massey

Special effect? "Round 2, Fight!" Mine is much better, because I wake up a full phase earlier. You aren't getting up on your first phase, you're getting up on your second. I can take another recovery if I want (so I'm getting to my feet at the same time as you) and then I've got 25 Stun and End. That's probably plenty of End to get me to the next post-12. Let's agree that 6th edition didn't really improve things. Overall I think the changes were poor, but I agree that things weren't perfect before. Sure. But which character do you think is going to be the most effective overall? The point is you shouldn't try to balance costs because of Fantasy Hero (or other heroic games that only use a part of the system).

Then let's set the rest of that discussion aside, since ultimately we agree on this point. I was attempting to show how it was costed correctly before, and it's not now. And I think it's indicative of a larger pattern. Yeah. And one choice is clearly a lot more effective than the other. That's part of what I've been arguing -- heroic point balance isn't possible because too much of it takes place in a vacuum. You're basically trying to balance an incomplete system where the game designer doesn't know what will be added later. Thus, they shouldn't change the point costs of the complete system (i.e., at superheroic levels) to benefit some versions of the partial system.

My favorite character was in a concept game where we had unlimited points. We told the GM what we wanted and he built the characters for us. It was in a mixed Marvel/DC world where we were playing descendants of the original heroes. Not an End Reserve in sight. That's why I said I wasn't here trying to save a beloved character. Hugh Neilson (who has posted quite a bit above) was, I believe, part of the crew who helped make the changes that lead to 6th edition. He posted his own commentary a page or so back. I think we've got evidence in this very thread of "what they were thinking". I said earlier that Steve Long didn't follow the original design philosophy that was present in 4th edition and earlier. I stand by that 100%. Now he doesn't have to, he bought the game. He can do with it what he wants. But as a result, what we've really got are two different systems layered on top of one another. In that sense, it's "arbitrary". I'll give you an important example. In 4th edition and earlier, the question was often proposed "How do you make a dragon who can do a claw/claw/bite?" The answer was "buy it a higher Speed". I don't know if you can find one of the 4th ed FAQs around anymore, but that was the answer that was always given. In 5th edition and later, we got the Rapid Attack maneuver. We got Multiple Power Attack. We got the ability to use multiple martial art maneuvers as part of the same action. This was a fundamental change to the nature of the system. Some players really liked these changes, and some players didn't, but it was a clear difference from the "1 phase = 1 action" mentality that preceded it. The 5th edition multiple martial art maneuver rules were so broken that we just had to say "no, that's ridiculous". Too many legsweep/grab/nerve strike/joint break combos. The Hero System took a sharp turn towards increasing offensive firepower.

Sigh. I think you're assuming bad faith on my part, and that's not warranted. As I said earlier, 6th edition went over like a lead balloon here. We're still playing a mixture of 4th and 5th, so whatever cost changes were made here haven't affected any of my characters at all (favorite characters or not). And I haven't built a character who used an End Reserve in about 20 years. The entire purpose of posting the Increased End + End Reserve breakdown was to show why End Reserve was priced the way it was in 5th edition and earlier. It was to illustrate the cost relationship between End Reserve and Charges. I was attempting to walk the reader through the process, showing why that power was priced as it was. I took a lot of time to show the relationship, how one was approximately the same as the other. That it was costed in such a way that even if you are trying to abuse it, it doesn't really gain you anything. I thought I had illustrated it sufficiently for everyone to understand. You want to know how I know they didn't do the math? Because there's the big warning on page 206, that you posted above, telling GMs that they should watch out for it because it can result in "unbalanced, overly powerful characters". But it was an inefficient use of points, even in 5th edition. It's a definite waste in 6th. They're warning people against something that sucks.

You think those characters are totally balanced with each other? Okay... Bob and John are playing in a Star Wars game. People get 3D6 RKA blaster pistols that never run out of ammo or jam. Bob spends his 10 points on Strength...

John can shoot people in melee too.

