Cantriped

Re: Magic System Crunch Hmm, I'd never run into that so it's never even crossed my mind. I started in DnD so the idea of a Warrior type cherry-picking magic is somewhat forign

Re: Elves Technially the Fae (my Elven equivalent) species could do the same thing (at least within the humaniod genus), but thier influence is far more benign in most unions.

Re: Magic System Crunch rev #4 Next Rev I plan on adding some sections on Spell construction considerations, that should help flesh out the conception considerably.

Re: Magic System Crunch Well Those are certainly options I'd also considered, I'm not particularly hell bent on the idea of requiring specific types of limitations, but it would add a level of differenciation between mortal magic and say, Otherwordly magic. For humans it's more about "mimicry", like an amateur just repeating what they've seen real masters doing. while for the otherwordly races, ones who retain their strong connection to the Spectral realm, magic is just a matter of will, thouhg it's a bit slower the mortals haphazzrd castings. Mechanicly it'd be equivalent to requiring "mortal races" use at least one Foci or Gestures based procedure, while more "Spiritual" races require Concentration or Extra-Time based procedures. I'd also been toying with the idea of the "point" of no return, If I use it I'd probably set it at -19 to 20, because at that range the END Cost of a spell would automaticlly exceed the AP of the spell. (1+(18/2)=10) (10* 1/10AP = 10/10 AP) but even at that highly unlikely level of failure I'd rather not deny them their desperation ploy unless, again I see it being abused. At the very least I think I'll add in the caveat that the character has to apply SOME procedure (besides Extra-time), it could be as simple as a -1/4 gesture for all I care, as long at it's something to indicate some actual effort to coax the magic energy involved. Some declarion of intent.

Re: Need help designing a Magic System Thats largly why I've avoided VPP systems, though my curent system resents much of the flexibility of a VPP, your still limited to spelleffects you have paid for. Alternatly you could [cannibalize] one of Killer-Shrikes many magic systems and adjust to taste...mmm needs more salt.

Re: Magic System Crunch rev # 3 Also, one problem I want to avoid is that without at least some "default" procedure, or something that it required across the board, it would become essentially impossible to "keep a good wizard down" as they would apply only those procedures not restircted by their curent situation, or simply take the risk of KOing themselves and apply none at all when they used their Teleport to get someplace safe. While partially thats simply good stratagy, I don't like to think of mages as omnipotent in any stretch. So for mortal mages I was thinking along the lines of the following. since it fits the SFX nicely I was thinking of requireing that the caster present some physical representation of the pattern for the spell he's casting. this could be a Diagram he draws as a Spellcasting Procedure (Ala Full Metal Alchemist), or a spellfoci, and item encised(or stitched/carved/painted etc) with the correct seals and sigils to describe that particular spell (or perhaps even a narrow SFX). The creation of Spellfoci would probably be handled though normal skillrolls appropiate to particular item, and thereafter treated as equipment in the normal fasion. For pricing I'd likely price them as Combat Skill Levels and simply rename them. This gives me a better variation in price (effective or otherwise) of the level for differing levels of applicability. The fact that they are linked to Limitations equivalent to 1/4th per +1 I would just handwave since the levels arn't likely to be large enough for limitations to be applicable anyway

Re: Magic System Crunch Thanks Eosin! Anyway, We're now up to revision #2. I've reduced the Skill Roll Failure Penalty to a multiplier of 1+[Amount Failed]/2. Even with the reduction though Mages are likely to drop like flies if they cast over extended periods without rest. Like Combat... Also Hugh, I understand the concept for spellfailure, but I'm not entirely sure it fits, or is really necessary. (plus I've never liked it much) I'm not so worried about retributive strikes as you've outlined them in that they seems like the perfect thing for the evil villian to do, bringing down curses with their final breath. And in the case of PCs if they are desperate enough to throw their characters life away, or know their dead anyway, it might give them an (albeit) minor sense of acomplishment to know that they took the ******* with em. Though I may change it if I feel it's being abused in a Meta-gaming sense.

