OddHat

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But +1/4 Amicable gets you out of the control roll (although you can't mistreat the Friendly or it may become less friendly).

You've answered your own protest Hugh. You can mistreat your summoned toaster all you want and it won't rebell. Though it would be cool if it did.

I originally posted this on the discussion board, but I was wondering if there's an official rule. I couldn't find anything in FREd or the FAQ.

How much for an "overall" penalty skill level? In other words, a penalty skill level that offset penalties not just to a specific penalty against OCV, but to any roll (including skill rolls)? The any attack penalty level tops out at 3 points per. To me that looks like an 8 point level with all combat and a -2 limitation. Would 5 points per overall penalty skill level be appropriate? A 10 point overall level with a -1 limitation?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Thanks Yamo and RadeFox. Rade, you make some good points. OTOH, only being able to use an overall level to offset penalies but not actually to add a bonus seems like more than a -1/4 loss of functionality. I'll post this to the Rules Questions board and see if there's an official rule on this.

Thanks for any more votes pro or con.

Yes. No contest to controll it = Slavishly loyal.

If you could possibly use it...

If someone could use this...

Challenge Answered

Combat Information Page Character Name: HYBORG (Prince Duke Earl) Alternate Identities: Player Name: CHARACTERISTICS CHARACTER IMAGE Val Char Base Points Total Roll Notes 30 STR 10 20 30 15- HTH Damage 6d6 END [3] 20 DEX 10 30 20 13- OCV 7 DCV 7 23 CON 10 26 23 14- 20 BODY 10 20 20 13- 10 INT 10 0 10 11- PER Roll 11- 11 EGO 10 2 11 11- ECV: 4 20 PRE 10 10 20 13- PRE Attack: 4d6 10 COM 10 0 10 11-                             12 PD 6 6 12/27   12/27 PD (0/15 rPD) 10 ED 5 5 10/25   10/25 ED (0/15 rED) 6 SPD 3.0 30 6   Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 11 REC 11 0 11   46 END 46 0 46   47 STUN 47 0 47     6" Running 6 0 6"     7" Swimming 2 0 7"     11"/5 1/2"" Leaping 6 0 11" 149 Total Characteristics Points EXPERIENCE POINTS Total earned: 72 Spent: 72 Unspent: 0 Base Points: 200 Disad Points: 150 Total Points: 422 MOVEMENT Type Total Run (6) 6" [12" NC] Swim (2) 7" [28" NC] H. Leap (6") 11" V. Leap (3") 5 1/2" APPEARANCE Hair Color:  None Eye Color:  Black Height:  7' 0" Weight:  330 lbs Description: He's a guy! He's a crab! He's some kind of cyborg! No, some kind of Hyborg!

I'd agree that the new CU is very much four color, far more so than my default campaign world. OTOH Champions has always been pretty uneven, with everything from pure four color to seriously dark realisitic horror mixed in the same game world. The new setting is at least (fairly) consistent. I don't like that Dark Champions is going to be taking place in the same world.

My current campaign uses bits and pieces from the world backgrounds of a half-dozen authors, with CU and CKC mainly used for a quick villain or NPC hero.

Sorry, I can't find this in FREd, and I'm not quite sure if it's legal, but...

How much for an "overall" penalty skill level? In other words, a penalty skill level that offset penalties not just to a specific penalty against OCV, but to any roll (including skill rolls)? The any attack penalty level tops out at 3 points per. To me that looks like an 8 point level with all combat and a -2 limitation. Would 5 points per overall penalty skill level be appropriate? A 10 point overall level with a -1 limitation?

I'm working on a luck based magician, similar to another character that showed up on the old boards. The idea would be that since you can accomplish "impossible" tasks for a -10 skill roll, he would buy overall penalty skill levels to represent luck-based magic. Shooting the bad gut in the eye (levels applied against hit location modifier), leaping out of a plane and landing unharmed (levels applied to breakfall), forging a passport in a few seconds (skill levels applied against the time chart as per USPDB), that sort of thing.

