Nucleon

Long, pontitive post... Hear ye mortals. Many posts adressed to Him bore a semblence in nature. So Nucleon shall post them All Into One. (Nucleon Grunts). I doubt you ever been a GM, Gary (not that's an offense or something, being no GM is allright). I may be wrong... For one, you ignored the rule of additional Blocks, then you can't see over a simple (optional, yes) rule that makes plenty of sense in this case, and overall you seem impervious to the concept that a DEX 20-23, SPD 4-5 character is possible to play and enjoy, even in the big leagues. This last one is your loss There, there, I give you your point. No Deflect. So what. I can Martial Dodge, even vs ranged fire with those same 3-pts cheap CSLs. And I still hit you at the first occasion I got, still with those cheapos. SPD won't change squat in this fact. Sorry, I just will not go through the mechanics again. Time to move on. I agree with the essence of your post. I am able to stomach up to a 28 STR for Cap. Then he would be able to do that up to 4-6", per the STR table. As for perspective, our playing groupe always did include, at one time or another, a normal human with NCMs. Sometimes it's a Punisher-type, or a Martial Artist, or a tech-user of some kind. They did kicked butts. Another poster near the start of this thread said that he always keeps sending agents and such mundanes at his heroes for them to keep this perspective in mind. I think that's a great idea. But again, if a mundane human can't make it in your campaign, you may have a problem. 1000 lbs? That's 450 kg. STR 21. I think what's making Cap great is that he is not only able to do such a feat of STR, but as you say he is also at that peak in DEX, and CON, etc. That's something. Usually, when you're the strongest man on earth, you're not the most agile at the same time. We might agree. Well, you've got to agree on some bases. Champion is but a game. Let's say Roy Jones Jr. has Autofire! I never had to use them, save for some guys in Classic Ennemies, most of them re-worked. Same amount of point (not lowered at all), often more specislised as to not let, say, Sunburst impede on Firewing's schtick. Even in the published adventures, the few times I used them, I used to put my campaign's people in place instead of the published NPCs therein. And now that's you've told me that the normals in it reach 30 on a regular basis without NCMs, I'm not sure I will change my habits...

CSLs, and a humble enough DEX so he can cancel almost immediatly after an attck.. NCMs are a disavantage in my campaign. NOT a rule. How would I roleplay someone who's proud of his humanity and is looked by the masses as "just a man, like one of us" if I buy a SPD 6 like if it was a new shirt? Here is an interesting bit. In Avenger no 170 (The Korvak Saga, where Cap's no slouch), Cap is training, and is sweating lifting a 500 lbs barbel bar. While doing so, he tells Beast "...I don't have any special powers like the rest of you". 500 lbs is roughly 227 kg. It takes a STR of 15 to lift 200 kg, and 18 to lift 300 kg. The Guiness book of world records says that 302.5 kg is the heaviest mass lifted off the ground by a man. Doesn't Cap supposed to be the pinacle of human performance? Can he lift 1200 kg (STR 28), or even 600 kg (STR 23)? Same thing for DEX or SPD for that matter. I think you guys have somewhat lost perspective. It seems to me like your heroes belong more to the 90s Image stuff, drawn by Liefield. They could vanquish these icons of yours such as Cap on any given day. But would they sell? Without concept, no, of course. Abdicate, mortals!

A DEX 20-23 Cap with superhuman training is plenty enough to take on Hydra agents. Works well with sweep. Even considering how rough a time you got with block/Deflect, Martial Dodge can be used against ranged attacks. But I wouldn't have too if I'd take on this Hydra horde with Cap. A DCV 15-16 and OCV 14-15 should be plenty enough. (As long, of course, as those Hydra agents are not STR 30, DEX 27 and SPD 6 "normals".)

I wouldn't say that Champion's published characters are common ground for relativity. NCMs and the STR table are.

Re: Re: Ah well. Here again. Oh please. This is no house rule, but optional rule. You yourself have bring the FAQ answer about it a few post back. Plus, it makes plenty of senses. Obviously, you're no Avenger reader. In Ultimates (I loathe that "parallel universe") you're maybe right about him, but in the regular series, Cap's no big gun; he is a tactician.

