Killer Shrike

ignore--double post

Originally posted by nHammer

Personally, I think non-gamers shouldn't vote (or shouldn't be encouraged to vote). If you have no idea what the games are, you shouldn't vote.

agreed.

Originally posted by Monolith

Killer Shrike, I think you are making a big deal out of something which is not that important. The chips in the cars are just part of the ambiance of the campaign world. You are looking at one small aspect of the campaign and trying to give it major signifigance. If the GM wants the badguys to get away, they have chips. If the GM does not want the badguys to get away, they don't. It's really just that simple. It's a small plot device within with a much greater whole.

 

I beg to differ; Im not making a big deal out of something that is not important; I am illustrating a detail which I personally dont like because I feel that it imposes to many assumptions that I dont agree with or dont want to deal with in my campaign. It may not be important to you, but you are not the arbiter of importance (nor am I or anyone else). If you find it to be of no consequence then please feel free to disregard my remarks on the subject rather than trying to convince me that my opinion is intrinsically wrong because it differs from your own.

 

I too can think of many different circumstances wherein the chips could be part of some plot or another. Thats not the issue. The issue is I personally dont think the potential story hooks intrinsic to the concept is worth the annoyance of dealing with the logistics that back it up. If you do, c'est la vie. Personally, Im interested in other peoples takes on the subject and will consider all such ideas forwarded before I arrive at a final decision on whether or not to include them in my campaign.

 

 

If I did include them however, my first impulse would be to introduce them as a new technology rather than one that is in place, and see how the PCs react to it. It would be, in my opinion in real life, a violaion of civil rights and personal freedom, but any given character of mine if I were a player might feel differently. As the GM I think it might be a useful character-definer to see where individual heros lie on axis of personal freedom and privacy versus public safety. Afterall many Supers wear masks and maintain Secret IDs; they are private people and would naturally oppose anything which directly infringed on thier privacy. Alternately I might do the opposite, have a big civil rights suit raging in the background story, eventually touching off demonstration, which the police might react to with a tinge too much force causing a riot etc etc, unless of course the heroes intervene.

 

 

As far as your players, if they cannot get along with other superheroes, then that is either a fault by you for constantly making the other teams adversarial, or its the fault of the players for not having any idea of what the comic book genre is basically about. At times the JLA and the JSA might clash, but for the most part each team respects the other. The same goes for the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. That's just part of the genre.

 

Hey, thanx for the automatic fault finding.

 

I have concerns about the iconic characters being homebased in the same city as my PCs and at the same relative point level and ding ding ding ding your Sense Fault, targeting ability goes off. Obviously that cant be a valid concern; I must be a rotten GM, or have rotten players, or both.

 

For starters, the comic book genre is too broad and implemented too differently by different talents and publishing houses to be about any one thing.

 

Its a common urge to be #1 for a lot of human beings, and to gain recognition and it extends to roleplaying as well. If you drop a party of PCs played by real people into a city with a well-entrenched group of popular 'official' superheroes who are as powerful or slightly less powerful than the PCs, and furthermore are the iconic characters of the very game, you are going to have to deal with something at some point. There is no telling what that something or somethings might be because players are too random and unpredictible to get a 100% bead on them at all times, but you can be safe in the estimate that it will play a roll in the campaign and can either anticipate it and arrive at an operating methodology to handle it before hand or deal with it when it comes up.

 

Me, Im an anticipator. I cant predict exactly what will come of it, but I know that if I present that situation as given that there will be ramifications. It doesnt matter whether the PCs get along with the Champions or not, are friendly rivals or not, are antagonistic or not. What matters is that it is an element that may have a significant effect on my campaign unless compensated for.

 

Lets say they get buddy buddy with the Champs. Everyone is hunky-dory; all the heroes have cookouts and play horseshoes. When the PCs get in trouble and need help, who are they going to call? Why, their peers of course, the Champions! Vice versa, when the Champs bite off more than they can chew.....hey PCs, help us out! Eventually, since they are all such good buddies, some bright player will say 'Hey! why dont we merge with the Champions and pool our resources! Or perhaps vice versa the Champs invite the PCs to join thier organization. Or perhaps not, but the PCs need to keep up with the Jonses. The Champs have a tricked out base in the city, if they dont get one too (or one just as good) then they must not be as good as the Champs. Does the rest of the city see them as second-raters? Are they portrayed a benchwarmers, or worse wannabees? What effect does that have on the morale of the party? On the other hand, if they pull off daring deeds, do they gain greater recognition than the Champs, or are the Champs doing daring deeds of their own, and if so why didnt the PCs get a crack at them 1st? Can they never truly excel, or do they eventually exceed the Champions in capability and accomplisments? Do they become hailed as the true heroes of the city, or do they find themselves in the position of constantly being watched by the media and therefore the public for any sign that they arent really as heroic as the beloved Champs? Etc etc etc etc.

 

Good or bad, all the various permutations of interaction with the Champs is an element of the campaign and will dictate to some extent how the storyline flows. It will have a logical overun into the actual story that I want to tell which, to maintain versimilitude, must be accounted for putting restrictions upon my freedom as the GM. It also requires me to keep the Champs up to date to maintain the desired level of equitude between the PCs and the Iconics.

 

A lot of those problems go away if the Iconics are a) in another city or way out of the PCs league (more or less points depending on starting points level)

 

As to another point about multiple teams within the city, who says that your team might not be national, international, dimensional, or just local? That is really up to you and the players to decide.

 

To an extent yes, but to another extent the constraints of the game world also determine that as well. With 1000+ point villains running around, the various restrictions of being unliscenced superheroes, dealing with UNTIL and foreign governments, 350 point characters are less likely to be believably viable as globetrotting heroes IMO. Also, I really want to explore the city based heroing schtick first and get the PCs used to thier environment rather than skip around the cosmos immediately. After theyve got some salt on em as a team, then its time to open up the horizon and step it out to parts beyond. Again, thats my desired approach in this campaign.

 

My only point on the matter was that your case that a bunch of super teams existed side by side superheroing in NYC in the Marvel Universe was flawed because none of those teams worked solely out of NYC or even spent 50% of thier time in that city. The New Warriors came closest to being a 'NYC' team, and they were easily the weakest of the teams you listed lacking the long range transport of the bigger/older teams.

