Yamo

HERO 5th, page 348 says:

"If two Powers (or other game elements) are equally valid ways to create a particular ability, you must use the more expensive of the two."

In several published HERO products, I've seen extra PRE bought with a -1 "Only To Defend Against Presence Attacks" Limitation. But isn't this incorrect in light of the rule cited above when EGO with the same Limitation is equally valid in every way and costs twice as much?

I think the VPP is the only way to duplicate (and therefore SFX reflect) any possible melee attack

The problem is: The attack might be too "big" for the Pool to duplicate. A character with Missile Reflection can reflect ANY attack of the appropriate type, no matter how many Active (or Real) Points it is.

A secondary problem is that Cosmic VPPs of sufficient size to mirror even most attacks are vastly more expensive (low triple digit costs minimally) relative to Missile Reflection, but provide no more benefit. This is undesirable from a balance perspective. A PC in most games that could easily afford Missile Reflection either could not afford this ability, or could afford nothing else and would be an overall weak "one-trick pony" of a character.

Fortunately, the esteemed Mr. Long has already given us an easy, relatively painless way to do just what you want. See FREd, chapter 6 beginning on page 347, and paying particular attention to page 354.

 

Yamo, I know you don't like house rules, but consider this: is it worth it to go with an incredibly baroque construct that just drips with gooey, melty mozarella and Velveeta, or would you rather go with something whose relative point cost fits in with the pre-existing construct similar to the one you're trying to come up with?

True, but the book says that creating new Powers should only rarely be necessary. I just don't know that I can accept that this should be one of those rare cases. I'd rather just see Deflection/Reflection modified in future editions.

And I personally don't see any problem with a damage shield requiring a block roll...just define the SFX as "as the the incoming attack" ... it also cannot exceed the actual dice in the attack. A two slot MP to cover the HKA vs. the HA. Ditching the power advantages is safe, it simulates a lack of "control" over the niceties of the reflected attack. Alternatively increase the MP slots to include the common effects.

 

The VPP limited to "only to duplicate/refelct hand to hand attacks" "requires successful block roll" is also viable.

First post in this thread details the various reasons that nether of these options are really viable.

And the rest of you brains...what about a TK damage shield to "deflect melee attacks" ... how would that operate?

Good question. I have absolutely no idea.

I don't see it as a system flaw at all. If you do, feel free to fix it for your own campaign.

Well, I suppose that if you wanted to explain why having staggeringly and irreconcilably different costs for almost identical abilities is a actually a preferred approach for the system, you would have. I still don't understand it at all on any level. I just think things should cost what they're worth relative to other, similar abilities.

At least I tried. Thanks.

*sigh*

Out of curiousity, Yamo, what is the SFX of this ability?

Powerful telekinesis that redirects incoming blows in a direction of the character's choosing.

And since there doesn't seem to by any other legal way to do it right, and I loathe house rules of any kind, I'm just going to cheese out and use a lame kludge:

Telekinetic Melee Reflection: Extra-Dimensional Movement (any location in the otherwise-identical alternate dimension where a successfully-Blocked HTH attack aimed at the character this Phase was redirected to something else of the character's choice within its range instead, requiring that a new attack roll be made for it using the character's OCV), Trigger (successful Blocking of the HTH attack in question with intent to apply this Power; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (special effects fully invisible; +1/2) (44 Active Points), Total Cost: 44 points

Haha!

To do the exact of what's requested, I'd just use Teleportation, MegaScale (to whatever distance), Usable Simultaneously (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Only to Trade Places (-1), 1 Charge (-2).

What if the party without the Power doesn't want to be teleported?

But what sense does it make from a system perspective if an almost identically-functioning ability that is in no way whatsoever more powerful is vastly more "elaborate and expensive?"

That would be like Energy Blast being 5 points for a DC of damage and Killing Attack being 75 points per DC (and incredibly more complicated and unintuitive) for no obvious logical reason.

