Nadrakas
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Posts posted by Nadrakas
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That's what has to be decided. Do we do a "Fantasy Complete" or a series of stand alone Adventures first?
This is what I would go for (In-order...more or less).
- Presenting the Hero System: Short Intro to the Hero System. Has a Complete Fantasy Adventure with everything self-contained, including several (6 ?) pregen characters, spells, normal items/magic items, NPCs, and monsters. Everything self contained.
- Hero Streamlined/Fantasy Complete (?): Basically what we've been talking about. A quick "down & dirty" character creation system. Perhaps a setting (Maybe...see Setting below) with adventures. Toolkitting in the back.
- Adventures (Basic): Self-contained adventures for new players. All self-contained with fully created pregen characters. All straight forward and ready to go with minimal set-up. Make it as easy as possible on everyone involved. Not "dumb"...just quick and fun.
- Adventures (Advanced): More robust adventures. Pregen characters with more options. Of course players can bring their own characters into the adventure. Toolkitting in the back to explain how to modify the adventure (People who have been playing the Basic Adventures may pick these up...and might need some guidance afterall).
- A Setting Book: Somewhere in the above (With the adventures) I'd like a setting book. This is only if Hero's won't allow for us to plug into any of the existing Hero Setting (Talking Copyright infringement here).
(Note: Fantasy is looking like the way we'll go...but let's not "lock" ourselves into this. We might want a CyberFantasy, SteamFantasy, or even a straight forward Space Setting here. Let's keep thing open for now. We don't fully know where this is going...yet.
)Again, I want to keep things as straight forward as possible. Over explaining things, "extreme math" complexity (is there such a thing??), too much complexity in general, and just not explaining things well will turn people off and just drive people away. (In reality many other systems are just as -- if not more -- "math intensive" as Hero's. It's just that Hero's does all the math at the beginning.)
I think that a few of the goals should be to make things easy and fun for new players, while at the same time easing any concerns they may have heard about the Hero System.
Peace.
~ N
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I think we are on different wave lengths
I am talking about a Fantasy complete book that has:
Part One
1) Simplified Character Generation
2) A batch of pregens using the simplified Character Generation
3) Simplified rules to play
4) simplified GM section with pregenerated Monsters and Treasure
5) an included adventure making use of 1-4.
Part Two
1) How Hero's toolkitting works
2) Hero creation rules
3) an under the hood breakdown of items from Part One.
All as a complete package written to be internally consistent.
Ah, thought so.
I think that the above is on target with what's been discussed.
I'd like to see some stand alone" adventures that have everything inside (pregen characters, the complete adventure itself, antagonists - NPCs/Monsters, "Powers" written up/expained, combat explained, etc -- basically a "how-to" for new players).
One of the things that I want to do is to make things as friendly and straight forward as possible. The full blown Hero System can be intimidate, but honestly, for a lot of people d20 (3.0/3.5, 4.0), GURPS, Palladium, and most other systems can too, if you've never played them (I've even had people say that VtM was "complicated"...).
~ N
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Ok...
If a Adventure is put out for play, with pregenerated characters...and the pregenerated characters are not designed for and have nothing to do with the Adventure then why are the premade characters in the book in the first place?
Maybe we're talking about two different things here.
This is the way I understood it...maybe I'm wrong:
- Setting Book(s): Characters as you have described -- Step by Step, with simplified explanations & some tool-kitting (as has been discussed previously).
- Adventure(s): Pregen Characters, replete with everything ready to go so that minimal prep has to be accomplished on the players part. (Very basic explanations. Toolkitting kept to a minimum).
Again, maybe I'm wrong here...
~ M
"Keep on the Border Land" -- Classic
On the others ("Against the Slave Lords" or "Against the Giants") there are Pregens and they (for the most part) take place in the same place (for the most part...).
~ N
(Ok...in "Against the Giants" you go into a Wooden Keep, then Underground, then into a Fiery place, then eventually to a Cloud Castle...then eventually you fight Drow...but that's all ok...not necessarily the "same"...but still fun!!!)
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"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"
Arrrggghhhh!
So this followed us over too
Yep..."Sigh"
~ M
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Remember that the pregens in this case are not actually deigned for the adventure, though they they certainly should be built so they could be used. The reason to have a large number of pregens is to provide examples of how Fantasy Hero characters are built. One of the hardest hurdles Hero faces is that character generation in Hero is completely different from any other game. Instead of just selecting from a list of options, you actually have the underlying meta-rules and design your abilities whole clothe.
