Warp9

Re: Polishing The HERO System That is not a bad idea, but if I wanted linear stuff, I'd probably be playing GURPS. Very close, but not on the money. 5 points of flight would double your kinetic energy due to velocity and thus give you +1d6 on move through (as per the chart on page 293). Unfortunately 2 X KE is NOT equal to 2 X Velocity KE = 1/2mv^2 thus 2 X Velocity = 4 X KE So, assuming that we are doubling damage for every 5 points, for every 10 points you'll double your velocity and get + 2d6 (or 4 X Kinetic Energy). And fortunately the chart on page 293 already takes the "2 X velocity = 4 X KE" thing into account.

Re: Polishing The HERO System

Re: Polishing The HERO System Maybe because I want a character who can actually fly at Mach 3 in combat. Maybe because I want to be able to hit something at Mach 3 without doing enough damage to literally destroy the planet several times over. Currently a Mach 3 character with SPD 4 would do over 300d6 on a move through using the default rules. And I don't think that asking for a combat velocity of Mach 3 is that extreme for a game that allows characters to throw around air-craft carriors for 100 points.

Re: Polishing The HERO System My suggestion: get rid of all the linear stuff. Everything should follow the same consistent exponential curve. For example, combat flight should no longer be 2 points for 1 hex, instead it should be X points to double.

Re: Polishing The HERO System While I agree with much of what you've just said, some of it is confusing to me. Are we discussing flexibility or power-levels? I thought we were looking at different power levels, and looking at what scale might be best for Hero. I'd agree that comic-books feature a wide variety of power levels. But what about Sci-Fi like Star Trek? Star Trek characters include normal humans but also high-power entities like Q. Q seems to have almost infinite power, so I can't see how comic-books actually feature a larger range of power levels. If it is a question of flexibility, I agree that a universal system should be flexible. The super-hero genre is (at least as far as I understand it) more than just: vampires, mages, psis, cyborgs, and normal humans. Yes, it has those elements (in fact, it has elements from most other genres). But it also has some specific limitations (or genre rules) which are specific to super-hero style games. Or to put it in a different way, it is very possible to have super-human beings in a game with out having any sort of comic book feel to it. So a game can accomodate super-human entities, without having any other elements from a comic book genre. Side Note: I even started a thread focusing on genre and how it impacts rpgs (it also explores some of the specifics of the super-hero genre), I'd be interested to get your input on this topic. . . . http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312 But anyway, the point is that while I agree with the idea that a Universal System should cover vampires, mages, psis, cyborgs, and normal humans. I still don't see why it should be specifically linked to comic book style games, or a comic book style power curve. That is an interesting concept, but I do not agree. IMO a realism oriented system needs to be more consistent than one which in not concerned with realism. Unfortunately, trying to get realism by patching on a number of house rules often has the reverse effect. Your suggestion about buying extra-damage to simulate higher damage from STR in a realistic game is a good example of what I'm talking about. I would have a problem with that method, especially in a realistic game, because STR damage would then be based on a different scale than firearm damage. Which in turn would make the game less consistant and thus IMO less believable.

Re: Polishing The HERO System You'd still be buying 1 dc per 5 points. So 20 points of def would still work the same against 20 points of attack. Therefore the cost of defenses would not have to be adjusted. The difference would be in terms of the larger picture. A 30 STR would still do 6d6, but (in the larger picture) it would no longer be a super-human value. A 45 point 3d6 RKA would still follow the same rules, but it would be less than a .44 magnum in the new setup. You would need more points to build an Olympic Athelete or a .44 magnum, and you would need more points to defend agianst these things as well, so it would all balance out.

Re: Polishing The HERO System I don't normally play Champions, and I question the idea that the Hero system should be all about the super-hero genre, so I wouldn't mind seeing the system spread out the curve a bit. But at the same time, I don't think that changing the current set up is that big of a deal. Also, as I've pointed out previously, firearms follow a +1 dc per doubling of kinetic energy as well. The curve is not just about STR, the rest of the system also follows the same scale. So if the STR chart gets changed, then everything else should as well. If STR is X2 per 10 points, then it sould be +10 = X2 across the board. A .44 mag would go from 2d6 RKA to 3d6+1 RKA. An HMG would go from 3d6 RKA to 5d6+1 RKA.

Re: Polishing The HERO System Yeah, I think that you are pretty much on the money with that observation.

Re: Polishing The HERO System Given the nature of comic books, ANY hard numbers are bound to be contradicted at some point, by some comic. Events that happen in the comic books are probably more often based on what a given writer thinks would be exciting, rather than being based on a desire for internal consistancy. And probably many comic book writers are simply not very well informed about what a given object would weigh. Maybe because it did call itself the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. And maybe because it did try to put hard numbers to the abilities of various characters, which is very different from a normal comic book or mini-series.

Re: Polishing The HERO System I am not arguing that it is valid, the point is that Hyperion seems to think that it is valid.

Re: Polishing The HERO System As far as specifically being "reflective of comics" goes, I wonder how far a generic system should go to be reflective of a specific style. And comics do cover a very wide range, so what simulates one style of comic may not cover a different style all that well. I would not argue that the offical listings are all that valid, but some people seem to take them fairly literally.

