Sean Waters

Re: How is Combat Sense built?

Re: Transformation trouble *laughing* No,the vault door will WANT to open for you. One thing I've never been too clear on: you transform an enemy to (say) a soapstone statue (the belgian waffle thing is getting tired), and then - accidentally, obviously - the thing falls down a set of stairs and shatters and then - somehow - all the bits get mailed to different continents. What happens when the target heals? Does it heal from the largest bit, or is it in pieces? Also, for a *hero* being able to disable without the possibilty of accidentally killing the target has to be a plus.

Re: Shapeshifting Another way to do shapeshift - and I do not think you should - is with a cosmic VPP with very limited power - just one - multiform. In 5th ed Multiform is a Standard not a special power (oh Lordy). For a 70 point pool, control cost is (+2, limited group -1) 52. Power costs you 132 points (chose 70 assuming a 350 point character) and you actually CAN change into pretty much anything and you get the powers to boot. Now if it can cost 80+ points to build a meaningful 'complete' shapeshift, this looks like the way to go for you metamorphs...

Re: Transformation trouble No stun and no KB. No it does not, and I don't have the book with Grond in, least not for 5th ed. Does he have PowDEF and what are his rPD/PD and rED/ED? You want to take a specific example, where Grond is already at 1 STUN? Fine, Grond superleaps away and takes a recovery...he can't recover that quickly from your transform attack, no matter what he does. I'm not saying KA is no use, I'm just saying a power that effects defences a lot of characters don't have (which is why AVLD is so expensive...) that can be used to, for instance, effectively recruit Grond (or turn him into a Belgian Waffle) is pretty powerful with far more utility than a killing attack. As for the heal thing - come on - you've got what - at least a week to zap 'em again and top up the transform - that is no disadvantage at all, and if you do eat the Belgian Waffle, what happens to Grond when he does 'heal'...messy... As to utility, most objects do not have any PowDEF, so who is going to get through the vault door quicker?

Re: Transformation trouble You are absolutely right...for the record I don't have any characters I play that use transformation. The first bit is right though: I revise the cost estimate to 30+ for 1d6.

Re: Shapeshifting

Re: Transformation trouble And a very shiny .02 it is! It depends what the transform does, would be my .02 in the pot. If it is a mental transform, not much use against tanks (the tank thinks it is your friend...don't know, could work...), but if it turns the target into belgian waffles, it will work against pretty much anything, people, tanks, walls, so it can destroy stuff and most materials don't have Power DEF, so it can do it quicker and easier than a killing attack. And you get lunch thrown in! Point is if you want to build it as a Kill Attack beater, it wins hands down 90+% of the time (and then there's the pesky character with 45 Power DEF. He's even bought his own syrup, the smug git...)

Re: Transformation trouble

Re: Bulletproof OK, stupid of me to think a poll might resolve anything. The consensus seem to be that we like KAs, but there are a significant proportion of those who do like them who argue against the STUN lottery. I suppose one real objection, in some ways, to Killing Attacks is that they are priced equivalently to normal attacks (average damage works out about the same for a 12d6 EB or a 4d6KA - yes, I know deviation from the average is a problem, but bear with me) but are stopped by a more limited group of defences, which in a utility balancing exercise means they should cost more. So, I thought we might make them cost less. I posted this suggestion earlier, but I've refined the idea a little. You cost KAs like EBs with a +1/2 advantage: BODY only stopped by resistant defences, STUN only stopped if there are SOME resistant defences (as we are used to). Resistant defences are very common, so this shouldn't be too much unrealistic. Roll the dice as if it was a normal attack, total up STUN and BODY, then double the BODY. The attack then does more BODY and less STUN. Use the base BODY damage to calculate KB, without the additional 1d6 penalty. If you want to keep KAs as a seperate power rather than modified normal damage, they would cost 7.5 points per 1d6. This would be better, probably, or a 4d6KA with armour piercing would work out at 40 points rather than 45, but either way works for me, and 7.5 is such an awkward number when we are used to 5s and 10s. Example: a 2d6 RKA (7 BODY, 19 stun average, max damage 12 BODY, 60 STUN) becomes a 4d6 RKA doing 8 BODY and 14 STUN average (max damage 16 BODY, 24 STUN), and it IS much more of an average. It is a consistent mechanic with the rest of the game and should be easy to implement - just double the number of dice and roll as above. Moreover it means that KAs will do more BODY and less STUN per DC, which some people have been arguing is how it should work. It still isn't 'fair' in that KA should be more expensive, but it then makes them practically pointless in superhero games. You can't win them all. What do you think? (I don't expect anyone to abandon the current system, I'm not QUITE that egotistical yet, but do give this one some thought. Cheers.) This method should make KAs in superhero games no more effective: I fully expect that many heroes will have sufficient defences to stop the damage entirely (a 4d6 KA becomes an 8d6 KA and does 16 BODY/28 Stun on average), but it does mean that KAs are better at breaking stuff. At heroic level, it makes guns just as deadly and scary, especially if used in conjunction with hit locations, but slightly more predicatable.