The use of prebuilt lists of abilities is not there to completely replace Hero Tool-kiting, but instead to give them a way to ease into the system. Given them a grouping of prebuilt abilities and a solid sampling of pregens designed to show what the final item looks like. Then they can use those as examples to look back on as the digest Part 2.
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Yes we could use 'packages' like that. But one of the major issues I have faced when trying to get people into Hero is that they will want to understand how and what the package does before they buy one. And the purpose here is to get them actually playing so that they will have enough experience with Hero to understand the explanation.
Yes have the packages available in the streamlined 'build a character' area, but have a pregenerated Combat Mage and a pregenerated Mind Bender Mage (Enchanter) built so they can see what one looks like and take it out for a spin.
For the pregens I would include tips for play along the line of the write ups used in the Champions villain books, skipping name and personal history of course.
Having a mage for each race allows the example pregens to be made and display that even though they are mages, they can have very different styles and abilities.
In the end, everything in the book should be designed to teach Hero and overcome the "oh my God! it's math" stigma.
Ok...
If a Adventure is put out for play, with pregenerated characters...and the pregenerated characters are not designed for and have nothing to do with the Adventure then why are the premade characters in the book in the first place?
Maybe we're talking about two different things here.
This is the way I understood it...maybe I'm wrong:
- Setting Book(s): Characters as you have described -- Step by Step, with simplified explanations & some tool-kitting (as has been discussed previously).
- Adventure(s): Pregen Characters, replete with everything ready to go so that minimal prep has to be accomplished on the players part. (Very basic explanations. Toolkitting kept to a minimum).
Again, maybe I'm wrong here...
~ M
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If you want to include both introductory adventures and a mini-setting/home base for the players, I suggest putting the adventures in locations that fit within a reasonable distance from said home base. E.g. if the adventures take place in mountain caves, a forest, and a nobleman's castle on the sea coast, make sure all those environments make sense for a few days' travel from whatever town the PCs are starting from.
Sounds Reasonable.
Sort of like the "Against the Slave Lords" or "Against the Giants" series of adventures.
~ M
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I might be getting a copy of HSMA next month
I like my copy. I prefer hard-copies when I can have them.
Just glad I was able to get mine now.
~ N
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Kraven Kor: The mix 'n' match road sounds great in theory, but it is darn difficult. I think Spence has the right of it with his methodology. There may be a few extra points to spend on some characters and not enough on others, but there is the option of having some suggestions for spending the extra points, based on the profession or role (face, brick, healer, etc.) of the character.
When it comes to the Introduction Adventures, I'd suggest that instead of a dozen or two Pregens, that we offer a small selection of characters. We could potentially give an option to customize them. For example: with the "Fighter-type" there could be a Hand-to-Hand Package and a Bow-and-Arrow Package. With the "Wizard Type" there could be a Combat Master Package and the Mind Bender Package. Each would cost the same when compared to each other (HTH vs B&A; CM vs MB) so as to keep things balanced, and would allow for the player to have some choice without overwhelming them with the entirety of the Rules.
As for Adventures targeted to established players. Not sure that Pregens would be needed. If Pregens are provided...maybe more than a handful, but I wouldn't go hog-wild: No more than 8 or so. Enough to give options for the players to pick from without slowing things down in the selection process. I'd keep the "customization" process above.
~ N
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Actually, while they may be boring, they may just be what is needed. This type of intro is designed to get players to try a Hero fantasy game. And pretty much every one of the successful sword winging spell slinging fantasy games have the core fantasy archetypes in them. They are familiar and familiar is what people drift to. I don’t know any fantasy type games that are popular that do not have them, and by popular I mean actually being played in FLGS today and being bought/ordered there. Every one of the games that is not centered there seems to only be followed by niche gamers in ones and twos.
This is what I would do:
Have character creation use templates.
Step One: Pick Racial Template
Human
Dwarf
Elf
Halfling
Step Two: Pick Profession Template (I would tweak the names)
Warrior/Fighter
Thief/Rogue
Priest/Cleric
Mage/Magic User
Step Three: Pick X Skills
Lists of pre-packaged skills
Step Four: Pick X Abilities.
A series of pre-built ‘abilities’ based on profession.
Magical types have fewer picks to offset spells.
Step Five: Magic, Pick X Spells
Lists of Spells split between mage and cleric
Step Six: Customize
The player spends a hand full of character points to tweak the PC.
