Sean Waters

83 points:typo. Yeah, you could have 25/25 , make 15 of each resistant and that will cost you 65 points. The remaining 18 points goes on 6 Flash/Pow/Mental Defence. OR... you could have 10 RPD/RED and 12 PD/ED (hardened), then, when you know what your opponent uses as a main attack, become virtually invulnerable. The Tuneable Shields I suggested are not the most efficient build for general combat. Drop the last 3 slots and save 15 points. Split the remaining slots make half of each fixed.

MD does not provide defence unless you buy it with an advantage. That is a silly way to defend against this though: EGO (only to break out of Mental Paralysis) is cheaper, unless MD is of broad utility in your game. Mind you, 22.5 points per 1d6. What is the GM going to allow? 2 dive is 45 points, 3 is 67. You aren't allowing more than that, surely? EGO can be used for a breakout and can be pushed. 15 EGO gets you 3d6 and, if I were you, I'd push it, so 5d6: 2 rolls to get out. Then I'd spend a few points on making sure that didn't happen again.

4 pages. Just saying. I mean I use it occasionally, but if it was not there, something similar would happen anyway. It is not needed for what it is used for and it is not a good way of doing what it is used for. I do not understand your point. The thing that I like about Hero is that I can build a 300 point character and it should be roughly the same in terms of utility as another 300 pint character, given certain common assumptions. I can break the system with the best of them, but I don't because I trust in the process. OK. It matters to me. I don't just make up villains, I cost them. Maybe I'm an idiot and in the vast minority, but I'm happy here and cosy and warm.

Look, my point is this, and I think it is a good one: pretty much every reply to the 'PRE Attack Problem' is 'Well, don't do it then', in one form or another. If we are never going to use it, why have it? Just in case? Just in case of what? Just in case you forget how to GM properly?

How much would that meteor cost in CP though? A player could not afford a Dinosaur Killer Power. I'm not the sort of GM that chucks attacks at players they can not handle unless the whole plot revolves around them being defeated and captured and then escaping again (and even when that is what I have been trying to do, the PCs have often foiled me, and more power to them for doing so). Of course a GM can do whatever they want, at least until they scare off all their players, but that isn't me. Well, not all the time. My point, which I feel I have made ineffectively, is that we have rules for PRE Attacks we are never actually going to use. No sane GM is going to use a 20d6 PRE Attack on the PCs or allow the PCs to have regular access to Dinosaur Killer levels of PRE Attack either. We already have rules for Surprise in and out of combat. We are never going to drive PCs (or Villains) mad with permanent terror, unless it is part of the plot anyway. We could probably replace the whole 4 pages with 3 short paragraph: If something unusual or unexpected happens, consider having the NPCs react in a way that you had not previously considered. This might include the PCs doing particularly well, or particularly badly, or a combination of factors that you just hadn't anticipated. Outcomes might include one or more characters/NPCs missing part or all of their turn, one or more characters/NPCs gaining a small bonus (+1 or +2) or something similar. It could even be something not directly combat related, like an NPC running away, switching sides or acting out of character, for instance pushing and haymakering all their attacks. Pay particular attention to Psychological Limitations when determining how an individual reacts. If you are stuck for inspiration, roll 3d6, then decide what to do. The roll is more of a meditation than an actual guide, but has the advantage that it makes the players think you are not just making it up as you go along.

I don't want to take away the magic, but I can't remember ever having a villain pull a PRE attack on the Heroes, and that is not just when I'm GMing - you don't do that either. That is because we are nerfing PRE attacks because we recognise that we would not want to deal with the consequences of Super Heroes involuntarily running away. It would shatter our image of our characters. Equally I think most of the PRE Attacks that the Heroes pull were prompted by the GM, either you or me. Taking the magic away again, but if you get over about 6 dice the results are pretty consistent and you can more or less pre-determine the result by how many bonus dice you allow. When the players have suggested them it is usually because something unusual just happened and they got in before the GM suggested it anyway. I mean, the roll kind of was the magic to an extent, but like all magic it hid what was going on behind the scenes: the players were getting rewarded because they done good. No, fine: you've convinced me. Leave PRE Attacks in and we can game them so it doesn't seem too obvious that we are storytelling. Poof! The magic is back.