 

Also, the X-teams were not based out of NYC, with the exception of X-Factor. They were based out of upstate NY and only ventured into the city on occasion; they spent most of thier time wandering around the globe and beyond, including the New Mutants who were only marginally a 'superteam' as such.

 

You are making an assumption that 350 point heroes are newbies who just crawled out of their diapers. I assume that some 350 point heroes are new, some are well-established, and some are veterans. Part of the reason the point totals for the game were raised was so that the players would have more begging options, allowing them to be something besides brand new heroes.

 

{looks around} Hmm.....when did I make the statement that I assumed that 350 point characters are necessarily newbies? Quite the opposite I assure you. I assume the same things that you do about 350 point characters. They may be crusty, learning, or wet behind the ears as befits the character concept; its just a yardstick of current effectiveness and thats all.

 

I believe you need to view the CU as you would any other comic book universe. Each major city has multiple teams, and each of those teams operates independantly within it's own little sphere. If the New Mutants and the New Warriors can both survive within New York, then the Champions and the "Defenders" can survive within Millennium City.

Again, the New Mutants were in upstate New York, and further to the best of my knowledge had disbanded prior to the New Warriors being chartered in order to form X-Force (or very soon thereafter). I vaguely recall an episode where elements of X-Force teamed up with the New Warriors, I believe in an Annual. Regardless, they didnt coexist in the same city. The Avengers and the New Warriors did however, and there was quite a bit of amusing byplay therein. Marvel Boy for example was recruited into the New Warriors after he failed to gain membership with the Avengers because he was too green. Rage was an honorary Avenger in training until he helped the Warriors sneak into the Avengers mansion and steal a quin-jet somewhere around issue 24 or 5. There was an instance where the Warriors were involved in something and the Avengers stepped in at the end and basically got all the media coverage/glory causing aggravation among the Warriors. It was always very clear cut, the senior group was way out of the Warriors league. The Warriors also interacted with another NY group to some extent: Power Pack. For awhile the oldest Powers kid took all the other kids abilities and called himself Power Pax so he could run around with the warriors. The Warriors also interacted with the Fantastic Four on occasion, Ben Grimm is an old friend of Vance Astrovik aka Marvel Boy from thier time on the powered wrestling circuit together, and IIRC Rich Rider aka Nova had some history with FF as well. Again, the FF was usually involved in much bigger concerns and IIRC at the time was going through fluctuating memberships as well.

 

Besides, look at it this way, be thankful your game is not in New York. There are 4 established superhero teams in that CU city.

This is true. However, my concern isnt having another team in the city, its having the ICONIC team in the same city at the same points level as the PCs. I am concerned about what treatment I want to give them as central characters to the default storyline and how much of an element I want them to be in my campaign. I would care less about it if the Sentinels or one of the other 'mentioned' groups was in the city; its the fact that it is The {pronounce THEE -- cue the music} CHAMPIONS!!!!! {crescendo music and cut} which concerns me not the fact that its a another team.

 

YMMV, etc etc.....

OK, here is the preliminary pass at a D&D 3e to 5th Ed HEROs conversion. This is slanted towards high fantasy (particularly at the higher end), as appropriate to the D&D Millieu. YMMV. Keep in mind this is an 'Alpha' version, untested and unpolished.

 

Starting off, XP to Points

 

There is one major factor which complicates doing a level to point conversion in 3e; namely the level stacking rules. Not all levels in D&D 3e are created equal, and there is no rule that consistently indicates at a global level which levels for a particular class are also-rans and which ones indicate measurable gains.

 

Many levels in many classes are pass-thrus; you have to take them to get to better abilities (class-features) only available at the higher levels. In HEROs this erratically results in some 'levels'' costing more in points than others depending on the classes in question, which makes a fixed ratio difficult to arrive at.

 

Part of this problem is the additional confusion introduced into a conversion effort by the multiclassing rules. A 3rd level character may have 1, 2, or 3 different classes. Futher most D&D 3e classes give thier biggest 'hit' at 1st level, granting the basic framework features of the class and usually at least one special ability which might be quite expensive to replicate in HEROs but which in D&D are not differentiated from a character that took 3 levels in the same class.

 

Thus the Fighter 1/Sorceror 1/Ranger 1 will probably point out much higher than the Fighter 3 or the Sorceror 3 or (almost certainly) the Ranger 3. In D&D this is theoretically balanced as an opportunity cost at later levels, offering the multiclasser early flexibility and scope but at the cost of the pure power a focused single-class character can hope to wield at higher level. The dedication shown by single-classing pays off later, assuming all classes are equal (sic-which we all know they arent really, but as a logical exercise indulge me ).

 

Prestige classes muddy this up even further.

 

{BTW: Dont get me wrong, IMO the new multiclassing rules were one of the best things in 3e as far as Im concerned, but they do make conversion more difficult. }

 

 

Also, the way the D&D 3e XP methodology is set up, characters tend to level FAST at the begining, and start slowing down around 5th or 6th level whereas in a point based system like HEROs growth tends to be slow and gradual but constant.

 

However, regardless of how fast or slow characters tend to level in D&D 3e relevant to thier current level in play, theoretically it supposedly takes 13.3 equal CR encounters to 'Level up'. Of course, 1 suicidal encounter significantly above the parties CR can see all the survivors level (and then some) in a single encounter and also, the definition of an encounter is a tad fuzzy (one DMs encounter is another DMs routine interaction) but for our purposes we will take the "13.3 Equal Encounters as Part of a Party of 4 Equal PCs" comcept as a constant measure of advancement in D&D 3e and try to find a parrallel in HEROs.

 

Following that logic, a 20th level character has seen approximately 250 equal challenge encounters as part of a party of 4 equal level PCs.

 

So, if you assume a constant 13.3 encounters per level-up across all levels, and further assume an average of 3.3 equal encounters per 6 hours of play (arbitrarily; works out to a level every 4 6-hour sessions on average, and most sessions go 6 to 8 hours IME, resulting in a level every 3 or 4 weeks of play on average), and you also assume that most HEROs sessions will see a character get 3 experience points on average, you can basically say 1 encounter = 1 HEROs xp.

 

Thus there is a solid correlation between Encounters and HEROs character points.

 

You might recall the 250 encounters measure mentioned above for a 20th level character. Well, 250 encounters = 250 points. 250 is a nice HERO-ish number, but 13.3 isnt. The HERO System likes increments of 5 best. Applying that, If we go with a series of 15 even /10 odd and start 1st level off at +10 experience points on top of whatever we decide is the starting point total, that works out to 250 points in the HERO System.