Why didn't I put Cap at DEX 30 and SPD 6? BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give Nucleon a stroke! I Really don't care about who the Champion-U characters are supposed to be. If I ever use them, I'll probably alter them if they're not of my liking, but chances are I'll make my own. There's no "Cap" in my campaign, but there are lots of dex 6-11, SPD 3-4 that my players have painfully learned to loathe and fear. Don't you have no normals in your games? If there was such a thing as Cap, he would start at 250 with nearly all-top NCM (STR-DEX-CON 20, SPD 4) and he would maybe upgrade to a 28 STR, 23 DEX, 25 CON and SPD 5, all paid double over NCM, for ± 450-500 pts overall over the years. There. And you know what? He would kick arse.

Ah well. Here again. Blocking and Deflecting with the shield in the same action makes plenty of sense to me. Obviously not for you, eh? If you aborted twice per turn in a group setting like you said, and succeed, you just saved your teamates 2 potentatially lethal attacks. A relatively low DEX of 20 also alloys you to cancel soon after you've attacked. And when you do attack, you hit, and often you hurt. That's team effectiveness enough for me. A 4 SPD Cap is no disgrace. Nor is Batman.

If one thing Nucleon is gonna say is true, you truly are pugnacious, Milenial Master Gary. Nucleon Tips His Cosmic Crown to you. Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see. Truth is, rarely these icons are as optimized as you generic Champion characters. That's what makes their charm. What I want for Cap is combat effectiveness. I do not want it as a DEX by-product, I want it now. It's like coming home with golf bag, bird cage, and a bulldozer while saying "Wow, 50% off! Look at all the money I just saved!" when all you wanted was a hammer. Not only did you didn't need all those bells and whistles but you're also out of concept if you play a Batman-type, or a guy in power suit (I don't care what's been done before; this is pure rethoric). (Sight)A DEX augmented by 15 costs 45. Let's say you buy back the SPD and buy 3 to 5 CSLs with the currency saved, because you want to play a combat master. So you bought for max 10 CVs. Good. Or you can buy 9 to 15 CSLs, giving you a bonus CV of max 15. +50%. You're better in combat. So you're not as agile as if you could spit in your own arse; not as much proactive, DEX-skilled or even polyvalent, but you do kick-a-boot in what you do. Plus, you can choose to do more damage at the expense of some CVs. Good versus brick like foes, who are typically lower in CV (I wont open that door). That's not munchkinism, that's not exaggeration, you are simply playing a character who is more Trained than Naturaly Agile. You control more that way. You got decisions to make. The game gets more strategic (End of sight). In fact, high and a bit off DEX score I find useful when creating powerful ennemies to throw in versus the PCs, moreso if the later outnumbers the formers. That way they're fast, and have reasonable CVs to hit and be hit as well. Plus, they're more easy to manage, OCV/DVC speaking. Mmmmh. The Stars did take on a curious Conjoncture. Nucleon Has Too Long Spoken, mortals. He shall find Solace in your Indulgence.

So you would accept a 38 DEX Cap, but a 15 CSL Cap would sound unrealistic? An extra 15 of DEX costs 45 pts. 15 CSLs at 3 pts is 45 pts too. Why is that unrealistic? Maybe that's not me who have a problem with DEX, but rather you who have a beef with CSLs. Why super agile is accepted, while super trained isn't? Me I accept, and use both. I guess we'll have to agree we disagree.

And why victory should not go to the strongest one, or the one with the best defenses, or, like in this case, to the better fighter? If you can't touch me while I dodge or block, and I touch you everytime I get to act, what good use is a SPD 6 or 12 for that matter? To spend END, recover and flee? Oh, and forgot the head shot. At -8 OCV, you will need all your small change to hit me. An area-effect is what you need right now. From the FAQ: The new Ultimate Martial Artist has, on page 142-43, some optional rules for Martial Block and Missile Deflection. And, of course, the GM could always rule in contradiction to the statement above if he felt that Block and Missile Deflection should be “extensions†of each other. That might be perfectly appropriate for some campaigns. Well, I must sound subjective here, but it seems logical to me that in this very case, it is the same action; In both cases the shield is used in a defensive manner to block/deflect incoming attacks in one single movement. If I, as a GM, would not let it to the player who attempt it, chances are the other players will sceam bloody murder. I do not force low or high DEX. The concept does it. As a GM I'm only there during creation to see that the concept wins. In this case, a man at the peak of human performance with lots of training and combat experience. 3-pts CSLs and Skill lvls with 3-related skills are a cheaper way to get there faster and for cheaper. Sure, a high DEX would make Cap good at lockpicking, but is that really what you wanted? And you still did not write a word about the extra DC I can get with CSLs. At 20-25 STR, this is of some importance.