Slaps forehead. Bit too hard. That hurt... Just realised what is wrong with transform: it is too cheap. The design logic for it, I understand, is that if you do enough BODY to kill something then you might as well do pretty much anything else to it, it can't be worse (not actually true, mentally converting a hero into a villain is much more use than just taking them down, but never mind) Therefore a major transform is priced like a killing attack. There seems to be two pretty fundamental problems with this approach: 1. Transform, being a power that doesn't work against normal defences, should be priced like killing attack with AVLD, or 15 x 2.5 = 37 points per 1d6. Work it another way around, a similar effect is BODY drain, which costs, in effect, 20 points for 1d6 BODY drain (or 2d6 drain but you need 2 points of effect to drain 1 BODY) +1/2 advantage for ranged, would work out at 30 points. Don't even get me started on the increased cost due to the long return rate. I'm feeling generous, let us say 30 points per 1d6 of major transform as an absolute minimum. IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT THAT THIS PARAGRAPH IS INCORRECT: THOSE DOING SO ARE ABSOULTELY RIGHT 2. Doing BODY total damage doesn't kill in Champions, you need to get to negative BODY to do that, so you should have to do TWICE as much damage as we have been to affect a transformation. Let us stick with just doing BODY total 'damage' and double the cost of the base power (same diierence in the end run), as calculated above, and 1d6 of major transform should cost 60 points, at least. Mimimum. 30 (60) points? Blimey, no wonder I thought it was a bit useful, transform, I've only been paying 1/2 (1/4) of the cost. Bargain. I don't believe there are many people who don't believe that transform is either too cheap or too powerful, and I'm not counting here those of us with strangely effective favourite characters who utilise this oddly efficient power...I could be wrong, though. So, is my maths and/or reasoning wrong, and if not, what should be done about it?

Re: Shapeshifting I will definitely be using the word 'granularity' in conversation. Thank you, caris. Apologies to everyone who knows me.

Re: Possession I'm very pleased for you, and, yes we can tell that you are pleased with yourself. Sounds like a fun and challenging game. One question: how do you handle range? Say The Evictor, or whatever he is called possesses Shirley Strange, then steps through a teleport gate to the other side of the country to commit an atrocity of some sort. In the ensuing battle he decides to flit out and leave Shirley to her fate. Not quite sure how your mechanic works, but it seems that he returns if KO'd ...which I would say was an advantage, BTW. His mind is then travelling maybe a thousand miles or more. For villains and plot devices, no problem. For players... Obviously you are outside of your transform range and have no LOS. You might need some sort of specialised Mind Link or even Mind Scan to get home again.

Re: Bulletproof Sorry NotJohn, I was looking at the bottom of the post and saw the name: it's your quote (smacks forehead with palm, or possibly some sort of fern) In answer to the Wolvy point, the slice up frequency depends on who is writing him. Look, what I might do is post a poll to see if people think that Killing attacks are a good mechanic or not. If every one loves them, why am I still talking?