I think it is page 35 of the first book and they are called guidelines not limits, but this is Hero. 5 points in one thing is supposed to be roughly as useful as 5 points in another thing. I think I've demonstrated that PRE bucks that trend by a serious margin. Page 35 again? ...and a nice big PRE attack only needs to go off once. I made it pretty clear they were typical values for my game. Also page 35 again, and the sample superhero characters in the second book. Also I can pretty much negate most mental powers with 3 levels in EGO rolls.

I know it was a long post, but it started with: Anyway, this is not some esoteric loophole, this is a core rule that has been here since the start and clearly anticipates PRE Attacks that do hit PRE+30 or more. It is all well and good saying that I shouldn't use it - and I've been pretty clear that I don't, and for good reason, but is anyone using it? If not, what the hell is it doing taking up space in an already huge rule book? Hero combat takes long enough as it is. We don't need another free attack that everyone might as well pop off at the start of combat. Look, if everyone has 20 PRE then they get a 4d6 PRE attack, which is 14 points, average. They are going to need at least another 2 dice of bonuses to get to PRE level on a similar opponent, and then all they get is to go before the opponent which I think is of limited utility anyway, in most cases, and that is assuming all the enemies aren't doing defensive PRE attacks to cancel out even that minor advantage. You'd need 5 bonus dice to get a half phase hesitation and, if the enemy are doing the same all you've done is waste the first five minutes of the session. You'd need 12 dice, that is 8 bonus dice to get PRE +20 and that is pretty much never happening unless you are clearly so much better than the enemy that you have to wonder why the fight is in the scenario to start with. I'm trying to come up with reasoned arguments and, not having a go at you, Ninja Bear, but I'm not getting reasoned responses, I'm getting sentiment. What need do PRE attacks actually fulfil? What makes them a useful game mechanic instead of either a waste of time and energy or a completely overpowered monstrosity. No one seems to be using the damn things as they are written, we all voluntarily nerf them because we know instinctively that not doing so is a short road to madness. I simply do not see the point. They are a rule (that takes 4 pages) that, at best, fills a niche, and even then it is a niche in a corner in a room that is rarely used. I can think of many better uses for those four pages, not the least of which is making the book thinner.

I'm just not sure that people who are naturally likeable are also naturally brave or naturally terrifying, but PRE does all of those things. I think that we can be situational brave when we are dealing with things we are expecting or trained for and I think your examples demonstrate that perfectly. You are a volunteer firefighter and have run into burning buildings, but I assume that is because you have the training and expectation that you are going to do that, and the support of others in your worthy endeavour. In a RPG I'm not going to make the heroes subject to a PRE attack by a burning building to go in and save someone, because what I don't want is to describe in dramatic detail how they hesitate outside until the screams stop. You have a Psy Lim about Heights but that has nothing to do with PRE as such. Having a high PRE won't help you there, or it would not in Hero. If the mechanic was that you could voluntarily accept situational PRE attacks when confronted with heights, I'd be fine with that, because you have decided in advance that your character will react a bit randomly in that situation. Finally the Haunted House: if that were a situational PRE Attack then either everyone would run out, or your PRE was low. PRE Attacks affect everyone equally. How they react is then determined by their own PRE. I don't get the impression you would be built with a low PRE, given that you run into burning buildings. I do think PRE Attacks lack nuance and elegance. If I have a 60 INT or EGO, STR, CON, or a 30 DEX, it might be unusual, but it isn't going to break anything. If I have a 60 PRE, however... I'm not against a well thought out system for determining how characters in the game should react to certain situations, but I don't think this is is.