Isn't this a system flaw? Can nothing be done to fix it? Maybe Deflection/Reflection can be expanded to include legal missle and melee variants if FREd is ever revised or a new edition is released?

I would just use IPE Gate Teleportation to the other side of the wall.

Desolid UAA would work, too, though, as long as you made sure to limit what it's usable on.

BTW you can abort to Missle Deflection but not Reflection.

Yeah. Brain fart there.

Try Stretching, Usable as Attack, you only need a few inches to turn a melee attack back apon a target (my character also has the not through intervening space because her SF/X is teleporting gates)

That MIGHT work, but...

a) I'm not sure if you can use Stretching to effectively force a character to attack.

This would be an attack action. I want something like Missile Reflection that can be Aborted to to redirect HTH attacks.

I'm trying to design a viable "melee deflection and reflection" Power (or Multipower), but I can't quite get it right.

The basic idea is easy enough. I just make a Multipower with HKA and No Range Energy Blast and then add "Must Coincide With A Successfully Blocked Killing Attack (Normal Attack for the EB slot) (-1/2)" and "DCs Used Cannot Exceed Those In Attack Blocked (-1/2? -1/4?)" to each one.

Variable Special Effects (any Blocked HTH attack; +1/4) is also a must.

The problems are: No matter how many dice of effect I buy, there's no guarantee they'll be enough to match the attack I'm supposed to be reflecting. Missile Reflection doesn't have this problem. I can deflect an xd6 Energy Blast no problem if I make my roll and it will deal xd6 damage no matter what. If I put 10d6 of EB in my melee reflecting Power, a 20d6 reflected punch is going to do 10d6 damage max. This is lame and not consistant with the benefit from Missile Reflection.

Secondly, there's no real way to guarantee I'll be able to use all the Advantages of the incoming attack when it's reflected to a new target. Variable Advantage just doesn't work here. A simple Armor Piercing attack might be okay, but what about an Armor Piercing, Penetrating, NND, Does BODY? What what if I but it at the 1/2 level, but I only need 1/4 or 3/4 for a particular attack? Variable Advantage is just a bust here. Unless I buy it so many times that it adds something like +10 to the Power all by itself...

And even if I could do this, it seems like I'd invariably end up with a Power that cost many times what Missile Deflection/Reflection does and provides no more real benefit.

Aarg! Why this dumb prohibition in the rules on not allowing Melee Deflection?

EDIT: I have considered VPPs, but a huge Cosmic VPP is just as hellishly expensive relative to Missile Deflection/Reflection and there's still no guarantee I'll have enough points at my disposal to perfectly simulate reflecting any attack (good luck bouncing the HTH equivilent of a Destroyer Beam, for example).

Man, you must get tired of hearing about time stopping all the..uh..time.

Anyway, the descripion for this Power reads, in part: "He himself [the Power's user] remains immune to this effect, and can take whatever actions he wants to."

To take any real action on frozen character, wouldn't the character also require the Transdimensional Advantage for things like STR and Attack Powers? Special effects-wise, it seems like the character really hasn't physically relocated to another dimension at all, so it's not quite, conceptually-speaking, the same as shooting a lightning bolt at a critter on the Elemental Plane of Fire or something. But is that hand-wave strictly legal?

It seems like a literal read of the rules would still require the Advantage, no? For example, would it be possible for a character with this Power to punch someone frozen in the face and have them fall down hurt when time resumed (use his STR), shoot a frozen fleeing car with his Energy Blast and have it explode later (use an Attack Power he's paid points for) or shoot someone with a gun he carries on his person (use an Attack Power he hasn't paid points for) and have them wounded when the effect ends if they don't have Transdimensional?

Before I use this Power in my game, I'm just trying to get a handle on whether it represents a complete effect in itself, or whether its user requires more Powers (or naked Advantages) to make it really work.

Thanks.

Maybe this is just because it's such a pet peeve for me, but I'm going to go ahead and be pedantic here.