Re: Magic System Crunch

Re: Elves Hmm, I played an old and alchoholic Elf "martial artist type" He used a dual wielded a Wakisashi and a meat cleaver... yeah...

Re: Elves I love this Thread!!!![End Excessive Exlamation Point Use Here] Anyway I always tended to like elves, especially Elven mages, an somewhere in my head I've designed a whole Mage-clan of Elven characters (I'm not kidding, and I played all of them). But strangely, even though I don't like em, what PnP playtime I got was mostly playing Dwarves, (Dwarven Clerics in particular) There was just something about the image of a dark cavern of dwarven miners, all working, while a priest with a set of drums kept tempo that was inatly attractive. By the way, I've also never liked clerics (or any divine spell caster)... Go figure eh?

Re: Magic System Crunch Now off to make corrections and revisions, I'll be making them to the Initial post for ease of reference

Re: Magic System Crunch You would make seperate rolls for each spell, with differing Bonuses based on what procedures you used to reduce the penalties.

Examples Attack Spells: Ensnaring Fetters: Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF, Trigger (Spell Must be Recast For Trigger to Reset; Entering Hex In Which Fetters Were Set; +1/4) (50 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restricted Duration: 1 Hour (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4). Skill Roll: -10. RP/AC: 18/2. Fireball: Energy Blast 6d6, Penetrating (+1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points); Spell (-1/2). Skill Roll: -15. RP/AC 50/5. Warfetter: (Total: 82 Active Cost, 37 Real Cost) Darkness to Sight, Touch, Radio, Hearing and Smell/Taste Groups 1" radius, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Only Effects Targets In the Area when the Power initially Activated (-1/2), Spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 30) plus Naked Modifier: MegaScale (1" = 100 km; +1/2) for up to 30 Active Points, Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Only To Keep Targets From Regaining Senses by Leaving Warfetters Initial Area (-1), Linked (Darkness; -1/2), Spell (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7). Skill Roll -16 RP/AC: 37/4 Defencive Spells Mage Armor: Armor (4 PD/4 ED) (12 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Visible (-1/4). Skill Roll: -2. RP/AC: 8/1. Passive Spells Accelerated Healing: Simplified Healing 2d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (6 Hours; +1/4) (25 Active Points); Gradual Effect (6 Hours; -1 1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect only affects the recipient of the benefits of the Power; 1 LTE/5 AP; -1/2). Skill Roll: -5. RC/AC: 8/1. Celerity of Light: Flight 20", combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Only In Straight Lines (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), no Noncombat movement (-1/4). Skill Roll: -10. RC/AC: 22/2. [Example Character Comming Soon]