Re: Polishing The HERO System I agree with you that a generic system should enable one to build a wide range of characters (alomst anything you can imagine). But to be fair, I don't believe that anybody has suggested changing to a linear system. The change to a different exponenital model would still allow Superman to be created relatively easily (compared to a linear system). If you were to double what a character can lift with every 10 points, a character who currently would be built with 125 STR would need 240 STR under the new system. 240 is quite a bit higher than 125 but at least it is still the same number of digits. A 125 STR Hero character would have an 80,000,000 STR in GURPS. (a literal translation to 3rd ed GURPS) Interestingly enough, I think that simulating the comics is what Hyperion has in mind. The problem is that, in the "offical listings" for the Marvel Universe (which Hyperion has mentioned), the strongest characters pretty much max out at 100 tons, but Hero allows characters to go far beyond this limit. Therefore, Hero does not work in the way that Hyperion expects. So he has rewritten the chart to place 100 tons lift at 100 STR (which if you are going by a chart, would probably the high end). Note: Since I can't read Hyperion's mind, I may be worng about his motivations, but I'd guess that I'm pretty close in this case.

Re: Kinetic-Kill Missile You are welcome. Glad to be of help

Re: Kinetic-Kill Missile I believe that you might be mistaken here Treb. As I understand what he is saying, the damage being done is based on Move-Through. Under the current rules, lowering the SPD will not impact damage for a move through. As I understand the rules, they are based on move per phase rather than move per segment or move per turn. A character with 30" flight will do (v/3) damage on a move through, which in this case is 10d6 + STR. The character can have a 1 SPD or a 12 SPD and the damage will still be the same. And if you are trying to simulate a specific given velocity (say 60 mph, which is approximately 90 ft/sec, or approximately 18" per second, or 216" per turn), lowering the SPD of the missile could actually increase the damage. This is because, if it had a lower SPD, the missile would have to have more inches of flight to reach the same velocity. In order for a 1 SPD char to get to 216" per turn he'd have to buy 216" of flight, and he'd do 72d6 + STR on a move through at 60 mph. In order for a 12 SPD char to get to 216" per turn he'd have to buy 18" of flight, and he'd do 6d6 + STR on a move through at 60 mph. So, if he wanted to keep the mach 1 rating and lower the SPD of the missile, it could actually increase the damage. However, the optional damage stuff, which I mentioned in my previous post, covers that stuff much better. In the new method all damage is based on move per turn rather than move per phase.

Re: Kinetic-Kill Missile Your main problem stems from one source. By default, velocity damage happens at a linear rate. Under the current default rules, a character could probably destroy a planet by doing a move through at relatively low speeds. However, I do have help for you. On page 292 of the main rules book there is a method of doing velocity damage which is exponential (of course, if you don't like the idea that damage happens at exponential rates, then you should be happy with the 45d6 result). Anyway the book describes the new method as "more realistic," and it is definitely the method I'd recommend. Under the new method, your projectile would have a Velocity Factor of 14 (at mach 1). Which would give it a value of 14d6 + STR for a move through. In order to represent the size of the missile, I'd just give it a low STR to match its size (which would impact it's move through damage) Based on weight, I'd set the missle's STR as follows : 50kg = STR +05 = +1d6 (Total of 15d6 on move through) 25kg = STR +00 = +0d6 (Total of 14d6 on move through) 12kg = STR -05 = -1d6 (Total of 13d6 on move through) 06kg = STR -10 = -2d6 (Total of 12d6 on move through) 03kg = STR -15 = -3d6 (Total of 11d6 on move through) 01kg = STR -20 = -4d6 (Total of 10d6 on move through) NOTE: I may be wrong about how negative STR impacts move through damage, but this set-up seems right to me.

Re: Polishing The HERO System I thought we were talking about changing the STR chart for Heroic style games (it'd probably stay the same for Champions). So if you change the chart for heroic games, are you going to change the way firearems work in heroic games too?

Re: Polishing The HERO System Yes, a normal person can lift 100kg. (Both in Hero and DC) No. 50 DC STR would be 48 points over a normal person. It would be 100kg X 2^48 or approximately 256 trillion times as much as a normal person. Which is also approximately 256 X 10^12 X 100kg = 25.6 X 10^15 kg Or 25.6 X 10^15 kg = 25.6 X 10^12 tons You can also look at it from a base of 0. Which is the stat where Hero and DC are exactly the same. (0 Hero STR = 0 DC STR = 25kg lift) 50 DC STR = 25kg X 2^50

Re: Polishing The HERO System It had both good and bad points. Hey I'm willing to discuss it. DC did acknowledge the fact that Batman had stats which were better than the best Olympic atheletes. They suggested that Batman had simply pushed himself to a level beyond the bounds of other people--the idea is supposed to be that even olympic atheletes are not truely at the limits of human potential. I guess that it depends on whether you are willing to buy into that point of view or not.

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Re: Polishing The HERO System DC Heroes the RPG by Mayfair games (which came out post-crisis) placed Superman at 50. But that is NOT Hero 50 STR, that is DC 50 STR. In DC an average person had a Str of 2, and every point over that doubled (not every 5 points like in Hero). You can get an exact str conversion DC to Hero by multiplying by 5. Thus, to covert Superman based on what he could lift in the DC game, his STR in Hero terms would be 250. According to that value, Agent X's estimate is too low. BTW Batman's STR was 5 in DC (which would be 25 in Hero terms). So that estimate was right on the money.

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