All input appreciated.

! With a special round of aplause for Jude (wo I hope was an ordained priest or at least a seminary student before gaining his powers) and Cutter!

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I think only the pedophile Batman clone had gained a limited Regeneration via a Blood transfusion from the superman -- they had been lovers at one point IIRC. The Batman dude gave transfusions to his sidekicks, but it was diluted/not as good. In fact, I think his prior sidekick got caught in a bomb and blown to hell and gone along with the other previous crop of sidekicks, and his weak regen kept him alive, but horribly messed up and hideous.

Maybe so. It's been a long time.

I can't see anyone trying to run that as a campaign.

Originally posted by Old Man

Sounds like Brat Pack to me, but it may have been done more than once. I can't remember most of the details of the series.

Was this the one where all of the supers had regeneration based on a blood transfusion from the "Superman" of the setting? Ends with "Superman" returning from space and draining the life force back out of all the "heroes?"

Good and very twisted series. I remember the first book of the prequel, with the infant "Superman" acting like a normal infant, throwing temper tantrums and growing up to be an (almost) uncontrolable monster. Never got the rest of the books.

Originally posted by McCoy

Mary Ann. Nothing seems right. Invisibility/desolidification/shrinking? Maybe. Ninja-like stealth and sneak attacks? Maybe. As the avitar of envy, perhapse a power mimic? "Gee, I wish I had that power! Oh wait, now I do!"

Lust powers. Super high PRE vs. Men, Ego Attack defined as "Thinking Unclean Thoughts," magic lasso and riding crop.

Mary Ann was always way hotter than Ginger.

In the examples below, the attacker's 6d6 always rolls 18 stun.

6d6 NND vs. Flash Def hits Bob. Bob has no flash def. He takes 18 stun

6d6 AVLD vs. Flash Def hits Bob. Bob has no flash def. He takes 18 stun

6d6 NND vs. Flash Def hits Mister Mirrorshades. MM has 10 Flash Def. He takes no stun

6d6 AVLD vs Flash Def hits Mister Mirrorshades. MM has 10 Flash Def. He takes 8 stun.

An NND is blocked entirely by the appropriate def, including unusual defenses. An AVLD is only partially blocked, and (iirc) must be applied against Power Def, Flash Def, or Mental Def (may be wrong on this last bit).

Originally posted by DoItHTH

Wouldn't only being able to summon a specific being be balance out by the fact that they can be injured and killed?

 

If we accept the +1 advantage to limit summon to an individual how much of a disadvantage would you give for "must be allowed to heal fully or comes hurt." To me this would be a -1 limitation.

That's a tough one as well. IMO the advantage was designed for people summoning specific spirits of the dead to learn their secrets, greater demon princes to work a deal, a specific Djinn to ask for a wish, a specific loa to ride a character or npc, etc. Most of these are non-combat situations. If you plan to use the power in combat, at a guess the GM might;

1) Ask you to stick to summoning generic spirits and beasts as cannon fodder.

2) Tell you to suck up the lost points if your specific summon gets killed, as if it were a follower.

3) Allow you to learn to summon something new worth the same number of points, just as he might let you replace a dead follower with someone new.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The Summoned creature should clearly be built on a point base which is appropriate to his power/usefulness in the game. And the summoner pays for that extra-powerful character. If his Summon is 1 point, standard human, he doesn't get Tony Blair - he's clearly got more points than "nil balance".

 

But if he's paid for the ability to summon a 150 point human instead, he should get a 150 point human.