Alright, Here I am again, putting up a magic system. This time though I'm not looking for praise or use or anything similer. Basicly I need some critique and help balancing it. Any Feedback is welcome though. At the moment all I have are the mechanics for basic spellcasting, but it's based loosly on Killer Shrikes Spellweaving system. Anyway heres what I got in as simple and readable a format as I can make it. Basic Spellcasting No Framworks (except to define specific spells) Power Construct for spells may only take SFX Limitations. No Procedural Limitations (Gestures, Incantations, etc) Spells must take minimum of 1 Half-Phase to Activate. Powers which normally take a 0-phase to activate get a -1/4 limitation for this. (It is considered an SFX Limitation) Powers Must Cost END, either inherently or because they are purchased with the appropiate limitation. Powers Must be Visible, or at least have their Source be visible. Spells which are constant should almost never cost END to maintain, and have the Uncontroled modifier. It not only helps conserve the mages strength, but it is also more in line with the desired feel of the system. As a rule of thumb, when using the Uncontroled modifier, powers which require a set duration (like ones that don't cost END to maintain) should be set to 20 Minutes + one level down the time chart per 40 AP after the first. 1-40=20 minutes, 41-80=1 Hour, 81-120 = 6 Hours, etc. Spells Automaticly recieve the RSR: "Eldritch Control" Limitation at -1/5 AP. This Limitation is a system ground rule and has no limitation value. (See "Casting Procedure Rules" for more information) Skill Roll Failure does not indicate power failure, but rather suffer Backlash, Multiplying the END Cost by 1 + [Amount Roll is Failed By]/2. Constant powers may still deactivate if the user is knocked out or stunned as a result of exaustion of END, Also, for powers which cost END to maintain the increased cost only applies when the power is first activated. Eldritch Control Skill is an INT based skill costing 3 points. Characters do not purchase Skills levels in the normal fasion (See below). Characters may not define spells as drawing from END reserves Spells recieve Cost Multiplier of 0.1 (or 1/10 of the Spells Real Point Cost) Casting Procedure Rules Characters apply a given Procedure (represented as a limitation or group of limitations), or several procedures, to his spells in order to make them easier to cast (represented as a bonus to the skill roll. These are considered a special kind of skill level. Characters must apply at least one procedural limitation to all spells cast. Additionally, This 'Procedure' must be a Diagram by SFX, whether it is Drawn right there, crafted as a Foci, or even Tattooed is irrelevent to this caveat. Each "Procedure" grants +1 to the Eldritch Control Skill roll for every -1/4 in limitations it applies to the spell the roll is being made for. Rarely, procedures involve the use of modifiers which are not actually procedural limitations. Most often these are the Delayed Effect Advantage (and storing lims) or modifiers representing SFX limitations for that specific procedure. Storing Limitations and these SFX lims still acumalate levels of the spell they are used with, but at half the rate (+1 per -1/2 rather then +1 per -1/4). Advantages, such as Delayed Effect, are ignored to the purposes of determining number of levels granted. Each Procedure known by the caster must be approved by the GM; As must which of those procedures a caster can combine in the same casting (naturally). Optionally, the GM can choose to represent the characters knowledge of differing way of casting (procedures) through a knowledge skill. KS: [Nation/culture] Spellcasting, aside from effecivly acting as a familarity for that cultures Spell Procedures character would be allowed to make rolls to remember other information about that culture or groups magical tradition. The Benefits (and Limitations) of each procedure are treated seperately regardless of the exact mechanics used, although some procedures may not be used together if the limitations representing them conflict. Misc. Rules Considerations Once a caster has begun a spell, he may not abort it regardless of the results of the skill roll. (Basicly he can't abort the spell if he failed the roll) The sucess or failure of each spell is determined seperately, thusly multiple spells cast in the same phase make seperate Skill Rolls, and any END cost from failure is determined seperately for each spell. Learning magic represents a serious carreer path, the learning of which takes many years of discipline and conditioning. As such, character may not purchase less then 20 character points worth of spells when designing a spellcasting character. In some incredibly rare cases, it would be thematicly appropiate for a spell to truely require a specific procedure to opperate ("song"-based spells would inherently require Incantations for example). In such cases the power may be purchased with a procedural limitation. However to keep the system consistant such spells are also purchased with a number of Skill levels in Eldritch Control appropiate to the limitation linked to that power. These would basicly be built in exactly the same fashion as a procedure, only linked to the power. SFX Considerations Healing: Healing under this form of magic is extraordinarily limited, following the stereo