David Blue

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! megaplayboy: "oh, the other reason why no ultimate nullifier--the challenge specifies nothing overly gimmicky, like "Steve has the Infinity Gauntlet", or "Aunt May has three cosmic cubes" kinda stuff." Fox1: "But a Reed Richards super device counts?" Waiting for a call, megaplayboy. Felix the Cat The wonderful, wonderful cat. Whenever he gets in a fix he reaches into his bag of tricks Felix the Cat The wonderful, wonderful cat. You laugh so much your sides will ache, your heart will go pitter-pat. Watching Felix, the wonderful cat. For purposes of this challenge, Does Mister Fantastic get to reach into his bag of tricks if Hyperion gets the heroes in a fix?

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! Another approach I should list: a couple of people went for an alteration attack: shrinking. Thank you. I misinterpreted this. Obviously the magical attack was not just icing on the cake but essential.

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! I don't think this Hyperion is a quasi-Superman with a quasi-Kryptonite problem. I think he's a quasi-Mr. Mxyzptlk problem, except that he's a multi-global mass killer. You have to get him to say his own name backwards, or in this case get him to flashvision himself to death. (And then you have to get him to stay dead, because I think Joker-style interminable reruns for a villain like new Hyperion are a terrible idea.) There are lots of approaches to this, such as using illusions and robots that act as energy batteries and transmitters, then setting off a flashvision bomb. The problems are: 1. To get the best people doing this, so it's working technology, not daydreaming. 2. To beat his supersenses and suspicion, so the fox doesn't smell the trap. 3. To keep new Hyperion from destroying you or lots of other people in the meantime. My reason for thinking it has to be flashvision is: he's massively vulnerable to it. The reason I think he's massively vulnerable is, it's not energetic enough to have done for him before otherwise. According to my admittedly primitive understanding, a nuclear explosion is mostly a bright flash plus secondary effects. What does flashvision produce by the way of secondary effects? So we're talking about many halvings of that bright energy dump, yet it was the return-to-sender flashvision, not a nuclear explosion that did for Hyperion. The rest is setting up the appropriate mirror trap.

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! What do you mean by "plot device" in this context? Or since you are putting the phrase in the mouths of imaginary players, what are you saying they would mean? To answer the second question first: no it wasn't enough. I'm playing this game because I find it fun and it's teaching me things about how I think and how other people think. Good things. I've addressed the challenge the same way I would in a game. You can see what I think matters: moral and character issues, motivation and reliability, powers and power levels, coordination, having a leader and a sensible plan and preferably a backup plan or last resort. You can see how I started with what I think have to be the final panels of the comic - a Mister Fantastic super-gadget takes new Hyperion out - and I walked back through the things that have to happen before that, and people who would be needed to do those things. You can see the emphasis on bricks at the brunt. I have not "hidden my game" at all: you could look at this thread and make a good guess at how I'd act as player, or what expectations I would have of the players as a gamemaster. Now I'm interested in stepping into the shoes of other people who made up different lists for what seemed to them to be good reasons, which they may not have spelled out explicitly before. I think in future this might contribute in a small way to me treating the ideas of other players or a gamemaster's assumptions with more sympathy, which is a good thing.

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! Good, that's another sensible approach for the list. And the Scarlet Witch got a few votes. Were you thinking of another way to bypass defenses, equivalent to the drain/transfer attack route? If so, that seems very well founded. The Scarlet Witch has been invaluable again and again because her hex power seems to disregard normal rules. Were you trying to accumulate a critical mass of good luck, as it were, so completely implausible results like beating new Hyperion might happen in a single thunderstroke? I can see the appeal, but what about when Longshot luck goes wrong? It doesn't do to overstrain it. Did you have no special plan? I agree that luck is a great asset, but Longshot and even more the Scarlet Witch is an obvious vulnerable target. I think we want something positive to happen in our favor before they get flashed and ashed.

