of grudge against the villains. Now an expert in law enforcement would not, as I understand it, be ruled out provided he was not involved in the case other than as an expert witness and had no prior involvement related to Eurostar personally (such as a relative killed by a Eurostar member). And it's not my definition of bias. It's the English language's definition of bias. That takes us pretty far away from comparing Stellar's situation to Eurostar's, which is where this all began. I doubt Stellar would get a lot of opportunities to explain how he was only trying to rescue his captured teammate in Russia either. [Not that I'm familiar with Russian legal procedure, but we'll assume the above for purposes of discussion.]

Originally, it was 5 points per BOD the character could pass through in a phase. It made it as far as 2nd Ed, but there was a minimum 40 point cost. The only people who ever beat the 40 point cost had it in a multipower so the excess was pretty cheap.

He doesn't have to appear in court to have a warant issued for his arrest. With that done, law enforcement needs to consider how to make the arrest stick. Now we call in the supers (of course, we also need to find Dr. D.) Well, as Fiacho's lawyer, I must protest the appointment of jurors who have already decided he's guilty without hearing the evidence. The statements of the media are so prejudicial that it is impossible for my client to receive a fair trial. BTW, why would Eurostar be tried in a US court? They operate in Europe. I would anticipate a world court would try them (or, perhaps, whatever country they're caught in). With extradition treaties, they'll need Decreased Aging to see their actuial cell - by the time they get trials in all the jurisdictions they're wanted in, they'll be old and grey. WHICH superhero? You need one who hasn't demonstrated a bias against Eurostar for their evidence to be credible. No one could believe OJ got acquitted either. "Better a thousand guilty men go free than a single innocent man is convicted".

Even signed confessions have been thrown out as coerced, made under duress, etc. And we come back to linking the confession to the accused. Video tape is pretty easily doctored. Does Eurostar leave a lot of eyewitnesses? Facetiously, how sane is someone who would voluntarily confess to what Eurostar has done. Regardless, insanity wouldn't mean "Innocent - be on your way!". I expect the character would be just as carefully guarded while incarcerated for treatment as he would be in Stronghold. But never underestimate the power of smart legal counsel! "If the mask doesn't fit you must acquit!". Hmmm...given all the publicity surrounding Eurostar's (or Dr. Destroyer's) activities, is it possible to find an unbiased jury so they can receive a fair trial?

Hypothetically. Now, let's get him in court to make his case. "Oh, it must have been him. He has an identical suit and he's the same height and build". Absolutely. Now we need a law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in Lichtenstein (perhaps granted by international law). Unless I've missed something, Team Vanguard doesn't have that authorization. However, I expectthat would be overlooked had they just gone in and gotten their teammate out (and/or brought in some Eurostar members). Lichtenstein might raise a fuss, of course, but no one else would pay a lot of attention. depending on whether they are known to be harbouring Eurostar willingly, they might be very quiet as well. I'm not certain the blatancy of Lichtenstein's involvement has been clarified. I suspect the rest of the world is not aware that Lichtenstein is intentionally harbouring Eurostar, or I would expect action would have been taken before now. At a minimum some form of UN censure, but more likely a resolution authorizing use of force, possibly including Team Vanguard being sent in with official capacity. Assuming Lichtenstein's harbouring of Eurostar is known. Otherwise it's just one nation saying "They have metahumans of mass destruction in there. Force is justified!" The lack of action by the UN leads me to believe this connection is not well known, and I think Patriot said as much some time in all these back pages. As Team Vanguard is not a sovereign state, they are not able to declare war. The four colour history would cut them some slack if they went in and picked off a Eurostar agent/member, or some such. It would not carry over far enough to say "Destruction of an historic landmark and killing civilians is OK - we know your hearts were in the right places! No investigation required." When a police officer discharges his weapon, there is an investigation. Every time. Supers are already cut a lot of slack by comparison. Let's look at this from the eyes of the outside world. Did they see Eurostar drag the teammate into the winery? I doubt it. Is it even known that Eurostar was there, or is this an allegation of Team Vanguard? I'm not sure, but I suspect not - certainly Lichtenstein is motivated to prevent any footage getting out, and there were only two survivors who could have leaked it. They do know (presumably through carefully reviewed footage??) that Team Vanguard was there, and that the winery collapsed. There is also a record of a similar incident from use of Stellar's powers. Will the general public believe Team Vanguard is innocent/set up/framed? Very probably. Does that mean no investigation is required? Not likely! Especially not with the Lichtenstein representative sitting in the UN (which seems to imply their relationship with Eurostar is not general knowledge) making noise about the issue. I sure wouldn't feel safe being in a building with Stellar after all that news!