While steps 3-6 will have pre-designed lists of equal value picks, the full skill list will be there for customization picks.
Step Seven: Buy Equipment.
Include a pregen for each race/profession combo.
Include the rules of play, combat, movement, skill use etc. (ie Hero in Two pages expanded).
For the adventure, have a generic frontier fantasy village with small inn/tavern as a base.
Include a small adventure suitable for a party of 3-5 players.
THEN
In Part Two of the book insert the actual power build rules and how the HERO tool kit works. Dissect a sample of the templates/abilities/equipment (racial, profession, abilities, spell, sword, chain mail, etc) and show how they were created.
Now they have an actual game they can play out of the box plus all the all the information they need to leave the reservation if they want to. Of just tweak things without leaving.
(Nod) Keep it familiar. Keep it simple. Keep it on target.
What you posted is pretty much on target with what BlueCloud2k2 & I've discussed.
Peace.
~ N
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I am also willing to contribute to the project. I majored in creative writing in college.
Nadrakas and I have discussed writing an adventure scenario, but I think we need a core "bible" for the setting.
First things first, do we use classic races or do we do something new? I'd like to see something new, to be honest. Dwarves and Elves and the rest have gotten boring.
But...I like Dwarves. I like Elves too...preferably cooked and roasted.
But in all seriousness, I can go either way on this.
~ N
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I really don't think the setting needs to be that developed. At least not to the level that HERO gamers tend to expect. Take a good look at the D&D books. Just how developed was the 'world'. Not much at all. They gave you material needed to build a PC and some info on creatures and treasure. A basic world/region map. That was pretty much it.
If I may. Perhaps, at first, a quick Adventure (to get our feet wet) that contains everything that the players need: Pregen PCs, Plot, NPCs, Monsters, etc. Things would have to be explained a bit more in-depth than normal when it comes to how the system works, but not to the point that it would take the place of the Core System (We're not trying to replace Hero...just attract new players afterall).
I know this is kind of counter-intuitive nowadays, but it would be a starting point. It doesn't have to be long, indeed a somewhat short adventure that is focused and stays on target would probably be best (as much as adventures can do that with player's involved
). After that, move on to bigger projects, such as a Setting.
~ N
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The only real issue with cross-platform will be fonts. Some don't cross the threshold well, but otherwise, yeah no real problems there. As far as where we work.... I would suggest here until a rough framework of people and "duties" is hashed out, and then via email and perhaps keeping live files in a dropbox account all the people involved have access to. This seems to be the easiest way considering the obvious separation of time, location and duties this entails.
Font's are always an issue, even between the same platform. I'd say keep it to a basic Font for review, and allow the person(s) who are doing the Layout & Design hash out the Layout & Design worry about the Fonts.
Agreed on the Duties.
Agreed on e-mail & dropbox. Question: Is there a "dropbox" that has a post/forum/on-site message for collaboration purposes?
All logical.
~ N
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Question: How do we go about this? Do we do the work here, via e-mail, or via another web-site?
~ N
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I agree that the tool-kitting must be in the book. I just think it should be in a Part Two or Appendix. Safely tucked out of sight until they are understand the game play enough to want to make changes.
(Nod...) If it is anywhere else, it should be minimal...but I'm more for a Part X/Appendix section.
~ N
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Good, I have access to Adobe CC and every version before that. I typically do all my text work in InDesign, though I also have access to MS word and virtually any other DTP or GA program. Also, I do all my work in the Mac OS, though I can transliterate, etc if need be. I think the first thing to be determined is if we want to have people pitch settings first (which seems the natural order) or build pieces willy-nilly and then shoe horn them in.
Gather together. Then, as for "Setting," decide on exactly what we want to do. I wouldn't go willy-nilly/hog-wild. We need to be on the same sheet-of-music, otherwise we'll be spinning our wheels.
I work on a PC, but nowadays's that isn't as much of an issue as far as cross-platform comparability goes.
~ N
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Okay, at this point, it might be useful to get some commitment from folks concerning particular tasks, etc. For myself aside from "creative" work, I can do typsetting, graphics creation, layout, PDF and Ebook creation, as well as some web/IT tasks. Another thought occurred to me, that we may actually want to build a website to better facillitate the process of tracking and coordinating this project.
Agreed. Count me in.
I suspect that we'll have people filling many different "Jobs."