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! A lot of people went for a team approach: let the Avengers do it, or let the Fantastic Four do it, or let them both do it. This is very justifiable when you consider the propensity of heroes to get in each others way if they lack a history of cooperation and preferably teamwork. Sentimental favourite characters may have been favoured, but Daredevil didn't make any teams I noticed. A lot of low-powered characters' names were posted, but they were more about mocking the idea of the thread than trying to play the game, so if anything they would be least-favourite characters. A list of heavy hitters was a common approach. Such lists were typically thick with high-threat villains. But nobody used an all-villain team. However some people did pick all-hero teams, very deliberately. As far as I can see, there were three approaches to finding a weakness on the villain and using it: 1. The start from scratch approach. I had a couple of find weakness merchants up front (Karnak and Captain America), a network, and a gadgetry team. 2. The familiar back door approach - Leech and Rogue. The idea here seems to be: we already know what generally works as a good back-door, so let's just get to the pull-don't-push attack. Sound thinking: that seems to have been tried in the comics with good results. 3. The perfect solution approach - Nighthawk with the green Argonite bullet. That's hard to argue with, if you've got the knowledge to pull it off, and selecting Nighthawk says you do have that knowledge. Any other patterns or categories people noticed?

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! On Leech: Woo-hoo! I see no reason to object to the numbers in Jeff Grubb's MH-1: 6851: Marvel Super Heroes: Official Game Adventure: The Breeder Bombs. There, Rogue's power rank with her Power Absorption is Amazing. That is impressive, but it mightn't be enough. Her Amazing rank is certainly enough to make the attack. I don't see here whether Hyperion would need a Psyche or an Endurance feat to nullify it. In the former case, by the sound of it, he has a good chance, and in the latter case a very good chance. And Rogue is in some danger of suffering from a backlash from the attempt. None of which should discourage a Rogue fan. I'm assuming an uphill fight whatever we try. A Power Absorption attack is one of the most worthwhile things to attempt. And while Leech is the guy you want next to Hyperion, preferably with Nighthawk and an argonite bullet to follow, getting Rogue into position is a lot easier.

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him!

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! Say what?? Thanks for the links.

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him!

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! Here are some of the terms of the challenge: In other words, whatever version of Hyperion I'm used to, I'm to assume that this is something like the personality of Kid Miracleman with a tasty blend of his powers and those of the Silver Age Superman. I think DC characters are built at a higher level than Marvel characters, and the best simulation for Mjolnir hitting Superman would be for the gamemaster to say, "your hammer bounces off his chest," so I'm taking all twelve Marvel characters to which I may be entitled, and picking only the noblest, the most reliable, the bravest, the mightiest, the most durable, and those most able to work around an opponent with superior physical power. I'm expecting something like the mighty battle from "The Golden Age", and I need Mister Fantastic and friends to come up with a final trump to win this thing. This appears to be a fairly typical approach. If it reveals bias to Marvel and against DC, I don't see why.

Re: Marvel's Exiles: Hyperion Challenge--build a team to beat him! I imagine this as looking like Kid Miracleman at maximum power starting to "kill time" in London. I've gone for steady guys: real, consistent superheroes who can be counted on (no Magneto, no Phoenix, no Molecule Man etc.). Nobody who might have a temper tantrum that day (no Hulk), no self-indulgent hysterics or prima donnas (well, just one, but the guy on the surfboard is worth it). Also, no Franklin Richards, or "anybody, but with a Cosmic Cube". My plan is to buy time for the variable power pool heroes, mainly Reed Richards, to put together a fight-ender. I have supreme confidence he/they can do that. 1. Captain America, team leader (likely first to die if not well-guarded, but needed) 2. Mister Fantastic, gadgetry variable power pool user and number two (over-horizon) 3. Professor X, mentalist and communications (over-horizon) 4. Doctor Strange, mystic variable power pool user (over-horizon, Sanctum Sanctorum) 5. Silver Surfer, cosmic variable power pool user (sympathetic, if annoying, from Day 1) 6. Beta Ray Bill (leader of the blocking team: the one hero I count on above all others) 7. Hercules (deputy leader of the blocking team) 8. Gladiator 9. Hyperion (as seen in the Squadron Supreme limited series, before being blinded) 10. Captain Britain (local hero) 11. Karnak (also likely to die, but needed as the best hope to find a weakness) 12. Black Bolt (if worst comes to worst: do it, don't let the bad guy win and go on) PS: If Skuttlebutt is considered a separate hero rather than an adjunct to Beta Ray Bill, then drop Captain Britain.

