Wolf

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

I was comparing Hero in general to D&D 3.5 in general. If you want to throw house rules to make the experience better for yourself' date=' then that's fine. It does become very awkward though, to compare D&D base rules to your house rules.[/quote']

The only house-rule I mentioned was the ignoring the "overcoming and obstacle" with D&D rules. Hero is based on modeling what you want... There are no rules for drowning, suffocation, etc. there is a suggestion for falling, but again, that's based in the core concepts, so we can model whatever we want and both call it core and house-rules, but since it's done within preview of the rules, then it's not a "true" house-rule, because nothing is being changed and the system is being followed.

In other words, do to the "hard lined" nature of D&D and the "table for everything" mentality, then it's very easy to have "house-rules," Whereas in Hero it's a much more slippery monster, because the core concept is that you model what you feel is appropriate, so again, the entire game is really made up of a structured "house-rule" format.

 

I think you're playing with the wrong crowd. Every DM I've seen has been pleased if a player's creativity allowed them to bypass an encounter. Then again' date=' I usually play with roleplayers rather than hack and slashers.[/quote']

Here, I think we agree. My old group back home was awesome to play with. It was only after I made it to Arizona, and found that the D&D books were to be taken as literally as a pentecostal priest reading the book of David, and hose rules were abhorrent. The gaming culture has grown out from miniatures (Warhammer is like a religion in most stores) and with that you get folks who view D&D more as a personal level miniature gaming event, than a story based combat engine... so there are some issues with the new gamers out here.

 

 

First of all' date=' your comparing your house rules to the D&D base rules. A fairer comparision would be if you compared your house rules to what you would house rule a fall in D&D if you used that system. Second of all, your cap in Def is 10 which means the average fall will do 0 Body to someone at the cap. Even someone with 7 Def only takes 3 on average, which means they've probably taken about the same percentage of their hits as a medium level fighter in D&D falling 100 feet.[/quote']

Again, not house rules, In hero I'm simply mimicking what a fall does... as the system asks you to do... quite plainly actually (you can put on whatever armor, modern through ancient, and I guarantee you still won't want to take a 100' dive into pavement).

I said my Cap was 10, not that that's what most folks would have. In my games 10d6 would avg end up in about 5 body, and against a 10-15 body person, that's pretty nasty. Not to mention all the stun they'd end up taking... in which, they would be pretty shaken up (possibly even con-stunned), and they would NOT be at peak fighting condition, as they would in D&D... and even that 3 body, in Hero (not counting healing in either system) would take much longer than a comparable amount in D&D to heal, making it that much more threatening.

 

 

I don't believe that a base CV of 6 represents a 20th level character very well. Part of the problem is the terms we're using. Your definition of "Heroic Scale" probably refers to lower than 10th level characters in D&D. There's no way that a 20th level wizard is any way less than a Super in power level.

I actually believe that the whole gamut of D&D runs in the Heroic Scale, up to 30+ levels. then you transfer to a Superheroic scale, and are finally challenging gods and what-not.

 

Superheroic vs Heroic represent a way in which characters interact with the system (knockback vs knockdown for example, ways in which push is used, there are more) there are suggestions on what points to use for each, but you can have a heroic scale game using 500 or even 10,000 points if you wanted to, and you can have superheroic games using 100 or even 50 points (though it's less entertaining going in that direction, it's none the less, possible).

 

With a 6 CV, a buff of +3 OCV for melee fighting, and 6 CSL's in Bastard sword you can model a fighter who can have a 12 OCV with his bastard sword, and a +1d6KA on his swings with it... all broken down propperly to the focuses in his training.

If he picks up a machine gun that was mysteriously transported, it all goes back to his base CV then subtracted by using a weapon he's unfamiliar with (itsn't it something like -2 or -3, haven't read those rules in a bit). So it models the entire situation pretty darn well.

It even mimics the "power attack" option as he takes a hit, down to 9 OCV with the sword to get a +2d6KA damage, or even buffs his OCV to a bloody 15 if he puts nothing additional into damage from the CSL's... again, I think that mimics a high level fighter pretty darn well... you can even naked advantage an autofire on there to represent a rapid attack that you get from D&D high level fighters.

