Rapier

Re: held action

If you want to interrupt an opponents action with your held aciton' date=' you both need to "DEX off", meaning you both make dex rolls and whoever makes it by more goes first. But if your actions are using your EGO then you have to "EGO off". It can also be mixed if you are attacking on your EGO and the opponent is attacking on his DEX.[/quote']

Technically correct. However, I would usually let the Dispel go off first without the DEX Off. The only hinge would be WHY the character held on action. I don't let characters take "open held actions." The longest you can hold an open action is until the end of the phase.

 

Player: I'm holding my action.

GM: For?

Player: Um, because I want to see what happens next.

GM: No. You can only hold for a specific sequence of events.

Player: Ok, I am holding to fire a magic blast until they Evil Wizard Guy pokes his head around the corner.

GM: Good enough.

GM: Wizard #2, casts a fireball at you.

Player: I Dispel with my held action.

GM: No you don't.

 

I think it add's a bit more spice to the combat and a touch of realism. It also works around those players who try to "work the system" by holding an action until a phase when its convenient (the old "I take my held action at the beginning of Phase 1 because that way noone else gets an action"). I also frown on Haymakers launched in Phase 12. The system should not drive a character's actions, it should be the other way around.

Re: GM's "rights"

Where does the gm's rights to alter matters involving a PC end in your opinion? Can the gm ask for stat alteration? How about changing and deciding about aspects of the character's background that are left undefined? Or defined things? (Ah' date=' you just thought you were a mutant, you're actually a clone with implanted memories!)? WOuld you as a player be angered by something like that or find it exciting?[/quote']

I'm a tinkerer. However, I don't think I've ever really altered a stat. I require a week before game night to approve a new character (they get it back within 36 hours and it then gives us a couple rounds of back and forth to work anything out). I very frequently make suggestions:

 

- You state in the history that he has a PhD in Particle Physics (but he has no PhD Perk, nor does he have a SS).

 

- Your history states the character is a super model but she has a COM of 10? That's plain jane, this needs upping.

 

- You have Acrobatics skill...might want to add Breakfall too.

 

The thing I most often change/disallow is backstory. There is nothing worse than a character's backstory forcing me to rewrite major campaign aspects, so I don't allow it. Noone can be an alien or subhuman without prior approval, because I have to incorporate MolePeople into the campaign. If they are already there, I sometimes let it go...it all depends on how involved the history is (King of the Mole People would be a definite "no").

 

Unless the character has some weird power constuct, I just give the character sheet a quick once over, make some suggestions and move on. The character's history is more important for us, and the players know that I go over them fairly well. I need to use the characters backstory for plot hooks etc and they need to fit within the campaign. I can only think of half a dozen times in the past 14 years when I have flat out put the kabosh on an entire backstory.

Re: New To Hero: Character Advancement

1 XP is a little low, but not tragically so. Maybe there is something you are missing with your character that could free up some points. If you got HD you should post your character, maybe there is something we can see that will help out.

Does everyone get only 1 XP? THAT would seem more strange than anything. It's Socialist Roleplaying! From each according to his ability, to each 1 XP.

Re: Does your Team have a Charter?

Doing a standard Internet search' date=' I found the Avengers' Charter and it got me to thinking, does your PC group use or have a charter for their team? Ever write one up? Or is it just assumed that it's 'there'?

They don't have an actual charter per se. We have two main campaigns running (there is an occasional trip into a side FH campaign but that is infrequent). In the champions campaign the Heroes are part of the New Texas Rangers. They are an arm of law enforcement and thus share the charter of the organisation, in short, To Protect the Peace and Foster Justice.

The second campaign is a Hero level (similar to a Chill setting). The heroes were recruited by the Circle of 12 (a group of magical powerhouses that needed some lower power muscle) to help protect the realms from marauding magic and those that woud upset the natural balance. Actually thats pretty close to their charter.

Having spent more years than I care to remember as a part of Corporate America , I have come to the realisation that Charters are overrated. The only reason a charter is necessary is to concretely define a set of principles that are otherwise unclear. If your UN Rep tells you to go beat up the Evil Echelon, you might check their charter if you had never heard of them before...just as on opening bit to figure out their greater goals. Charters really have no effect or impact on day-to-day activity.