Re: Could your Champions character beat... Hero System is a disaster in that respect. But Lariat is not the problem. Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: [to The Monster] Hello handsome. You're a good looking fellow, do you know that? People laugh at you, people hate you, but why do they hate you? Because... they are jealous. Look at that boyish face. Look at that sweet smile. Do you wanna talk about physical strength? Do you want to talk about sheer muscle? Do you want to talk about the Olympian ideal? You are a God. And listen to me, you are not evil. You... are... good. [the Monster starts to cry, and Dr. Frederick Frankenstein hugs him] - Young Frankenstein (1974)

Re: Why Kill At All? I don't get that. Explain? It counts. But it counts a bit less if it's against generic unnamed killers with no redeeming human qualities, as opposed to unnamed lady with baby carriage.

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences We have a new and brilliant contribution from another thread: Post #109: Bravo! Rep for PhilFleischmann!

Re: Why Kill At All? Nucleon, this is your thread. The question: "Why kill at all?" was your question. Would you agree that Mister Incredible (and the other Incredibles) had a good answer to this question? The agents in their flying buzzsaws were an immediate threat to the family. The way Syndrome had set it up, it was very difficult if not impossible to fight them effectively without killing them. So, Mister Incredible and the rest of the Incredibles fought all out, throwing the flying buzz-saws into each other and so on, and not noticeably caring that this was bound to kill Syndrome's agents. (I was a little more concerned about the agents tossed in the sea, but let's just focus on the big family fight on the island for now.)

Re: Why Kill At All?

Re: Why Kill At All? (laughing, a lot) You got me on the fly! (My connection is slow today.) Yes, I quite agree. I'll stand by what I said though. Here we are in the super-powered comic-book genre area. Within this genre, there are sub-genres, sure. But those sub-genres in which a code versus killing (which Mister Incredible does not have, he just has a normal heroic reluctance to kill) is accepted as valid are second to none in artistic success and commercial appeal. The appeal of the hero who conspicuously refrains from killing is (and should be) strong. I don't accept defining all this out of the Champions genre as just bunk/stupid/whatever.

Re: Why Kill At All?

Re: Teleportation, really that different? I would say an unconscious target is "willing". Unconscious targets are easy to kill. Teleporting someone in a team context can have the same effect. (Szybko teleports you to a hidden location behind an armoured wall or inside an armoured box where V.O.I.C.E. team-mates are waiting. They hack - many-on-one - till there's nothing left but a red mess on the ground. Rinse - literally - and repeat.) There's no need to make it more expensive to kill a target with team tactics than it already is to do the job simply.

Re: Could your Champions character beat... A friend I discussed the Captain America challenge with reminded me of two other heroes I briefly played. Mister Wonderful - (flying brick) - If Mister Wonderful lands, he loses, but I think he'd be wise enough to stay high in the sky out of reach. Mister Wonderful had a life overflowing with tragedy. He was, necessarily, cautious, cold-blooded, even sad. He was not a foolish optimist. The Sentry (energy projector with some running) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful in every way. (The Sentry died taking on a typical killer superhero with the usual gun multipower - the kind of character Captain America eats for breakfast.) The Sentry would run, but not be fast enough, and fire, but be unable to affect Captain America with a perfectly straightforward mid-to-low power Energy Blast, his only real attack. Captain America rules. Except against - Tank Boy!