 

Under that power build, there is no reason to assume that a mage has a high CV with "any weapon he/she picks up" (4CV, plus 5 OCV with combat spells, plus 4CSL's with "fire-magic" I think makes a pretty convincing mage, though I'd agree not such a good "combat mage" specifically. But if he picks up that sword, there is no way it's very functional for him, even if he does have a prof.) But that's how I generate characters for my game, not house-rule, just my way of doing Hero, all by the rules.

 

 

Shields throughout the life of Hero System have been build as +DCV.

Again, those are suggestions, and in no way represent the totality of the system. from the beginning of the "generic" aspect of Hero, it's a build what you see, this is how we would do it, but feel free to make what you need with these tools. I've never used a Hero specific world, so that's why I've never seen it that way. Heck before 5th edition I didn't even know there were any books beyond Dark champions 4th ed, Champions hard-bound, and Ninja Hero... I got those books in the "old" section of a store, and that's all they had, it was the only gaming store in the area, and they closed a few weeks after I got my Champions books... that was like, '96. So yah, I may be "out of the loop" but that doesn't make my build a House Rule, it just makes it how I build that particular thing in Hero.

 

 

D&D 1 and 2 never scaled well. With most armor classes maxed at about -10 or so' date=' a high level fighter would hit everytime unless he rolled a 1. With the current system, you can scale a monster as high as you want in order to challenge a party.[/quote']

1&2 scaled wonderfully, I don't know how you came up with 1...

AC did top out at -10, and a fighter at 20 (without an insane strength, remember you didn't start getting buffs to things until after a stat of 16, and I think for str that only gave you damage, but no to-hit buff... so looking at it your average fighter (and remember, magic items really didn't go above +4 unless you were a paladin or had a specific hammer).

To hit= thac-o (20) minus AC (-10)= 10 minus 4 (for your plus weapon) 6+ to hit.

Now if your a strait fighter you "may" have specialized, and that can modify, along with higher str... And I'll admit that's pretty good, but still, your a fighter... No one else has it that easy in this edition.

 

Especially helmets which were usually angled to deflect a blow.

Again we agree, it's really only modern personal armor that's all about absorption... though there was padding in historical armor, that was mainly to protect the person wearing the armor from the armor itself during daily ware.

 

 

I think you're quibbling. A 500 pt character is going to be far more powerful than a 100 pt character unless you're deliberately trying to make it not so, or unless you're trying to munchkin the 100 pt character. And if you're going that route, than a higher level D&D character who chooses suboptimal feats and character classes and has low ability scores can definitely be weaker than a lower level character who optimizes his feats, prestige classes, and has high ability scores.

 

And I also must reiterate that I believe a 20th level wizard is far closer to a Supers character than a Heroic character.

A 500 or 10,000 point character still has to abide by your campaign limits... I set my stats at 20, double cost for up to 30 (admittedly this is a house rule, and is dealt with in a side bar in 6th edition). My Active point limit is at about 60, and my CVs stop at 8, my Dice cap is at 15, etc... the points put into the character don't matter in terms of what limits your GM puts on things.

 

And that's what I'm referring to. In terms of "the max," in certain things you can reach it quickly, but the breadth of the two characters... options, skills, etc. is much different. The 100 point character is far more focused than the 500 point character.

 

The Harbinger of Justice is a perfect example, he's got an immense amount of points, but blow for blow there are quite a few characters in Champions who can wipe the floor with him, and most are under his point total by a good measure. That's all I'm saying with that statement.

 

 

Perhaps at low levels. If he thinks that's the case at 10+ level' date=' I have to seriously wonder if he has ever played the game at higher levels.[/quote']

It's taken me long enough to reply, he's already probably done it.. .

 

 

Yep. Everything in the end boils down to personal preference.

Again, very much in agreement. I hope you take this as me speaking in conversational levels, I'm in no way meaning to be argumentative with these posts, I understand at it's core it's one of those, my opinion vs yours and I don't (in anyway) want you to think that I undervalue that specific thing, I think you probably have your own experiences and preferences that have led to you gaming and viewing your games as richly rewarding for you, much as mine have for me, otherwise, how would we still be able to do this as older than highschooler aged folks... lol. And in the end, we learn something of the community in the end... maybe even get a glimpse of a different perspective.