You're saying that they were aware of the cost relationships and just changed things anyway? I am not convinced. We are with each other so far. Special effects and character backgrounds don't matter when you're talking about stress-testing the game mechanics. The best technique for seeing if something is balanced is to try and push it to the breaking point. "What happens if I do this?" 4th ed survived that much better than 6th does. You don't have to worry about munchkins abusing End Reserve. They saw the problem immediately and discarded it as an option. The only people who will take it are those who don't realize the cost problems. The players who are least aware of point efficiency are the ones who will pick the sub-optimal power sets. All of that is true. Charges and Increased Endurance are not the same limitation. The point of the comparison is that they are generally related to one another. But yes, one or the other will be more or less limiting in different circumstances. And of course, Increased End + End Reserve is still a bit more expensive. My point wasn't to say that people should be buying Increased Endurance and an End Reserve. I'm not upset that my favorite character is now unusable. I'm saying that is why it was costed that way to begin with. My point is that many of the changes that were made to 6th are seemingly arbitrary. You agree that they botched the costing of this power -- you just don't think it's an important issue. I think that problem has been repeated with almost every change they made.

Let's say we're designing an RPG. Everything will be balanced with points. As long as everything costs points, it should theoretically be possible to balance it. But what happens when not everything costs points anymore? How are we (as game designers) supposed to know what will be valuable in the abstract? How are we supposed to know what GMs will make available to players for free, when it's supposed to be for all genres? We can't know the answer. So we say "man, Strength is really good. It lets you hit people hard, and do damage. And it lets you lift objects, and it adds to something called 'figured characteristics'. As we've got it designed now, Strength might even be too good. It should probably be more expensive. Or maybe we should just get rid of these figured characteristic things." And if you're judging its value in a game where everything is paid for with points, you might be able to get pretty darn close to its real value. But... when equipment becomes free, that all goes out the window. Bob and John are playing in a gritty police drama game. Both want tough characters. Bob buys +10 Strength for his character, giving him a 20. He's a big, burly Sylvester Stallone looking cop. He can punch for 4D6, which is really good. His primary method of dealing with crooks will be punching them, and he's paying points to be able to do that effectively. John wants to play a Mel Gibson from Lethal Weapon type. He's not that big, but he buys +5 OCV with his D6+1 RKA 9mm. He spends the same 10 points. His primary method of dealing with crooks will be shooting them. He gets his gun for free, so he spends points to be ultra accurate with it. Each character has a 4 DC attack as their primary option in combat. Assuming a base 11- chance to hit, Bob will have that base 11-. But John will have a 16- chance with his attack (which is just as strong). John will be much more effective than Bob, unless the GM goes out of his way to make Bob more effective. When that happens, it isn't the game system making them equal. It's the game master intentionally skewing things in Bob's favor.

Pfft. Last time I tried I could do it for like 1 point in 5th.

In my experience taking a recovery happens far more frequently than waking up from being unconscious. How frequently one happens versus the other will definitely affect how valuable you see it as being. It seems pretty clear that you're a fellow "gear head" when it comes to Hero, and that 6th edition relied on a lot of your point analysis. You are always around to chime in with why a change in the edition was made. I think the problem is that there wasn't a competing view of point analysis back when the game was being written. And I think a lot of the analysis was incomplete. Earlier you mentioned that the costs of combat skill levels (and thus skill levels in general) was based upon taking a Multipower with a slot for each possible use. Skill levels were priced accordingly. However, the real problem with this is that should only establish the upper limit of pricing. X should be no more expensive than Y, because you can build it that way too. But that doesn't mean that Y should be the cost. You have to look from different angles at other competing builds. Plus, at the end of the day, you also have to ask yourself "are people buying this power a lot". There's an economic analysis as well. And you also have to question if the normal character is going to be able to take advantage of the maximum flexibility that something offers. Will a character with +2 overall skill levels (now 12 points, then 10 points) really be adding to his OMCV, particularly if he doesn't have mental powers? Should it be priced for Captain Everypower? Regarding END, I haven't done the math on it, but I think you haven't looked at alternative builds. If the bonus for buying an End Reserve is that you've still got End when you wake up, it's probably more point efficient to buy extra Recovery with "only applies when recovering from unconscious" (which should be at least a -1, probably closer to a -2 given that post 12s are far more common than waking up in the middle of a fight). Let's say you were going to spend 25 points on your End Reserve (and remember you'd be buying up your Recovery anyway, to get back Stun), how is that better than buying up your normal End and then taking an extra +20 Recovery only when waking up? When you awaken, you'd have enough End to get you to the post 12.