Re: More weird yet useful mini stuff for Champions and HERO

One of the most useful things I have found to use for any role playing game is Jenga blocks...they make great walls' date=' columns or any other structure you need[/quote']

FINALLY!! A decent used for the blasted game. Course, it might work lots better if we didn't play it while we were drinking. They should put that on the label.

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

Are you guys STILL arguing?

Can you just agree to disagree? Obviously everyone has very strong feelings on this matter and this thread has darn near degenerated into

"Does so"

"Does not"

"Does so"

ad nauseum.

Re: How would you do this concept?

Strobe

Player:

Total Character Cost: 350

Disadvantage Points: 150

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Re: How would you do this concept?

Starlight

Player:

Total Character Cost: 350

Disadvantage Points: 150

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Re: How would you do this concept?

I've been converting YEARS of heros from WP/Spreadsheets into Hero Designer. I just finished a HUUUUUUUGE batch of light people.

Notice the common theme in powers:

Starbright

Player:

Total Character Cost: 282

Disadvantage Points: 150

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Re: DEX Averages

Strongly agree with this aproach - and Speed tends to get artificially inflated too. Usually only MAs and speedsters break the human normal barrier. Even at speed 4 you are acting twice as fast as a normal human.

I'm roughly new to Hero (circa 1991), so I don't have quite the history with the system of some of y'alls. When I started playing the slowest brick had a DEX of 18...and it was REALLY, REALLY low.

I guess I just kind of went with it all these years. All of our characters tend to dump a LOT of points into DEX. Recently, we semi-retired our Champions campaign and moved to Hero (a Buffy the Vampire Hero kind of game). I was really surprised by what we found. The fastest character has a SPD of 5 and a DEX of 26. Most SPDs are 3 and DEXs around 15 - 18. The big surprise was that it didn't seem to affect our combats at all. We hit just as often.

I mean, it makes sense, like some have stated...if you move the whole range (for heroes and villains) from Hero DEX 23, Villain DEX 25 to Hero DEX 15, Villain DEX 17...the Hit Rolls are the same.

It would take some real concerted effort at this point to move the Champs characters but I see a real merit in lowering the average DEX of characters (both PCs and NPCs) across the campaign. It certainly would free up a lot more points for skills etc.

Re: Shapeshifting

Now' date=' with all due respect Rapier, this sounds like an example of the point I made earlier. People are getting hung up on the name "Shape Shift" upper-case because they think that with that name it has to work a particular way. IOW it has to have a particular SFX, a body physically altering into something else. To me that's an approach that runs counterintuitively to the HERO System, where you start with the effect you want and then find a Power that suits it mechanically. It reminds me of the people who expect a character executing a Block Maneuver to be physically injured against a blow that's vastly stronger than they are, because the word "Block" conjures up the image of physically interposing a body part in the way of the blow... when all Block means [i']in game[/i] is a set of combat mechanics which can look however you think is appropriate: redirecting, stepping aside etc.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I for one like the flexibility of the new Shape Shift to fit whatever concept I want. That said, perhaps I might suggest a compromise for people (like Rapier) who want Shape Shift to be body alteration that covers particular Sense Groups, and leave the rest to SFX: how about paying the cost for Shape Shift to the number of Sense Groups you think should be covered - perhaps with specific Groups varying depending on SFX - and then declaring that that is the cost of Shape Shift for anyone in your campaign who wants to buy it? You can then Limit the Shape Shift in whatever way you think is appropriate for a given Power construct. That would also make it easier to port such characters from your campaign into another which may not use the same house rule.

 

As always, YMMV.

Oh suuuuuuure. Go ahead with logic and all making sense and shit. Sheesh. Where do you think YOU are?

Yeah I do get a bit hung up on the name. Mostly because I just can't understand the reasoning behind the new definition. I haven't even, yet, really seen a character with shape shift (lower case) that doesn't work with "my definition" of Shape Shift.