I see...distinctive features makes it utterly impossible for someone to disguise themselves as you plausibly (or create a reasonable illusion of you taking some action). That's a pretty big plus for something that was supposed to be a disadvantage, don't you think? So he can argue that it wasn't him - that must have been an imposter in that suit. When Ah find heem, Ah weell crush his bones to powder weeth sound...no, that ees not 'ow you say - I weell geeve heem a very stern talking-to!" In a court? Proof. Physical evidence linking the person sitting im the docket to the crime of which he is accused. If he'll stand there and confess, then that should do it (or it might just get him an insanity plea).

Adding the difficulty of proving WHO was in that "distinctive costume" at the time the crime was committed. Or do we just shoot everyone with a similar physique so we can be sure? How much damage could Eurostar cause by going out in a new costume, committing some public acts, then leaving some poor kidnapped schmo in the suit to be captured and "executed for his crimes"?

"The world knows they're guilty"...sounds like justice to me. Most modern systems of justice havge this little concept of "innocent until proven guilty". The world court tried the leaders of Nazi Germany, whom I suspect "the world" knew were guilty. Given the responses from most posters on this board, the world also knows Stellar is guilty, so let's execute him without trial as well. My, this is easy. Who else do we know is guilty? Maybe the whole of Europe is guilty of aiding and abetting terrorism - how could Eurostar have hidden there so easily for so many years otherwise? Should we just nuke all of Europe? That should take care of Eurostar, right?

BINGO! Any campaign will fail if the players refuse to follow genre conventions, or if the GM refuses to make success within the genre conventions possible. One of those conventions would be to sit down and listen to the villain while figuring out one's next move. It's a staple of the genre that the villain likes to gloat when he's got the hero(s) in his power, and often reveals a little too much. Or offers up the hostage in exchange for some service which isn't contrary to the heroes' psych lims ("Bring me back Blackbeard's Treasure Chest and I will release your teammate") For some fine examples, check out most old Fantastic Four stories where they "visit" Latveria.

Negligent homocide and manslaughter are both criminal terms for causing death without intending to. How accountable should the supers be? Let's look to the source. How often do we see a comic hero thinking he needs to move the battle away from innocent civilians, sometimes even jeopardizing his own position to do so? THAT is heroism (and Protective of Innocents) in action. How "accidental" is it to blow off a 20d6 explosion inside a high risen and hope not to cause any structural damage and/or harm to the residents? Not very. Stellar's high volume teleport apparantly has a nasty little side effect which has been seen in play before - he chose to risk the lives of evryone in the winery rather than look for a solution that did not place innocent lives at risk.

Which is what I said - had they gone on to do something heroic - ie actually apprehend Eurostar; evacuate the civilians, etc. - the world would probably have looked the other way (maybe someone would say something about the specific legalities, but he would be hushed pretty quickly). They didn't, though. Instead, they trashed an historic landmark (by the way, architecture and efficiency of load bearing walls may not match what you know today when the property's construction dates back over 500 years), fled without checking to see if any injuries were caused and, all around, pretty much look like they have committed an act of terrorism against Leichenstein. BTW, plocie officers will generally let a suspect flee rather than fire a shot if at risk of hitting civilians. Simialrly, high speed chases are not entered into routinely. The first role of the police is to protect. If supers aren't prepared to live up to that ideal, they will likely find themselves having trouble with legitimate law enforcement (and the press). And where did it say their teammate's life was in imminent danger? By overtly invading the winery, Team Vanguard may well have palced their teammate's life in more danger than it was.