Thanks for the kind words. Oh and I'm definitely a male. In ages past I spent a lot of time trying to break the system. I was basically king of the powergamers at our local store. GMs from other games would tell their players that they were prohibited from asking me to help build characters. But what I found was that 4th edition was really solidly put together. Primary characteristics were good, and Elemental Controls needed to be watched like a hawk, but the basic cost structure of everything was great. With 5th edition, a lot of potential abuses opened up. It got really easy to break the game really fast. 6th went over like a lead balloon at our store, and when I looked at it I just saw the problems of 5th compounded. Now, I don't have the free time that I did when I was in college, and I haven't really torn the system apart like I did with 4th and 5th edition. But I see things that used to work that have been changed significantly, and prices changed for no real reason. Regarding heroic games, a game master can balance them. But a game designer can't balance it when he doesn't know if you're going to be playing Call of Cthulhu or Car Wars. Changes to the game were made for presumably Fantasy Hero, but that's a genre specific thing. Balance it for that and you unbalance it for something else.

Don't worry, I had to delete like 8 different posts before I hit "submit" because I was getting too argumentative. It happens.

It isn't the fault of the game mechanics. It's the fault of the game designers for believing that one system can balance heroics without regard to setting. Some of the cost changes in 6th edition appear to be in response to complaints from people in heroic games. I think either Killer Shrike or Hugh Neilson mentioned earlier that the cost of old Strength was a bigger problem in heroics than superheroics. But even in heroics that's only going to apply in certain genres. In a superheroic game, basically everything costs points. Want to be strong? Points. Want to be able to fly? Points. Want to have a laser gun? Points. And since everything costs points, you can balance between everything. But in a heroic game, you get free equipment. Often that equipment negates the value of something you paid points for, or at least makes it less useful. The mistake of the game designers is in not recognizing that fact. Hero is a "build your own world" system. Remember that awesome Sylvester Stallone movie, Over the Top, where he plays the arm wrestling truck driver? Strength is a very important stat in Arm Wrestler Hero. Strength and TF: 18 Wheeler are basically the only things that matter in that game. But in Ghostbusters Hero, Strength is never used. You just need a 10 to lug that equipment around. Hero can be a universal system, but as soon as you get free equipment, the basic cost structure is thrown out the window. And there's nothing that can be done about it because the system is marketed as being able to do any genre. Strength is vitally important for Conan, not so much for Picard. As far as ridiculous guns and ammo, yeah I'm talking about stuff that is available to the players. As in, Bob the player went to the gun show last week and bought the ammo that he wants his character to use. And he's prepared to pull out charts of ballistic tests that show why this ammo has three times the muzzle velocity and so he thinks he should get +1/2 D6 damage.

I said in my first post on the mechanics that I think Steve Long went with a very different philosophy of game design than the original guys. And yes, a large part of what he did was in altering point costs for things that were roughly internally consistent with one another. He changed one without changing others, despite the fact that their costs were basically linked together. I think you're missing the point. The point is that under 4th and 5th, it doesn't give you much benefit. The cost breaks are roughly the same. Taking x3 Endurance on your powers and then fueling them with an Endurance Reserve, you might as well just buy Charges because it costs the same amount. That lengthy post I made shows the relationship in cost between the two limitations -- they are mirrors of one another. But 6th edition changes the cost of one without touching the other. Endurance Reserve sucks now. It's far inferior to Charges. My point is that it didn't need to be nerfed -- before it was costed as close to correct as you can get. There's no mechanical reason to take it now -- it's seriously overcosted in 6th.