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks, and it is pretty much all down to game balance and effectiveness. I also don’t like the fact that it is a way for the GM to force the characters to act in a way that is not heroic. I don’t particularly care if players use it against NPCs, but it is massively aggravating if an encounter that took a couple of hours to prepare is over before the first PS12 because of a lucky roll. In any event, my players don’t build characters to take advantage of the PRE Attack rules, at least not by buying PRE at AP limits. I suspect they know how I’d feel about that. My yardstick of combat effectiveness is the Blast. If a power is significantly better than a Blast in combat (unless it is only in highly specialised and unusual circumstances) then it is overpowered to my way of thinking. In a typical superheroes game, the way we play it, you might expect a 12d6 Blast costing 60 points which costs 6 END to use and you need to succeed in a roll to hit before you can cause any effect on the target. Blast is ranged and is subject to range modifiers, affects a single target, works against normal defences and costs END. It takes a half phase action to perform and ends your phase when you use it. The only way to increase the damage output is if you either have skill levels, the use of which is a trade off with OCV and/or DCV or if you Haymaker (which costs you an extra segment and combat penalties) or Push (which costs a lot of END or have ranged Martial Arts. The latter would probably fall foul of damage caps so I’m going to ignore that one. An opponent can abort to a defensive manoeuvre to try and avoid a Blast. In our games you can expect most characters will have normal Defences in the region of 24ED&ED and typically hit on an 11 or 12. They might have 30 to 50 Stun and 20 to 25 CON. This means that they can expect an average of 18 Stun and 0 Body through Defences, causing around 10m of KB and not being enough to Stun most characters. The hit rate is between 62 and 75% and it usually takes 2 to 5 (but far more often 3 or 4) hits on target to take down an opponent, depending on tactics and other considerations. If you Push and Haymaker, you can do 18d6, which is 63 stun and 18 Body, or 39 Stun and 0 Body through Defences with 22m of KB, on average. That is enough to Stun almost any opponent and KO just under half of opponents, but leaves you at a significant temporary disadvantage and the attack still has to hit. In a one on one fight, a Pushed attack that you Haymaker could end it in one hit, but it may not, and if it does not, then you are in some trouble. Also combats are rarely one on one, more usually team on team of mega villain on team. OK. PRE attacks. For 50 points you can have PRE 60, which is cheaper than a 12d6 Blast. I could have gone for 70 PRE of the same price but, that is the same AP, so we will use that. PRE 60 gets you 12d6 PRE Attack. It costs no END. PRE Attacks affect everyone they are intended for so long as the intended target can hear and/or see the PRE Attack. There are no range modifiers and the power is effectively a large selective AoE. The attack automatically hits all the intended targets. There are no defensive manoeuvres you can abort to, to avoid a PRE attack and cover and concealment generally do not help. You can Haymaker a PRE Attack. Requires the GM to agree but what doesn’t: it is allowed on the face of it. The effect is immediate, does not allow a Breakout Roll (although the GM can optionally allow an EGO roll to partially reduce the effects, which, frankly, is the sort of weak rule there is just too much of), lasts significantly longer than most combats at higher levels of effect and takes no time and does not end your phase. This also means that you can make a PRE Attack out of your normal phase, before anyone else acts, no matter how much faster than you they are. Most of our PCs will have a PRE of 15 to 20. A PRE Attack with 60 PRE gets you 12d6, but there are usually situational modifiers. These can be positive or negative but let us assume that the attack is being used sensibly. Many Villains will have a reputation. Even a Negative Complication (Maims Opponents Defeated in Combat, say) can add to your PRE Attack. Say we get a couple of dice from that. Then there is violent actions. If someone has spent 50 points on PRE, they are probably going to use it in a tactically astute way, so maybe another couple of dice there. Then there is appropriate situation. Certainly if the villains are attacking they might get some of that. In Combat loses you a die. I think a well prepared PRE Attack will get you 2 to 4 extra dice, without being unreasonably generous, lets say 3 on average. Haymaker gets you 4 more,19 dice of effect, or an average result of 66 to 67 points of effect. Even without the Haymaker, it is 15 dice - on average 52 or 53 points of effect. Against a Hero with 20 PRE, that is over PRE + 30 Effect. PRE +30 If the total on the Presence Attack dice at least equals the target’s PRE +30, the target is cowed. He may surrender, run away, or faint. He is at 0 DCV, and will nearly always follow commands. Against a Hero with 15 PRE, you only need a slightly lucky roll to get PRE +40 (or against pretty much anyone if you allow Haymaker). PRE +40 At the GM’s option, if the total on the Presence Attack dice at least equals the target’s PRE +40, the target experiences the same combat effects as a PRE +30 attack, but the effects on his mind and/or personality are much more severe: mind-blasting horror; sanity-wrenching revelations; awe so strong it inspires fanatical devotion; fear so intense it breaks even the most hardened man. The effects last at least an hour, at that level, and may affect the character for the rest of his life, according to the rules. Cthulu generally is not that harsh to players, and they go in expecting to come out mad. The rules do allow that a target might make an EGO roll to mitigate some of the effects, but it is not clearly explained how that works and at the EGO +30 level, any EGO Roll would be at -3 (-5 at EGO +40). Again, assuming PCs to have 15 to 20 EGO, that is a roll of 12- or 13-. With the penalties, more than half the targets will fail the EGO Roll on average, so even if you don’t melt the brains of every PC, you have crippled the team as a fighting unit with one no-consequence attack. For another comparison, try building something like a PRE Attack using Mind Control and see how far you get. Now if you think that is all fair and balanced, I have a bridge I want to sell you. If any other power or ability were as powerful as this then either everyone would have it or everyone would have substantially more defences against it, but there seems to be an unspoken agreement we will autonerf it, and ignore the horror it could bring because, well, because of reasons. Probably. Oh, look – a distraction!

