input.jack

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

I dont think I could walk away from Omelas until I had burned it to the ground and freed the current torture child, and given the child a teddy-bear and some hot chocolate.

Anyone who willingly participates in a society like that deserves a knife in the throat.

Hey, Im all about bringing the peace

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

We need a way to quote multiple people in the same post. I gave myself whiplash doing that.

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

As originally laid out, the selected person retains the option to say "no".

 

I think it's totally fair to make an argument that even making the request is immoral, but I think you can also argue that there is difference between "forced compliance" and "strenuously worded request" that does change the moral analysis.

Making the request is immoral, yes. Placing the populace in the position to feel obligated to make the request is even more so.

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

Who says its "dark and malignant" power? It is something that must be done. Its unplesant but its a "cold equation" of their universe and it could all go south of if no one volunteers. Otherwise the society based on this beleif structure of peaceful' date=' just and civlized, more so than are own. A voluntary death per year is required to maintain their world. People make sacrifices for others on a daily basis. Either way the sacrifice dies, one way his/her family, people and culture live on.[/quote']

 

What makes it a "dark and malignant" power is the requirement of a human sacrifice. NOTHING that requires such a sacrifice can be anything BUT dark and malignant. To me, thats the end of the line of reasoning right there. Nothing that requires the sacrifice of sentients in order to be willing to do its job can be considered benevolent.

 

The ethical question here isnt about the willing sacrifice. Its about whether or not this practice is inherently evil. And it is.

 

Also, the goalposts have been moved a bit once more, in that originally there was no evidence one way or another as to whether or not this was a necessary sacrifice. Now we are told that their entire world will be destroyed if they dont.

 

Ultimately, this isnt the issue, however. The issue was "is this evil".

 

Yes, it is.

 

If there is no Power behind the requirement, the evil is in the townsfolk who commit the murders each year. (The willing sacrifice is only willing to be sacrificed because they have grown up being brainwashed into this evil culture and dont realize that it is wrong).

 

If there is a Power behind the requirement, than the evil is in the Power, and it must be stopped.

 

Because the characters involved are Superheroes, and Supers are born to take on exactly this kind of situation, they can and should put a stop to it. And because thsi is taking place in a Supers campaign, I think they should have some sort of shot at succeeding. Otherwise the GM is just yanking the Players' chains.

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

And essentially kill the sacrifice and her/his entire people or at the least doom them to a life of misery? Perhaps I wasn't clear in the oringinal post' date=' but this isn't an "Omelas" type situation. They're life is nice and peaceful, not providing the sacrifice doesn't just end that, it brings the wrath of their Godd(ess) or what have down on the them. Things don't become "normal" they're normal enough as it stands, they get much much worse. Think of it as must sacrifice a boy to Voloano goddess or it erupts, except the Volcano really does erupt if you don't or so the stories say.[/quote']

 

Okay, I hadnt understood that part.

 

Now, two things come to mind. First, the fact that theres an Entity out there that will destroy the people if the sacrifices isnt made, means that the Entity is now the target of retribution and Justice, because IT is the source of the evil. (Revenant calls on his colleague Ankhesenisis to come destroy the God(dess))

 

Second, WTF is an Omelas? Ive seen the name used in several threads, but what the flaming furry heck is it? Where does it come from? Did I nap through something crucial in English Lit class?

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

Knowingly allowing people to sacrifice their lives for no good reason is wrong, sure.

 

 

....The entire point of the dilemma is that you do NOT know whether it is pointless or not.

 

....Do you really think we all think the dilemma is whether to allow a custom that consists of sacrificing virgins for no good reason?

I totally agree with the first statement here.

Point of fact, we -do- know that the sacrifice is not necessary. It is just convenient. The sacrifice is to maintain their idyllic existence. Maybe they should get out and work for their prosperity instead. The goal of the sacrifice (maintain paradise) is a selfish one, and that makes the act even more blatantly evil.

