Stacie.Winters

The only limitations we face in life are the ones we put in them. Being practical just limits us. In a world of Kickstarter now, where Monte Cook got over a half million dollars for Numenera funded by many of us people, where there is an actual real medium of getting the funds to get new games produced and all that... to live like it's back pre-millennium thinking that herogames would have to get all the money up front to do a 7th Edition even though they have already used Kickstarter for a few products... the entire thinking that it's too practical and difficult to pull off getting a new edition with a new facelift someday is just ridiculously limiting to me. In the end it would be up to herogames to want it, and if they are happy with how their game is perceived and written the way it is now than that's just how it will be. I'll enjoy it no matter what because I like it, but I know that it could be way better than it is now.

Look has a huge bearing on how people react to something. Changing the presentation will have an impact for a lot of people if it can inspire people to actually want to play the game and right now this game does the exact opposite. You can have the same identical rules in a new edition but if that new edition had better layout, better art, and was molded into a really cool campaign world that ISN'T Champions because that world is just not exciting anymore (It's a Marvel clone, everybody knows it and why play in Champions when people would rather play in Marvel?) and that would at least garner a few people out there who would take another look at the game. The rules first, rules only, toolkit style of writing for this game is what does this game in on the whole. Changing this impression, with GOOD art, full color campaign setting worlds that shows off how cool this game really is... getting a well established game writer/designer involved on this would also help, someone with some recognition for being known to create cool game settings. That would help also. Keeping it how it is now will always relegate this game to the bottom of the list and frankly it's sad that there are some fans of this game that would rather keep it at the bottom instead of wanting to see it become better and more used.

I think that Herogames own settings/worlds are very bland and lack inspiration and flavor. All of them feel like carbon copies of other more popular settings and they changed just enough to put their own name on it. They all lack flavor and that's entirely due to a lot of factors: layout, writing, lack of fluff and story, and a focus on technical game mechanisms (which is how Hero System is always presented to me). That's why I have suggested that if they ever did do a 7th Edition, they also need to have a new slew of campaign settings that can show off the game while also giving players something really cool, exciting and inspirational to get into. By inspirational I mean the writing, the look, layout and art style should cause the player to flip through the book and the players reaction should be "I so want to play that," or "omg this world is so cool, I can see playing all kinds of different characters."

I haven't seen all that much fluff at all in Hero game books which to me is both a good and bad thing.

Maybe another confusion that some people probably have when they look at those powers listed above is the use of Real Points and Active Points and how each of them are both interrelated yet also different. This I know would come with just learning the game, but for new people it takes a while to learn. Also I wanted to thank everybody for sharing these power examples.

To make it easier because right now I don't understand the current 'tools' to make such a power and anything that makes it easier for people new to this game makes the game better as a whole. The less complex the better in all honesty. People always state that Hero System can make anything, that anything is possible and that it has the most robust customization of about any toolkit game and yet it's nearly impossible to make certain kinds of character's due to how the game is: A- Perceived to be really complex, and B- The fact that making character's like Superman and Rogue is nearly impossible unless a person has an allotment of points way above everybody else and these two factors alone should inspire people to want to change how the system is now. Sure it's worked, and it's also scared off a lot of potential gamers to this game because of how it's worked in the past. The fact that these certain types of characters are so difficult to make shows how not versatile the game actually is in its current form/paradigm. Why make people go through so much hassle to make a character they might want to make when creating a new Power aimed specifically at that would make the game so much easier for them to make the character's with? Why do we have such specific powers like Tunneling and Swinging when those could be consolidated into a power called Unique Movement, yet there is a single power that has encapsulated nearly all Environmental changing powers into a single power when logically it would actually make sense for each of them to probably be different powers? Why do we have 8 to 10 different powers for special unique defensive power assumptions yet there is a single power for Enhanced Senses that would also probably fit better to be separate powers probably broken up by sense types to make it easier to see the different point costs plus how it combines Active/Detecting Senses as well as Passive Senses? Then there is Darkness and Flash, which have some differences yet thematically they both do basically the same thing, which is shut down a target's "sense" but one seems to be more of an area effect type power and another is targeted against a specific target yet if someone were to build a Flash power with the Area of Effect modifier than it's pretty much the Darkness power itself only it seems like one uses an attack roll and the other doesn't... yet there's a power modifier that can take care of that also and yet thematically both Darkness and Flash are similar to Change Environment, which in and of itself is a fairly confusing power to understand. This is probably where much of the initial complexity is for new players... there are a lot of powers that seem to be a combination of a lot of similarly thematic elements like Enhanced Senses which could easily be split up into their own individual powers yet then this game has individual powers that could easily be combined into a single power that encompasses them into a more united and easier to understand whole. So why are people resistant to seeing a power that could make it easier to build certain types of characters that could make the game easier for new people?