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

Actually, I know someone (who might even be reading this right now) who most definitely thinks that 3.5 wizards are severely underpowered, even as they stand.

 

 

Lol, thx Wolf

Hey, I didn't call you out... you did that, LOL.

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

Not to jump on you here Gary, but I have some responses to a few of these. Again, I know much of this is personal preference, and for the most part to each their own...

You don't have to kill stuff. Just defeat the challenge. A craftsman's challenge will obviously be different from a fighter's.

This one I've seen ignored by most of the games that I've gotten in on in 3rd ed. Most of the kids who have started gaming with 3.x think that it's a stupid rule that you can somehow "get over" on a fight by trying to navigate through the encounter.

I even had a fighter at one point, who went through his entire first "introductory adventure" getting around folks, and overcoming the challenges, but never once did I roll to attack, or have to declare my AC. I was told that I got no XP but that it was an entertaining game. I brought up the "just defeat the challenge" argument, and was told that it was a rule that "no one pays attention to" and promotes playing the game wrong. So far, the people who I know who pay attention to that are in the extreme minority.

You can do the same thing with a respectable pointed Hero character. 100 ft is about 10D6 damage' date=' and any respectable Hero character with decent PD will take little if any Body.[/quote']

For Supers, sure. However in any Heroic scale Game I run, from 40- 500 points, if someone can survive a 100 foot fall with "little to no Body" then I'm doing something wrong as a GM. I usually cap the defenses (personal, Fall is a NND that doesn't matter if you've got full plate on, you're still squishy when it comes to gravity) around 10 (meaning most folk have around a 5-7), and don't much let it go higher than that for a Heroic level thing.

 

 

Did you ever read Glen Cook's Black Company series? The Lady was able to master an exotic weapon (the Rumel) with absolutely no prior training. 20th level magic users are epic characters who pretty much outclass 5th level characters at everything. It's like in Hero where someone with base 10 OCV is better than someone with a base 5 OCV even in an unfamiliar weapon.

Again, if properly built (reason from effect) then a person's "natural" CV should be at most (again for a Heroic Scale game) 6, and that's for a person who seems to be born to weld a weapon. Everything else is either focused CV (OCV bought for weapons/spells) or CSL's representing experience, and not natural talent.... IE Skills, not Stats.

 

 

Game balance. I believe Hero system shields also only provide +1 or +2 DCV for the most part. And D&D shields get much better once you throw some magic on them.

LOL, honestly, I've never seen a writeup for a shield in Hero, odd that, I kinda just realized that... Anyway, my writeup for shields are a multipower that has three slots (at least); one for DCV buff (when you want to use it as a device that deflects), one for PD/ED (when you turn the shield and use it to buffet a straight attack, and block with it), and the last one as a shield bash type attack slot). There are other slots one can gain, of course, such as the bonus to OCV (only vs. Blocks, limited Grabs cannot follow) and other such things as that... but I've never used them as a straight buff to DCV.

 

 

Armor helps quite a bit. With a 20th level fighter's progression at +20/+15/+10/+5' date=' the first 1 or 2 attacks might hit, but the armor has a very good chance at stopping the last couple of attacks.[/quote']

Yah, I agree with this for the most part... I've had decent luck with AC being pretty stacked against to-hit rolls.. I think that D&D did a huge disservice to itself when it let it's attack/defense leave a static table though. I prefer the old Thac-0, and the fact that attacks and defenses had a beginning, middle, and end point. I think it kept things much better balanced than what we've got now.

 

I also like that Hero has the same thing, but it's far more variable... but basically the 3-18 roll within the (OCV+11)-DCV keeps the same sort of boxed static table, if you will, that makes it less (though not infallible) to twinkage.

 

 

Just personal preference.

I also dig armor that absorbs, but historic armor did definately do a better job at deflecting than it did at absorbing... so it's a wash here for me...

 

 

Same in Hero. A 500 pt character is going to laugh at attacks that strike fear into 100 pt characters.

Again, that depends, you can have a 500 point character built under limitations within the Heroic scale, that still can't have DC's exceeding 9... and 100 point characters who's DC's can exceed 23, so I think it's a wild assertion to assume that every game would be like that. Sure in a supers, but much of your standard fantasy gaming isn't based on the superheroic scale.

