LoresLost

Okay, after looking at the latest shapeshift tread I was rereading the shapeshift entry in the 5ER and not having Ultimate Metamorph, I noticed the limitation “Affects Body Only” listed. This limitation is a -1/2 that the shapeshift is only the actual body of the individual who has the power and not their clothing or carried items. I also noticed that other body affecting powers did not have this limitation. I could see this limitation being used with growth, shrinking and possibly multi-form (Hulk anybody) as well. Maybe not to the level of shapeshift but to the -1/4 level.

My example: If I want to create the shrinker Dr. Elvin Lincoln on the Misfits of Science TV show from the mid 1980s, I would think I would get a greater 0 limitation for not being able to take equipment (or clothing) with the character. (Doc Lincoln carried Ken clothes with him so when he used his power he could be modest.)

My question would be to Herodom is this an actual missing official limitation or is it a campaign dependent limitation, or am I missing it totally by not having UMeta?

EDIT::

I was thinking the shredded effect for growth and some multiforms in my initial response as well as some to the resent Atom stories (May be a little Iron age). On rethinking CC is correct.

Re: Large Creatures Versus Head Shots

There's a lot of changes in 5th that I didn't like' date=' but that one is retarded on several levels. What are DCV penalties doing in the disadvantages box? DCV penalties for levels of Growth aren't good enough? Why does being big make you slower? Didn't anyone think through the game balance implications that we now have to discuss in this thread?[/quote']

 

Not meaning to butt in, but the 5ER says not to use the Power: Growth (or Shrinking) (0 END always on) for Larger(/Smaller) then normal creatures but to use a bunch of Disads, other powers and Skills to build them.

 

I was building a character both ways, a 'fay' (6 inch humanoid), to see which way was more cost effective and found that it costs breaks for a only slightly for the Always on Shrinking (approx 60 pts for 4 lvls w always on vs the disadds +8 DCV bonus + (Stealth 21-) + (Conselment 20- self only)) I seen this argument earlier this year in the rules forum and personally chalk it up to the same purpose as regeration being folded into healing, Instant Change folded into Transform, etc.

I can post my characters if you want to see it.

 

That is how the present official rules present Larger and Smaller then normal creatures(but then this is only a game and I would house much of it differently myself (If I where in game presently))

Re: Name for a school / style of magic...

I found no formal name but I did find this quote from The Golden Bough http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3623 that I thought would be helpful.

from Chapter 22 Section 5:

From this story it appears that the real name of the god, with which his power was inextricably bound up, was supposed to be lodged, in an almost physical sense, somewhere in his breast, from which Isis extracted it by a sort of surgical operation and transferred it with all its supernatural powers to herself. In Egypt attempts like that of Isis to appropriate the power of a high god by possessing herself of his name were not mere legends told of the mythical beings of a remote past; every Egyptian magician aspired to wield like powers by similar means. For it was believed that he who possessed the true name possessed the very being of god or man, and could force even a deity to obey him as a slave obeys his master. Thus the art of the magician consisted in obtaining from the gods a revelation of their sacred names, and he left no stone unturned to accomplish his end. When once a god in a moment of weakness or forgetfulness had imparted to the wizard the wondrous lore, the deity had no choice but to submit humbly to the man or pay the penalty of his contumacy.

This seems to indicate that this was the purpose of early organized magics.

Re: The Question write up?

I have no write up but based on what I remember of the DC run of the character:

• The Character is a Very good martial artist
  
• He is a reporter.
  
• He wares a 'faceless mask' and uses a gas to make it adhere
  
• The gas has some healing properties
  
• He is a Buddhist
  
• He out riddled the Riddler
  

Bare with me. I know this is general knowledge. He respects the Batman but calls him Monkey Man (He watch the Bat use a Monkey form on some thugs) This implies analyze forms.

He got his mask from a contact (gadgeteer) and the mask and gas were a 'failed' medical experiment. The mask can act as a filter (limited life-support) against disease and toxins

The present DC character is dying of lung cancer.

Them the fact as I know them.

Re: World without Menton

The dear Doctor Destroyer finally can unleash a group of genetically engineered mentalist based off of Menton's Genetic code with out him usurping the group, due to a resonance with him. They are utterly loyal to the (not so) good doctor and go about causing untold havoc with the world society.

OR

Menton was the only on keeping a bunch of petty personalities in politics from actually being worse then they where (For his own enrichment, and for a weird challenge). With out his influence all of hades breaks loose and we have a large number of political assassinations in the US and Western Europe using any and every means possible. Can our heroes stop the Societal Collapse in to anarchy?

Re: Fantasy Reproduction

A question that popped into my head: What of a wizard' date=' near-death, getting thrown in and transformed?[/quote']

 

Ogre Magi!!!! I just had to say it.