Well she only really permanently copied one person's powers that I know of, but I am not the biggest expert on the actual comic book history of its many characters. I guess I don't understand why a power like this has to be so difficult... and I think that for me if a 7th Edition were to ever be made than it should definitely have a specific power that is basically Power Leaching/Mimic and like Shapeshifting and Transformation it probably would be a power that has different point cost scales per die cost but the basics of it could simply be like... basic concept of a Mimic Power power: ~ Mimic (Power): 3 (or 5, or 10) points per 1d6 and these dice represent a pool of points that, when rolled, allow a person to Mimic the Powers of another person. These rolled points can only mimic actual Powers of the touched person, not natural human characteristic traits and skills. In order for this to work you must be able to touch the target and this could require a attack roll if the target is actively avoiding being touched. When this power is rolled after a successful touch the total points rolled is the amount of Real Points (maybe Active Points would be better... I have no idea) of the touched target's powers are mimicked. You gain the use of those powers for a certain amount of time (insert an average time duration similar to other powers where you have access/use of those powers for like a full combat turn or two and the total rolled determines how long you have these powers before they go away) and when the time is over the powers simply vanish. Now within this power there can be guidelines for using specific Power Advantages and Disadvantages on how to customize it further, like using it at a Range or using it for copying skills and/or actual Characteristics and basically give it the fine details that all the other powers have. One key Power Advantage that would have to be touched on is Leaching Powers and the fine art of using this power for stealing powers temporarily instead of just mimicking them. As for this kind of power this is where my thoughts are right now. Just brainstorming possibilities. I think it would also be something to consider for any future edition is combining some powers together that really fit thematically together, like Damage Negation and Damage Reduction. Both of these pretty much read the same and could also be combined with the Resistance Powers in the game. Just some thoughts. Why do we have to have so many specific different uses of what appears to be so similar conceptually? (please note I ask these questions without having played the game much and consider this a Hero System noob question who wants to understand why this game is the way it is as it is now).

Me, not right now... but if there are powers called Transform or Shapeshift or Multi-Form than it should be possible to create a power called Power Mimic or Power Leach or something like that that sort of functions in a similar vein to these other already established powers I'd think.

Well one other thing I'd love to see somehow worked into any possible 7th edition is making it so making certain types of characters like Rogue of the X-Men or Batman's Utility Belt would be a lot easier than the apparent near impossibility that it is right now.

I am rediscovering Hero System again... just got my 6E Core books in the mail and I have been mulling over wanting to create some things for this game but it will be a while... and as I am just getting back into this game after a Long break... I am approaching this as if I am a new GM to this game so while I am reading the books and getting to know the system yet I am hoping that I will get some advice and suggestions about the Power Creation system for this game and one big way to learn about a game I think it to learn from the experts what kinds of character's are difficult to make so without further ado... What kinds of characters are most difficult to build? This question leads to a second question meaning... what should a new GM using this game for a Supers campaign look out for with regards to how powers can be made and are there some types of powers/characters that would just be a really bad idea to allow into the game? The last time I played any Hero was when 5th edition came out.

Cool, thanks for sharing with us.

I didn't see them... but that doesn't mean I am arguing with you either because it is pretty easy to miss things like this at times. I never go to rpggeek, just boardgamegeek. On the topic of the idea of posting on a website an "unofficial 7th edition" variant in a non-profit way... I don't know if that would be cool to do. Perhaps if the entire website was written as a blog, and each blog entry focused on different elements of the game as it is and then what optional house rules there are, things like that... than perhaps over time there could be enough material to solidify it all as a Hero System variant book but definitely couldn't sell it.