In 6th edition, End Reserve is actually more expensive than regular Endurance. No doubt somebody made the "you don't lose it when you go unconscious" argument. And the Recovery you buy for the End Reserve is a bit cheaper, but it's far more limited (you can't take a recovery with it, and it doesn't give you back any Stun). End Reserve is basically a terrible power now. You pay more to get something worse. Because remember, you're going to want a good Recovery anyway, to get back Stun. You're buying the same powers twice, one of them a more limited, more expensive version. And it completely loses its cost relationship with Charges and Increased Endurance.

On Endurance Reserves, Charges, and Increased Endurance These game mechanics, up until 6th edition, were related to one another. This is what I mean when I said that there was a certain game design philosophy that 6th edition wandered away from. I don't think anybody understood that these mechanics were connected before they went to change them, and that's bad. So let's take a look at how this relationship worked in 4th and 5th edition. A 10D6 Energy Blast is 50 points. It uses 5 Endurance, which you get back when you take a recovery or on post-12. The game presumes that you generally have enough Endurance to use your powers in a normal fashion. This is the default state of being assumed by the game. From there, we can make modifications. A 10D6 Energy Blast with 4 charges is only 25 points. You can only use the power 4 times, so it's more limited than what you have above. There's no juggling Endurance costs and recoveries, but you only get 4 shots. A 10D6 Energy Blast with 1 charge is only 17 points. It's even cheaper, but it's far more limited. So hey, maybe you think "I want to save points, but I don't want to be limited as much. I'll take increased endurance, but I'll use an End Reserve to cancel it out!" Good thinking. It's exactly what I thought when I first started playing. So let's look at what you get. A 10D6 Energy Blast with x3 Endurance is only 25 points. Using that on your normal Endurance is a real limitation. It throws your whole End balancing act out of whack. The only way to really get ahead with it is to funnel it through an End Reserve. But to even get "4 charges" worth, you need an End Reserve with 60 End. That's a minimum of 6 points, and that's with no Recovery. A 10D6 Energy Blast with x5 Endurance is 17 points, but to get 4 charges worth, you need an End Reserve with 100 End. That's a minimum of 10 points. We still aren't getting ahead of the Charges limitation. If you take a x10 Endurance limitation (a whopping -4), you're at 10 points real cost for your Energy Blast. But now you need 50 Endurance in your End Reserve to even use it once. That's 5 points without buying any Recovery. So with a minimum of 1 Recovery, you've saved a massive 1 point over just buying it with Charges (though theoretically, 50 Turns from now you can use it again). In practice, it's not a point saver. In every case, Charges give you a similar level of point discount than Increased End + End Reserve. Charges almost always comes out slightly ahead. It's supposed to work that way -- these two cost structures are tied to one another. End Reserve lets you very slowly recharge but costs slightly more points. Or at least, these two were connected until 6th edition.

Keeping your END when you wake up is incredibly situational. You're basically only talking about people who are knocked to negative single digits, who manage to wake up while still in combat. Yes, it happens, but it's rare. But what you haven't taken into account is that with an END Reserve, you give something else up as well. You can't take a recovery to get more END back. It only comes back at the per-turn rate. And I take recoveries far more often than I get knocked out and then wake back up still in the same fight.

...? Not sure if serious...

Deadly Blow is one of those powers that operates in a very specific genre, where certain campaign rules are likely to be in effect. Therefore it's hard to price appropriately. In a heroic game, I can see it being very effective (and even cheap for what you get). In a superheroic game it's better to just buy more Killing Attack. It's probably cheaper to do it with Aid, too. This goes back to my earlier argument that the points system doesn't do a good job of balancing heroic characters, because the game designer won't know what sort of equipment your players will be getting for free. Yeah, Deadly Blow can be great, but why pay points for it if somebody else can dig through a weapons chart and find a bigger gun, or some special ammo? Years of gaming with firearms enthusiasts have led to me dreading those conversations.