type held in most forms of arcane magic. The best even the most capable of healers can do it's expidite the healing process, though the increase is literally exponential, some recovering from near fatal injuries in days or less. Mechanics: Healing Effects should nigh universally be purshased with the Gradual Effect, and Decreased (or increased) Reuse Duration modifiers, and must be set to the same level on the Time Chart. Suchs spells should also never restore more then 2d6/6 hours. Though exceptions, such as Healing: Flash, Exist. Equipment As 'Spell-Foci': A spellfoci would essentially be a piece of equipment, jewlery or clothing which has had a "diagram" already drawn/etched/stitched into it. These would simply be handled as "Equipment", and built with skills the character possesses. Mechanicly they would be skill-levels purchased with the apropiate level of Foci, and an SFX limitation for how narrowly they can be applied (-1 for only a specific spell, -3/4 for a narrow group, -1/2 for a medium group, -1/4 for a large group). Naturally the number of levels given would still be limited by the value in limitations applied to them as normal procedures would be, but are otherwise handeled as equipment, and could in-fact be weapons or armor. Thus having other non-related powers attached. However only limitations on the actual levels would be counted when determining the bonus granted, and are counted normally (1:1 for 'Procedures' like the Foci itself, 1:1/2 for SFX like how broadly it can be applied). Tattoos As 'Spell Foci': There is no reason to believe that if it works on item it won't work on living flesh, As such character may purchase actual levels (with points of course, since it can't be taken away) defined as a Diagram they have tattooed upon their bodies. The Same SFX lim for Spell-Foci applies to these 'tattoo-foci'. In place of the Focus Limitation the Tattoo gets to take a 'sfx' limitation based on how much of his body the Tattoo takes up, Basicly it's -1/2 per Location (or -1/4 if only 'half' the location is used). These are counted as SFX because they don't make the spell any harded to cast, only limiting how many you can have. Note, to make up the cost of the Tattoo, if the GM permits it the player may take a Distinctive Features with it, the value generally dependant upon how expansive the tattoos are. (though he only gets one DF, regardless of how many Tattoos it represents). a Character with a Tattoo running from his Left Shoulder all the way to his left hand, with a smaller tattoo on his right hand, would get -1&1/4 in sfx lims, if the tatto could only be used for a specific spell that -2&1/4 in sfx lims, for a total of +4.5 (rounded up to 5 levels) to that spell and. Additional Fluff Information Transmutation: This field of magic deals with the reconstruction of matter under specific physical laws. Transmutation requires little maintence to produce long lasting effects, and is highly prone to colateral damage. Because Transmutation is fettered by physical laws, it is often viewed as little more then a science by those who practice it. Practicioners of Transmutation frequently go under the name of Transmuter, though Wizard isn't entirely unheard of either, and in some cultures they are known under the misnomer of "Alchemist" Ensorclement: This field of magic deals with the creation of metaphysical constructions that are not fettered by physical laws. Ensorclement usually creates effects of a metaphycial nature, but because they do not follow natural, physical laws, they require neigh constant maintence to remain effective. As such ensorclement does not seem to effect the ensorcled objects actual physical nature. The upshot is that because spells of ensorclement do not follow natural, physical laws, they can bend these laws in accordance with the metaphysical laws that do bind them. Practicioners of Ensorclement are known by many names depending upon the country of origin and specific variations in that country's magical traditions, but Sorcerer and Enchanter are the most common names. The Eldtritch Theory: The Eldritch theory states the existance of an environmental force called "Eldritch" which when coaxed into the correct pattern, creates a magical effect. Naturally if the proper measures are not taken to coax the energy properly then with the seal is activated it will tear the necessary energy from the closest available source, the caster. The Gate Theory: The Gate theory holds that magic is performed by creating "gates" which connect primal acrhetypes, deities, or spirits (variations exist depending on culture) with the material plane. These archetypes or spirits or what have you, can then be channaled through the gate to create a magical effect. However if the proper preparations are not taken the caster is punished for thier impudence. The Resonence Theory: The resonence Theory states that the entire universe, both physical and spectoral, is composed of countless invisible strings vibrating against eachother at a different frequency, and that the diagram (seal) used in spellcasting, combined with specific procedures, can modify the resonsnece of the strings near the caster, creating a "magical" effect. Of course any change in resonsonence requires energy to produce, and the less adquete the procedures taken to change to resonence are, the more physical energy the caster must expend in creating the effect.