Agreed. The man is really missing out on a lot of golden opportunities that would really help is company out if we were to license his worlds out so other people/companies could write rpg materials for them. I mean, how freaking cool would it be to have a real Rifts HERO game? I think that'd be really awesome, and because it'd be licensed than he'd be making money off the sells too.

All so true... brings much sadness. Regarding the IP... this is why I am always going to be now suggesting that they stop focusing on the Champions license and replace it with a new campaign setting to represent it's Core game. I nearly missed the Fantasy Hero Complete kickstarter. I never saw an advertisement about it... never saw it mentioned on any other rpg website... until it was practically over and this is a combination of both herogames not getting the word out and the fans of the game not spreading the word about it. Heck, I posted the link to the kickstarter on it's last two days on rpg.net just letting people know that this game existed on kickstarter. If they would have somebody post on all the different rpg websites like enworld.org and rpg.net when their games hit kickstarter that'd be a big help but this never did happen. Now I don't even know if I will be able to get a copy of the game book because the company might only print enough copies of the book for those who backed it. I don't know though.

Play a different game first that has it's game mechanisms specifically designed for a different game style of play, like a Fate Core of Cortex Plus game or perhaps Burning Wheel. Because these games are designed around a vastly different paradigm than D&D/Pathfinder style games, where proactive character design and the overall goal is a more story focused, narrative driven game system these games could show players like you are describing a different way of how to play role playing games. Even using Supers Revised Edition could be a good change of pace, and it has a superb random character generation... I know it works because I bought the pdf, flipped to the random character generation chapter, and made a complete character using the charts and never read the book. Right now they are so used to number crunching-min/maxing rpg systems that they will only take what they know and apply it to whatever game they go into. Games like Fate Core change that paradigm because it's truly different enough in it's focus and scope that one of two things will happen... either these players will become aware that there are actually different styles of playing these games that can lead to newer and fresher experiences, or these new games will be so different to them that their minds will explode and they won't be able to handle it, and either way you learn how versatile your players are.

Take the idea of HERO Core and mix with a good mixed genre campaign setting and then there ya go. Focus the game on that setting, like how they did Monster Hunters International, which I just discovered here on the store. Never heard of this game before until the other day. Why isn't this game advertised more, or talked about in other game forums? Of course, my idea of this game would have all the available means of making characters specifically for the setting and all the basic game rules that must be needed and then in a separate sourcebook have all the super detailed power creation rules in a book that could be called The Ultimate HERO Power Creation Toolkit. But I'd make it the second book in a new game line, not the first... and I wouldn't release the first book in a new edition game line until both books were ready to be released. The third book I'd have in a new game line would be a Game Masters Guide to the HERO System. So... Book One: (Insert name of Setting) subtitled with HERO Core 7 Book Two: The Ultimate HERO Power Creation Toolkit - THE book on making Powers and Character Customization, all the crunch any player of HERO would ever need. Book Three: Game Masters Guide to the HERO System - this book would have a lot of advanced rules, different ways to turn the Hero system to different genre's, the rules for how to run the game with different power levels, and a absolute newbie guide to Hero System on both running the game and how to teach the game to new players. Book Four: The Ultimate Players Guide to HERO - let's face it... this game can use all the help in the world on how to break down the game for players to understand... this could be that newbie's guide strictly written for players and most of it can be fluff, suggestions, advice and guidelines. Then after that I'd want to have at least two books to support the core setting with - Setting Guide Book One: (Setting Name) Players Guide - a guide of the setting of the most common knowledge that the typical adventurer of the setting would know, with new player packages, more examples of using the Power Creation Toolkit in the setting that is more customized for the setting. Setting Guide Book Two: (Setting Name) GM Guide - a more detailed guide of the behind the scenes of the setting, with a lot of the secrets and information for the GM to use as well as a broad kingdom by kingdom guide of monsters and key npcs. And I think I'd want to go this route with any future campaign settings developed for the game using a three book format, with the first book being a complete game in and of its own followed by two Setting Guide book, one a players guide and the other a GM guide. Along with that we could also use a lot of the 5th edition guide books for setting neutral books - The HERO World Builder's Guide The Ultimate Guide to HEROic Combat Things like that.

This is a great thread, thanks for sharing all of you. I appreciate reading this as a reborn Hero gamer.