Batman is terrifying, but still gets attacked by thugs on a regular basis. The fact that Superman bounces bullets off his chest does not stop people shooting him with them, and they are probably the two greatest examples of PRE and Reputation amongst the Heroes of DC. Similarly, Hydra never surrender when Captain America shows up. They might say 'Oh no, it is Captain America', but they still fight him. Getting an opponent to hesitate or gaining a minor bonus for your first attack, that is fine and IIRC, your character maxed out at about 30 PRE. The problem is though that PRE Attacks are a lot nastier than that and can be absolutely monstrous while well within most campaign guidelines. I don't like using them against PCs and you and the others only use them when it seems right, because you are naturally fair and decent people. If you actually read the rules though, and apply them as intended (and by 'intended' I just mean 'allowed'), well, see below...

...no more than you'd need PRE to explain why firefighters run into a burning building when everyone else runs out. It is what they do, and what they are equipped to do. Also, because it is there, sometimes the Heroes run away too.

Lucius, it is not how I habitually use PRE attacks as I suspect you can deduce, but it is one of the consequences of PRE attacks. One of the expected consequences, right there in the rules. The fainting, not the reek of ammonia. Another is that characters have to spend more on PRE than they probably would otherwise to make sure it does not happen, not because that is how the character is envisaged, but because PRE is a defence to PRE atatcks. Just because none of the PCs have Flash Defence it does not make it unfair or inappropriate to occasionally chuck in a villain with a Flash Attack but, in my experience, players are much more sanguine about their players being blinded for a couple of segments than they are about them running away from a fight when they did not want to, because they can understand their character getting pepper sprayed, they can't understand their character acting in a cowardly manner. It can damage their relationship with their character. That means it is a mechanic that I don't like to use as a GM in case it works too well. Speaking of the mechanics of PRE Attacks, they are awful and there is really no downside to using them. By unspoken agreement in our group players don't use PRE attacks unless something spectacular has just happened, like KOing the strongest villain in a couple of phases and in that situation I'd probably just role play the rest of the villains making a break for it anyway, no mechanic needed. Moreover they don't really represent anything we see in comics or movies or any other source material. Goons rarely surrender. Doesn't make for a fun scene if it is just AmazoWoman rolling up, issuing threats and everyone moving on to the next scene. There are not any other powers in Hero that can stop a fight before it has even started. To that extent, if nothing else, it is completely unbalanced and shouldn't be there.

