Nucleon

Maybe Nucleon Will just Alter his Moleculo-Cosmic structure as to be impervious to your Raging Fist of Flame, Starlord.

I think that will be in order indeed; Priorities are: 1) Protect the innocents. If you're heroes, that is 2) Stop the agents. Goes well with 1) 3) Get Dr. D, alive. Maybe is is detaining secrets about his master plan, a bomb or something (real reason is that way he can come back again ). So the best thing to do seems a Presence attack on the troops at a key moment. You've got to get their attention. If you got something as a Red White and Blue hero or an Immortal, you should get them to disapear through the cracks with the presence modifiers. Make them beleive he is dead, so the second-in command would take control, while Destroyer allies with the group to bring down his own organisation.

Re: USPD Errmmh, what is USPD, Rayoman?

Rich, imaginative thread, mortals. Impressive, very impressive... For a name suggestion; Nexus

Nucleon never had a problem with OGC characters. He had more problems with OGP (Off-Genre Players). I a gaming group, I once had 2 Jedi-like characters ("Phantom menace" just got out at the time), a grey-type alien E-Proj and a street-mentalist skater girl. Eventually one of the Jedis changed for a Rhino-like character. We looked like the DC multiverse before "Crisis". Each player potentially brings an ambience; as a GM, my job is the see which one of these ambiance "wins". If they're all goofs, that's no problem; Champion works well in a goofy way. If only one of them is, say, a tragedian among goofs, he might tire after a few sessions. My world setting's got lots of parallel universes and parallel timelines where the hero can come from, or live. I don't always like it, but if the player can come up with a reasonable (or more precisely a relative) reason for being there, it should work out. Peer player pressure is a great deterent. I would recommand that GM use it well. The group's size may also be a problem. If a OGC character with intricate background steps in in a large group, chances are he will stay a curios for most of the campaign.

These were fine exemples. Champion is but a game, and some fantasy is to being accepted if we play at all. That's why we're here. l like my normals at 20. Maybe I'm an incurable romantic, but it works fine with the STR table, the running distance, etc. If you play in a setting that ressemble mine a bit, you are at about the 6th generation of heroes; Mutants, either born of these or otherwise abound; Science can do everything; Magic exists, as well as dimension-hopping beings. In this day and age, there are many, many ways to have powers other than being over-trained. I can play a "Cap" type character with a 30 DEX saying he was brought "beyond human capacity" by a super-serum, instead that "at peak human". Playing a "real" normal human is a challenge, and a beautifull one. My players that did it take special pride in this fact, just like Cap and Batman do. It's a great concept. I can't imagine a hero vaunting his simple and pure humanity while having scores of 29 in chars and a 6 SPD.

Really? Wow. Did each player had his schtick? That makes for a campaign in subtilities, I guess.

About the case by case basis; Yes, you must. this guy of yours got to have some Martial Arts that include a Block, and must be using the same medium in both applications. That's why M-Artists often have it easier than, say, E-Projs in this case. This is but my interpretation, of course.

An excellent, caustic post, Living Titan. Fortunately, Cap, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing and Ironfist rarely are in the same playing group. Anyway, characteristics of personnage "genres" tend to ressemble at comparable lvls too. The true difference is in the powers and habilities. (I loved that one about D&D too...)

Well Gary, it's obvious that each one of us stands by his gun. I doubt I will influence you, as I doubt you will influence me. We're both content with the Status Quo, let's leave it at that. You can critique my character, of course (you already did that with the blueprint I posted before), but I won't respond to defend or justify it, even if I find the critique interesting. I guess we will have to agree on one thing about Cap; We Disagree. Nucleon can live with that.

That's an interesting point of view, but I prefer mine. As I said, you can find rules to do your thing.

Okay, this is still about Cap, but gary posted these before I posted my Cap here, so I Nucleon should respond politely. I think even your Cap should have 5-pts CSLs, or any other CSL for that matter. They must exists for some reason. Don't be sorry, its alright. Check on page 265, top of the page; I can use these lvls to deflect, as long as they are put in OCV. No FAQ need here. I doubt your guy in the first exemple also blocks a fist with the same Warp Field. But he may be, you know, if he bought some M-Arts That include a block) "usable w. Warp Field". The person who catches the projectile is closer in this way to my Cap; I would allow it in his case.