I agree with all of this. Before dropping the Tony blair example, I'd ask just how useful having a head of state is going to be in your game, to your player. That determines the base points on which you (as GM) would build the summoned NPC. If Tony Blair doesn't bring much more benefit to the summoner than a valuable hostage, then in game you could make a case that he's only worth 150 points or less. If summoning and controling Tony Blair gives your PC effective control over much of the government and military of the UK, including intelligence services, campaign specific special resources, etc, then Tony is worth a hell of a lot of base points.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The Summon should be somewhat better defined (which is why it works better with summoning generic creatures). But why should my "Summon spirit of Mentor" power cost twice as much as your "Summon spirit of a random knowledgeable wizard power when we both get the same effects?

[/b]

If they have the same effects (in most likely in game situations), there's no advantage. I said the same thing in an earlier post.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As pointed out elsewhere, if the only advantage is that the "specific person" is amicable, either I must have paid for "amicable", or I will quickly wear out his good feelings by constantly bugging him.

[/b]

I didn't suggest that the main advantage should ever be that the spirit was amicable. I did mention continuity of experience, but that's a different issue.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The ability to select ANY specific person from your potential summonees is clearly a big advantage, well worth the +1. The ability to summon only one specific entity, rather than a broad range, is a restriction.

[/b]

Or, as Steve Long posted, it's a -1/2 restriction on the original +1.5 advantage. That's why I suggested allowing players to take a +1.5 summon any specific individual advantage.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Going back to my "specific wizard versus generic wizard spirit", if I use my Summon and ask about the Talisman of Iq'Kwerty, and my mentor says "never heard of it", I'm out of luck

 

Your randomly summoned spirit says "No, never heard of it", so you say "Oh well - thanks anyway! Back you go" and call up a different one, until you get an answer. Assuming the information would be known by a reasonable subset of "knowledgeable wizards", you'll get an answer eventually. I won't.

[/b]

This is kind-of valid. On the other hand, there are always situations where a given power would be more or less useful. If your GM wants to make your +1 Summon Mentor worthwhile compared to Summon Knowledgeable Wizard, he should probably allow for situations where your mentor has knowledge that is very applicable to a given situation. I admit that it's a bit of a kludge to say that the GM should find a way to make something worthwhile. On the other hand, that's true with almost all non-combat skills. Why spend points on stealth / lipreading / universal translator / whatever if it's not going to be useful in a campaign? The answer is that it would be a waste of points in that campaign, but that doesn't mean that it should be free in the standard rules.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

If this is knowledge our group wouldn't have (eg. a question about fencing styles), neither of us will get an answer - that's the limitation of the Summon we selected, and we need a broader group (like "all spirits of the dead") to get beyond that limit.

 

Which of us has the power which should cost more points, the guy who gets one chance, or the guy who gets to keep trying until he gets what he wants.

[/b]

A fair question. Maybe the GM goofed by permitting a category like "Spirits of Knowledgeable Wizards" that was, in his campaign, more powerful for the same puposes than a more expensive power.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But, you say, My character knows exactly what he gets - perhaps my mentor is an expert in spell research and knows little about magic objects. Advantageous? Well, I guess I know to save the END and not summon him to ask my question - is that worth +1?

[/b]

If there are other circumstances where he is more useful (as there should be if the GM green lighted the power), then yes.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What would truly be advantageous to the point of making it worth doubling the cost would be the ability to select from a pool of Knowledgeable Wizards, and pick one I know (or who was reputed to be) expert in magical artifacts. [/b]

Yep. I'd say that would be a +1.5 advantage.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

He's not worth that much more. And let's take the comparison further - 150 points would be a ton to build our hypothetical world leader with, so a 30 point summon with a +1.5 advantage to select from a group of world leader makes 75 points. Or we can buy a similar summon to get a specific 150 point fire demon.

 

Compare this to the power to Summon a (random) 300 point Fire Demon who's friendly, so will do what you request within reason. Same cost - 60 points and a +1/4 advantage to make him Amicable. Which ability is more useful?

Now this is just getting silly.

I have no problem with whatever house rules you like to use, and I've explained why I mostly agree with the rules as published on this. If you disagree, that's cool: neither of us are in the same campaigns.