 

 

There are feats that allow you to increase save DCs. But the fact is that a lot of the higher level spells are one shot kills' date=' so if you didn't have this progression, then spell casters would be even more lethal than they are currently. I don't think anyone in D&D is arguing that spellcasters are underpowered...[/quote']

Actually, I know someone (who might even be reading this right now) who most definitely thinks that 3.5 wizards are severely underpowered, even as they stand.

 

 

Not that D&D 3.5 isn't without flaws' date=' but a lot of the criticism is something that most game systems struggle with.[/quote']

Granted, no system is perfect, and the more expertise that a person has with a system allows him to manipulate the system better, thus some people run better games in some systems than in others can.

 

However, the reason that some folks like one system over another is because what they want to see is modeled better by that different system. I thought of all those things that wrote up there when I read your post, and so for me, the "flaws that most game systems struggle with" as you put it (if your examples above are part of that case for you) just don't seem to exist in Hero for me, because of how I used the system. Obviously, you use the system a tad different than I do, and that's fine, heck that's one of the awesome benefits of Hero; everyone can kinda "do it" a bit differently.

 

For me Hero answered much of these issues, in how you can manipulate the system... in D&D, you Can't unless you start house-ruling.. and that gets messy in 3.x just due to how bloody interconnected the rules are... you'll find something that you never thought of because you changed this rule over here, and now the whole bloody system is out of sorts... grr...

[end tiny rant, that wasn't (at least this last paragraph) aimed at Gary, and to that extreme, I wasn't intending to "aim" at Gary, just respond with my 2 copper using my thoughts.]

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

Thanks for the views and the links Wolf!

No prob, just remember that "the squeaky wheel get's the grease" and most of these threads show some pretty "verbal" reactions about certain games... there are a great deal of others on the board who haven't commented at all in any of these threads. Some of that is that they just aren't regulars, with others, they have no opinion, and others still don't care/ don't care to comment in an internet, "my opinion is more valuable than your opinion" type debate... I'm sure there are other reasons. But For the most part I have seen that many people here left D&D many ages ago, looking for "more," and found it in Hero/Champions.

I've seen a great deal of dislike aimed at Hero on RPGNet, and it seems that there are folks who think that the philosophy used to develop the 5th+ editions should have gone in a different direction, or that "generic systems are all fatally flawed." I think some of these arguments have merit, but I've found a system that I dig, and I think, again, that others on here feel similar. I've found that I would like to Understand GURPS better than I do, because I can't seem to shake Hero from my brain when I try to "get" character generation, and so I get frustrated trying to do anything with that system... yet I still prefer Hero. But I think that I'm starting to venture outside of your question, so I'll depart. Though I'll probably watch to see where this conversation goes .

-Woof.

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

As an afterthought:

Here is another one that shows how we tend to view our own beloved system, when it's critiqued.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/80564-The-Hero-System-is-bland-and-over-complicated

Edit: OR

The front lines of the "Edition Wars" witch admittedly isn't as bad as the D&D 3.5-4e war, but it was bad for how generally a positive Rep this board has...

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75997-Who-is-sticking-to-4th-or-5th-Ed-HERO

Re: How do Hero System players/GM view DnD?

This has caused issues in the past. As a whole, we have mostly played DnD, but we also feel that it's a very flawed system. The feeling goes from complete contempt through mild distain, to preference. Ragitsu even has a "Quit bashing other systems" on his sig because of several conversations he has gotten frustrated with due to some of the feelings on the board, but we all like to game, and most will play whatever, but gripe about the lack of Hero gaming they have gotten in. Others have been lucky enough that they have only played Hero for the last 20+ years. Here are some threads you can read through to see some of the sentiments... expressed, as it were.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/79642-D-amp-D-like-it-or-lump-it.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/80263-What-is-D-amp-D

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/74184-Is-Pathfinder-the-D-amp-D-Killer

I think that'll work for now. But I think it gives you an idea of how the board thinks as a whole.

Re: Steampunk - Source Material

An article from the local New Times, that seems to suggest more of an artistic angle for steampunk locally.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2010-10-28/news/steampunk-once-upon-a-past-that-never-was/

Re: Double Tap

LOL, agreed, Rep given.