I really hate to do that, but I put this as a mean to get off Cap's case. Here is a ±250 Cap, fresh out of the lab and equiped with a round, mysterious shield (prior to that, during training, he had the "other shield" and a pistol). It looks terrible I know, but you get the idea. Cost Char Value 10 STR 20 30 DEX 20 20 CON 20 12 BODY 16 8 INT 18 20 EGO 20 10 PRE 20 3 COM 16 4 PD 8 0 ED 4 10 SPD 4 0 REC 8 0 END 40 0 STUN 36 Cost Powers and Stuff 10,5 Armor 7 PD/ED, 14- act, OIF scale shirt 8 Running +4" (10" total) 17 L-Support; E-Breathe, Safe in int, Heat/Cold/Rads, Immune to all E. Diseases 20 Shield Multipower 40 pts, OAF Shield U2 Missile Deflection, All R. Attacks, Us.at Range, OAF U1,7 E-Blast 8d6 vs PD, Lim. Range, OAF U1,9 HTH Attack +3d6 (7d6 tot), all AP, ½ END HTH, OAF U1,9 Armor 10 PD/ED, Hardened OAF 13 Generic M-Arts, us/w. Shield; Martial Block, Dodge and Strike 9 CSL; +3 w. Generic M-Arts 8 CSL; +2 w. All Combat, OAF shield 3 1 Level w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing, related by athletism. (at 14-) 27 Skills; 7 skills at 13-, plus Ps; Illustrator at 14- Eventually, Cap will evoluate into what we know him for. Taking 550 pts as an objective, Cap would gain; 86 STR, DEX & CON 23, PD & ED 10, SPD 5, END & STUN 50. All bought at NCM cost, and expensive as hell. Its the concept here, fellas. 15,8 A +20 boost on the shield Multipower, described as mastery over its possibilities. It would translate as; -Reflection possibilities, -AP on the E-Blast, -10d6 AP total HTH, -7" of Kb Resistance linked to the Armor slot, plus a new slot; 50% Dam Red vs P- and D-dam, all resistant. 8 Completing the generic M-Arts w. Offensive Strike and Throw, taken relatively early. 10 10 pts worth of Mental Defense, described as Sense of Duty. 5 5 pts worth of Lack of Weaknesses. 21 +7 CSLs with Generic M-arts (10 total) 25 +5 CSLs with Shield Multipower 20 +2 Overall Levels 8 +2 CSLs with all Combat, OAF shield, described as Shield Mastery too. (4 total) 6 4 PSL with the E-Blast (for that bouncing off effect) 3 Another Level with A, B, C. (athletism) 32 A luxury; 2 CSLs w. All combat, usable at range on 8 others (only), Incantations. A team with Cap becomes better (Or should he just Aid DEX...) 60 Exhaustive Skills and Perks, including Defense Manoeuver II. Easily a 50 more (for a total of 600 pts) if such things as contacts, motorbike and Avenger Perks are considered This is in no superagile or superstrong mutant but a tactician and defense expert, who should hold his own against any form of threat. A top normal in a world of superheroes, a relic. He is by no way an invincible character, simply because Cap is not. But he is no pushover, as you can see. I now know that I maybe of the minority here who thinks normals do have a place in a Super world. Well that's allright. The whole point of this exercise is to prove that high DEX is not the only way. I shall not talk of Cap against in this thread. (And Gary, I know you disagree, but please indulge me with that wish.)

Let it be known here that Nucleon comes here to discuss seriously about lighter stuff, or discuss lightly about serious stuff. Not for a minute does He takes himself too seriously, for He often writes about sterner stuff on other boards under His secret guise. Then he comes here to relax a bit while talking about His favorite Hobby. And even thought He is haughty, never will he condescend to the level you displayed in that former post of yours. If you disagree, try to be constructive and open about it. If you can't, I suggest you to go somewhere quieter where dissidence will be more sparse. You'll feel better. Yes, you were meaningful up to there. And Gary is 1-1-1 about the rules so far, even thought "relentless" about the rules would be more apt. "Starlord" is so much more serious than "Nucleon" for that matter. How would you feel if you were accused of not being serious by someone named "Toto the Clown", eh? Lastly, English is not Nucleon's first language. So have a care, mortal.

Interesting. Let's say it qualifies. Here is how I see it. 6270 lbs is 2850 kg. It takes a STR of 32-33 to move that. Now, is it believable that Paul Anderson "pushed" (as per the HERO rules) to do that? Is that acceptable? That would give him a 22-23 STR. The strongest man in the world. That seems okay for Cap. What do you think?

The 4 CSLs with the Shield (if you remember the character I posted) are the 5 pts-type, Gary. They are for use with the Shield Multipower. Which makes your point moot. You seem all numbers and no spirit, Milenial Master. Once again, not a GM trait. That's the impression that Nucleon gets. Everybody can find rules and counter-rules that suits his/her current argument. In these case, common sense must rule. If the fact that Blocking and Deflecting does not seem the same move for you for exemple, you should take some distance from the book, and try to make the part of things. Some times the official rules apply, sometime the optional ones are preferable, all in the same campaign. Comes a time where the book must stop thinking for you.