Re: Shapeshifting I can only apologise, Rapier, I don't know what came over me...but thank you for your kind words. I have played shapeshifters (I'm converting a 4th to 5th edition one at present and so the topic is live for me) and I think I can put my finger on part of the problem. We now have adders and much tighter and more restrictive definitions. Before you could build a character that could turn into something different, say a lion, and the cost was a bit less than it is in 5th ed. You didn't change scent, because no one had thought of it and it got fluffed through on special effects. Now, if you 'really' do want to change into someone/something else it is going to cost you becasue of all the senses you have to cover...and you're not really changing, you are making it appear to perceptions that you are. One way of making it cheaper before was to apply a limitation to what you could turn into. Monster Girl (the character I mentioned above) can turn into any creature at all, but it has to be 'monstrous'. Before I'd have a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation, now I have a 10 point adder. That can make a significant difference to overall cost. Obviously MG is not the team infiltrator: Guard 1: Halt, who goes there? MG: Grrrrrrrrraaaaaaa! Guard 2: Oh, it's OK, its only Godzilla! Guard 1: Hey, Goddy, welcome back. How was Tokyo? The feel of shapeshifting (if you'll excuse the pun) was different. The new way of looking at it (just can't stop with the puns...) is more restrictive and leaves less room for GM/player discretion, if you are playing by the rules as writ. As it happens, MG gets away with quite a lot, but then I've been playing her for some time...one example, MG has, on one occasion, changed into a monstrous serpent, which was long and thin (MG has 30 points of growth too, so very long...). She got away with stretching a hell of a distance (far more than I could afford to buy with combat stretching) to grab the tail of a plane we needed to stop taking off. I grabbed the plane and slowed it enough to let the others catch up and we won the day, trouncing evil and recapturing Hitler's brain...long story...everyone was happy). You could call it a one off power trick under 4th, under 5th it is clearly an impossible abuse. Silly point, but worth making. If you take shapeshift to ONLY effect touch and shapeshift into a fat dwarf, everyone sees you as you were before. If they punch you in the head that they see, do they hit you but not feel like they have, or do they miss you?

Re: Shapeshifting What zornwill said. People have been implying that shapeshift is 'the real deal'. If you buy it just against sight, it is an illusion (albeit a good one) thrown over your usual shape. You don't actually shift shape, you fool other peoples senses into thinking you are a different shape, which is why it has no 'real world effect'.

Re: Shapeshifting Imitation shapeshifting still allows a PER roll for people who know the character well at -3. This would cost 9 points in images (-3 to PER roll). You automatically get to copystuff with an INT roll. Shapeshift is not 'perfect', but I accept that there are disadvantages to images. Can you accept that this is (more than) balanced by it's increased utility. Range: you can throw your voice, or make it appear that a team mate is doing a sneak attack - then do one yourself. The power can emulate darkness in some ways, especially effective if you buy personal immunity: put a wall in front of you then punch through it. Lots of other stuff: you can look like Dan Rather a significant part of the time. Who's going to spot that you are fake,and if they do, isn't that goingt o convince them you are the original? Invisibility is a great espionage tool, more useful in some situations, less so in others than shapeshift. That is pretty rare in comics (characters you can not see are not interesting to watch). It is similarly priced and has far greater effect in combat. The other well made point is that the price reflects comic book reality/rareness. I would be persuaded if this carried through to other powers, but dare I point at transform? Not a very common power in comics. Cheap for what it does. In fact if you had two characters with 5 points of cosmetic transform in the party you could have them make each other look exactly like Dan Rather. For this reason I can not accept that it is the design philosophy to keep shapeshifters rare. You can do that in any event by not building/allowing them very often, you don't need a rules mechanic. Finally whilst I agree that they are great for role playing certain scenarios, you only really get to do that a great deal if you are playing solo. A group won't want to wait around whilst Proteus infiltrates VIPER, uncovers the plot and sets demolition charges around the doomsday device, so, in practice, you are only going to get to use the powers in limited ways, like fooling a guard to get the rest of the group in.

Re: Shapeshifting No, but that is it: it got more expensive for no good reason I can see.