For the third line, yes, I do think alot of people havent gotten the idea that the sacrifice is for selfish reasons, not self-defense. If it was to prevent the wrath of an angry diety from wiping the comminuty out, or something, it would still be wrong, but then the PCs would have their next target lined up for them

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

I have to admit I find it interesting that so many characters just assume that the sacrificial rite isn't required and take no steps to verifiy that it isn't before acting' date=' considering these people's beleifs ignorant superstition by default because they find it distasteful/immoral/useless. Consider how many of the rituals of major relgions today don't make any logical sense, even if not overtly harmful or only borderline so. Does what a non beleiver thinks of a religous practice give them the right to enforce that belief on willing believers that are only bringing "harm" to other willing belivers?[/quote']

 

It was made clear in the original scenario that the sacrifice is not to prevent calamity, but to maintain paradise. Very different things. The reason Revenant would absolutely stop this practice is because snuffing a teenager a year per villiage to maintain your cushy status quo is just plain wrong. Period.

 

And any God that would require such a sacrifice, assuming that it was real, would HAVE to be a Demon/ Evil God. And therefore the sacrifices must be stopped even MORE urgently if there is a real Power behind them.

 

This is the kind of thing that Revenant could spend years trying to eliminate, and not blink an eye about it. No matter the origin of the practice, it is inherently evil and must be stopped.

Re: WWYCD #124 or so:Peace on Earth

Revenant would really hate spending the day with Grimaldi, especially because Grimaldi is insane. He would work on fine-tuning his car, fixing his gadgets, and looking for patterns in the news reports of the previous weeks, because if he were to take the day off, he would risk being destroyed.

Revenant is just that; a revenant. His existence is maintained by his relentless drive to protect the innocent from human predators. If he stopped his efforts completely, even for one day, it might be enough to unmake him.

Besides, how comfortable could -you- be, hanging out with this guy?

Re: WWYCD 101:A question of faith

Revenant, in this situation, would toss down a smoke-bomb, grab the sacrifice (willing or not), clout the Priest on the jaw, and skeedaddle. Then he would take however long it took to apprehend and restrain every adult participant in this ritual, and either cart them off to the authorities, or if they -are- the authorities in the area, hed burn their temple to the ground, smash their alter, and tell them they have to WORK for their paradise now. Hed also check up on them frequently to make sure they didnt try it again. If they managed to overpower and kill him, (unlikely), he would return on the next full moon, and continue what he was doing. For as long as it takes.

BlackHawk would try to get all the young men and women together for an underground party where the old folks cant find them, to arrange it so that by the time of the sacrifice, they were fresh outta virgins ;D

(W)hat would (you) have done in Conselor Troi's no-win situation?

 

Reactor breech. Engineering has lethal radiation levels. Reactor going critical, will explode and kill everyone on the ship if not shut down. Remotes are damaged. Would be possible to shut the reactor down by hand, but anyone doing so will receive a lethal radiation exposure. There are no volunteers. One person dies, or everyone dies. You are in command. Will you order someone to their certain death to shut down the reactor, or kill everyone you are responsible for by failing to give the order? Saying you would do it yourself is cheating, changing the paramiters of the problem ("There are no volunteers"), answer as asked or not at all please.

The test is flawed. If someone is in a command position, then there are only two alternatives if no one volunteers. One is to order someone to their death. Doesnt matter who. The other is to do it yourself.

Those are the ONLY two choices. The test having parameter of the commanding officer refusing to volunteer makes that commander unworthy of command. Not because he should volunteer, but because if he is unwilling to even consider it as an option then he is unworthy to lead others.

Most superhero types would do it themselves. Most military commanders would have to decide who among the crew was most expendable, and order that person to do it.

Im not saying the military outlook is unethical; quite the contrary. But superheroes are accustomed to making their own decisions and being the only ones accountable for them. Military commanders are trained to analyze the situation logically, and in that situation, what you need is someone to go in and flip the switch. It doesnt take alot of training of skill to do that, and the commanding officer represents a great deal of invested time and training on the part of the organization, and therefore is considered one of the least expendable people on the ship. For the commanding officer to do it himself can actually be considered -irresponsible- of him, especially if there are other threats to the ship nearby. But a worthy commanding officer would at least have considered it as a possibility.

By the way, I have had to make exactly this kind of command decision in-game during a few Star Trek type games. Its not fun.

On the other hand, regardless of the villagers seeing the sacrifice of one of their youths as a "religious obligation", what they are doing, willing sacrifice or not, is inherently evil. Just as it was considered the "religious obligation" of the Aztecs to tear the still-beating hearts out of tens of thousands of people to "sanctify" a new temple. Evil is evil, regardless of the clothing it wears, and the murder of innocents for the purpose of furthering of your own comfort is evil.