Re: Elves My world has the Fae, which are generally very "Elven"

Re: Magic System Question #4 Yeah, universe saving devices are called "Plot Device". and forcing players to sac points for something that will only be used once at the climax of a campaign is frankly kinda silly. as such the afore mentioned items Real Point worth is kinda irrelevent. But for the sake of argument if I were to make an "Artifact" of such campaign magnitude that there can be only one of them in the entirity of creation, ever (I never would). Then a mere -2 lim would be totally inappropiate. For a oneshot "Magi-Nuke" I'd go for -5 to -6, including charges and such

Re: Magic System Questions #5---the real one I might build that as a Compound power, starting with just normal missile deflection. then the Reflection Adder as a seperate "power" with Time Delay (or perhaps delayed effect) (Missile is "Reflected" on [timescale X] after being "intercepted"] Naturally you would also need the adder "Reflect At Any Target", and then flavor the whole thing with limitations to taste. This would create a power that lets you intercept an incomming missile, and then reflect it anywhere you want on a later phase. but to do the reflection you would have to have gone into Missile Reflection mode on your own phase (or by holding you action), you can't abort to it.

Re: The cost of bases... Eh, we could continue this argument til the world fell down around us and neither of us is likely to change our mind before then, so lets just agree to disagree on this one.

Re: Racial Restrictions on magic builds I've done it in a round about fashion, Thematiclly all my racial groups still follow the same required, but mechanically some have workarounds. Humans have to draw symbols or otherwise have them present as a foci to cast a spell, and it hard for humans so they have to make a skill roll to cast. Fey follow all the same restrictions as humans except no skill roll, and they are limited in the types of spells they can use. Demons, and demonicly influence magic is the most easy to do, as Demons are basicly just consious "cosmic VPP"s with the sfx of being [physicaly] nothing more then a large red gem. they can warp reality at a whim, but have to put limitations like Extra Time and Gradual effect on their magic to represent that demons while the most openended can't do anything fast. They use the same kind of patterns that human and fey casting does, but in their case its an inate process that occurs within the gem.

Re: Bizarre Spell Ideas (oh and better then tenticals ov mere blood) Even's Spiked Tenticals of Forced Intrustion (Aka "ESTOFI") "I'm not comfortable being grappled there!" (source in this case is of course is Vaarsuvius, from "The Order of the Stick" webcomic)

Re: Bizarre Spell Ideas "For a good time, call Snuggles the elf" This powerful rune mage summons the grafitti demon known as "For-a-good-time-call-snuggles-the-elf" when his name is invoked. Note he hates being called by anything other then his full name, and if memory serves deals out a wicked nuggie. the only way to get rid of him, as I remember is pancakes. I can't be entirely sure as "...-snuggles-..." origionated in one of my parents old DnD games

Re: The cost of bases... Alright, lets try a different tact, as this discussion has already degenerated into a round robin, neither of us is really making new points. And I’m pretty sure we’ve thoroughly jacked this thread anyway. So anyway, I’ll try to keep this brief>>> To summarize, you don’t think characters should pay for Base Area (or that such a cost should be included in the calculations at all) because it has no direct mechanical benefit. Space is nothing more then an SFX, and as such should have absolutely no bearing on any mechanical build. I disagree on the grounds that sufficient area is a necessity for the direct mechanical benefit, thus making it an indirect mechanical benefit. That aside, having a larger base can provide other indirect benefits which may or may not be convertible to a power construct. In my mind this makes it partially comparable to say, Skill levels for a “Magic” skill to use your spells. The skill levels themselves are doing almost nothing; they certainly aren’t crisping your enemy. But without them you wouldn’t be able to use the powers which do crisp then enemy. In fact the skill itself has No Direct Mechanical Benefit as it is a byproduct of the RSR Limitation on another existing power construct. An example of what I mean by a indirect benefit are pitfalls, since all they are is (literally) a tube of empty space with a sharp stop at the end, the only part of your average pitfall trap that might need a power construct is the “door” or whatever conceals the trap. (Images, only to disguise a trap) and even then a player could probably just get away with a sufficient Concealment roll during the planning stages of construction, and maybe some more complementary ones from the builders during construction. The builder has gained a solid mechanical advantage by exploiting that short of a flight or gliding power, things usually go “ker-splat!” when they suddenly fall down long tubes with reinforced floors at the bottom. And the only thing he may have paid points for was the trick floor, which may have been as small an investment as a single roll of a 3-pt skill. And darn, I didn’t keep it brief. Anyway that’s what I mean by buying potential, I agree that potential is only worth as much as what it’s used for, but space can be used for things that provide mechanical benefits to the character, but do not otherwise cost a dime

Re: [sigil Campaign] The Journal of Typhus I always like the planescape setting, or anything do to with planar travel and cosmology, but never played an entire game based around it (unless you count the CRPG Planescape Torment) but it wasn't really the same.