Drop one on the players at some point that is big enough to make them faint with fear and see how they feel about it. Describe in detail how they come back to their senses some time later in chains and urine soaked underwear. It's all fun and games when it is happening to someone else.

Everyone thinks that until something bites you. I'm with you about standard enhanced senses. Ah, Paranoia <sigh>

How about not bothering with the Desolidification and using Possession with Mind Transfer instead? Build in a Side Effect (that causes the rapid aging) and they you don't need to bother about your own body. The Shadow may have lost that long ago, or may have it locked up somewhere, but there is no real need for it to exist any more. I mean, I almost certainly would not allow a PC to have this power, but for a NPC, why not? I'm assuming here that Mind Transfer version does not have the limitations that normal Possession does, or how you would administer that if it did; which body no longer has recoveries? Do you die if your first body dies or the last one you possessed or any of them? I also do not really understand why it is a -1 limitation. It sounds better than the base power, really, and even if it does have those limitations still in place, it is probably as good. I hate and loathe the use of desolidification as suggested in the book. Say the possessed body is very tough and falls off a building. The desolid body inside either has to stop, which may well kill it, or keep going and lose contact with the possessed body, pass deep into the earth and possibly suffocate. It makes no sense. Ditto poison gas, vacuum, water, anything like that. It does not give the desolid possessing body the abilities of the possessed body and you'd need to be invisible too or it would be obvious you were inside there unless you were exactly the same size (and even then it stretches credulity). My preferred option in this sort of scenario is to use Mental Transform (to willing lackey) coupled with Clairsentience so you can see what the host body sees and Mind Link so you can hear what it hears and tell it what to do. If you want your original body to vanish, EDM to 'The Mind Plane' and make the Clairsentience and Mind Link extradimensional. That all seems far cleaner to me and does not require any weird rule interpretations and special cases.

We could rephrase it 'Cost END but only costs END to activate', then drop 'Costs END but' as that would be obvious from context.

+10 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in his general area (such as the city he’s in) +15 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in any area (see text) The text says that 'planetary' is a good upper limit.

Danger Sense can work even if the danger would not be detectable by the character's normal senses and at anything up to planetary area. It is effectively N-Ray and without range modifiers. You COULD buy other senses that did that, but good luck picking the bones out of that soup; and you don't have to, because Danger Sense. Mind you if a PC came to me with a build that included a planetary level out of combat Danger Sense they would never be seen or heard from again, and quite rightly too. Well, that or it would just be me bombarding them with constant reports about Avi in Mumbai who is about to cross the road and so is in grave danger, and Kevin in Adelaide who is, well, in Australia and so is in grave danger.

I acknowledge the point, but to me that is more 'Danger Recognition' - it is not a sense (as Hero defines it) beyond the normal senses that the character has filtered through their experience (as defined by their Skills). It is the equivalent of the old DnD "I listen at the door" - if you hear something unusual or unexpected you take more precautions. If it was not for Spiderman we would just be using Perception Rolls and not thinking twice about it.