 

 

So all thats left is to determine a starting point level of our HEROs characters and then simply add 250 to the starting points to determine what a 20th level character should be and fill in the gaps between.

 

1st level D&D 3e characters tend to be a tad squishy, but taking a 1st level commoner as the base they are definitely beyond the bounds of the average man. I personally like 125 as a starting point as it is what I have used in the past and it usually gives enough points to round out a capable heroic character but not so many that said character is ready to charge out into the world without a care.

 

Further, since D&D is a Disadvantage-less system, and most characters coming in from D&D arent going to have much in-place to draw on aside from personality and background quirks to define Disadvantages in HEROs, I have found it convenient in the past to go with a lower than normal Disadvantage to base point ratio in the interests of expediency (but see below). Thus, I favor 75 Base points + 50 max Disadvantages to total up to 125.

 

Some players, whether vets to the HERO System, or more character oriented than most D&Ders, want to benefit from the richer character development offered by HEROs and want to take a full load of Disadvantages. Also, its handy to have a higher ceiling when building package deals. Therefore players can take up to a maximum of another 25 points in disadvantages if they are in Pacakage Deals for upto another 25 additional points at 1st level.

 

So if a character starts at 75 base, takes 50 Disadvantage points, and we add the +10 starting Experience to keep our 10/15 progression even that character will be 135 points. However, a starting character might range from 85 to 160 pts total depending on how Disadvantaged they are, which is a wide range but encourages players to use the Disadvantage system (an alien concept to many players if you are recruiting them from D&D 3e) and the use of package deals (which translates into campaign buy in typically).

 

 

Finally, as a character advances in D&D 3e he is more likely to pick up multiclass levels, including prestige classes, and to join organizations/groups (which also is often expressed as a prestige or class combo), so we need some wiggle room to make this work.

 

Most classes to include prestige classes will be organized into package deals any way for ease of use and conformity to some common theme. So, I suggest we allow additional optional Disadvantage points to be taken throughout character progression at stepped increments to facilitate switching into new 'prestige class' equivalents.

 

Nominally, I think at levels 4,8,12,16 and 20 a character may take up to 25 more points of Disadvantages for a yield in a like number of character points as long as those Disadvantages are taken as part of a Package Deal.

 

Thus at 20th level, a character which has taken all possible Disadvantages will be a 525 point character, whereas one who has taken the assumed minimum of 50 points of Disadvantages will be 375. To my mind this accurately captures the disparity in character effectiveness that can occur in D&D 3e depending on the leveling decisions made by thier players, even at the same exact levels. YMMV of course.

 

Without further ado, here is the Alpha Level to Points chart. Keep in mind that the idea isnt to strait jacket HEROs characters by imposing a level structure, but rather to provide a consistent measuring stick and to facilitate direct coversions from D&D 3e.

 

 

Level	D&D Xp (1000s)	HEROs Points	Optional Package Deal Disadvantages
1	0	135*	+25
2	1	150	0
3	3	160	0
4	6	175	+25
5	10	185	0
6	15	200	0
7	21	210	0
8	28	225	+25
9	36	235	0
10	45	250	0
11	55	260	0
12	66	275	+25
13	78	285	0
14	91	300	0
15	105	310	0
16	120	325	+25
17	136	335	0
18	153	350	0
19	171	360	0
20	190	375	+25
*75 Base + 50 Disadvantages + 10 Experience
Step = +15 even/ +10 odd, +25 Optional Disadvantages every 4 levels

 

 

 

OK, that was a lot of typing. More later, must go soak fingers in Palmolive

Re: Monolith: Yes, Im sure there are chippers that provide countermeasures, however much like satellite and cell phone chippers this is not a static affair. It’s a constant back and forth as authorities counter the countermeasures and vice versa, and back and forth. Chippers in real life get away with it because its a peripheral crime in the commercial sector that doesn’t see much enforcement, but in MC anti-chipping a car is much more of a municipal infringement and you can rest assured that cops will take more stringent measures to stop it.

 

Its not insurmountable, its just another level of complexity that needs to be considered. How did they villains make their get away? In their vehicle? Why couldn’t the authorities shut it down remotely? Because it was anti-chipped? OK, lets follow that lead -- where did they get the anti-chip? Lets track that down to a location and a person. Start nosing around the black chipmarket. Maybe trace it down to a seller. Do we prosecute all of these black marketeers as we go or do we stay focused on the real culprits and leave them to the tender mercy of the cops, or not report them at all? OK, assuming we collar the right guy, get him to talk. Where did he sell the chips at? Is it a place the villains are likely to return? Did he hear anything pertinent said in passing? Any other useful info? Assuming he did, follow up on that. Assuming he didn’t, what now? Etc etc etc....

 

It’s the sort of niggling detail that can pull a session off course. Now, if the intention is to provide an investigative style adventure then that’s all for the better, but if the intention was to have resolved-by-superhuman-capability style then you've failed at that because the PCs spend the session flailing around doing mundane police work. Further, if you didn’t see it coming and aren’t good at on-the-fly GMing, then you may have stepped all over it in your attempts to lay the rail in front of the train as the PC-express steams forward.

 

Of course, once it is established that, yeah yeah the bad guys can get their hands on blackchipped cars and its not worth pursuing because its a cold trail, then no big deal except that it begs the question why have the chips involved at all. They only restrict law-abiding citizens. Its like gun control; criminals can still get their hands on guns and restricting them only creates a market for illegal weapons that sell at a premium thus enriching/empowering the criminals selling them so that they can commit bigger crimes or establish themselves. Money can’t buy Justice, but it can buy an acquittal. This introduces a frustration point for the PCs and becomes a source of bitter humor. Why cant the cops stop Rico the Illegal Street Racer and his pink-slip posse? Duh, because they blackchip their cars and the cops aren’t equipped to handle high-speed pursuit because they are 'a thing of the past'. Enter the PCs! Woohoo! The superheroes can help the community out by putting a stop to adolescent thrill seekers with tricked out rice burners! No time for the likes of Grond, we have to stop teenies with too much time and money on their hands from ruining their lives by wrapping a car around a center divider at 100 mph! How exciting! Heroic, certainly; Superheroic.....maybe once, as a lead up to something more epic or as a 'character piece' showcasing a particular hero staying in touch with his roots and maintaining his 'street cred'.

