OddHat

As suggested above, it could be modled as an RKA vs ECV, Does Body. Easiest way to do it probably. Also, an Ego Attack Does Body Continuous or a high enough result with Mental Illusions could do it. The MI would be "You're having a heart attack," does stun and body, for a total of Ego + 30. If permitted by the GM and assuming 42 points of effect from the MI, it would inflict a 2d6 NND Does Body per phase until the victim made his break-out roll or died.

The Wildcards series of books explained all Super Powers as manifestations of psionics, and they're the closest to a "realistic" super-hero setting out there. If he pays the points and you don't mind having someone with Desolidification in the game, no problem.

Originally posted by Blue

I guess it *has* all be done before.

Mine hasn't.

Originally posted by zarglif69

whoa... like, whoa... that's really deep, man... *takes another puff on joint*

WHAT plane of existence are you from!?!?! putting the PC's in a situation where they HAVE to go evil!?!? Champions is all about being a HERO, not a villain!!! this might be appropriate for Dark Champions, but not the Champions Universe!!!

A: Get your humor detector repaired.

B: You specified "Something original, that hasn't been done in the comics before." That's what you got.

You're welcome.

Re: Need help with an upcoming campaign...

Originally posted by zarglif69

I'm planning for the PC's to meet their counterparts from an alternate Earth, who are a supervillain team. Can someone give me some suggestions for this? something original, that hasn't been done in the comic books before.

IT'S NOT SUCH A WONDERFUL LIFE

Your heroes see how much happier and more successful the personal and profesional lives of their villain counterparts are than their own. Furthermore, the heroes discover that the vilainous activities of their counterparts have ended world hunger, cured major diseases, eliminated countless menaces to society, and generally made the world far better for everyone. Your heroes attempts to stem the villainy of their counterparts leads to the threat of global economic colapse, mass starvation, and world war. Once they return to their own Earth, the heroes must ask themselves; Do they have the courage to embrace Evil?

You could use a VPP, with limited type of powers: Egyptian Magical Creature Summons only (probably worth -1). Then have KS: Egyptian Mythology or Power Skill: Egyptian magic as the control skill. That way you could write up as many different types of Summon as you felt like, subject to GM approval. It would be a fairly expensive construct, but very effective.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I really want this thread to be a good resource for people; powered thugs are always useful in the superheroic genre as fill-ins to make an encounter more interesting, to further a plot line, as part of a master villains nefarious plan, etc.

Strongly agreed as to the usefulness of thugs. I'd add that a group like this can make for a fun one-shot or mini-series if your PCs are tired of playing on the white hat side of the fence. Once ran a short comedy campaign where the PCs were members of Thugs R' Us, a villain team lead by a cyborg female mind-controller ("Dona Matrix"). Went well.

Most memorable out of character quote: "Have you noticed how much less property damage we're causing as the bad guys?"

Some great story hooks here. I'm deffinitely stealing this group.

Either of the methods you mentioned would work, as would a very high CON. Put the CON high enough compared to BOD and he'll die before he gets stunned or passes out.

Hermione; female form of Hermes (Mercury).

Also: Mercurial, Merry, Mercy

Or just go with something completely unrelated to her powers.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As for the fire cycle, it can't be stolen, takes a phase to resummon if missing or destroyed, and acts like a vehicle, albeit one with strange abilities. Summon Vehicle seems to work. And it is slavishly loyal - no one else can drive it away.

It works even better as Flight, Only On A Surface, Physical Manifestation (USPDB, p.100). The term "Visable Manifestation" was my mistake.

"Mister Summons a 97 Toyota Corolla Guy" might have purchased a vehicle with an AI and HRRH for the transmitter to call it. That's a point efficient way to represent a number of vehicles in films and comics, and fairly intuitive in play as well. If it is a specific real car that appears instantly through some kind of teleport gate we might have to use summon to represent it (which gets us back to this debate).

OddHat Wrote:

My position is that I agree with the rules as published

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Am I missing an official published rule on summoning vehicles? Maybe this is in Ultimate Vehicle, which I haven't read?

There I was refering more generally to the rules for summon as layed out in FREd.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

True. The villain needs to buy Mind Control to steal the Summoned being. What % of adversaries have Mind Control?

As many as the GM chooses to throw at you, just as as many people can steal your car as the GM chooses to have steal it.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson {B}Yes, the problem doesn't exist if the vehicle is "inherently loyal", but the original question was "how do I build a realistic vehicle that is not inherently loyal?" The player is willing to make his power less useful in the interests of better simulating the character's ability. Isn't that what limitations are all about?[/b]

As I said many times in this thread and the other. I also think that this is a case where the situation is best handled with house rules; For what it was actually meant to do from the description in the text, summon isn't broken.