Re: Double Tap

As the mechanical aspect had been pretty well covered, I was just trying to answer this part of the question:

Is this a logical "skill" for the character to acquire' date=' or a munchkinish attempt to get around the attack Active Point limit?[/quote']

 

Do I think a cop in your character's situation should be trained in a double tap, yes. Do I think every cop should be trained in a double tap (real world speaking)? Absolutely.

Re: Double Tap

Today the double tap is pretty widely used. I'm not in the cops, and my buddy who is, says that it's really kinda pitiful (considering the things they go up against) the piss poor amount of Pistol training they do in the police. That said, it's pretty easy to get a membership to a local gun club, and take a day or two a week and get yourself trained up on it.

Two things though (depending on your school of thought):

Pistols (real world thoughts, NOT movie/cinimatic theory- depending on how your game is being run) are really considered pretty last ditch, due to the shorter barrels and smaller rounds (than rifles or SMG's- and lets face it, you can now get most combat rifles about as big as an MP5 these days). The term sidearm really puts it in perspective. That said more groups (agencies/military/SWAT/etc) are training up a chopped down M-4 variant and using those for "assualt" or entry, and they use pistols as a escape tactic, or (again) last ditch.

Two- the double tap is more considered a added "stopping power" move by most. It kinda goes into the classic saying, "two in the head, you know their dead." type line of reason. So again it's more along the lines of SWAT in the civilian world, and definately has more of a place in military theory or assualt-craft than in a police man's toolbox. However, again, if the cops in your GM's world are like the ones in the movies (Die Hard series as an example) then it's very much a part of what you want to look at.

My 2 brass.

Re: Steampunk - Source Material

What I wish is that there was a Hero book that was about steampunk/clockwork. I have a game I want to run with steampunk in it' date=' but I don't want to have to convert from some other system or create it all on my own. prefab is a wonderful thing.[/quote']

 

For my steampunk game, I just put together the GURPS Western and Steampunk books... The stuff in those books really don't have enough crunch to make it un-manageable. All in all it was a decent source. But that's my 2 copper. I'd love to see a Hero based book myself.

Re: Steampunk - Source Material

I haven't listened to this yet at all, but I was poking around looking for the blue-plate special for Jack Flanders Drama... anywho, this is some snipets of "A Steampunk State of Mind" radio Drama from ZBS. I haven't heard it, but again, I've been pretty impressed with most things ZBS does, so I have faith.

http://www.zbs.org/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=65_67&products_id=402

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

So' date=' does that mean the Sun will be illuminated by light from the heavens? In addition to its self-illumination, of course.[/quote']

 

I thought about that, but then I went cross-eyed... and instead bought a beer and smiled.

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

End the cycle. Sounds good to be.

Next solution... wipe out the planet's orbit... chuck it strait into the sun... Now the Sun is the dude with the thing... Have fun getting that one out... If it still exists as we know it, it'll be there for some time before most folks can get it... then again, if the thing can survive that, then something else probably could be made that can... so on and on we go... lol.

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

Orbital strike.

Yup, nuke it from orbit, It's the only way to be sure.

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

Thanks guys, I'm going to sit down and re-read this whole section (in the book, lol) and I think I feel a lot better about the whole situation (I should have had more faith in the HERO system than I appear to have had, BAD WOLF!). And again thanks to you guys, I am much more relaxed about what's going on in-character-creation.

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

*snip* WoW' date=' HERO is not.*Snip*[/quote']

 

One of the problems (two really since I don't play any MMO's) is that the "stated" character concept is what's called a Tank-Adin, apparently it's a class, or sub-class from the WoW.

Re: Aid's to Stun/End, do you allow it?

I guess I wasn't reading it all that well, and I'm less worried in general. However (I don't have my books with me at the moment), but what is meant by "max end, not the current" So if he aids end, then the target is still at the end value that they were before the aid, and the maximum end has been raised, they just need to "rest up" to get the max? or is it that they get a boost to the current numbers that works like "temporary HP" from D&D, and gives them a pool that is first drawn from?

And when they've used this pool, if that's it, then when can they benifit from more aid, after the fade time, or after they've depleted any of it? (I thought I read that Aid has a "max Value" that the power can give equal to the max roll on the die, unless an advantage is bought, but I may be thinking of another adjustment power, or 5e).

Thanks for the help no matter guys.