 

Also, I just can’t believe that the American citizens of Detroit would not strenuously object to such an invasion of their privacy. Who really wants Big Brother to know everywhere they have driven for up to the last 10 years? Also, are the chip records admissible as evidence in court? I.e. can they be used to prove that a person was in an area at a certain time in say a robbery or murder investigation/trial? Habeas Chipus? Divorce proceedings? "We can place you outside the apartment of your mistress every Wednesday night for the last 6 months Mr. Williams. You might as well just sign the settlement and save yourself the embarrassment."

 

Its just one of those details that, IMO, raises more issues than it’s worth.

 

 

RE: Iconics: As far as running iconics, it depends on the game. In a full-blown supers game, its very tempting to use them because they are so intertwined with the story line usually. Further, supers are like Movie Stars in their high-profile exposure. They are part of the pop-culture of their setting. For example, if you don’t use the Champions at all, who takes Sapphires place? What about all the references to Witchcraft in the Mystic World sections? Do Harmon Industries go away? The more reclusive/odd ball heroes (like the other two Champions) are easier to drop of course but not completely without impact.

 

RE: Multiple teams in one city; NY/Manhattan: Yes and no. All of the teams you cite were not local heroes; they were all regional, global, or even multi-dimensional. They hung their hats in NYC, but they were actively superheroing all over the place. I don’t get the feeling that the Champions are quite as globetrotting. Granted, they've got the quin-jet wannabe, but still....At 350 points, the Champs would also have trouble going up against any of the listed teams except maybe the New Warriors (and even then, Firestar, Nova and Namorita were pretty powerful, Speedball was a massive loose cannon, Justice developed into a very durable TKer, and Rage was much more of a brick than Ironclad; Nightthrasher was questionable but the rest of the regulars were pretty hard core. Ok, maybe if you selected Nightthrasher, Turbo, early Marvel Boy vice Justice, Speedball before he learned a little control, and Hindsight Lad as the representative line up for the New Warriors, the Champions would win the day.

 

I know my players, and if the Champions are in the same town as them they are not going to be content to peacefully coexist. They will expect and attempt to engage in some level of interaction with them, whether friendly or not. I get the feeling that they would take it amiss if I removed the group entirely, as they in general like the iconics and subconsciously want something to serve as a yardstick in game, Im sure.

 

Its not a major issue, but it is something that requires some thought. Granted, it’s easy enough for me to say that the Champs are in some other city like NYC or Chicago, or even Philly. All are close enough geographically that if interaction is desired, it is feasible. What Ill prolly do though it add 100 to 150 points to the Champs and have them be 'the big leaguers', often gone fighting higher scale evils. They may even enter into a patronage of the PCs, glad to have someone they can trust to 'hold down the fort' as it were. This also gives the PCs something to aspire to 'one day, maybe Ill be good enough for the Champions!' or to resent 'we do all the grunt work, they swoop in at the last minute and get all the glory'.

Wow. I picked up MC on the way home from work yesterday and read it straight thru to the end (finishing up at 3am {yawns, rubs eyes, gropes for coffee}).

 

All in all, a very satisfying read. Not so dense as to be a) imposing or restrictive, but detailed enough to get the creative juices flowing and offer a solid framework for adventure. I'd give it a 4.5 of 5 overall.

 

I particularly liked all the little in jokes, particularly the send up to Seeker (the hackneyed background crack left me chuckling), and then flipping a few more pages and running across the cover illo of Seeker getting choked out was really amusing, although I think it would have been funnier if it was run in-line with the text mentioning him instead of separated.

 

There are only a few grouses, and they are mostly of a conceptual nature.

 

The 1 thing that really bothers me about MC is that the city itself is so utopian. There just doesn’t seem to be much room for criminal activities. With the chipped cars making it impossible to get around by car in the pursuit of unlawful ends, the access to the city so heavily controlled, and the preponderance of social factors discouraging crime (such as the density of the superhuman population, upscale neighborhoods, and a well equipped police force) it seems to rule out a lot of story angles, relegating quite a bit of action to the suburbs and surrounding municipalities rather than Millennium City itself. Basically, MC is a modern day fortress. Insidious plots are more likely than direct confrontation in the city itself unless the antagonist is grossly powerful. This is friendly to the criminal organizations such as PSI and VIPER, but less friendly to the average super villain.

 

The second thing that Im not crazy about is that the iconic supers of the Champions Universe are in Millennium City, and more importantly are 350 point characters give or take. What does that mean to my PC group if I want to base the story in MC? Are the Champions still around? Does the city need 2 similarly sized and powered groups? How does that affect the status quo since the Champs are pretty embedded in the city infrastructure? Are they rivals, in which case how to get over the fact that Defender and Witchcraft particularly are such straight arrows (I mean, Defender is so true-blue and even handed that to be a serious actual rival (as opposed to a friendly rivalry) the PCs would have to be at least slightly flawed in their heroism)? Do they not exist at all, leaving a vacuum for the PCs to fill? Something in between? I.e., did they exist but disbanded or died 2 years ago? Disappeared mysteriously (and thus may return in the future)? If the Champs were 500+ pointer Avenger-level powerhouses they might conceivably coexist with the PCs in the same city, since they would a) be more wide ranging (perhaps even global) in their activities, leaving the day to day local hero-ing to the bush-leaguers (350 pointer PCs), or concerned with bigger threats. However, all of the possible solutions aside from direct coexistence require a departure from the cannon of the new CU. I don’t have any issues with this myself, but altering such a core element of the cannon can have a lot of consequences; it makes it a chore to censor new material to retcon/omit their presence, and more significantly places restrictions on shared GM's --other GMs would have to a) be informed of cannon alterations and abide by them and thus restrict their own storytelling options or ignore them invalidating yours. In short, I wish that the iconics had been handled a little differently.

 

However, those two gripes aside, its a fabulous product and lives up to the new standard that the DOJ has brought to the game. Those guys go to 11, no question.

I voted yesterday, and will inform my players this Saturday when I see them next of the effort and see if they are willing to vote as well.

 

However, I must admit that Im a little non-plussed by the whole idea. Ive never heard of a yearly award that is a combination of popular and peer votes.

 

Ive always thought that HERO Games is pretty widely known, as CHAMPIONS if nothing else. Most players that Ive talked to have at least heard of it, even if they havent heard anything definitive about it.

I did a 2nd edition AD&D to 4th edition HEROs conversion several years ago that saw a lot of play.