OddHat Wrote:

Honestly I'd say so as well. OTOH damn if I'm giving point breaks on such an easilly abused power. If the PC wants a point break for his motorcycle, let him buy a multipower slot with extra running and the Visable Manifestation limit from USPD.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yeah, let's not let using the most obvious and appropriate mechanic get in the way. Let him buy extra running - clearly there's no reason at all to have the Vehicle construct, so let's just ditch it. Hey, let the paladin buy bonus running the same way - summoning a horse is just ripe for abuse!

Hugh, I'd rather not get personal with another adult in a debate over game rules. Now apparently you feel that I already have, which was not my intention. The passage you quoted was not any kind of attack on you.

That said, Visable Manifestation is a perfectly valid way of representing many types of summons, from Green Lantern's Lions that you refferenced earlier, to Johnny Blaze's Fire Cycle, to many of Doctor Fate's creations and on down the line. Buying extra running to represent a vehicle has been around forever in Champions. If you'd like a "summon" for a realistic vehicle that doesn't use the summon power, one example might be a car with an AI that responds to a radio signal; the AI then drives the car to the Summoner. Other types of construct could certainly work as well. If the Player wants to use Summon, generally he'd best be prepared to pay the points the rules demand, unless his GM's house rules say differently.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The bottom line here seems to be that my approach is "Let's charge the character points for the benefits he actually gets." Yours seems to be "This is open to abuse, so let anyone who wantsit, regardless of whether they exploit the potential for abuse, pay extra." In my structure, the guy who doesn't abuse the ability doesn't pay extra, and the guy who has a hugely effective use may have to pay even more than +1 (always assuming the power is allowed at all). Under your structure, it sounds like everyone pays +1 and if you chose not to min/max your abilities, too bad - no point break, you're just an inefficient character designer.

I cut the rest of this. I do not pretend to read your mind, and it looks to me like you're not that good at reading mine. My position is that I agree with the rules as published, and that house rules are enough to fix things to your taste in your own campaign. In mine I certainly would take a very close look at someone asking for point breaks on summon for many of the uses suggested in these threads, and I'd rule against most (but not all) of the breaks that have been suggested here and a few of those uses (no summoning Tony Blair, but I'd let the PC summon Talkie Toaster). Those would be my house rules, and I've explained my reasons; your house rules are your affair.

OddHat Wrote:

The questions are always "How much of a game effect will it have?" and "What is the in game effect?" If you want a steal-able and thus cheaper cycle, maybe you'd be better off building it using a different construct. Letting you build it with summon and giving you point breaks for doing so invites serious abuse down the road.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What construct would you suggest is reasonable for building a construct which summons a vehicle? Energy Blast, perhaps, or maybe an Elemental Control? Summon is the power one uses to Summon something. It's one of the very few powers in the game which cannot be duplicated through other mechanics. [/b]

For many uses to which summon is put, there are valid and simple constructs that work just as well or better, as discussed above.

Originally posted by Blue Angel

There is another question that came up earlier though and I don't know the answer. Maybe it depends on special effect. When is a summoned thing considered lost/destroyed to enable you to summon another one?

This is a good point, and from the book and Steves answers I'd say it's the GMs call. Personally I'd allow "Johny Makes-Stuff-Out-Of-Fire Guy" to create/summon a new Fire Bike as soon as his next phase came up after the old one was destroyed. Seems fair; lose the device, lose an action. "Billy Steals-Things-Via-Telleportation Man" I might make wait to the next scene. On the other hand, I'd probably give JMSOOFG some troubles related to having fire-gadgets that I wouldn't give to BSTVTM. Common sense call; when points are spent or saved it shoud mean something, and the advantages and disadvantages of a special effect should ballance out.

Note: All of Elvis' HAs do 12d6+the appropriate advantages, unless you've dropped that rule in your games.

I thought Wu could use a friend.