A fair portion of my "freakin-out-ness" also deals with the fact that one of my players recently became a metamorph demon (don't ask...it involves an amulet, a curse and a failed curse removal). We built him with Shape Shift. The rules are so outlandish and difficult for me to understand that I am stuck in the unenviable position of not knowing how the power works. I've got no foundation for any rulings. I don't mind punting with a ruling...but this is a bit beyond my comfort zone (kind of like GMing a game system you don't really know).

I'm also wondering if maybe Shape Shift isn't the power I want. We added a small MP and VPP to simulate Shifted effects (claws, wings, etc). Ahhhh me. What to do, what to do.

Re: Is this a good idea?: Killing heroes

Not the PCs, but maybe to help show just /how dangerous/ some villains and organizations are in the Champs Universe (or your own), deliberatly making up a hero or three who get on the bad side of VIPER or Destroyer, make some DUMB mistakes, survive long enough to have some history with the PCs -- and then get killed in horrid fashion.

 

Just to help get the idea across that these people are truly as dangerous as shown in their soucebooks. And maybe so the PCs won't do anything too recklessly stupid (and get a reason to personally dislike the villains).

 

Good idea, bad idea, or what?

Well, we've been playing a long time. After a couple years (sometimes only a couple months) we tend to get tired of playing the same character. In cases like this the player and I discuss things and decide on an exit strategy. Sometimes the hero goes to join another super team/moves away, sometimes they retire, sometimes they lose their powers, sometimes they die.

I have also killed off players, not deliberately. When we were getting close to the close of the Champs campaign, Iconic Knight threw himself in front of a plasma cannon. His theory was that the plasma cannon would vent its fire on him and not destroy the Dallas/FW Megaplex. I should have had his sacrifice in vain. I mean, his DEF/BODY wouldn't even change the colour on the plasma blast. I had intended for the heroes to just take out the power supply/pull the plug. In this case I couldn't really get around it. IK made the decision to stand in front of the cannon. It would be wrong of me to cheat him out of his noble sacrifice.

I've also killed characters off for REALLY stupid things...but that is pretty rare. If you egg on Dr Destroyer and call him a pansy...you got to expect to take a lot of damage. (Sorry, Chad. I know I said I wouldn't mention it...but I couldn't resist!!)

Re: Shapeshifting

I'm still unclear how a touch only shapeshift would work: and that is my problem with the power as written. I'm an experienced player, reasonably imaginative and flexible. Liked the new shapeshift in principle when I bought FRED. Then I played it, and it just seemed...difficult...unnecessarily so.

 

I mean it can do so much more than just changing your shape: you can change your pheremonal signature to throw bloodhounds off the scent, but that didn't feel like it should necessarily be in a shapeshift power.

 

I'd like a power that did what it said on the box, and whilst I'm all for appropriate rationalisation, maybe another power that dealt with fooling senses. Despite my earlier rant about images being more useful, they can't so the pheremone thing - it would be prohibitively expensive to make it persistent and uncontrolled, whereas, presumably, once a scent trail has been laid down it stays that way permanently (or does it shange back to your normal scent too, when you do...) I AM SO CONFUSED.

 

And that is my objection to this. Whilst you can make it work, it is not intuitive. If HERO hets slated it is becsue it is difficult to use. This power really does not help.

I think Shape Shift is a great abberation for Hero. It is a power that seems to, almost universally, cause a great deal of head scratching. It asks more questions than it answers and makes any constructs with it extremely open-ended, open to interpretation and confusing.

I would like to see SS modelled something more like it was in the BBB (with costs approximately in the same neighbourhood as Desol):

5pts: Cosmetic Shift a single nontargeting sense (+5 pt adder for a sense group)

10pts: Improved Cosmetic Shift a single targeting sense (+5 pt adder for a sense group)

40pts: Shape Shift (touch, hearing and sight groups)

Now, I just made the points up off the top of my head. But I figured SS is about the same level of power as Desol. It would also allow those instances where you want to purchase an additional sense (eg smell).