This combat/roleplaying split has ALWAYS bugged me in a roleplaying context. Properly applied, combat is a vital part of the story and thus part of the roleplaying! A lot of valuable characterization can be drawn from how characters act and react in important conflict situations. This is particularly true if there's one-lined, oaths, curses, taunts, soliloquies and such throughout the course of the fight, as there is with every group I've played with.

Think about movies with important combat scenes: Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Rocky, Saving Private Ryan, Enter The Dragon. The list goes on and on. Does the story stop during the action scenes, or do the action scenes further the story in important ways? Do the characters stop emoting or evolving during combat scenes? Hardly!

So frankly I think it's a false distinction and I reject it uncatagorically. All combat is not mindless "rollplaying" and all standing around talking is not deep, compelling roleplaying.

I just use the USPD "official" time stop: EDM to outside the timestream.

Yeah, it's kinda cheap, but if you want it in your campaign, there's no real way to balance something that powerful with "normal" Powers like Energy Blast and such, so you might as well just go with the simplest possible rules construct. No matter what the price, a Power like this is functionally almost pure plot device and exists entirely outside the normal cost/benefit structure. Thus, the exact number of points it costs is largly irrelevent. If time stoping is totally going to destroy your campaign at 40 points, it's almost certainly going to destroy that same campaign if it costs 100 or 1000 points, so you're better off just disallowing it altogether in that case.

That's how I see it, anyway. I use the simpliest possible version (EDM) or no version at all.

Here's the concept: It's a force wall, but when it's breached, the remainder of the attack (after the wall's defenses are applied) makes it through, but the hole in the wall instantly "heals" and the wall as a whole doesn't go away.

How to?

What about Detect: Anything I Want To Know About Anything?

Gee thanks, that's real helpful.

Better than real condescending, pal. Ditch the attitude and you'll get farther.

I am looking to see if anyone has rough estimates of what basic equipment might mass so I can calculate encumbrance.

Anyone else's "estimates" are unlikely to be significantly more accurate or valuable than your own, so you're really better off just using a combination of your own experience and "close enough for a game" educated guesses for anything outside it.

Is the best power to use for this Shapeshift (one form)?

That's what I would use. I wouldn't even take a Limitation to reflect the loss of claws and wings, deeming it just special effects since he could end the Shapeshift at any time and use them freely.

LS: Self-Contained Breathing with a Limitation reflecting that it's only useful to resist strangulation. Probably -1 easy. Real cheap.

tesuji,

Listen, this is a very simple concept, and while I believe you may be feigning ignorance of it in order to facilitate your trolling, I don't believe for a second that you don't understand it.

This is a HERO SYSTEM board. It's very, very clear that you like Dungeons & Dragons and lot more than you do Hero System. Well, guess what? Yeah, that's right: Nobody cares. Why? Because it's not proper to come here just to repeatedly (and, might I add, unimaginatively and monotonously) put down Hero System in favor of some other game. I don't know of anyone here who has nothing better to do than try to get their jollies by whizzing in other gamers' Wheaties the way you do. We don't go to the D&D boards just to tell them how inferior their silly system is to HERO. You do just that here, and it's childish and unseemly.

So take it elsewhere. Putting down system X in favor of system Y on a system X-dedicated forum is textbook trolling plain and simple and it's not making you any friends here. Grow up a little.

And welcome to my ignore list.

Extradimensional Movement to the alternate dimension where everything is the same except all the character's enemies are dead and he rules unquestioned over the entire Earth?

Okay, I made that one up, but it couldn't get much worse, could it?

Step one: Grab villain in TK.

Step two: Hit villain with Mental Illusion that they're still grabbed in the TK and can't get out.

This is clearly a broken Power construct.

You should have Linked them so as to accomplish both effects in one Phase.

Anyway, you see what I mean. It's pretty expensive. Anyone have any more ideas?

Call it cheesy, but...

Extra-Dimensional Movement to the "dimension" where the two parties have just exchanged places.

There's still the annoying problem of having to roll dice every time anyone says anything...