 

Its at (EDIT: ) http://www.FantasyHERO.com

 

I have taken a few passes at a 3e D&D to 5th HEROs, but nothing concrete as of yet. Recently I got to thinking about it again. The only real hold up is that the level structure of 3e D&D got flatened so that all classes have the same advancement per experience, which pretty much scraps my old conversion which was based on an AD&D Exp to HEROs points comparison. This enabled the Magic system to work, because higher level Mages had more XP than thier equal level brethren. This I was able to have everyone start off at the same baseline (125 pts IIRC) and then scale accordingly.

 

Now that a 15th level spellcaster has the same amount of Exp as a 15th level warrior, it becomes harder to balance the overhead of a spellcasting framework.

 

I have come up with a rough draft Active Points per spell level structure to be fitted into a VPP, but have not had the opportunity to flesh it out or test it.

 

There are also some incongruities in 3e D&D that when brought forward into HEROs costs a lot of points. The biggest offender I stumbled across was the Leadership feat. Characters with a high Cha and/or contributing factors can have a Cohort that is nearly as good as themselves. In the HERO System, buying a Follower that is only slightly less powerful than oneself is not inexpensive. Further, Leadership also provides a fair number of chumps as well. That one feat takes a ton of points to approximate in HEROs, but another feat like Weapon Focus is literally a direct map to a 2 pt +1 OCV with Weapon X CSL in HEROs. Also, Leadership can be taken multiple times.

 

I intend to run a HEROs based D&D esque game soon and need to stop procrastinating and get something done...

I advance my villains as well, but I dont do it after a game session, I do it before the next session they appear in. More flexible and tailored that way.

Doug, why do you not think it would warrant a FOCI? Its been a fairly accepted practice of defining a FOCI as 'any mundane item of a type', often called a focus or object of opportunity. I can recall seeing this practice in play as far back as 12 years ago. In FREd its detailed on pg 188 at the top of column 2.

 

Granted, FREd directs one to use Inaccessible vice Accessible to reflect the difficulty of effectively stripping the user the FOCI, but Monolith would be well within his rights to override this detail if he wished (the example refers to a more vague class of objects than a 'Bow', which is fairly specific).

 

Also, if he did take Any Bow as an OIF and then further specified 'Any Bow and any Arrows' as applies the Multiple Focus rules, he would have a pretty strong case for downgrading the arrangement to an OAF when taken as a whole.

 

 

As far as the flexibility of the Naked Power Advantage, it is certainly pretty strong. Its primary purpose is to add the very flexibility in character design that you note. Should it be watched? Most definitely. Should its cost be changed? Hmm....If you really wanted to assess a premium; i.e. make it cost more to balance its flex, I would suggest adding either a flat +1/4 to the multiplier of the Advantage (ie NPA Autofire x5 would be +3/4, etc) or if thats not enough for you then perhaps double the advantage which would discourage bigger Advantages from being taken 'naked'.

Originally posted by RevHooligan

According to White Wolf, no one in history ever died. They've all been embraced and are running the world. I prefer to think that Orville Reddenbacher, Dave Thomas and Colonel Sanders are meeting in a catacomb in Paris right now, plotting.

 

As for the topic at hand, does anyone wonder why Marvel's Banshee is named after a female creature (Bian Sidhe= Fairy Woman).

 

Yes, except its a tomb in Paris, Texas rather than Paris, France

 

As far as Banshee, most of the characters from that era of X-Men had names that basically amounted to 'This guys supposed to be from country X, but none of us uneducated Americans know anything real about that place'.

 

Frex: Collossus's real name? Piotr RASPUTIN --hey, at least it wasnt IVAN RASPUTIN.

 

Nightcrawler? Kurt WAGNER

 

Thunderbird? James PROUDSTAR

 

Dude from the icy north of Canada? WOLVERINE

 

etc etc

 

and so you get:

Sean Cassidy? BANSHEE --sounds Irish, doesnt it?

Grrrr......

 

Me WANT mine now!

Originally posted by Tamashii2000

Hmm Got to read up on the Aztec myths, sounds like there is a lot of gaming potential there.

Yeah, or at least the White Wolf people thought so. Huitzpochtli (or however you spell it), is of course featured as a Vampire in VtM, of the Baali clan no less. Also, there is another Aztecan vampire named simply Pochtli who is nominally a member of the Giovanni clan, though there are some rumors (in typical 'Grey' Wolf fashion) that he was actually a vampire already and JOINED the Gionvanni rather than being Embraced as a Giovanni. The obvious but never confirmed conclusion to be drawn was that Huitzipochtli wasnt actually destroyed as believed in past nights but rather survived and eventually joined the Giovanni and is still around in the modern nights.......

Wow. This sounds really cool. Im not overly familiar with SAS or Tri-stat, but its an interesting concept regardless. Plus, an ADVENTURE for 5th Edition Champions. Woot!

As a side note:

 

I dont have my book with me and Im a bit hazy on the details, but it seems like Bow and Arrows of Opportunity would be more correct, and qualify for the Arrangement option of FOCI. (?Somebody w/ Book handy pls correct/confirm?)

 

 

All that aside, I personally really like the Naked Power Advantage option as a character designer, because it makes possible some power constructs that previously were difficult to accomplish due to Active Point limits (such as the example presented above of the Arrow Array Multipower), and also for Advantages that one might not always want to apply.

 

 

As a GM I would be very careful in allowing its use unrestricted in a Heroic level campaign (ie any campaign where among other things Equipment is not pointed but rather purchased). For example, in the case of the Autofire w/ Bow NPA, I can see 3 shots, but what about 10? Is it really appropriate to most Heroic level campaigns to have a dude spraying Arrows like a Machine Gun? I mean, draw, knock, aim, and shoot 10 shots in 1 second?

 

Even in a superheroic campaign, is something like Naked Power Advantage, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible) applicable to any power with 30 AP or less legal?

 

NPA definitely warrants close attention......

Re: whoops

 

Originally posted by winterhawk

Hmmm, a bit rubber science, but ok...may I suggest making someone slightly heavier (on a microscopic level), so that they don't notice the difference, but the extra mass/weight makes the character tire easier...just a suggestion, take it with a grain of salt.