If I change my shape (vs touch) that means my physical form can be a snake. My body has the feel of a snake, dimensions of a snake (albeit a very large snake) and moves like a snake (at least I attempt to, providing my natural movement powers). Now, how can movement as per slithering not SOUND like slithering against the floor? How can my form not LOOK like a snake?

Yes, there are isolated instances where a single sense shape shift might be appropriate...but these should be limited to specific sense groups (eg smell) and/or be limited to a lesser version of the power (shape shift with lower case). Shape Shift (with uppercase) covers three default groups (sight, hearing and touch) and do just what the name of the power suggests. Truth in advertising, my good man, truth in advertising.

Re: Transformation trouble

if you do eat the Belgian Waffle' date=' what happens to Grond when he does 'heal'...messy...[/quote']

Boy would the folks at the waste reclamation plant (the poo factory, as we called it when I was little) be surprised.

 

Imagine the taunting the next time you ran into Grond:

 

(Sniff sniff)...do you smell something?

Hey, Poopy!

Whats green and smell like shit?

 

And we haven't even started on the waffleness yet!!

Re: DEX Averages

Just out of curiosity, in your game(s), what is a typical DEX score for the major archetypes of

Brick

Martial Artist

Speedster

Energy Projector?

 

(I know there are other archetypes, but I consider those the big 4.)

Rounded to the nearest whole number:

Brick: 19

MA: 25

Speedster: 32

EP: 28

Re: Favorite Rules of "X"

I've tossed out all my maxes long ago. You want 80 DEF? Go for it. I let the points even it out. About the only thing I do is check the character over for concept, make some rulings on specific power constructs and offer some guidance with skills/stats/powers that the player may have overlooked.

When all characters are based around the same points, you tend to end up with characters that are fairly balanced. If someone pumps all their points into combat stats/abilities, they are all but useless out of combat...and the reverse holds true.

Plus, by not defining ceilings players are not driven to max those ceilings whenever possible. Getting rid of all the Rules of X has greatly improved our gaming.

Re: Shapeshifting

Which is my fundamental dislike of the new structure for Shape Shift (my appologies to Emerged and others that like the new structure).

 

I like the added granularity, and to some extent basing it some what on the senses make sense. It just adds in a bunch of strange issues to the game. Now Shape Shift isn't really a body affecting power anymore. It is a sense affecting power. Now, if as the FAQ states (presumably this will be part of 5ER) shape shift vs. touch can be assumed to affect some radar, some sonar and some spatial awareness does this mean a Darkness vs. Touch can affect some of them too? If not, why not?

THATS IT!! Gadzooks. I haven't been able, up to now, to quantify what was bugging me about FREd Shape Shift. This is it exactly. You aren't changing shape so much as you are changing how you are perceived. It went from being a Transform (BBB) to Images (FREd).

Now I have to think about how that effects things.

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

A good example would be pro football players' date=' particularly linebackers. These are heavily-muscled and quick men. [/quote']

See, this is where we run into issues. How do you define "quick?" What is the SPD of your average RL linebacker? What is his DEX? How much Running does he have?

 

Take your typical Ultimate Fighting Championship guy. What is his SPD, DEX and Running?

 

Don't forget END, over time END is very important, as is REC. Someone with more END can run further over time.

 

Its all very subjective.

Re: Possession

I'm very pleased for you, and, yes we can tell that you are pleased with yourself. Sounds like a fun and challenging game.

 

One question: how do you handle range? Say The Evictor, or whatever he is called possesses Shirley Strange, then steps through a teleport gate to the other side of the country to commit an atrocity of some sort. In the ensuing battle he decides to flit out and leave Shirley to her fate. Not quite sure how your mechanic works, but it seems that he returns if KO'd ...which I would say was an advantage, BTW. His mind is then travelling maybe a thousand miles or more. For villains and plot devices, no problem. For players...

 

Obviously you are outside of your transform range and have no LOS. You might need some sort of specialised Mind Link or even Mind Scan to get home again.

I calculated the range just like you do any regular power (5" per AP, in this case he gets just over a mile in range).