Re: Best and Worst Costume/Appearance Changes

Likes:

Superman Black (Resurrection/Return of Superman/Empiror Joker) (Yes I am wierd)

Kingdom Come Captain Marvel

Dawnstar costume

Dr StarngeFate

Dr Fate

Dislikes:

Superman Red/Blue (Electro-Superman)

early 70's Cosmic Boy

Current Lex Luthor

Re: Genocide

Is it realistic that people could have a "one-drop" rule which said that if someone had one identifiably African ancestor' date=' then they were not white, regardless of their actual pallor, but as long as people didn't look very Asian, they were still white?[/quote']

 

While things like the one drop rule happen, it was because of some form of identification (in this case a genealogical records). In the US south may light skin blacks passed them self off as white during segregation (and earlier) and inversely many dark skinned Europeans (Mediterranean immigrants) where treated as black in the US south. In South Africa (where I beleive the one drop rule is from) Asians where also treated differently from whites, less restrictions then blacks but still differently. If someone can SEE a difference they will use it to discrinate agaist the other. If I have dark skin and very curly hair I must be part black is the thought in the above socities and I will be treated poorly, even if I am from a good southern Italian family, who has not married out of Italy for a 1000 years. In a Marvel like anti mutant universe, If I have a freaky power, no matter the source, I should be suppected of being a mutant by the anti mutant crowd no matter the proof I give.

 

If it "waddles and quacks its a duck" argument is what I am making. Cyclops shoots rays from his eyes and otherwise looks normal. Ben Grimm looks like an accident at the brick plant. Cyclops has people trying to kill him cause he is different, why are not the same people trying to kill Ben. Why? Ben is just as freaky if not more so then Cyclops. And how do I know he did not kill the REAL Ben Grimm and claim that he was changed by a freak accident. And if he is the Real Ben, how do I know that he could hid his mutation until he got a power bump from the radiation accident.

 

In fact lets go further. The accident that made Ben Grimm the Thing should have killed him, but it did not. How did he survive? According to the Marvel rubber science, he had a quality that made him acceptable to change. My understading of the Marvel rubber genitics is that their are three groups of humanity, Gene stable Eternials, Gene unstable Devants and Gene latent normals. The Thing and Cyclops are both from the last group. Cyclops was born, nay, conceived with an active ablity that can be detected by some weird device to detect mutants. The Thing got his power by being bathed in cosmic radiation that should have killed him with radiation posioning.

 

In a congressional hearing, I don't have the FF comic (like contiuity means something in a comic book), Reed is able to detect people who could develop powers, they have latent powers, with a device he created. Cerberos can detect active power mutations but does not detect run of the mill genetic defects (true real life mutations) nor the latent power ablity. The latent power gene by our (real life, like that counts) defenintiton is a mutation. So what I am saying is groups that hate mutants would also see the latent power gene as a threat to the purity of humanity as well. So Ben, Reed, Sue and Johnny should not get any love from the anti-mutant geeks.

 

That was quite a lot, I hope their is some light and little heat.

Re: Genocide

Just don't let Richards know you've penetrated his cover story...

 

Joking aside, a question: assuming that Reed & Sue are not considered "mutants" because they weren't born with their powers, what does that make Franklin?

Besides an absurdly overpowered Deux Ex plot device with delusions of character, I mean.

I thought Franklin was potentally the worlds most powerful mutant (do to the freaky radiation that gave the FF their power. That was the reason that Reed hid (or still is hidding) his power and I believe he is even sheided from Ceribus (But that was way before House of M)

Re: Genocide

So you don't think "the normals" would be concerned/worried/afraid/enraged enough about people being born with ridiculous powers' date=' enough that a few people might want to band together against them? To be honest -- and I'll admit, maybe I'm just cynical -- I've always thought [i']anti[/i]-metahuman groups have been among the genre's most realistic trends.

 

I can far more easily believe the masses of humanity rising up against people with super powers, than embracing them.

I don't think the arguement is that such groups are not realistic in human attutide, but that in genre they are not realistic, meaning that they pick on certain people with power and not others. Marvel X books have people hissing booing and killing X-Men, but praising the freaky Mr. Fantastic and the Thing. The Genre is ... uneven... in its paranoia.

This is not to say such groups would not exist in a "realistic" (used loosly around human interactions or anything in a comicbook) world but they would be out to end any "threat" to humanity as they see it, be it the guy that shoots eye beams or streach like a rubber band. If he got his power from an accident of birth or just a radiation accident I would think a set of the population would be afraid of the freaks. And that subset would not be discrimating on how they got the power.

Re: Artifacts

Actually' date=' I thought it was a reference to Donald Blake's cane... before I remembered that Odin had released Thor from the geas that compelled him to take the form of a lame mortal when not battling evil.[/quote']

 

Re reading the OP, I think your right.