Re: Could your Champions character beat... I marginally prefer Agent X's writeup. It makes no difference. Either version would wipe the floor with any of my characters. Doctor One (quarter-brick) - Doctor One would be a walkover for Bucky Barnes, let alone Captain America. Orgone Man (semi-egoist) - by special effect, his EGO Blast, the only attack that could get past Captain America's shield, should fail, because Captain America is too healthy, psychologically. Besides, Captain America is overwhelmingly superior in general. If Orgone Man is fighting it's for a good reason, so if he can't get any result at range, he won't quit, he'll try his fists. An immediate knockout victory for Captain America is the only possible result. Last Hero (brick) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful in every way. With 40" of non-combat leaping, it might seem Last Hero would have a chance to flee, but since Last Hero irrationally (and frequently) seeks exactly the sort of "honourable combat" a one-on-one with Captain America represents, he'd swing, miss and very soon be knocked out. Or just be stunned and knocked out, since Captain America is so much faster. Gladiatrix (brick) - a walkover. Captain America is too powerful across the board. Gladiatrix has no ability to flee this fight, and like Last Hero she would never try to. That's a casual knockout for Captain America. Chain Lightning (energy projector and martial artist) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful. Chain Lightning would try out his lightning attack - would it go through the shield? No. (He'd be wildly lucky to hit in the first place, and find this out.) Then (if still conscious) he'd try his chain-and-martial-arts. That's an immediate knockout for Captain America. Tinker (gadgeteer) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful. Tinker had trouble with thugs with revolvers. (Mostly because of moral restraints, but partly because he was much better with energy and electricity than with kinetic attacks - which of course Captain America deals out in spades.) Fearless (martial artist) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful in every way. Fearless would try to extend the fight (though even if that worked it would only result in Captain America making more Find Weakness rolls on him and eventually doing more BODY to him. Fearless' first action would be an attempt to dodge or block. It would probably be his last action of the fight. Ka-powie! Captain America wins. Thunder (brick) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful in every way. If allowed to attempt an attack, Thunder tries a punch, misses as she was wont to do against every sort of foe, and very soon gets knocked out by Captain America. Boomer (brick) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful in every way. The fight would be the same as with Thunder. Heat (energy projector) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful in all sorts of ways. With his high perception, Captain America should nail Heat even before he uncloaks to fight. If not, it doesn't matter: as far as an energy projector on Heat's level is concerned, Captain America is invulnerable, unstoppable, infallible, invincible. Scarlet Scorpion (martial punching bag) - a walkover. Captain America is far too powerful. Then again, Scarlet Scorpion never met an opponent who wasn't too powerful for him. This is the sort of mismatch that makes me think martial artists should have a "casual superiority" to match the "casual strength" of bricks. I play plain vanilla, non-optimised athletic bricks, for preference, a few martial artists, and fewer energy projectors, egoists and variable power pool users (gadgeteer/other). All these break like a cheap watch stepped on by an elephant against Captain America - because they are the same kind of thing that he is, only he is gigantically superior in all relevant respects, even before you add Captain America's shield, his find weakness, his mega-leadership and his skills. I don't think all of my characters together could slow down Captain America, not that they could all work together in the first place. It's like putting the most athletic kids in the kindergarten in the ring with the world heavyweight boxing champion. Adding a few more of them makes no difference. I console myself by remembering that even Captain America would have to acknowledge the superiority of ... Tank Boy!

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? Glad to meet you, csyphrett! You like the Badger, you followed Grimjack? Say yes, I want to meet a fellow First fan! Of course Grimjack wasn't a hero. He was likely the best villain in his own comic. But what a fantastic character to drive a story! And Badger - hard to sum up. I agree he was not a superhero. But he was pretty amazing anyway.

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill? I've kept lots of my Nexus comics, and for pleasure, not as horrible examples. Is Horatio Hellpop a superhero? I don't think so. He's an assassin, a roving executioner, even though his targets are mass murderers who all have it coming. Is he a hero? Maybe. But I'm inclined to think not. His plans to quit killing and become a philanthropic benefactor never work out. Good intentions aren't enough to make you a hero, you need some success - maybe more success than Horatio has enjoyed so far, though Ylum stands enormously to his credit. (Ylum is a democratic world populated by refugees. After he killed the mass-murdering tyrants of the worlds they came from, they would all have been killed if he left them behind, so he needed some place of asylum for them. Hence Ylum, and later Headworld.) He tries to be a good father, but Ursula XX Imada, the evil mother of his two beautiful and good daughters Scarlet and Sheena, stands in his way. And so on. Maybe he'll be a hero one day, when his efforts bear more fruit, or maybe he already is a hero and I'm being too tough on him. Is he a good character? He's a fantastic character. He's one of my favourite characters. I've got stacks of comics here that say so. But would Horatio Hellpop be entitled to treat Toby Maguire's movie Spiderman, or Frozone, or Mister or Mrs. Incredible as only fellow superheroes, on the same moral level he is? No.