Having a GM focused book on just this topic would be amazing. The Hero System game books does imply quite a bit that the person running the game is an expert Hero System GM because it really doesn't do much as far as how to ease new players into the game and that can be intimidating. I am a GM although I haven't GM'd in a long, LONG time. I had experienced an rather unfortunate agoraphobic time period a couple years ago that wasn't any fun so I had stopped gaming for a long time but I am getting over it and I've always loved Hero System which is why I have bought it and will read the books. I am also one of those quirky people who enjoys reading these books for the sake of reading them and I've always liked text books so... but I am also a little OCD, and it's because of my OCD nature that doing all the heavy front loading stuff makes it rather difficult for me to really, really create a setting for using this game with. It's not as bad as it once was a few years ago, and I am approaching Hero System from a much different perspective now than I had in the past. So wish me luck.

for me there is no incentive whatsoever to actually roleplay them after I acquired them for the points to spend on them to make my character mechanically more powerful... trust me... after playing Fate a few times, after playing some Cortex Plus game sessions, Mutants and Masterminds with their Complication system, and a number of newer games that have come out the last few years... players like seeing their character's lives get Complicated. If they can get some Action Points during the game because their lives got more Complicated and then they can take these Action Points and use them as fuel to make their character's do some really cool actions... players will not only accept it, but look for opportunities to remind the GM about them. The current system has no incentive beyond character creation for anything like this IMO. And if a player chooses not to take any Complications and other players do, that player who doesn't will fall behind the curve as far as gaining Action Points and bonus XP is concerned. It would also be really easy to include rules for players to buy off Complications... all they'd have to do is tell the GM that the bonus XP they'd gain would be put into a special category of XP points meant for just that.

What makes a storytelling game a 'storytelling' game? I think all rpgs are story creation games at heart, even if the game mechanisms might all be about combat. I also think it's always up to the players to create that story. Sure some games do have game mechanisms that can inspire that and I wouldn't say that the World of Darkness Storytelling games has all that many game mechanisms that drive that. Fate Core and all Fate derived games have Aspects that cause both a lot of headaches and are truly amazing all at the same time but they do help with getting into the character... as does all Cortex Plus games, especially Smallville which, in my not so humble opinion, is one of the most amazing games of all time and there is no game with actual game mechanisms that do what Smallville does and the character generation process is... there is no other game really like it. When you make a character in this game, you Are invested. I think if Hero System could be set up in a way where players have the option to make characters in broad strokes instead of needing to know every minor detail up front then that would help a lot of people get into the game better I think. But... I am sort of at a loss as to how to go about doing this atm.

What could be done to help with Hero System becoming more 'story' friendly/focused and less a system of appearing to be like doing accounting? One thing I think that could be done is to revamp the Complications system completely, entirely taking away the focus on gaining character points during character creation and instead making them completely character/story focused elements of the character that the GM can use to complicate the character's lives and when he does the character gains bonus XP. The Complications can still keep everything more or less the same... making them have die rolls that the GM can roll to see how often they can come up in a adventure and things like that. Another thing this can lead to is reinforcing the Action Points economy where if a Complication comes up and has a negative effect on the situation/scene than that character gains a Action Point. This will lower a lot of front loaded complexity of character design while also hopefully inspiring players to be more open to the idea of seeing their character's in Complicated situations that make the story better.