The difference between self sacrifice and human sacrifice is this. Self sacrifice occurs when there is a real, imminent danger that threatens death or grievious harm to the group, and one of hte group makes the conscious decision to take the brunt of it to spare the rest from having to. Human sacrifice is the murder of one person by the group because they are afraid of what might happen if they dont, without tangible evidence to back that fear up.

Even -with- tangible evidence of the need for a sacrifice (like a local dragon who stops by annually for a "bride"), the practice is immoral and evil. If youve got a dragon demanding tribute, you either hire adventurers to kill the dragon, or you move. If its a case like the Greeks having to sent ten young boys and girls to the Cretans every year as tribute, with the threat of the Cretans crushing the Greeks if they dont, its more udnerstandable on the aprt of the Greeks, but its still evil and morally wrong (though the burden of this rests on the people of Crete, in this case).

If a stronger fore compells a sacrifice, then they are evil and must be stopped. If your own people compel the sacrifice, -especially- for something as self-serving as "maintaining paradise", then YOU are evil and must be stopped.

Good and evil are not subject to relativism. And upholding good is very, very hard.

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

"We're evil Satanic supervillains' date=' we've got to think big! WE MUST SACRIFICE THE VIRGIN ISLANDS!"[/quote']

 

THATS how a REAL Master Villain talks!

Re: UV vision

Our campaigns have two kinds of UV vision:

Passive UV (5 pts): Allows the character to see as well in normal darkness as a normal person can at twilight, so long as there is some ambient ultraviolet light, or weak light. This would include moonlight, or a moonless night with stars out, or pretty much any time there is even the faintest amount of light. In practice, this means that unless youre in a totally enclosed space, like the interior of a building, or in a mineshaft, youre fine. Passive UV is rather "grainy" and while you can see whats what, you take a small (-2) penalty to Per rolls to see details.

Active UV (10 pts). The character not only sees UV light, but is also capable of emitting UV light in small amounts through natural phosphoresence. The character can see as well as a normal person in good light, regardless of the lighting conditions. (Smoke is a totally different matter). The character can be in a large trunk at the bottom of a mineshaft at night during a total eclipse, and still read the ingredients on the back of the wrapper of their twinkies.

Re: Hardcore hero?

Shallow cuts clot faster.

Deeper cuts make a much larger stain on the carpet, and eventually you run out.

See? Balance

Re: solid light holograms

I ran this exact powerset as Forcewalls, with Images, and Telekinesis limited to Animating the Force Walls. It treats the Force Wall as it would any other inanimate object being Animated, giving you your in-the-rules parameters for Defense, Strength, etc, for created solid light holograms.

Re: Irksome players

Along the lines of the "Me Too" Player is the "Im There Too" Player. This Player has to be in on every conversation, regardless of where its taking place.

Example: Im running a superhero game. One player has a super martial-artist character named "Starfist". Another is playing a character who is an *ahem* homage to Superman, named "Ultraman". (Great character though. Thick Tennessee accent and manages to be both heroic as you could ever want, and homespun funny. Like Will Rogers with superpowers). The third player has a character named "Panther".

Several of the characters are engaged in conversation in the teams main lobby. panther, of course, is in on the conversation, amking comments and giving suggestions.

UM's player says to me "Im gonna tap Starfist on the shoulder and lead her upstairs to the monitor room, so's we can have a private conversation".

I nod, and the two players distance themselves from the other players a bit, so that their conversation in private doesnt have to be carried out across the conversation in the main lobby. Im more or less in the middle of things, as is appropriate for the GM.

So, Starfist and Ultraman begin discussing some private information relating to the case, but as they are old-time members of the team, and some of the newer members (including Panther) havent really earned their stripes yet, they decided to keep some information back from them/

Lo and behold, in the middle of Ultraman and Starfist's conversation, Panther chimes in.

I call a halt to both conversations, and explain (again) to Panthers player that shes in the main lobby, not in the upstairs monitor room, and cant hear what UM and Starfist are saying through the closed door.

Ultraman's player raises a Spockian eyebrow, leeeeeeeans in closer to Panthers player, and says,

"Just who do you think you are? ME??"

Re: Hardcore hero?