I've got a player who's concept is a stalwart paladin, for our Supers game "that's going to happen" someday...

Anyway, this guy thinks to emulate a "proper fighter" he needs to secure his end so he won't have to take recoveries (as that's what weak folks do, I guess). He's also not very much a fan of having low Stun... or at least stun that can be depleted.

His main concern is that he wants to make sure all of his allies can benefit, so he's made an AID AOE (well two actually) one that aids body/Stun, and one that aids End, and put Continuous on them both, so that he has to do very little work to keep them up.

I guess what I'm asking is would you allow these builds (I'll see if I can get more specifics, I'm supposed to help him with the character this weekend, Sunday) or would you even allow the concept? It's caught under my skin, and I'm not quite sure why, it just seems like it's cheese.

I just guess there is already a mechanic to replenish Stun and End regularly, just because you feel threatened by that system, doesn't mean you have to build a way around it... or maybe my skin is just too thin. Why not just build your character with more stun/end... Now the aiding others, I'm just not sure about the auto replenish, even for the holy aura of a paladin.

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

Nancy Pelosi?

"Must spread rep..." yadida dadida.... oh, and ROTFLOL!

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

I thought of that... However, my line of logic was this. You have killed the dude with the thing, you have taken the thing, and as such you are still under the "take the thing" clause in the statement. Otherwise if you are dead, how can you take the thing in that state, there for it's further backed as an action that is not in line with the statement "kill the dude with the thing and take the thing" because you can no longer follow through with the second part. So Due to having to entirely throw away the second part of the statement if you kill yourself (both before and after killing yourself), then I should think that it is not a viable option.

Not to mention, you are going to have a great deal of people looking for you to kill you and take your thing, because you are indeed now the dude with the thing. So I should think that running and staying alive would be the only thing you'd be able to think about at the time. Not to mention, I figure if you stopped to think about it it would turn out like this, "Dude, I'm the guy with the thing, maybe I should kill my... hurk! Hey, I'm now dead, and he's got the thing!" but that is an assumption beyond the statement that was given.

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

Kill him how? Take it where? Really there is an awful lot of ambiguity in these instructions.

LOL, no, no, no, you can extrapolate quite a bit from what is given. When you have killed the dude with the thing and you take the thing, you then become the dude with the thing, and there fore must be killed, ergo you take it to a place where you won't get killed, which is unlikely because you are now the dude with the thing and must be killed. Once you are killed, then that person takes the thing, and after you are alive again you must kill the dude with the thing, then take the thing... So you see it really is as easy as, "kill the dude with the thing, and take the thing."

I love this thread, and I don't even MMO game (and yes, I know, but I really don't MMO... RPG or otherwise so yes I mean MMO).

Re: Kill the Dude with the Thing

Beyond the point, the clear explanation involves killing of the dude, and taking of the thing.... not much else to work on.

Re: I wonder how much Antique's Roadshow would appraise it for...

The first article makes it sound like a huge unfinished game of soduku...

“We know that one of Arthur’s two main battles was fought at a town referred to as the City of Legions. There were only two places with this title. One was St Albans but the location of the other has remained a mystery.”

 

The recent discovery of an amphitheatre with an execution stone and wooden memorial to Christian martyrs, has led researchers to conclude that the other location is Chester...

it just seems to me that there is a logical step missing or the information has been abbreviated by either the article or the "historians."

It's like this was the scene: "Well boys, it seems that this place has a memorial to Christian Martyrs, AND an execution stone, and we've recently found it... so that must mean that there never were any other towns in the entirety of England that fit that description, even ones that may have fallen into disrepair or dismantled shortly after their decline."

"Yes sir, that sums it up."

"Alrighty then, we've found Camelot, Print that up for the AP, I'll get my tenure yet Jerry!"

At least the second article gives a bit more leeway as to whether this is a given.

Re: Steampunk - Source Material

This is some websites from a old friend of mine:

http://www.johnnypayphone.net/blog.php

http://www.steampunkmagazine.com/ - Okay, I don't know if this is his, but he's one of the contributing authors

http://www.johnnypayphone.net/

He's a trained apprenticed Steam engine mechanic... it's pretty wild. He feels he lives the steampunk life, whatever that is... he built his own steam powered sewing machine and makes his own clothing with it.