The character has a moderate amount of Mind Scan. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle him getting KOd yet. I'm going to have to give it some thought. Snapping back to your body does seem like an advantage. It also adds some difficulty if he is "dispossessed" when outside the range of his body. But then again, knowing he has a limit I don't think he would often allow himself to get close to his max range (if he can avoid it). Although, it being a villain I don't really need to worry (strictly speaking) about how he gets back to his body. But it may become important for the heroes to stop him. I'm definately gonna have to give it some thought.

Any ideas?

Re: Shapeshifting

Imitation shapeshifting still allows a PER roll for people who know the character well at -3. This would cost 9 points in images (-3 to PER roll). You automatically get to copystuff with an INT roll. Shapeshift is not 'perfect', but I accept that there are disadvantages to images. Can you accept that this is (more than) balanced by it's increased utility. Range: you can throw your voice, or make it appear that a team mate is doing a sneak attack - then do one yourself. The power can emulate darkness in some ways, especially effective if you buy personal immunity: put a wall in front of you then punch through it. Lots of other stuff: you can look like Dan Rather a significant part of the time. Who's going to spot that you are fake,and if they do, isn't that goingt o convince them you are the original?

 

Invisibility is a great espionage tool, more useful in some situations, less so in others than shapeshift. That is pretty rare in comics (characters you can not see are not interesting to watch). It is similarly priced and has far greater effect in combat.

 

The other well made point is that the price reflects comic book reality/rareness. I would be persuaded if this carried through to other powers, but dare I point at transform? Not a very common power in comics. Cheap for what it does. In fact if you had two characters with 5 points of cosmetic transform in the party you could have them make each other look exactly like Dan Rather. For this reason I can not accept that it is the design philosophy to keep shapeshifters rare. You can do that in any event by not building/allowing them very often, you don't need a rules mechanic.

 

Finally whilst I agree that they are great for role playing certain scenarios, you only really get to do that a great deal if you are playing solo. A group won't want to wait around whilst Proteus infiltrates VIPER, uncovers the plot and sets demolition charges around the doomsday device, so, in practice, you are only going to get to use the powers in limited ways, like fooling a guard to get the rest of the group in.

Well thought and well argued. Personally, I would never play a shape shifter. Just not my particular cup of tea. The shapeshifter I have in my group has just picked up his shapeshifting power, so I'm looking forward to him using it a bit more.

Re: Telekinetic Martial Arts.

I would rule that you would have to use ranged martial maneuvers' date=' which are less valuable in general than regular maneuvers.[/quote']

Oh, I don't know. After all, TK is the power for STR at range. I'm not sure what I would rule...it will take some further thought. At this point I'm about split 50/50.

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

Wha?

 

 

Dude, and/or before posting =

I can kind of understand where he is coming from. I mean a single recovery might let you hang around for another round. A 10 REC will give you 10 END (which is pretty juicy...there have been times in a drawn out combat where I had to choose between taking a full recovery or knocking myself unconscious) but the 10 STUN...chances are you are going to take more than 10 STUN in a single attack.

If most of your combats are short and quick, a good REC doesn't gain you much of anything. His opinion on the value of REC is just as valid as anyone else's opinion.

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

In most cases' date=' If I'm going to a 'group power source' for a multi-setting weapon (like, say, a Phaser), I'm probably just going to give it an END Reserve.[/quote']

That's what I usually do too. Lately I've swung over to that construct than using charges. It seems to work a little more concept smoothly in my mind...and there have been occassions when on an extended adventure someone wants to recharge their Laser. I can pop a limitation on the END Reserve Recovery (requires external power source). It makes it much easier for the player to determine (and me) how long it takes to charge the thing.

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

Well yes' date=' this is The Hero System, so things do tend to come down to issues of cost and whether cost properly represents relative value.[/quote']

Yeah. I was kind of frustrated. Arguing in the MA is Overpriced thread and someone keeps trying to prove that Bricks are better/more powerful/better constructs than MAs because bricks get extra PD, Leaping etc for their STR. But thats another thread....