Re: Shapeshifting

Re: Can't Feel Pain Ego attacks would be double stun. The problem is that the nerves don't transmit pain, not that you can not experience it, so if something that can cause you pain (like an ego attack, which goes straight to source) you'd really feel it. I would build it with damage reduction: enough trauma would KO you but you are unlikely to ever take enough damage from physical or energy attacks to stun you. Build it with Dam Red and Phys Lim: insensitive - you may, for instance be unaware thatyour hand is in a candle flame until you smell the burning. Another seperate phys lim: -4 to tasks requiring fine manipulation. Nerves don't work, no feedback. Maybe a psych lim: no real understanding of the pain/damage thing (based on an INT rather than an EGO roll), and Vulnerability 2x STUN from anyhting that causes pain without going through normal nerve channels (ego attacks, some poisons, electric shocks to the head...)

Re: Shapeshifting I'd need to check this but I'm pretty sure you'll find you can not use transform on yourself. That prevents you doing that quick fix. Images presents an 'image' that can be detected as 'false' by a PER roll. So does shapeshift, even with the 'imitation' adder, and it is ranged, can fill a hex, etc ect for basically the same cost as shapeshift. You can hardly say to someone who has images that they can not create an image of Dan Rather over themselves if they can do so over there (points to corner). Completely with you on the 'combat is not the be all, let alone the end all' point, but I was using the comparison to invisibilty - also an espionage game killer. It is only slightly more expensive and DOES have huge combat benefits. It is also a sense affecting power built on a similar pricing structure. Recently played a game against some 'Super Skrull' clones. Boy, is invisibilty a huge advantage.

Re: Bulletproof Once more, agreed. The current system does create some inequities. I suppose you could do this. You buy Killing attacks as normal attacks with a +1/2 advantage, only stopped by resistant defences, then roll them as usual, counting BODY and STUN as you would for a normal attack. A 12d6 normal attack becomes an 8d6 killing attack, but the damage caused will be more likely to be in the middle range i.e. 8 BODY, 28 STUN, as opposed to a 4d6 KA as written that will cause 14 BODY, and 14-70 STUN. That would bring it in line with the idea that resistant defences are basically normal defences at a +1/2 advantage...just thinking out loud...

Sorry, you are absolutely right. In my defence, I did check the FAQ, but I was looking under 'Reduced Endurance', which also answers questions on 'costs END to activate', so I missed it. Perhaps they could be cross referenced?

Re: Bulletproof Always good for a laugh. Look, I agree with you, John. Kill Attack should be a measurably different power. It should do more BODY and less STUN than a normal attack at the same DC. The game is set up so that is accomplished by defences rather than how the power is defined, which is fine, but leads to these problems being endlessly debated. You say bricks don't have to worry about bullets in comics? Agreed. But all of them are scared of Wolverine's claws. The problem is that the system as it stands doesn't model that: even a 2d6 RKA can get (on a lucky roll) through virtually any defences. Perhaps I would be persuaded to apply the 'stun multiple only BODY that gets through' line if the power did more BODY? As is I thiink it completely neuters the power...which may be your point.

This house believes that the power 'Shapeshift' is too expensive. Discuss. The basic reason is that it is a power with no direct effect on combat, except for the odd surprise attack bonus. It is a power that has enormous potential to imbalance a game, but that will depend on the role playing: a GM can always rules that a lot of places have pheremonal detectors, and the player can't shift smell. The point is the usefulness of the power is in the application by the player which is not properly quantifyable across games. The power should be a warning or stop power, but cost less to purchase. Compare images: a similar cost and far more application - in fact it could be used as a de facto shapeshift in addition to its other utility. Compare invisibilty: more expensive, but only 10 points in most situations, with massive combat effect and equally great potential to imbalance a game. Shapeshift is basically a SFX you pay for in most cases. You could make the power cheaper and the more difficult to run bits (like imitation) more expensive or more difficult to use (requires physical contact and extra time, for example).

Couple of questions for you (sorry, I'm being especially thick now the weather has turned colder, hence the large number of recent posts). 1. If a power is bought with the advantage 'costs END to activate', can you make it persistent for an additional +1/2 (as usual). On the one hand it costs END, so you shouldn't be able to, on the other, once it is on it doesn't cost END so you should...hmmmm....? The character I'm thinking of is a shapeshifter: it takes effort (END) to actually move bits of the body round, but once moved, they stay there until moved again. 2. If a power costs END to activate can you also limit it by increasing the END cost, and if so would the limitation be as listed or at a lesser level, say one or two levels down the chart? Thank you.