Re: Artifacts

BTW' date=' What's the walking stick in the OP about?[/quote']

 

I think he is thinking of the stellar power collection rod of Starman I and V and the Star Spangle Kid I and II. It allows them to manipulate gravity and electro-magintism if I remember correctly. Cool Toy. It is a DC gadget of extreme power. (Starman V was the one who had his father (Starman I) make it into a weird walking stick, actually more of a wizard's staff)

 

Also would the Green Lanterns ring even be on earth, assuming the Gaurdians or Watchers are still around.

 

I could also see Vandle Savage using the Illuminati to control this new age with superiour technology/magic.

 

Also Victor Von Doom might of used his technomagery to survive and now rules central Europe with it.

Re: Artifacts

Some of the immortal characters might conceivably still be alive. Let's see...

 

Thor (obviously)

Firebird (at least hinted at in Busiek's run of the Avengers)

Vision (maybe)

Ultron (maybe)

Phoenix

Wonder Man (does the ionic energy make him immortal? -- in which case Nefaria and Atlas, too)

Hercules

Ghost Rider

Wolverine

Circe (and any of the Eternals)

 

 

On the DC side of things

Wonder Woman (?)

Martian Manhunter (?)

Hawk & Dove (the Lords of Chaos & Order are immortal, so their avatars might be as well)

Superman (who knows how Kryptonian physiology really works?)

 

 

More as I think of it...

DC side as well:

Vandle Savage

Phatom Stranger

Ra's Al Ghul ? (If he has not become immune to the Lazerus Pit)

Most of the Amazons

Orion

Mr. Mircle (Scott Free)

Big Bertha

Sentinal (Alan Scott)

Dr Fate

Shazam/Marvel/Billy Batson (The Wizard of the Power)

Ion

Etrigan the Demon

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

Looking at this topic, I have an image from the trailer for the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy movie where the human female (whos name I forgot) trys to restrane Zaphod from activating the Heart of Gold by grabing his arms,. This fails because she does not grab his third arm. Is this ability, being harder to restrain, worth 5 points.

I see both arguments here, just as a larger then normal character built with the size templates have to pay for their longer reach and hex wide sweeps, you are asking a character to pay for their enhanced ablities due to their extra limb/s.

Paying for the extra limb would be considered a penalty for a releated group of ablities.

But is this five point ablity just the cost of being harder to restrain the limbs of the character is my other thought (a minor adder for natural limbs, harder then normal to restrain).

Looking at the extra limbs as an adder for being harder to restrain actually makes sense to me, the more I think of it.

Re: Need an organization name

Vanderbuild Advanced Scientific and Technology Foundation (aka VAST Found. )

Re: Vampires in Supers Setting

When I think Vampire in a Superhero world I think DCs 'I, Vampire'. A Vampire driven to fight his own kind. When I think of cinimatic monsters in a Super world I think of DC's Wierd War Tales and the Creature Commandos.

Sorry I was a DC geek.

But I Like a government agency 'creating' monsters to fight monsters theme.

Re: Rare meteorite found in Kansas field

Nah, it's not green and glowing.

 

It's Blue and glowing

So what your saying is that you can ward off Bizzaro?

Me am impressed.

Re: ideas for dead alternate worlds

The two worlds I think of when you say 'dead alternate worlds' are:

1. Dead world from 2000 AD Judge Dredd. Dead world is where the undead Judges Death, Mortus and Fire come from. They judged their world and convected everone of the crime of life.
   
2. Wally World from the JLI. Wally world is where the Exstremist come from, all but one are androids of the original group. Under the the twisted leadership of the only non android they killed everyone except 'Wally' (Walt Disney character in suspended animation). Who the JLI rescued.
   

My weird little list

Re: Realistic daily provisions

That 8 pounds of water sounds right from another historical perspective. For a long time' date=' the Royal Navy daily water ration was a gallon. 1 gallon = 3.785 liters; at 20 C, water density is 0.998 g/cm3, gives 3.78 kg, which is 8.33 pounds.[/quote']

 

Better be, The Gallon (US) is based on a wine taxation measurement (an eight pound wine cask) or so I have been told. The British increased the weight to ten pounds of wine in the early 1800 (thus the difference between the US Gallon and the Imperial Gallon measure of weight.

EDIT: Replaced Pound with Gallon where appropriate.