Tagged as Kung

Combat Information Page Character Name: King of Kung Fu (Watson Davis) Alternate Identities: Player Name: CHARACTERISTICS CHARACTER IMAGE Val Char Base Points Total Roll Notes 30 STR 10 20 30 15- HTH Damage 6d6 END [3] 29 DEX 10 57 29 15- OCV 10 DCV 10 28 CON 10 36 28 15- 20 BODY 10 20 20 13- 10 INT 10 0 10 11- PER Roll 11- 10 EGO 10 0 10 11- ECV: 3 10 PRE 10 0 10 11- PRE Attack: 2d6 10 COM 10 0 10 11-                             10 PD 6 4 10/26   10/26 PD (0/16 rPD) 10 ED 6 4 10/26   10/26 ED (0/16 rED) 6 SPD 3.9 21 6   Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 12 REC 12 0 12   56 END 56 0 56   49 STUN 49 0 49     11" Running 6 0 11"     2" Swimming 2 0 2"     6"/3"" Leaping 6 0 6" 162 Total Characteristics Points EXPERIENCE POINTS Total earned: 0 Spent: 0 Unspent: 0 Base Points: 200 Disad Points: 150 Total Points: 350 MOVEMENT Type Total Run (6) 11" [22" NC] Swim (2) 2" [4" NC] H. Leap (6") 6" V. Leap (3") 3" Gliding 15" [30" NC] APPEARANCE Hair Color:  Brown Eye Color:  Brown Height:  6' 4" Weight:  280 lbs Description: Elvis!

I have very mixed feelings about most of the Uber-Villains (esp. Takofanes and Doctor Destroyer) from CKC.

Takofanes has a fantastic background, but is absurdly overpowered, to the point where achieving his goal of wiping out all life on Earth should come down to waking up one morning and declaring "Doh! 1d6RKA Penetrating Continuous Uncontrolled Megascale O-End Transdimensional! There, that's done. Time for a nice cup of tea." He's great for the threat "out there", but almost un-useable in play.

Destroyer is similarly ovepowered, and his goal of taking over the world in the least practical manner possible is just silly. "Political manipulation? Building up support among the people followed by a series of millitary victories and coups until I hold power? No, better to pose, posture, randomly blow up a city, hide for a decade and then declare that it was all part of my Master Plan." He'd be a fun Doctor Doom knock off if he were powered down to the point where a hero group could reasonably chase him off, but as written he's only useable as a background character or as part of an NPC dominated campaign ender.

I'm a big fan of Demon. A few tweaks to make them an Aum Divine Truth Mystic-Religious cult and they can be truly scary without being unplayable. I usually incorporated almost all the magic-oriented villain groups into Demon.

Invictus was a great NPC, especially if you played up his political folk hero aspect before the PCs realized just how corrupt he was.

I liked most of the villain teams, tweaked appropriately, especially PSI. The newest version of PSI is quite good.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The character with Mind Control paid for the ability, and make up a very small proportion of the general populace. The original example is one where the entire population (absent those with physical limitations of one variety or another) can steal the summoned "being".

If "general population" doesn't make a difference in game play, it doesn't make a difference in cost. We've both cited that rule more than once. The question isn't "How many people out there could steal my summoned creature," it's "How often is my summoned creature likely to get stollen in play." Any GM who's going to steal your summons at all is just as likely to steal your Demon with a mind controlling sorcerer as he is your toaster with a toast-hungry villain.

As all of this is outside of the rules as written anyway, a simple deal with the GM to make your loyal summoned toaster exclusively obedient to you fixes any problem. "Yes you Captain Toast Master and you alone shall benefit from the complete loyalty of your army of bread making appliances."

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

[Frankly, I'm still not sure where the ability to summon a vehicle came from, but it's a reasonable ability.]

[/b]

Honestly I'd say so as well. OTOH damn if I'm giving point breaks on such an easilly abused power. If the PC wants a point break for his motorcycle, let him buy a multipower slot with extra running and the Visable Manifestation limit from USPD. Or in Captain Toast Master's case, he can buy a transformation attack: Bread into Toast.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Someone might steal my Energy Blaster" is enough of a reason to cut the cost of EB in half, and that's even if it's not usable against me. [/b]

The questions are always "How much of a game effect will it have?" and "What is the in game effect?" If you want a steal-able and thus cheaper cycle, maybe you'd be better off building it using a different construct. Letting you build it with summon and giving you point breaks for doing so invites serious abuse down the road.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Kewl. Id like to pretend that Im cosmopolitan enough to know the pronunciation from my many worldly travels, but in reality I read it in a Steven Brust book

Heh.

I'm good with Japanese and Chinese pronunciations; spent my twenties wandering around Asia (those who can't spell, teach). Everything else I look up.

Thank God for Google.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

By the way, am I correct in pronouncing "Milos" as "ME-low-sh"?

Yup, that's as it's intended. "Milosh" is a valid aternate spelling.

"Milos" came from a web site on Romany names, and "Fearon" is the family name of a gypsy boy killed while housebreaking in the UK a few months ago.