Yes, exactly, this is what is intended. Basically, using the comic-book scientific paradigm of unlikely science, he fluctuates a targets graviton field rapidly, making them heavier and lighter and heavier and lighter repetitively, about a million times per second. This causes the targets muscles to effectively spasm and build up a huge amoung of lactic acid faster than the body can get rid of it, resulting in massive exhaustion.

 

 

Totally my bad. I've 'had a few' as the saying goes. I apologize.

 

Its all good my friend; no apologies necessary. Do another 40 ounce curl and have a good one

Originally posted by winterhawk

1) I don't get the END Drain justified by Gravitic powers

 

2) Are you ok with the 0 END Powers in an EC?

 

Otherwise looks ok.

END Drain: The idea is he fluctuates a persons 'graviton field' rapidly but subtly, causing rapid exhaustion.

 

0 END in EC: Look closely: there is no EC. There is only a list of abilites that are DRAINED as if they were in an EC; ie, a Drain vs one of the powers will Drain all the powers equally.

Here is a newly submitted PC from one of my players, shared for your possible use:

 

Gravitic

 

Player:

 

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
17	DEX	21
16	CON	12
15	BODY	10
8	INT	-2
15	EGO	10
20	PRE	10
18	COM	4
3/17	PD	0
3/12	ED	0
4	SPD	13
6	REC	0
32	END	0
31	STUN	0

6" RUN02" SWIM03"/33" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 83

 

Cost	Power	END
63	Gravitic Powers: Multipower, 95-point reserve, all slots: (95 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2)
6u	1) Micronic Mass Multiplier: Drain 9d6: END (90 Active Points) (uses END Reserve)	9
6u	2) Gravitic Pulse: Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. PD), Double Knockback (2x KB, Target does not take Knockback; +1/2), Indirect (Beneath Target; +3/4) (90 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) [Notes: No Knockback, Double Knockback: The goal of the power is to knock people over. So, calculate and resist Knockback as normal, but if the target takes Knockback then they just fall down in thier hex and dont take any actual Knockback damage.]	9
4u	3) G-FORCE: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6 +1 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Indirect (Always from ground below target; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Limited Power (Only vs Opponents within 1" of the ground; -1/2) (uses END Reserve) [Notes: Standard Effect: 10 BODY]	4
4u	4) Gravitic Fluctuator: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 +1 (vs. ED), Uncontrolled (+1/2), No Normal Defense (Body-Affecting Powers, or gravity-manipulation abilities; +1), Continuous (+1), Does BODY (+1) (90 Active Points); Limited Power (Only vs Opponents within 1" of the ground; -1/2) (uses END Reserve) [Notes: Standard Effect 4 Body.]	9
5u	5) What Goes up Must Come Down: Suppress: Flight (in Air), Gliding, Swinging, Leaping 6d6, Variable Effect (Four Powers Simultaneously; +1), Continuous (+1) (90 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) [Notes: Standard Effect 18 pts.]	9
5u	6) Gravity Wins Again: Suppress: All Movement 3 1/2d6, Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (7" Radius; +1), Selective Target (+1/4), Variable Effect (All Powers Simultaneously; +2) (94 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) (uses END Reserve) [Notes: Standard Effect 10 pts.]	9
3u	7) Gravity Alteration: Telekinesis (25 STR), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Selective Target (+1/4) (94 Active Points); Only To Pull Objects Straight Down To Earth Or Hold Them Off The Ground (-1), No Range (-1/2) (uses END Reserve)	4
2u	8) Polarity Shift: Flight 15", Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Usable As Attack (does not affect anyone with Desolidification, Power Defense, or gravity-manipulation abilities) (+1) (90 Active Points); Limited Power (Only to Hover directly above where they were standing; -1 1/2), Limited Power (Only vs Opponents within 1" of the ground; -1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4) (uses END Reserve)	9
6u	9) Density Decrease: Custom Power (1/8th Weight, + 3" KB, -15 STR; +3PD, +3" Leaping) , Uncontrolled (+1/2) (90 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) [Notes: Each 20 Base Points gives its target x1/2 Mass, +1" KB, -5 STR (no figured), +1 PD, +1" Leaping. The attack is visible, the effects are not. The effect is constant and continues as long as the Endurance cost is paid to maintain the effect. The Defense is Shrinking, Growth, Density Increase, Desolid, Shape Shift. ---------------------------------------------- Reduces the average person to about 26 lbs/12.5 kg.]	9
30	Personal Gravity: Multipower, 30-point reserve
2u	1) Air Walking: Flight 6", Invisible Power Effects (Hearing Group; +1/4), Difficult To Dispel (x2 Active Points) (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (30 Active Points); No Noncombat Movement (-1/4)
5m	2) Gravitic Leaping: Leaping +30" (3" / 33" forward, 1 1/2" / 16 1/2" upward) (30 Active Points); No Noncombat Movement (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) (added to Secondary Value)	3
5m	3) Gravitic Gliding: Gliding 30" (30 Active Points); No Noncombat Movement (-1/4)
	Gravitic Dispersion, all slots: Drained as EC (Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness; -1/4)
10	1) Knockback Resistance -10" (20 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4)
10	2) Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% (15 Active Points); Nonpersistent (-1/4)
20	3) Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Nonpersistent (-1/4)
14	4) Armor (10 PD / 5 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (28 Active Points); Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (added to Secondary Value)
10	Fighting Costume: Armor (4 PD / 4 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (15 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) (added to Secondary Value)
18	Endurance Reserve (90 END, 9 REC) (18 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 228

 

 

Cost	Skill
10	+2 with All Gravity Powers
10	+2 with DCV
1	SS: Physics (INT-based) 8-
3	Acting 13-
2	KS: Superhero World 11-
2	Language: French: Basic Conversation (Literacy)
	Everyman Skills
0	Conversation 8-
0	High Society 8-
5	Gambling (Card Games, Dice Games, Roulette) 8-
0	Persuasion 8-
0	Riding 8-
0	Seduction 8-
0	TF: Custom Adder, Small Motorized Ground Vehicles [Notes: Custom Mod is Everyman Skill]

Skills Cost: 33

 

Cost	Perk
10	Money (Wealthy)

Perks Cost: 10

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 354

 

Val	Disadvantages
10	Distinctive Features: Mutant, Not Concealable, Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction, Detectable Only By Unusual Senses
15	Social Limitation: Secret Identity, Frequently (11-), Major
5	Social Limitation: Public ID: TV and Bad Supers Movies, Occasionally (8-), Minor
10	Hunted: Gravitar, More Powerful, 8- (Occasionally), Watching, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find
15	Psychological Limitation: Overconfident, Common, Strong
20	Psychological Limitation: Code of the HERO, Very Common, Strong
5	Accidental Power Use (Gravity Alteration): When suprised or frightened in Secret ID, Uncommon, Infrequently (8-) [Notes: If frightened/suprised, there is a chance that the "Gravity Alteration" Power is activated. In this case, it selects all targets accept Gravitic, and on a 1d6 roll of 1-2 floats all targets, 4-6 pulls them down.]
20	Normal Characteristic Maxima: No Age Restriction

Disadvantage Points: 100

 

Base Points: 250

Experience Required: 4

Total Experience Available: 4

Experience Unspent: 0

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy

Sounds like he takes a commonly used approach to playing Magic:TG and uses it for rpgs. Yikes. One of our group comes up with some twisted decks from time to time, I think I'd freak if he ever pulled that on a character though.