If your GM were willing to let you build the "Summon Tony Blair" power, I'd say that would be a hell of a lot more powerful in most circumstances than "Summon Random Fire Demon." After all, Tony Blair could call on a heck of a lot of additional resources for your character. If I were GMing, and I permitted that power, I'd build Tony Blair on quite a few points to reflect that, mostly puting the points into bases, vehicles, followers (including British supers), whatever. You could do much of the same thing with just the Head of State perk, but considering what the player would actually be able to do in game over the long term with control over a head of state it would be very, very unballanced.

The real question is whether the random fire demon is more valuable than the specific named fire demon. I'm guessing that your position is that if you've spent the same number of points on both then they should be equally valuable. Cool, that makes sense. If you then say that the number of benefits you get from a 150 point random fire demon are greater than the benefits you get from a 75 point named fire demon, I'd say that the problem is with the use you and the GM plan to make of the demon. If you just want a fire-demon shock trooper, a random fire demon will do the job better for the same points. If you want a weak fire demon with specific skills and knowledges (and maybe powers) that are useful in a given situation, that's what the Summon Specific Being advantage is for. At the same point cost for the power he should be just about as useful, though probably in a different way. If you want someone who is both a kick-ass shock trooper and possessed of specific and controllable knowledge and skills that will have an impact on the game, he should cost more, otherwise you're getting something for nothing.

If it wouldn't make a difference in your campaign, that's fine. That's what house rules are for.

Originally posted by JmOz

I disagree, most head of states are going be alot less than you seem to think, 15 points in COM/PRE, 30points in perks, 30 in skills, I would be surprised if most even broke 150 points total

Fair enough, that's the GM's call. He's still worth more base points than the average NY City taxi driver.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So for +1.5, I change from "a random NY cabbie" to "any specific NY cabbie" or from "a random head of state" to "any specific Head of State"? Are these advantages of similar value?

By the way, that's not what I wrote. For the base cost of summon you can gat a random NY cabbie, or a random head of state. For +1 you get one specific NY cabbie, or one specific head of state. I suggested (as a house rule) that it would be reasonable to pay +1.5 and get a choice of any specific NY cabbie or head of state. Under the official rules, I'm not sure that's possible without buying a Summon VPP, though I think that the Expanded Class advantage from FREd could be used here.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The bottom line is that the unwritten corollary to the basic rule of limitations needs to be considered here.

 

"An advantage that does not actually provide an advantage does not cost points."

Agreed here.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So for +1.5, I change from "a random NY cabbie" to "any specific NY cabbie" or from "a random head of state" to "any specific Head of State"? Are these advantages of similar value?

 

With one, I get to my destination faster. With the other, I can kidnap the head of government of any world nation whenever I want.

 

Now, I expect the base points will differ, but it seems to me the selective ability on heads of state is worth quite a bit more that selecting my cabbie. I can PHONE Lenny and ask him to specifically come and pick me up. Try calling Tony Blair and asking him how 3 o'clock works for him!

I agree with some of this, but I'd take the opposite approach. The value of the advantage itself is the same; the difference is all in the base cost of the character summoned. Tony Blair is probably a 300 point summon or more; summoning him specifically is going to cost you 120 points (60 base +60 for the advantage), where as calling Lenny will only cost you 20 (10 base +10 for the advantage). So you did pay more to be able to kidnap a world leader than to be able to call Lenny, and you got more for it. I do agree with your next post.

Originally posted by JmOz

Thank you for finnaly starting to come around, what I am actualy proposing (Though I have not put it to word yet) is this:

 

Specific Being: +0 to +1, depending on usefulness, so Lenny the standard Cabby is worth +0, Ben Adreddii the amazing cabby might be worth +1/2, Meter Dan and his Magic cabby might be worth a +1

Nope Jim.