I can do Creative Writing, Layout/Design, Typesetting, PDF Creation, Graphics (To an extent - I have issues w/hand art due to physical disabilities
) For software I have Adobe CS2/InDesign2 & Corel6. For word processing I use LiberOffice.We can decide on exactly what the first project should be as we get a team together: Specific Genre, Established Setting (Legality with Hero Games??), What Exactly (Full Setting, Adventure, etc), and more. For now, I'd suggest getting a team together and perhaps keeping our ambitions realistic -- start small at first, then work on a larger project(s) as we grow/get comfortable doing this sort of thing.
Peace.
~ N
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The 6th edition Champions genre book (not Champions Complete) has something called the Superhero Gallery in it, which is essentially this. I think it could very much work for Fantasy Hero, especially in the Open & Play book.
In concept, yes. I had forgotten about this. Thanks for mentioning it Chris.
~ N
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I will say that my preference would be for any mention of toolkitting to be in the same location as the basic power description, and for it to be very minimal. HERO GM's can use the other core books for further detail; but the information should be in the "Open Box, Play" version, listed with the basic rules entry, in a very streamlined way that doesn't take up much page space. A little colored-background addendum to each spell, power, talent, feat, whatever.
Perhaps in a Sidebar? -- but then the Tool Kitting would be short by necessity. I wouldn't want to scare away people with the "math" here. That is one of the biggest complaints that people tend to have with Hero's -- it's Math Intensive (Though there are plenty of Math Intensive systems out there...Hero's just Front Loads the Math, as opposed to spreading things out...). Along with being "overly complex & wordy." (I don't have a problem with either...but I'm olde and cantankerous
).Again, this would be focused toward the New Players, not toward the Established Players. We can make products for the Established Players that is is like the Regular Products, just the "Hero Basic" products would be streamlined.
Don't know if I'm explaining this well...
~ N
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Well, on the good side at least it isn't health related.
That is good news. I don't wish any health problems on anyone.
~ N
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(BlueCloud2k2 and I talked about this through Messaging...not posting for him...)
This wouldn't necessarily be for the experienced Hero Gamer. It would be an Introduction to New Players. Think of this as kind of like the D&D Basic to Immortal Sets: Basic Set (1st - 3rd Level), Expert Set (4th - 14th Level), Companion Set (15th - 25th Level), Master Level (26th - 36th Level) and Immortal Set (Well...Immortals). This would be an Introduction, leading into the Main Hero Rules. You'd have a very simplified character creation built through a Modified Template structure, with all "Powers" having their game effects described in the Flavor Text -- accompanied by standard Hero Rules States. Some Tool Kitting could be included in the back, with a short introduction/explanation of the Hero System (not overwhelming...), in order to attract New Players.
Character Creation would be a quick "plug & play" method. Come up with a concept, choose a "Template" at each Step, write the Characteristics/Skills/Combat Values/etc and you're ready to go. (Think VtM Character Creation...)
As far as a "Human Package Deal" -- Why not?? Each Race gets a Base in each Characteristic (Example: Human's get 10's. Elves get 8's or 10's in most things, while some are lower or higher. Same with the other races.). You write any "Specials" (Powers, etc) that go along with the Race. Then move on to the next Step. Keeping the Points Even at each Step allows for things to Balance at the end. Again...K.I.S.S..
I know this is Jarring to the regular Hero Player, but I'm trying to "Think Outside the Box" here. Trying to attract New Players. If we keep doing the same thing over, and over, and over...then the number of new player's that we attract will continue to diminish, and eventually we'll all be old fogies wishing for the "Good Olde Days." This doesn't mean that the System needs to be changed -- it doesn't. Just that a simpler "Plug & Play Character Creation" might -- just might -- attract a few new players, which might spread...and eventually, some of these new Player's might spend the time to learn the System, spend a little money and help expand the overall Line. A long-term strategy....not a quick fix.
Note: I am not necessarily wedded to the "Human, Elves, Dwarves, etc" thing, or even a Fantasy Setting (Despite this being a Fantasy Forum). This would have to be decided by a group consensuses as to the Genre, What was being done (Full Setting, Adventure, Character/Monster/Power Book, etc), along with a great many other details. Something like this -- even small -- requires a LOT of work (One that I'm willing to commit to with help) and shouldn't be entered into lightly...though any amount of time & effort would be appreciated.
Peace.