Actually, in his case, Jyhad aka Vampire the Eternal Struggle is the CCG of choice. He's also the reason Im selling off my 6000 card collection and never playing that particular game again

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I can only admire your patience (and even more so the patience of your players). After such a player had killed my second character, my new characters would all be built with the sole purpose of killing his characters. I'd shove him off every high cliff we came near, or cut his throat in his sleep. (Perhaps an entire clan of assassins devoted to avenging a character slain by this imbecile...)

 

See, heres the thing, I as the GM would act to prevent the classic 'Avenging Avatar' situation from developing. You would have to validate to me WHY your new character was out to get the character that killed off your old character, in game. Are you a close relative, seeking revenge, a law enforcement officer of some sort, or (my favorite) play off of the PC killer's background to be someone from his past that has finally tracked him down, often with some dark secret to reveal which will make the other PCs question thier allegiance with him. Occasionally, if you thirst for vengeance and I feel its best to let you get it out of your system and are responsible enough to handle it, I might even let you play the PC-Killers Hunted for a session if he has one (and if you do a good job, perhaps thereafter within the lifespan of the campaign), or let you design a Hunted (and subsequently play them) that I can give him as part of a periodic Disadvantages reevaluation ("Hmm....well Mr. PC-Killer, your PsyLim Code of the Hero isnt what it used to be apparantly, so we'll just subtract that off the character sheet and replace it with Reputation: Unstable and dangerous to be around, and a 10 point Mystery Disadvantage which will surely haunt you later, with interest compounded daily {trademark GMs smirk}").

 

You do realize, KS, that there is also a good chance he will never improve? Sometimes a sow's ear remains so.

Yes, I realize. Ive actually lost a couple of other players who just couldnt stand to play with him. They were inconsistent players, whereas he is extremely consistent, and the bulk of the players, when spoken to independently, did not want to see him put out of the group.

 

If he doesnt ever improve, he'll get culled. In the meantime, he's good for laughs and if nothing else, makes for memorable games. People are still talking about games from two years ago because the fallout from this players was so major or amusing that those sessions just stick in your memory indelibly.

 

I talk with the player regularly. He knows he's not a good roleplayer. All the other players rag him constantly. Its kind of become a running joke. He's trying to improve, but unfortunately he really just isnt any good at it. I think he has trouble conceptualizing, or projecting his thought patterns into a differing mindset, which are both important qualities of a roleplayer. He also is not goal or method oriented, being more of a reaction oriented sort. His mind is better at dealing with artificial structures and how they interrelate. For example, he gave up an EE major because he couldnt handle the programming aspects of the course load among other things, and switched to Economics, which is all about understanding and manipulating an artificial structure and reacting with the day to day events of it all.

 

Programming does rely on artificial structures, but you have to be able to conceptualize and project to program towards something. It requires an end goal and a consisent methodology. Making a character in many systems is similar to making a small application that inherits from base classes and can have some small amount of customization override code, but is prohibited from defining new objects or interfaces itself, particularly a HEROs character. He understands the rules system and he is able to manipulate it, but he does so to make characters that just exploit those rules. He doesnt conceptualize an end result which is a virtual person and then define that via the rules system, instead he identifies loopholes and exploitations in the rules system and then implements them with only the veneer of of a virtual person.

 

Instead of Warp {background,motivation,personality,some powers}, you have Warp {Was born and has powers, kill stuff, easily annoyed casual killer, RKA NND does Body 0 END Contin Uncontrolled usable Desolid, Desolid, Spatial Awareness Targeting, Teleport}.

Originally posted by Blue

Shrike, if you convert him there could be a sainthood in it for you. Make copious notes and write a book on converting powergamers to civilized players.

I've made something of a personal crusade along these lines, bringing a good number of players into the fold of actual 'role' players as opposed to dice rollers.

 

I dont mind if someone is a powergamer, so long as they are also a ROLE player. It takes all types to make a (imagined fantasy) world go around afterall.

 

Ergo, a player that has a character concept that is solid and detailed, and then stats the character with some powers that may be abusive BUT FIT THE CHARACTERS SFX and BACKGROUND will not earn my veto power if their character is legal or in case of GMs option type power constructs is self-limiting in some way that constrains them. However a player that takes a collection of abiities and splices them together (overpowered or not), and then kind of splices a half-assed character concept onto that will earn my veto power immediately. I routinely kick back entire characters whether they are balanced/legal or not if I feel that the character as a whole is lacking substance.

 

"Go back to the begining, come up with a background with some level of plausibility, and give him/her any appropriate skills, perks, and talents to match the characters history. Then, after you have spent those points on background flavor and solidly grounding the character, define a special effect(s) for your superhuman abilities, set your characteristics, and finally construct powers that are in some way validated by your special effect. Tweak as necessary after the fact to result in a polished well rounded character.", or words to that effect are my mantra on HEROs character creation.

 

 

I'm not Father Joe by any means however; I've kicked a LOT of players in my day. If they dont contribute to the group or have the potential to grow into a contributing role, then out they go, in mid session if necessary.

 

 

The part about motivation does remind me of an article though. Jeff Freeman on RPGnet used to write some incredibly sarcastic, funny columns. http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/ackjun98.html

 

Heh. Thats amusing

 

As it happens my name is Ed, like the GM in the parable. I've been there, done that. It can be a real chore dealing with die-headed munchkins like that. If they are that far gone, I usually dont even get that far with them. It's "sorry, I dont think our playing styles mesh. Buh-bye."