Originally posted by caris

The rub here is that we keep getting into the fact that we are taking the rules to do something that the base assumption is the power shouldn’t be doing, so the rules don’t address it. Your assumption here is that when you Summon Stumpy you get him exactly as he is at this moment in time, which is fine and logical. It is still an assumption. There is nothing in the power description indicating that would be the case. It is solely up to the GM to make it up on the spot.

 

Let’s take the example a step further. What if Stumpy died in that car crash? The rules do not discuss what happens when your Summoned dies or is injured when dismissed, because they assume it is irrelevant you are always going to get a different one. The basic assumption is that you will always get what you Summoned at full health and ready to go, so you could make the case that for the duration of the time that Stumpy is Summoned it is as if he was never hit by the car, and is fully functional.

Actually, FREd p.143, under Summon Specific Being, specifically cautions against allowing the summoning of Officer Stumpy (or Tony Blair) unless you've already located them by "some other means." It doesn't look like it was intended for summoning anything much beyond spirits of the dead, and doesn't directly address issues like always getting the same summoned toaster or demon at all. All of it comes the GMs call, which for a power as potentially unballancing as Summon makes perfect sense.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Champions Universe: Through the 'Ages'

Originally posted by Hermit

I'm afraid it's just that sort of example I saw all too often in some comics in the 90s that turned me off "Iron Age". I'm trying to get over my bias as I've since been told its not all like that... but I think I still prefer my "Tarnished Silver" and Bronze

I'm quite a fan of tarnished silver myself.

"Realistic" iron age settings where everyone is an angst filled drug addled psychotic are boring as hell. It's an angry teenagers vision of the adult world, the X-men's paranoia carried one step further. I don't think it would be possible to run a campaign in that kind of setting for long; certainly I couldn't do it, except as a comedy mini-series.

OTOH, realistic campaigns at the Wild Cards / Hong Kong Supers Without Spandex level have been some of my favorites. Personal taste and all that.

So are you going to give us some guidelines for your Tarnished Silver Setting?

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Cool; a gypsy Demise

 

Ill get him all linked up in a bit.

 

BTW, whats going on isnt the attachment; your closing anchor tag at the top is biffed somehow, and its throwing the page's tag rendering off.

 

The problem is your using a \ where you should be using a /

 

Which is totally my fault bcs I did that in the example I put up {SMACKS SELF}. Sorry!

Oh well. Fixed it as best I can. The attachment is still screwy though.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But this brings us fuill circle to the original quiestion - I CAN make things slavishly loyal to me, and me alone. If they are not, due to conception (ie whoever gets the keys or hotwires it can take the van), what's the change to the cost?

 

I like the structure posted earlier for vehicles, myself. Nonsentient being summons can use that structure, and sentients the amicable structure. Seems fair.

There's always a chance that your summoned minions will be mind controlled away from you. In many games, it's every bit as likely as having a punk steal your summoned motorcycle while you're searching the villains lair. No sane GM is going to give you points back for "minions might be mind controlled." If you do manage to brow beat your GM into giving you the point break for "someone might steal my BatToaster," that's all in the house rules. I'd say the stink of munchkinism is fairly high on this one.

The attachment seems to be a bit screwy. Here's Milos' .hdc file.

Milos FearonThe inspirations for this character should be obvious.

Combat Information Page Character Name: Milos Fearon Alternate Identities: Player Name: CHARACTERISTICS CHARACTER IMAGE Val Char Base Points Total Roll Notes 13 STR 10 3 13 12- HTH Damage 2 1/2d6 END [1] 18 DEX 10 24 18 13- OCV 6 DCV 6 23 CON 10 26 23 14- 20 BODY 10 20 20 13- 18 INT 10 8 18 13- PER Roll 13- 29 EGO 10 38 29 15- ECV: 10 18 PRE 10 8 18 13- PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6 10 COM 10 0 10 11-                             12 PD 3 0 12   12 PD (9 rPD) 14 ED 5 0 14   14 ED (9 rED) 4 SPD 2.8 12 4   Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12 8 REC 8 0 8   46 END 46 0 46   39 STUN 39 0 39     6" Running 6 0 6"     2" Swimming 2 0 2"     2 1/2"/1"" Leaping 3 0 2 1/2" 139 Total Characteristics Points EXPERIENCE POINTS Total earned: 0 Spent: 0 Unspent: 0 Base Points: 200 Disad Points: 150 Total Points: 350 MOVEMENT Type Total Run (6) 6" [12" NC] Swim (2) 2" [4" NC] H. Leap (3") 2 1/2" V. Leap (1") 1" APPEARANCE Hair Color:  Grey Eye Color:  Grey Height:  5' 7" Weight:  136 lbs Description: Small, thin man of indeterminate age. Often disguised. Street clothes.