Q1. We play a game on Monday nights over Discord. There are six of us and we usually notice pretty quickly if someone drops and we have not heard from them for a couple of minutes. You don't get any information about the person on the other end of the line other than what they say or "hear". I'd treat it like a landline conversation where the other party has hit the mute button, probably. OTOH, you can only establish links with minds and, arguably, someone who is dead does not have one any more. I think it is probably up to you to make a judgement call, but if it was me, if it was a one to one link you would know that it had dropped as if they had hung up, but not why. If it was a multi-person link, you would have to make occasional INT rolls to realise that someone was no longer participating, but if you specifically spoke to that one person (as opposed to the group) it would be obvious they were not there any more, but, again you would not know why. The rule is Link A character can voluntarily leave a Mind Link as a Zero Phase Action (just like deactivating any power). When you die, your powers deactivate. Q2. Mind Link is a Party Line but you can speak to a other single individual without anyone else hearing with an EGO roll requiring a half phase action. While you are doing this you will be on mute to the rest, so they may notice you have dropped as above. When you are speaking one to one I'd rule you can only hear one to one too. If the other party does not want a one to one conversation they can decline it, in which case you drop from the party line until you stop trying to connect one to one. Q3. Being point-to-point all the time sounds less useful than being party all the time so I would say it was a -0 limitation. You would need to make an EGO roll to speak to (and hear) the group with this version. Depending on how you read the rules you COULD set up multiple single person Mind Links - normally you can run multiple versions of a constant power at the same time. The rules do say A character can usually only maintain a Mind Link with one person at a time (even if he can establish the Link with anyone in a group). He can double the number of minds for every +5 points but I take that to mean that they can only maintain a link with a single mind per Mind Link in operation (without an adder) not that they can not establish multiple simultaneous mind links. There is no adder for the number of Mind Links you can run simultaneously

Hmm. That helps. Also Torg <sigh> There are some genres in which guns are largely useless against central characters. The Matrix has been mentioned, but you could also bring up Equilibrium or even Star Wars - Jedi rarely have to worry about blaster bolts. Still, there is more than one way to remove the epidermis of a feline. I would be disinclined to cap OCV for firearms per se but might cap OCV and DCV built without campaign Talents for everyone. I might do is make DCV against firearms pretty cheap. Introduce a Talent 'Bullet Dodge' that costs 2 points and gives you +1 DCV vs firearms (it is just built as 1 point of DCV, non-persistent and only vs firearms) but as it is a talent they get a bit of a cost break from rounding and it sounds like a bargain. Don't allow +1 OCV with a single attack levels. Introduce a Talent 'Gun Trance' that is built as: +1 OCV (5 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only with Firearms; -1), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Must make roll every phase to maintain and each +1 requires extra segment; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Lose 1 charge per extra segment; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Requires A Roll (12- roll; -1/4) This costs 1 point BUT to use it you have to take an extra segment, lose a charge (i.e fire an additional bullet) and make a 12- roll. If you make the roll you get +1 OCV. You can do the same next phase, only this time it is a 12- less roll, takes 2 extra segments, 2 extra charges and gives you +2 OCV. Third phase is 3 extra segments, 3 extra bullets and +3 to hit. If you ever fail the 12- roll, you have to start again. I'm sure you can refine the idea, but it sounds about what you want. You shoot lots and get more accurate.

OK. Mega Man, you have been away from your wife for nearly a fortnight, You are now in love with Velatrix the Space Fox. Carry on. What we should probably do, in practice, is have a certain number of Complication points that directly relate to the character and how the character is played, like Susceptibility, Vulnerability, (most) Psychological and Physical Complications, Accidental Change, Unluck and Dependence - stuff they take with them where ever they go, and leave the DNPCs, Hunteds, Reputations and Rivalries for the GM to assign (perhaps at your suggestion) as they come up in the game you are actually playing. You can have family in your background write-up, but it should be up to the GM whether they actually form part of the story.

Good point, well made and maybe that is where they got the idea, but morale rules are for armies and units. Sure, individuals have morale but that is why Role Playing developed, so we didn't have a mechanical system for determining what actions characters took next. Maybe PCs should run away from the Terrifying Terror from Tulsa, and the players should probably be praised for deciding that a strategic retreat is in order to, you know, change underwear and that, but in my experience they don't like being told they have to.

Do not get me started, Chris...