~ N
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I received the HERO System Martial Arts, along with the Hero System Equipment Guide, yesterday afternoon. I've gone over them both and I am very please with the High Quality of both products. The binding is very good, and the text is very legible with no sign of smudges (I've seen this in other PODs in the past...but not from RPGNow...). Overall, I am VERY Pleased!
Thank You for providing this as a POD!
~ Nadrakas
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I received the Hero System Equipment Guide, along with the HERO System Martial Arts, yesterday afternoon. I've gone over them both and I am very please with the High Quality of both products. The binding is very good, and the text is very legible with no sign of smudges (I've seen this in other PODs in the past...but not from RPGNow...). Overall, I am VERY Pleased!
Thank You for providing this as a POD!
~ Nadrakas
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Yeah, I think is the general path this should take, a pretty straightforward "flow-chart" to a character... If you make characters easy to build, you've beaten at least half of the complaints I have ever heard concerning Hero. A set of career paths, some racial backgrounds, starting gear packages.. that sort of thing goes a long way towards getting the unwashed masses playing, at least in my opinion.
KISS -- Keep It Simple Silly
~ N
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I think that to get the various incarnations of Hero out there we need to get a out of the box playable version into the world first. Then introduce them to the wonders of the ToolKit.
As Nadrakas mentioned.
This is one of the reasons I think that Vampire the Masquerade (And the other WoD settings) did so well (and still have a following). You could open the book, follow a relatively easy to follow character creation, and in a pretty short time have a completed character. I know, comparing any WW product to Hero is like comparing Apples & Oranges, but they were "out of the box playable."
So, create the writeups to be easily understood without being overly "Rules Lawyerish."
Spence, you make a good point. In fact, I think you hit the nail on the head.
However, I still think that the tool kitting should be included in the initial product. Up to a certain point.
I would say prebuild everything (Class Packages, Talents, etc), tie in the relevant skills and combat sections of the current edition. List how much everything costs so everyone can build the character they want. But provide (either as a footnote or as a free PDF download) the actual ability Builds such as what I posted in my example above.
Thus we have:
- A complete and ready-to-use Setting and Rulesbook.
- Hero System's ability to toolkit the game so the GM and players can do what they want to do with their characters
- A behind-the-scenes look at how the abilities were built.
Tool Kitting: I'd keep it to a minimum and away from the initial writeups -- say in the back of the book -- for when the players want to read about it. Don't force it on them...let them read it when they are ready.
Prebuilds: Might I suggest using something akin to "Templates" in a step-by-step process to build characters? This would allow players to build their characters while also learning a little about the game at the same time.
Examples:
Step 1) What Race are You? (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Wookie, Ewok, Eldar, etc...).
Step 2) What happened to You during You're Childhood? (Wonderful Education, Born into a Peasant Family, Born with a Silver Spoon in Mouth, War Orphan, Orphan, etc).
Step 3) What happened to You during You're Adolescence? (Apprenticed to a Craftsman, Ran Away From Home, Kidnapped!, Street Rat, Young Noble).
Step 4) What do You do as an Adult? (Soldier, Politician, Hacker, Spacer, Bum, etc).
Step 5) Divide up You're Bonus Character Points.
Note that each of the above Steps would be a little more involved, in that they would across the board add to the Characteristics of the Character at each Step. Also, each Step would cost the same (Step 1 costs V, Step 2, costs W, Step 3 Costs X, etc; -- and yes, would take some work to balance each of them...), in order to keep the final cost "balanced." Various Complications could/should also be included at each step for Player's to choose from. And of course, each of the Steps should include a well thought out bit of Flavor Text.
I know this is taking people by the hand, but it's a teaching method.
~ N
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Why is it so slow in here?
in Fantasy Hero
Posted
The d20 3e Core Rules are fine as far as they go. It's when you start adding in all of the other plethora of books that things get little out of control, and ultimately lead to Unintended Consequences. Even with the "Official" books, there are Feat (and class) combinations that can be overpowering. Same goes for d20 4e.
It's hard to balance things in an RPG.
Shoot...you know what...I've changed my mind. Let's all just switch over to RIFTS®, where there is no attempt to balance things, and we can all play the "Biggest and Baddest thing that just came out in the Newest Book" - "You want 1,000 MegaDamage? Sure, go ahead, because Joe over there has 10,000 MegaDamage because he just bought the Newest Book!" (Actually...I like "most" of the setting. Just not the Rules. And I'm kidding about switching.
).
~ N