RE: Neil, Trebuchet:

 

You guys dont know the half of it. On top of his lack of characterization and role playing acumen, he also is renowned for his accidental PC-killing, and general team-screwing.

 

He's such a bullet head, he often takes out downed comrades, or downs them himself in the first place with friendly fire. When he isnt doing that, he's pissing off or killing or both the wrong NPC, making a complete hash out of whatever plan the party has cooked up, or otherwise adding pure random Chaos into any situation.

 

This is regardless of character or system mind you. His trademark manuever was breaking a fully charged staff of power in the middle of a climactic battle, killing half of the party flat out. Only 1 other PC fell in that entire battle, and sadly thier corpse was in the blast radius and subsequently vaporized along with the others. It wasnt even merely a contributing factor, all of the characters that died were at or near full hitpoints, and had not yet begun to run on fumes resource wise. He just cut straight to the breaking-of-the-staff-of-power bit after the parties halfling thief got zapped by a good old D&D save or die effect. His character got gated to another plane, and the survivors basically had to cut and run. This was the entire climactic battle of a year long campaign mind you. All told, the player was responsible for the death of 5 party members over the course of the campaign, one PC of which he killed something like 3 times (and subsequently resurrected) with area of affect spells, destroying almost all of his items in the process due to failed saves.

 

Yeah, Im not kidding. :rolleyes:

 

Thats just a notable example. The list of just random, incomprehensible things that he has done in various games with various characters to the detriment of the party is really practically endless.

 

 

In fact this past week he couldnt make it, and about midway thru the game 1 of the players commented on the fact that he couldnt believe how smooth the game was going causing the rest of the players to all look at each other and laugh, because they simultaneously realized it was due to his absense.

 

Why do I still let him play? Because, believe it or not he ADDS fun to the game. Not to encourage his more excessive monkey-wrenching, but some of it is really really funny outside of the game. He so out of touch with common sense that the crap he does and the situations that arise are hysterically funny. You are hating him in-character and rolling on the floor in real life. Plus, he's good people when he isnt aggravating the hell out of you.

 

As a GM, I can always relax a bit on the villains when he's in the game; he can be counted on to do something stupid that will give me all the plot hooks I need to drive an entire session. Give him enough rope, and he reflexively makes a noose out of it and slips it on a teammate.

 

Also, he's young yet; he just turned 21 a while ago and has not yet learned restraint. There is a lot of potential there (he's a dedicated gamer, he just isnt any good at playing a role. The phrase 'good initiative, [absurdly] poor judgement' was minted to describe him), and Im foolishly determined to shape him into a better player. Thats why.

Hey Steve; fractious players assaulting me with thier whacky character concepts again; a player wants to do the Gravity schtick and hit me 'which power lowers an opponents weight?" or something to that effect.

 

which leads me to:

 

Q: Is there a recommended way to decrease an opponents mass and only thier mass against thier will? This should be a real quantifiable reduction in mass, not a SFX handwave.

 

 

Q: Is it possible to use Shrinking UAA to decrease a targets mass?

 

If so and you dont want all of the other effects of Shrinking such as reduced size, PER penalty, and DCV bonuse specifically then:

 

Q: Is it appropriate to take a Limitation, "Mass Only (Mass and KB penalties only) -1/2", to depict , or is it a +/-0 or even an advantage in this case because it is an attack and essentially robs the target of potentially beneficial aspects of Shrinking such as the PER penalty and DCV Bonus?

 

Thanx Steve!

Ive run campaigns up and down the point scale, supers and non-supers.

 

IMO, All of them were equally fun.

 

IMO, any given point level is as good as the next so long as the players are having fun, the GM is having fun, and nobody gets hurt in the process. I mean, who can put a point total on fun?

 

Center the game on the relative power level, not the point level IMO. If the HEROs are all 500 points, but so are the villains, than its not much different that when the heroes were 250 and so were the villains. The key is to challenge the players, and the challenge is going to differ from group to group and week to week.

 

As far as supers are concerned, I like 250 points, 350 points, 550 points and up, so long as the character is respectibly pointed within the context of the setting and feels challenged but not overwhelmed. Like Goldylocks, I dont want to play an overpowered or underpowered character. I want to a character that is powered just right, and that has little to do with a point total and more to do with how far off median that point total is.

 

 

One thing I really like about 350 v 250 is that players can afford to put a larger percentage pf points into flavor & schtick while maintaining thier viability. Whether individual players do or not is up to them. Ultimately you get out of a character what you put into it, so I like to think that power gaming "the mechanic IS the character" types get less out of the game than those who model a concept rather than conceptualize a model.

 

I have one player for example that is really bad about this. I dont know why, but he just continues to come up with degenerate power-mongering characters that are really nothing more than exploits of broken rules or an attempt to push a questionable rule to the point of breaking. Background? Nope. Concept? Dude, what do you mean concept, I told you he does 500 damage each action on average! Power origin? Woke up like that one day. If he does come up with some background, or even a detail such as, oh I dont know, a REAL NAME, you can be sure it centeres around a lame pun or play on words. He finds a rule or mechanic that seems exploitable, then makes a character whose sole purpose in life is to apply the rules dodge in some fashion. In HEROs, he is most interested in any power that has a stop or yield sign next to it. He wants concepts that basically just semi-validate a lot of damage dealing. Its unfortunate, but there you go.

 

You can be sure that with 350 points, he will not hand in a character with 50 points of 'fluff' skills. If he has skills at all, they'll be Acrobatics, Breakfall, and/or Stealth, you can be sure. Every last ounce of pointage will be squeezed into a cup and put into a blender with a landmine. Damage will be of primary concern. With a group full of players like this, 350 wouldnt work at all unless I wanted to play a SLUGATHON and they wouldnt have fun at 250 (not enough damage after all).

 

WIth more mature players comes more restraint. If a group wants more points in a starting (or any other) campaing, and you thinkthe players can handle more points, and most importantly its fun then start off at a higher level. Try out 750 point characters for a run. Adapt/Retry to fit.

Originally posted by Mayday

Hey Shrike, you got a website for Jon? I added the url of this thread to Wraithes website for later reference. She is my PRIMUS agent, and I like Nick Fury. :-)

Sorry; I have a website, but I havent touched it for several years now

 

You can however feel free to copy John Wrath (and his trusty Hovercar) and use him for whatever you see fit; just put a byline (Ed Hastings\Killer Shrike & Jon Bristow) on it.