Re: Magic System Question #1 Thats generally what I try for... then a stupid thing like realism bloats a paragraph long magic system concept into a 3 page mechanical nightmare!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!! *runs around like chicken with head cut off, then colapses a moment later*

Re: The cost of bases... Although that is a valid point, it isn't what I meant. No I mean being able to keep a party from power creeping at an inane level when a 5 point perk and a little patience are all that necessary to accumulate an ungodly amount of RP worth of Enchanted Crap Advanced Weapons etc etc etc, unless of course you do one of three things, no magic crap at all, just don't let them buy it (even if they really can afford whatever the previous owner to realistically take for it), or continually find ways to rape the players of money and/or magic crap. None of these options seem particularly nice, fun or likely to keep your players. Unless you have a better solution that it? That’s not what the ladies say... anyway seriously. I don't think it is unreasonable at all. in the example above you gave dragons, an excellent example, well mechanically speaking. Isn't the entirely of the difference between the Baby and the adult dragons represent that from a thematic point of view one is older and much bigger. As such one can make a correlation to the dragons mechanical value, and the size of the space it is likely to inhabit. as it's Mechanics represent its size and strength (using the term loosely), which would effect the amount of space it needs to be comfortable, the amount of food it would eat, how much payment for it's services it might or might not charge (either in actually coin or perhaps "donations" (again, using the term loosely) to its hoard. These are all factors that would be of note to somebody choosing a Dragon as a Pet over say, a crap load of Orcish Mercs. but I'm on a tangent. There is also an aspect of internal consistency that must be addressed. in Disadvantages, Powers, Limitations, anything which effects an Area or the size of that area, is assigned (if only an abstract) mechanical worth. Example 1: Range, in most cases, unless the power is specifically "limited" range wise (which in and of itself give the range a certain value), it can hit just about anything you can see, so why does increasing that further with an advantage benefit you? Example 2: Area, The change environment power, which is often used purely for SFX type effects and minor combat effects, must pay for the size of it's area, same for Darkness, Images, and certainly any power bought with the AoE advantage. Example 3: Hunted; Although a "Hunted"s worth is based primarily on relative power, there is a modifier for range, indicating again, that spatial dimensions do have some worth. Point: If all these other things have some spatially relatable value, that it would be inconsistent of a Perk (in case a Base) to be exempt from this. Moving on to the Science Lab. There actually is a very simple advantage to having that same +3 split up over 30x30 rather then 10x10. Destroyability: for one thing it will take much longer on average to destroy a larger lab, be that more grenades, more time spent on movement to hack at beakers, or more high yield explosives, either way that amount of are will take more resources to bomblast. Also another advantage to having a larger area, say if your attacked inside said area. you have 1) more room to maneuver, or if your at the top of the tower and they at the bottem, they have to wind themselves jsut getting to you, all the while you might have the opportunity to be blasting them to hell as the run up the spiril staircase. Indeed! As a final note I'd like to point out that were the rules charging you for say, the afore mentioned Spiral Staircase which the players will exhaust themselves on, or windows, then I would be 100% behind you, but their not charging you for a Spiral staircase, their charging you for potential. the Ability to put a spiral staircase there, or maybe a barracks for all those Orc Mercs you hired. etc. As such what that rules is charging you for in my opinion is Potential. namely because if you have a larger base you simply have more room to do interesting things while still maintaining functionality which is most definitely an advantage in my mind