 

Anyway: I agree that powers and equipment should be built in a manner so as to best represent the special effects. What I hope you might have inferred from my first message in this thread is that I think the costs which the official rules apply to Charges on a Multipower Reserve and/or Charges on Multipower Slots don't properly represent the relative value of the things which, in game terms, they emulate.

 

Here are two simple builds for an Archer's bow and arrows:

 

Example A

30 60-point Multipower Reserve, OIF Bow (-1/2), 12 Charges (-1/4), Must allocate the 12 Charges among the available arrow types and can only change that allocation "at base" (-1/4)

3 u4d6 RKA, OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u2 1/2d6 RKA, AP (+1/2), OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u12d6 EB, OAF Arrow (-1)

3 u6d6 Entangle, OAF Arrow (-1)

 

Example B

30 60-point Multipower Reserve, OIF Bow (-1/2), Some other Limitation - it doesn't matter exactly what it is as long as the value is (-1/2)

3 u4d6 RKA, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u2 1/2d6 RKA, AP (+1/2), OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u12d6 EB, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

3 u6d6 Entangle, OAF Arrow (-1), 16 Charges (-0)

 

These are both reasonable ways of building a super-archer's bow and arrows but Example B is far better with more shots per slot than Example A has for the entire Multipower. Yet the cost is the same for both.

I agree with the constructs completely. Both are totally valid and acceptable. However, the -1/2 mystery limitation on Example B is also the extra point I'm trying to make. That mystery limitation makes any comparison between A and B pointless. They are not the same constructs. If you remove the mystery limitation, the costs are not the same.

 

I don't have HD on this computer and not up to the math right now (darned allergies). If you remove the -1/4 from A and the -1/2 from B then you can compare the relative values of the constructs.

 

In the case of Example A (as above), I would disallow it without the extra -1/4. IMO the actual charges belong on the slots. Trying to purchase charges on the slots (without limiting it to a pre-selected number of charges) seems to be a cheese-around for evenly splitting the charges between the slots.

 

Yes, there is still going to be a price-differential. However, since the examples provide different effects/results that is all hunkey dorey.

 

There are also campaign considerations. We ran into this in my old skool DnD days. 1 guy running around with 4 spears, 3 swords, a mace, 5 daggers, a 10' long blowgun, a lance and 3 handaxes. What, is he draggin a wagon behind him? Some archer comes into my game with 128 arrows on his person, he is REALLY gonna have to dance quick to rationalise it.

 

If you just don't allow Charges (neither as a Limitation nor as an Advantage) on Multipower Reserves, how will you represent, say, a ray gun with 32 shots but with 6 different settings? Without Charges on the Reserve, you can get a certain number of shots per setting, but not a total number of shots without regard to the setting used for each shot.

I have no problem whatsoever with charges on an MP. The RayGun example is the proto-typical charges on the MP power. Its even juicier if you use some of the extra Charge attributes that is in on of the DH articles. There is one in there that lists costs for Slot Uses 2 Charges.

 

I completely understand you pointing out that there is a cost advantage on Charging MP and Charging Slots. However, I believe that concept will trump any such comparison (as per the 128 arrows above).

Re: Charges on a Multipower's Reserve

To play devil's advocate:

 

An archer might have 32 charges that are not predetermined* representing what he can fit in the quiver

 

* or he may have to decide what he wants before he goes out, but can change everytime he is at home: 8 Glue's, 4 Fog's, 16 Electro, and 4 Broadheads

Well, I didn't say it was impossible, nor that I hadn't done something similar in the past. I just said that it was the rarity. All concepts fall very nicely into either "Charges on the Slots" variety or the "Charges on the Reserve" variety. There are some cases (as you post above) where there is a little wiggle room in where the charges are applied but, again, its a rarity.

When I was writing my post, I thought of exactly the situation you offer...the archer can only fit 32 arrows so predetermines how many of each type he is bringing with him. Although I'd probably ask the character to take another -1/4 (maybe even a -0) must determine MP charges before play.

Actually an additional -1/4 would be a good idea. After all, it does remove some flexibility and usefullness of the MP. Neato.