How about Ruby Red Crimson, the Scarlet Burgandy. [My thesaurus also comes up with Cherry, but that one has some connotations that aren't appropriate to a G Rated game ]

Yeah, pull the structural support from most buildings and they're just fine - they stand there perfectly OK. No risk at all to the occupants. The sense I got is that this isn't a 3' hole - it's a massive portion of the floor which gets extracted along with everyone else in the area. As far as actual crimes, breaking and entering is also a crime, as is unlawful entry. Which one applies here depends on whether Team Vanguard actually had to break something. "an operation against a terrorist organization" seems to imply some official sanction, which a SWAT team at least would have had. I've seen nothing to indicate Team Vanguard had any official sanction. This would logically come from Leichenstein itself (action within their borders would be subject to their laws) or an international body (such as the UN - which would imply they wouldn't be quite so loud about the results). The United States, for example, would have no jurisdiction outside their borders, so official sanction from US authorities would not support Team Vanguard's actions (not that there is any indication US sanction was provided either). So, based on the facts, and assuming i've got them right (Patriot - any misconceptions above?), Stellar/Team Vanguard's actions caused the death of several civilians during a quasi-military action not sanctioned by any legitimate authority. In other words, a terrorist action. I suspect Eurostar is convicted and sentenced. Now catch them and get them to serve their crimes. There is every possibility Stellar will soon be convicted and sentenced, with the same problem. And what would have happened if Team Vanguard had, in fact, protected the civilians and maybe brought in a Eurostar member or two? Well, I suspect the results of their actions would have overridden their blatant illegality, and they would have had medals pinned on them. Instead, Stellar managed to open them up to having something entirely different "pinned on them".

Re: ***Update*** Thanks for the update. Sounds like the team is a but mixed mind. When I read "support Stellar", it sounds very different from the "punishment" options listed. It sounds like accepting any of the three alternatives effectively removes Stellar from the campaign and forces the player to create a new character. Did they happen to address what happens if Stellar rejects punishment for his actions? Will they continue to back him, or does the team then back up the UN in imposing some form of punishment on Stellar? This would mean that, whatever the character choices, the player is looking at a retired PC. The options from the above seem to be: - PC in Leichenstein doing community service - PC incarcerated doing time - PC terminated doing nothing - PC on the run All of which mean PC not operating with the team, so not a viable player character. I'm not sure how you plan to approach this, Patriot. I'd consider a one on one discussion with the player that, basically, the decisions made by the team mean that Stellar WILL be retired from the game, although the manner of such retirement is largely dictated by the player's choices. He can then decide how Stellar will respond to these decisions. If it were me, I woud also rule that, if Stellar chooses to run, or fight against his punishment, he will be an NPC. Maybe play out the hunt/escape, but this can cause hard feelings in the group, so maybe not. I'd lean to "not" if it comes to that - all yoou need is Stellar to kill another PC or some similar result! Maybe the character is repentant and removed from the campaign (and we all know sentences like these can be reduced by actions in the game world). Maybe he's not and the team has to bring him in - whether to run that on-screen or off-screen is a good question. As is whether Stelllar is a PC or an NPC for the hunt/battle. Either way, the player needs a new character and Stellar is out of the campaign, at least as a PC. Maybe you even get an new megavillain, given the power level you noted earlier.

Stop anticipating our needs and start responding to us when we ask for the books you didn't anticipate!

Unless you think No Body is a +1/4 advantage if it still does knockback, I'd say it still does knockback. Ego attacks do neuther BOD nor Knockback, but can add "does knockback for +1/4 IIRC. That doesn't enable them to do BOD.

I like that idea. Alternatively, several smaller (one or two night, with less detail) scenarios rather than one large one. Some ideas for expanding the middle, with no real detail, would allow those inclined to expand the scenario, and those looking for a quick filler can take the one or two night scenario and run with it. I do love the long scenarios with room for other events within as well (intertwine them so you're at the beginning of one, middle of another and end of a third and watch the joy as the players start fiuguring out what's what!)