I know someone (who posts on these very boards) who already wrote it' date=' way back in third edition.[/quote']

 

*Sigh* That would be...me

Re: Need a seventh character

Id go with a terra-kinetic or ice manipulator. In Colorado either would be useful.

That, or an alien. I have a character in my campaign named Crimson Avenger who is an extraterrestrial being made of Solid Light. He comes across alot like Martian Manhunter in that he is super strong, tough, can fly, can be intangible, and change his shape. He cant read minds (that wouldnt make sense) but as the campaign progresses hes been learning to project his solid light out from himself, kind of like a Green lantern power ring on a smaller scale.

Re: Superhero Images

Shes currently staying at Revenant's "Crypt", so her calls may be screened....

Re: WWYCD choosing between two villains to stop?

Revenant- Deal with the small-timer now. Lethal takedowns are never an option. If, in the middle of the fight, Revenant overhears the radio announcement that the Big Fish is now active and doing something that threatens alot of people, slip a tracer onto the Little Fish during the scuffle, let him think he gave me the slip, go off to deal with the Big Fish, and collect the Little Fish later.

Preferably when hes in his hideout and thinks hes safe

Re: Introducing Scott Free Press!

Aloha, Kev!

Ive taken a look at your site, and I think that there are some pretty good items there that are going to be very useful. And as you said, alot of it is free.

Youve got some serious drive, my friend. I commend you for that.

If youre going to be translating characters into HERO, I cant recommend HeroDesigner highly enough. Takes abut one fifth the time to write people up in HD than it does by hand, and as crowded as your schedule is, Im sure you can use the added efficiency

Anyway, good luck with the site, thanks for bringing it to our attention, and I hope your efforts on the part of the charities brings them needed help

Re: one year to change the world

X-Ray vision to see thru cave walls, and near Flash-level superspeed help alot on that

Re: NOBLES, KNIGHTS, AND NECROMANCERS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

A couple of "sample nobles" like the Frontier Baron and the Self Indulgent Duke might be nice. There should be a few allies for the PCs, like the Frontier Baron who is trying to make his holdings secure from incursions from the wilderness, and the Self Indulgent Duke doesnt have to be -evil-....just really into hedonism. So he might ask the party to travel across the continent to Frangia to bring back a wagon load of the finest wine in the world, or he might be the one who "accidentally" summoned a Succubus-type demon to "amuse" party guests, and now cant imagine how it could have gone so wrong!

Re: Superhero Images

Thanks! I like to try to have a bit of something creep past the edge of the "box" when I can; not too much, but a little something.

Because of Revenant's position, I couldnt figure out how to really do the same thing for him, though. Let a little of the cape out and youve gotta deal with the whole thing!

Here is the final version of the Gothic City Knights; Revenant, Jade Spectre, and Goblyn.

Re: Unlucky in Love?

Physical Limitation: Romantic Argonaut (10)

NONE of the Argonauts had a good ending. Especially Jason.

Re: Superhero Images

I did this as the cover-page for my campaign notebook. The two characters are (top) American Eagle; a sort of Superman-type character, and (bottom) Revenant, a Batman-type character.

Both have differences from their "archetypes"; American Eagle got his powers in the explosion of a Nazi cosmic-energy machine in WWII (that also gave the same powers to his arch-nemesis, Baron Zerstorung). Revenant is...well...a revenant! His entire family, himself included, was killed on Halloween by pirates in 1654. He came back.

Comments welcome

Re: Quote of the Week from my gaming group...

PLEASE lets have one thread that doesnt go political!

Okay, so a few years ago, some friends and I are playing a D&D game. (The Gm was intimidated by HERO. We tried to get him to run it, We really did. But anyway)...

The character group is being led by a Paladin. She was fairly new to the Order, as we were all fairly low level (Third, I think).

As we ride down a winding road, just after sundown but before it was completely dark, the GM tells us that we begin to notice that the trees around us have black, wet-looking bark, and that mounds of damp rotting leaves coat the ground. We press on, and the GM tells us that in the growing darkness, the trees begin to look more and more menacing, and that there is a wind rustling through the leaves.

Good description work, really.

And then the GM turns to the Player of the Paladin and says, "So....when do you use Detect Evil?"

The Player (my friend Tom, who is kind of like a cat personified) gives the GM a rather cold look, pauses, and then says"...When I tell you I use it. And certainly not now!"