 

The wine' date=' fluid or liquid gallon is the standard U.S. gallon since the early 19th century. The wine gallon, which some sources relate to the volume occupied by eight medieval merchant pounds of wine, was at one time defined as the volume of a cylinder six inches deep and seven inches in diameter, i.e. 6·3½²·π = 230.90706 in³. It had been redefined during the reign of Queen Anne, in 1706, as 231 in³ exactly (3 × 7 × 11 in³), which is the result of the earlier definition with π approximated to 22⁄7. Although the wine gallon had been used for centuries for import duty purposes there was no legal standard of it in the Exchequer and a smaller gallon (224 in³) was actually in use, so this statute became necessary. It remains the U.S. definition today.[/quote']

 

I am just full of equally useless knowledge. (And I actually learned this from another source but Wikipedia is easier (and safer) to cut and paste from.)

Re: Batman vs Midnighter

Note, I believe in the comic Captain Atom: Armageddon vol. 6, a 'Void' possessed Captain Atom fried both Midnighter and Apollo in two frames (and Jenny Sparks as well). After defeating rest of the Authority, Majestic, and the Wild Cats in previous comics, just as the Good Captain. This lead to an appearent reboot of the that Universe...

Re: Phantom Stranger

you guys mentioned Constantine' date=' is he actually part of the DC Universe?[/quote']

 

When he appeared in Swamp Thing and the Books of Magic(1) he was sort of in the mainstream DC Universe (He appears with the Mystics brought to help merge the remaining universes in Crisis on Infinate Earths). And he is a former boyfriend of our favorite Mystic mind washer Zatanna (according to the books of Magic)

 

The Books of Magic(1) have a scene where he is in a stand off with a number of Mystic supervillians (Flex Faust and a number of others) and Constantine makes them back down, He scared them ********.("The Witch and the boy come with me"...) He appaeratly came back from a battle with elephants, mad gods and a large number of Ninja (according to Deadman) that the Trench Coat Brigade won in India.

 

Of course so much retconning happening in DC and the transfer to Vertico might of changed all of that.

 

***(1)Books of Magic original 4 book Miniseries

Re: Future submarine warfare?

This thread reminds me of some Traveller material I read on the "wet" navy and submarines. Subs where used as mobile anti orbital launch platforms, but could be detected by mason and neutrino detection systems used on Traveller capital ships so the subs used very advance battery systems to run during combat and use fusion reactors for recharge and to fire the spinal mounted Mason cannon at enemies in orbit. ( Mason cannons in Traveller fired through most defenses to cause internal damage (it ignored intervening mater)Only Black and White Globe Generators could stop a mason gun )

But for the actual question posted:

So for a pure sub based story I would go with small fusion reactors, magnetic inductance drives, 60 + knots subsurface speed, underwater cites (in pressure domes), for basic technology. Addtionally, I would use advance Magnetic anomaly detection systems to find most other subs and cities (active SONAR being outlawed due to environmental damage.) I would use the standurd plot points dealing with under sea mining, political intrigue, pirates, business intrigue, lost cities and environmental plots.

I would Use the Hunt for Red October, Voyage to the Bottom of Sea, and pulp under sea adventures for ideas, if I where to run such a campaign. May be some elements of the Man from Atlantis would be used as well to add to the adventure of it all.

I think spewed enough random thoughts on subs in Sci-Fi environments for a few minutes and may expand them if I feel I was unclear. or find a glaring grammar, spelling or logical error (all of which are common for me.)

Re: Magic System Question #1

Thanks for the clarification. But I still seem to be a little confused. Does FREd = 5E or the old Champions Hardcover?

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).

Am I confused yet

EDIT:

So this is the break down as I understand it

FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)

5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)

BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.

/EDIT

Re: How effective do you feel weapons should be

Ah' date=' so like GI Joe and Transformers level where hand weapons really are a threat to space ships. Got it.[/quote']

 

Minor Quible: Some of the Transformers were Space Ships... and their side arms were vehicle mounted weapons for all intent and purposes.

Re: automatons

But if you simply moved living things a million years through time' date=' without movement or erosion (mechanical wear) or growth/reproduction (chemical interactions), they wouldn't wear out either. IMO you're excluding environmental conditions from one example that have to apply to both, or neither, for your analogy to be consistent.[/quote']

 

True, this is a comparison of apples to oranges on my part.

 

The one point I had in mind when I wrote that though is that it is easier to get a machine in to a state of stasis then a living organism. I could, given time and equip create an environment where a device would have minimal degradation, such as a environment lacking oxygen (replaced/displaced by some other gas) at some static temperature. I could maintain that state at much lower cost (of energy) then a stasis system for a living organism.

 

Another point I was trying to get to is through maintainance it is possible to extend the life of certain automations and other machines for greater then there designed life. (This is the point of the air craft examples).

 

I realize in game terms this is actually a mute point, because this is now in the realm of the handwave mechanic and GM fiat.

 

Also am not saying that automation need to take any or all life support (In fact I would say that it should not in most cases, extremes would destroy most automatons and the act operation to destruction is what the "takes no stun" advantage is for.)