Thanks for sharing that OSI model. I think if they did this and redid the entire Champions setting to something different because, let's face it, Champions is a Marvel universe clone the new setting was a brand new setting that matched at least some of the standards of book production that many gamers today have unfortunately come to expect... shiny hardcover, full color, glossy and if it was written in such a way that the setting was brought to the front and the system was second... That would probably be the best thing that could happen for this game system. This idea still matches with the one thing I've been saying from the beginning... change the perception and image of the game, reorganize it and rewrite it such a way where others can more easily get into it and although the basic of the game system is not changed at all... because the perception of the game is now different and more up to speed with today's games it's definitely probably that more people will be likely to give it a look and be more willing to play it. Create a brand new Universe. Create a Rifts/Fallout clone (thematically speaking, not literally), but a setting and world where you can different power levels within the same setting, wildly different genre's mashing together with different sources of powers like magic, divine, supers, psi and technology and make it a gritty world where whatever you create can be explained. Setting first, system second and make all the rules for the system the basic core rules absolutely necessary and needed for it to still remain Hero System. In this setting book, have a ton of premade powers that are just game effects and final costs and don't show the internal game math... repeat: DON'T SHOW THE INTERNAL GAME MATH. Just have a list of premade skills, perks, talents, and powers that fall within the different power categories and the game effect but for the love of god don't intimidate people with all the powers broken down into their itty bits. Instead of having all the Abilities internal math shown, it's so much easier on the eyes to just have the description of the Ability written out with just words... Like instead of seeing this ~ A- Tipsy Giant Potion: Aid STR 6d6 (Active Points 36); OAF Fragile (potion, - 1 1/4), Only works on characters who are drunk (-1), 4 Charges (-1); Total Cost: 8 pts... rewrite this mechanical confusion to something like ~ B- Tipsy Giant Potion: Cost: 8 pts (probably insert monetary cost as well for a setting with an in game monetary economy) Key notes: Fragile A potion that can be used 4 times before needing to be recharged that increases the person's STR by 6d6. This bonus STR fade at a rate of 6 STR per Recovery Phase (per Turn). The person drinking this potion must be drunk. To anybody who doesn't get Hero System... that A example of this potion reads like gibberish at a glance but the second is pretty simple to understand. The second says the exact same thing as the first but the internal points of the magical item don't get in the way. It just says exactly what it does and what's necessary. I mean... to somebody who doesn't get the intricacies of Hero System, that entire first example of the potion is confusing because they don't know what Active Points and Total Cost means and what all those fractions mean and how the points came out and... Basically put some flavor in the game. I think this example here is what I really mean by simplifying the game when it comes right down to it.

I intended no arrogance at all... I am just not a person who compares Hero System to Fuzion like others do as I have never really seen anything Fuzion related so I don't have a bias against it where for a lot of long time fans just the mention of the word Fuzion seems to bring a lot of vitriol to any discussion relating to it. That's all. The company that did Fuzion I guess released it for a reason that I know not and they thought it would be good and a lot of fans obviously ended up hating the game, or rather disliking it a lot, to the point that any consideration of anything about the game that could have been a possible positive to Hero as a whole is always disregarded by a lot of fans of Hero System. It's also possible that at the time that Fuzion came out players of the game just wasn't ready for such major changes... the paradigm of the game was built on a different premise so to speak... and that was a long time ago. Go forward a decade plus and the role playing hobby has seriously changed, it has expanded way beyond what it was before, and how people have changed to what they like and not like, and all that... It is possible that a game like Fuzion could do better now than it did back when it first came out. I am not saying it's a guarantee but it's possible. That's what I mean by the game being ahead of its time. It's like the power glove with Nintendo, which if you think about it is the same basic premise of the Wii controller... great idea that bombed back in the late 80s but jump ahead two plus decades and suddenly that same premise of using a remote motion controller to control the game on the tv screen clicked with people. You are right about the general education and mathematical skills going down though... our education system is rather not so good and it does nothing to really prepare anybody for life beyond high school but that's a discussion that's probably best on a different forum.

I don't see it as dumbing down... I see it as broadening it's appeal and making it easier to grasp, understand and play. The fact that anybody would look at a role playing game and come to equate making characters as doing taxes is pretty bad. I love the game and I can see where they are coming from. The books do read and appear like an encyclopedia or technical manual with a game inside it and the fact that anybody new has to really study the game to just make a character... for the rare few of us who actually like that that's great, but for the many many others who might otherwise play this game who choose not to because of that... well, that's not a good thing. Champions Complete was a step in the right direction, and I think Fantasy Complete will also help... but the overabundance of 5th and 6th edition's mega volumes didn't help the game much.

Someone asked me why change some of the nomenclature/wordage used in the game... Perfect example... What's easier to say to somebody... A) If you want to attack you need to roll 3d6 and add your Offensive Combat Value and then subtract your target's Defensive Combat Value and then if you roll under 11 you hit... or If you want to attack roll 3d6 and add Fighting and then subtract Evasion and if you roll under 11 you hit. The wordage of the second hypothetical is way easier to both speak, and help people envision in their minds. If you say Offensive Combat Value, you are putting more focus on the mechanistic elements of the character in an offensive way but to me the word Fighting represents my capability to Fight and the word Evasion represents my ability to get out of the way.