Advantages: Pg 106, there was no need to separate Hardened into two Advantages. Nothing was gained here, it only complicated matters. It also goes against the basic principle that defenses should be cheaper than offenses. Pg 107, Increased Maximum Effect (and Cumulative) is one of the biggest holes in 6th. That's about as far as I'm gonna go through. I think the rest of it is mostly the same. Everything I've pointed out is a pretty big mistake, as far as I'm concerned. This is without even getting into issues like Comeliness, which is entirely a matter of personal preference. And it's without addressing the issues of figured characteristics, which is something that has spawned debates for the last 20 years. But everything I've listed so far is something that was done better in an earlier edition. Therefore, I must conclude that 6th edition is NOT mechanically the best version of the rules.

Continuing my Champions Complete stream of consciousness review: Powers --Pg 51, Aid going to 6 points per D6 gets a shoulder shrug. Aid only really gets broken when you start layering lots of Advantages on it. I don't think this is a bad change, it's just something I noticed. Almost going back to 4th ed's 5 pts per D6. --Pg 51, Barrier is absurdly cheap. You can trap people with cheap Body very easily. --Pg 57, I miss Desolid vs mental powers. --Pg 59, Suppress should have remained separate from Drain, for Active Point purposes. --Pg 61, the interaction between Endurance Reserve, END, Charges, and Increased END cost needs its own essay. Suffice it to say, it isn't priced right here. --Pg 70, Healing's 24 hour period is a D&Dism that shouldn't have been brought over to Hero. --Pg 82, Regeneration is made more expensive with no purpose. It's not like every character was taking the power before, it wasn't undercosted. With cheaper Body, the cost problem is even more pronounced. --Pg 85, Stretching has some non-game terminology applied to its rules. Proportionately altering your dimensions, becoming twice as thin? This doesn't actually do anything, and is a case of hardwiring in a special effect into the rules. --Pg 92, Mind/Body/Spirit distinctions in Transform is still stupid, particularly since there are no rules for what "Spirit" even means.

He did ask about how to build the character in 3rd edition. Edit: I see this as a response to the idea that you can't build certain effects in 3rd edition. It's a conceptual argument and not a pricing one.

That's why we put it in Slick's Elemental Control. The wall of modifiers is a bit of a problem, but I think it's 6ths overuse of it that causes the most eye strain. Somebody who has one power that works that way, and an explanatory paragraph, is not that big an issue.

Some of these changes started with 5th, and accelerated as they went to 6th. Hopefully later on I'll get to how it should have been done differently. Generally I'm of the opinion that the basic cost structure of the system comes from Characteristics and certain Powers (such as Energy Blast). Everything else is either derived from or related to those key components. Some secondary Powers (like Enhanced Perception) are priced a bit higher than they probably should be, and that has to do with the undervaluing of limitations that's been endemic to the system for quite some time. But as far as that goes, it is what it is.

Flipping through Champions Complete (I'm not gonna bother with the full set of Encyclopedia Heroicas), I'm struck by some pretty ridiculous pricing for different abilities. I'll skip over the arguments on characteristics. I'll just go stream of consciousness as I get to different parts of the book. --Pg 26, still no rhyme or reason for why autofire skills are priced the way they are. Rapid Autofire is the only one worth taking. --Pg 27, higher tier combat skill levels have been increased in cost for no reason. 2 pt and 3 pt levels have a problem they didn't before, if purchased for a weapon they apply to all maneuvers (+1 OCV with Cap's shield is 2 pts, and gives bonuses to block, strike, disarm, trip, ranged strike, etc). --Pg 31, do we really need to take up space with the Language Similarity Tree? Really? Does anyone ever use that? (admittedly not a 6th edition only complaint) --Pg 34, upper tier skill level costs are probably too high. --Pg 35, two weapon fighting and rapid attack do similar things, should probably be combined, BUT this brings up other problems I'll address later (they break the Speed dynamic). --Pg 36, the costs for Contacts are just way too high. --Pg 39, Combat Sense is way overpriced. Danger Sense too. --Pg 40, Deadly Blow is WAAAY overpriced. Resistance probably needs costs adjusted if you halve the cost of Ego. --Pg 41, Speed Reading should return to 4th ed pricing, or cheaper. Basic its cost around an Enhanced Sense build isn't useful or needed. Striking Appearance is just limited Presence. Weapon Master is derptasticly overpriced. Going to eat breakfast now. I'll be back.