By "additional +1/2 advantage" I meant that being able to pick one specific being was worth +1, being able to pick from a list of tightly related specific beings should be worth +1 for specific beings and in addition +1/2 for the list, or a total of +1.5 for "any one specific NY cab driver." If you want Meter Dan and his Magic Cab, it sounds like he'd be built on more points than Lenny. You'll have to buy a Summon for 200 point Cab Drivers.

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But why should the cost to get GRKZT the specific generic Fire Demon be double the cost to get a generic fire demon?

It depends on how much fire demons vary in their knowledge and abilities in your campaign. If all of them have the same powers, the same skills, and the same knowledge and experience, then summoning one specific fire demon isn't an advantage, and you shouldn't spend the points on it. OTOH, the Greater Devil Asmodeus has different skills, powers and knowledge than any other Greater Devil, despite the fact that all greater devils are built on 1000 points and share some powers in common. It is definitely an advantage to be able to summon Asmodeus is a situation where you need his specific knowledge, skills or powers. Same with Lenny. All NY city cab drivers may be built on 50 points, and all of them have roughly equivelant taxi cabs at their disposal. On the other hand, summon Lenny specifically and you know you get his Native Language: English skill and AK: New York City 13 or less. Call for a random 50 point cab driver and you may end up (GMs whim) with Achmed, who only has English: Basic Conversation and AK: New York City 8 or less, and sunk all of his other points into Iraqi soap opera related skills.

That said, I agree that allowing an additional +1/2 advantage: May Summon Any One Specific Cab Driver You Know Of would be perfectly reasonable.

Og, Caveman Superhero

Groovy.

Originally posted by JmOz

Well I wil answer this by refuting each of your points in turn but simply put, as presented there is little to no extra advantage to being able to summon Lenny over a "NY Cabby"

 

SNIP

 

HOWEVER that does not matter, as the points you spend on the basic summons should determine the value of the individual in regards to point total. In otherwords if I choose to summon a 50 point fire demeon or a 50 point cab driver the points should cost the same. There should not be a penalty for "This character does not cost much"

I think you missed my point. See below.

Originally posted by JmOz

Your right about not summoning a less competent, but she can also never summon a better one than Lenny either, it is similar to the standard effect where you curtail bad rolls by giveing up exceptional one. Note that the standard effect is a +0 advantage, not a +1.

[/b]

If you're not always getting the same character, you have no guarantees as far as the skills, abilities, personality or knowledge of the character that shows up are concerned. Yes, if you paid the points you'll always get a NY city cab driver, probably with minimum AK:NY City and PS: Cab Driver skills of 8 or less and the ability to take directions in English. After that, it's entirely up to the GM how much or little they want the character to be able to do. If on the other hand you've paid the points, you'll always know that Lenny has a given set of skills at a given level, as agreed upon when the character was written up. That isn't a standard effect for this power. For summon, it's a +1. If you don't like it, that's OK. Change it in your campaign.

Originally posted by JmOz

Ahh but here is the rub of the situation, it is not a matter of wether or not he is to weak for the pionts, it is a matter of making sure the points reflect his usefulness [/b]

His point costs do reflect his usefulness. There is only a small advantage to being able to summon Lenny compared to any other NY cab driver, and you'll only pay a few more points for it. There is a considerable advantage to being able to summon Asmodeus, Prince of Hell, as compared to getting just any Greater Devil, which is why you'll pay more points for that. The advantages are proportionately the same, which is why one is a +1 advantage on a 5 or 10 point summon and the other is a +1 advantage on a 100 or 200 point summon.

We're not going to agree on this, which is fine. You say that summoning Lenny is no more useful than summoning a different random 50 point cab driver every time she casts the spell. I say that the combination of always knowing what she's going to get together with the (GM's option) continuity of experience she'll build up with Lenny is worth the few extra points.

Originally posted by SleepyDrug

I'm curious if anyone has sorted through the various authors of this era and compiled a list of the character's most suited to participating in an LXG type campaign.

Great place to start:

http://www.geocities.com/jessnevins/vicintro.html