That was very clear. Thanks, guys.

Re: Re: About Dodge... So, if I have say 5 CSLs with Martial Dodge and a DEX 24, do I get DCV 18 against all the attacks directed at me? Or just 18 for the first, and 13 for all the rest?

Why is 12-20 levels unrealistic extreme? It is surhuman training, of course, but is it a more unrealistic extreme than a 38 DEX? For Cap? (No offense Gary; I know you don't think it neither.) NCMs (as a Disavantage)are quite okay for most power armor users and many martial artists, both in comics and actual game. Nothing extreme there, in my so humble opinion. I got nothing versus high DEX, or STR, or COM for that matter. If one of my player has some animalist concept or something, a DEX of 27-38 might be of order. If he is a mundane power-armor operator, a 23 DEX seems, and must be, far-fetched. No matter what's been done before. It is a question of relativity.

...If I dodge, does my +3 DCV is valid against ALL attacks directed at me until my next phase? Just to be sure...

My Cap would be even more effective with his characteristics blocked at 20. I could buy something like 24 CSL instead of 12 that way. A bit much, I agree but I'm sure you got the point. They were bought at NCM cost for the beauty of the character, and still is at par with yours. The more human he is, the better are his chances Not so fast. If I block with an OCV of 26, I can Block 7 times before my OCV goes down to your DCV of 13. (Imagine If I reflected shots). Plus, versus slow, tough opponents, I can get 5 DC more with those CSL. Don't forget that. Nah-ha; Defensive strike are not part of Generic (or Comic-book) martial arts. You should have take less DEX and more CSLs... Ninja Hero stated that Block and Missile Deflection are roughly the same action. You get to use the bonuses you got with block when you deflect. I regularly beat down opponents with higher DEX and SPD. There are so much ways to do it. My Cap is not going down. He is a better fighter, while yours is more talented. Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well. Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

Gary, please take this link to your post's response In the DEX race thread More ale for Thor for His victory over The Man Of Steel!

Hey, that's true, Millenial Master. That would give me only an extra +2 instead of the +6 that I added up. I could just say that Cap' serum has busted these NCM limits for free and still keep them at their present, reasonable level and gain +9 CSLs...But I won't. However, the point here being largely DEX vs CSL or "how could someone with a normal DEX can mop the floor with Supers", I'm sure you'll understand what I mean. Aaah, but Sacrfice throw is no part of Generic M-Arts. We agreed that our charaters would be the same exept for the huge DEX difference and SPD did we? That and the fact that mine has NCMs. I can and I will! See "Block" on page 255; A character who has successfully Blocked one attack can Block additional attacks made against him. He may take these additional attempts to Block in the same phase or later segments before his next phase (this does not count as aborting to block; its just an extension of the initial Block). Each additional roll is made at a cumulative -2 penality. I will concede you this, Millenial Master; Your Cap sure is more polyvalent with this extra DEX and SPD, but there, in a fight, that version sure has a hard time putting this simple Human down, a bit like if it was Capitain America you were facing. (EDIT; this is a continuation of the discussion engaged here)

There, there. That's one of 'em one-shot exaggerations that plagues the industry. That scene was so bad actually, I dropped off. It's like controlling an entire house when you're the Master Of Chinaware thanks to the presence of a drekker set in it. That was Royale Cheese Camembert Du Pays Terrible.

-Rewind- At seg2, yours attack at max w. (13+4+5= )22 OCV. Mine cancels his 3 and blocks with OCV (8+4+16+2=) 30. I have exellent chances. I also blocks your attack at 4 with the same seg3 block OCV (30-2=) 28. I have very good chance. I win the Initiative at seg6. There, I put everything into OCV, resulting in (8+4+16=) 28. You cancel to dodge (13+5+5=)DCV 23, or block (13+4+5+2=)DCV/OCV 24. Things are looking good for my "Cap", I fear. 15- I hit. Have I missed something? (Edit; this is an exchange I adore, but I really do feel it's in the wrong thread; To those interested, please continue it in the "Are you engaged in the DEX race?" thread. Thanks.)