Quite constructive Starlord. Rather than continuing our discussion, you're being an exellent cheerleader. Nucleon is not impressed.

Well, okay; you're half right. Versus ranged combat, if I can't use M-Strike CSL in DCV, I still can use the manoeuver's defense bonus, plus the shield's CSLs if I use the HTH. That's still a 14 DCV, 18 OCV, as I have stated some posts before. I like those 3-pts levels, but that's not all I got. And the Martial Dodge affects all attacks, so I can put everything in DCV when I'm doing it. And if I Block/Deflect, I can use all those CSLs (see page 265), because they're in OCV. (Yeah, the defense rules of those 2 and 3-pts CSLs do surprise me, because they're quite easily bypassed, like buying 5 pts CSL with ½ worth of limitations, but I grant you your point, Milenial Master.) I guess I won't play in the "Champion Universe" which title means exactly that. Normal humans that can lift 3 520 lbs (14 080 when pushing) off the ground are too much for me. People are quite tough out there. They do not need superheroes, in my humble opinion. But you know what? One man's meat is another one's poison, mortal.

At the same amounts of points, why not? If that Nighthawk of your is well built... With a difference of 100-200 pts, I highly doubt it. Well, I hope you're still free to ignore this thread, Living Titan.

Hey, all those pts not invested in DEX or SPD did went somewhere, don't you think? Or do you simply think "speedsters" are above all that could be created as characters? I think you assume too much. Among other things you assume that Cap's player will play like an ass. If a reasonably intelligent player is playing vs a fast brick surrounded by throwable junk and with no form of cover to impede on his LOS, he will eliminate direct confrontation as an option, don't you think? However shocking that may seems, it is quite possible that some other character beats Cap, you know...

I'm not bound by "genres", I'm bound by concept. There are few things as generic "Bricks" in my campaignd. I've got Speedster Bricks, Mentalist Martial Artists, Animalists E-projs, Scientific Bricks, Shifting M-Artists, M-Artists E-Proj, and many, many more. I don't tell a player "Look. Your character's obviously a brick. 30 Dex is too high. Please bring that down to 23 max.", but rather "How come your DEX is 30 if you didn't mention he was super agile, nor came with a reasonable science-fantasy cause. Work on that." Often, the player decide that his hero is mutant or altered. I have no problems with that. This one plays a tiger shifting character? A DEX of 35 may be of order, as well as a high SPD. Another wants to play "a normal guy" with lots of training and pride of his human nature? Yeah, why not. Is prof Charles Xavier an amazing athlete?

That's two things that you have yet to convince me of. Well, if that's tiring, stop. Not counting the fact that you're wrong too. If I use Martial Strike, I got the +2 DCV vs all personal, physical attacks, as well as any CSLs I have put there too. I challenge you to prove the contrary, or else just let it go, man. It's tiring for me too. It is a discussion about how in concept do you stay if you give your characters ridiculous amounts of DEX, and how to get exactly what you need to obtain the same effectiveness or more. Cap was merely an exemple. I would make him as I have said, not more even if that was more efficient, which is not the case. While you're there, why don't you give your "Cap" a 60 STR, Absorption, regeneration, mental powers and desolidification as well? You'll be much more effective. We could call him the Munchkin-Earth Cap.

The champions of knockback are DC, where characters easily get punched up to the moon. Yet, in the first arc of the current JLA title, Green Lantern puts a white Martian down with a 60-ton weight. That' between 55-60 STR. Truth is, modern science has yet to set laws for Knockback Effect After A Punch. Just occured to me. Could you buy Megascale on STR for the means of throwing things and (ouch) knockback? Now that would be Munchkin-Earth for sure.

Once again, your loss. Whatever. If any of the agents rolls triple snake eyes, they hit my Cap, your Cap, or even a 180 DEX "Cap" for that matter. Still I don't see the relevance. Why would I put everything in OCV vs these anyway? Are they that hard to hit? I may even not see the need to Dodge or Block against these. Martial Strike should do the trick, thank you very much. Big STR scores in HERO are, as it is, more common than high DEX. While STRs of 60, 70 and 80 are legion, high DEXs are often half of that. I know that CSLs are more my schtick if I want to build a trained fighter and tactician, and at NCM, this extra DEX comes expensive. I figure an active valour of 10 (or 20 NCM) over NCM I could afford on a 450-500 pts character, but more would be a waste. That is a STR of 28, a DEX of 23, and a CON of 25. And a SPD of 5 max.

Yeah. A biker with Density Increase. (That's Nucleon, mortal.)