Mmh. Nucleon is supposed to be faultless, mortal. I paid 48 points for my Cap's DEX of 23, plus 7 for its SPD of 4. Yours was 84 pts for DEX 38, plus 12 for SPD 6. (84+12)-(48+7) = 41 I do know mine more or less equals 400. So you think the higher SPD always wins, mmmh?

That was a fast shot. Like I say, a character's only good the fourth or fifth time you make it. The shield should be OIF as you say (althought it does happen that Cap loses it on a fairly common basis), and he should also have hardening on his shield, overall Skill lvls, CSLs usable with 8 others and many more. To fix him at 400 is a bit low; I would be more comfortable with 450-475. Go Thor!

I do know perfectly well that the fact to stick to NCW cost me a lot of points. At 38 DEX, are you sure this is Cap? Yours actually costs 41 more pts, of which you deduct 24 pts. With the extra 17 pts, I buy almost 6 other CSLs w. M-Arts, being that much over yours, plus gaining the posibility of doing almost 4 DC more damage on bigger foes that way. As for the superior SPD, that's mot much of an advantage if mine cancels or blocks. Chances are you won't touch me. Now, to be honest, yours will be a better pilot, will be better at diving for cover etc and will constantly have the Initiative, exept if I bloked you at your actions 4 and 10, in which case I will strike first on 6 and 12. Which reinforce my point. With NCM concept, this guy still can beat yours 2/3. He is in the same league as your superagile one. Just a Man.

It has indeed. Well, I hate doing that, but here is a quick sketch of Cap at 400 pts, to show what I mean. This is rough stuff, but you get the idea; Characteristics, 178 pts; Those above NCMs are bought at double cost: STR, DEX and CON at 23, EGO and PRE at 20, BODY and INT at 18, COM at 16. PD/ED 10, SPD 4, END 46, STUN 45 Powers, 73.8 pts: Running +4", 5 pts Lack of Weaknesses, LS Ext. Breathing, 2x lifespan, Res. all diseases, safe in Heat/Cold/rads and 10 pts Mental Defense. 7/7 Armor (14- act independant OIF chain mail), and a 40 pts Shield Multipower, all OAF, which includes the following ultras; -All ranged missile deflection, usable at range -E-Blast vs PD 6d6 Indirect -A total of 8d6 HTH attack, all Armor-Piercing, half-END -13 PD/ED Armor -Dam Reduction 50% vs P- and E-Dam. -HKA 2d6 total, Half-END (shield edge). Skills and others, 145 pts Generic M-Arts, usable with Shield, 4 PSLs with Shield, 4 CSLs with Shield Multipower, 10 CSLs w Generic M-Arts, 3 skill lvls w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing and about 60 pts of skills, talents and perks, a bit exhaustive to post here. Here is a guy that can block with a DCV of up to 20-24, and then strike with an OCV of 24, and a potential damage of 20 DC. His Acrobatics is at 17-, as is Breakfall. And he is only human. What a hero. Eat your heart out you 38-DEX jumping monkeys out there. Ooof. Now back to Thor vs Supes... ...Thor wins!

Re: while we're talking about them... Uncommon indeed. A friend of mine created Geothermic-powered Aquaflash back in 1979 (pre-HERO) as his personal hero, a mix between Aquaman and the Flash. While not being a "Prince of Atlantis", Aquaflash (a big figure in my Universe) is indeed the adopted heir of the Tird House of Aquadoma and a link between Aqualians and Humans. (so okay, he is a "Prince of Atlantis" after all...)

Re: The NCM Debate So, is there a NCM Disavantage in your campaign, and if there is, what does it worth? I think that playing a HERO campaing with "Normal" to "Hero" character types helps putting things back in perspective. (Grumble) I know that I must be starting to sound like some argumentative orthodox here, but Cap does not need a surhuman DEX. He could even do better without. In effect, he is surhuman, super-trained, that is. Here is a challenge. I can make, on equal pts, a Cap with NCM that will mop the floor with most 27-38 DEX "Caps" characters in martial combat 2 times out of 3, or bow down to my opponent's effectiveness for all to see. Huh?