Brian Stanfield

I looked everywhere and only found paper copies. The one I got, in fact, was a little bit blurry on some pages because the register was a little bit off. I would love to have a clean digital copy, but alas, I don't think it exists.

Is there anything in the Lucha Libre book/pdf in the store?

Let us take teh beach scene from Saving Private Ryan, because it shows a lot of scenes from the point of the MG42 gunners wich gives you a lot of practical insight:

 

At 2:00 you can clearly see that they have free fire on the landing crafts. The tank traps are the only cover against those attackers. But you can also see that they only cover a very small part of the beach. Literally only the first few feet. By design of their positions, they have 0 ability to cover the beach right below them. They can not even cover that 1st puddle properly. Just moving foward the own bunker they were in, provided 100% cover to anyone too close to them.

The original adivce "do not be clustered, 5 guys are a opportunity, 1 guy is a waste of ammunition" is very important for survival here. Only in the landing craft themself, are they forefully grouped up.

 

This entire scene is about going far enough forward to be out of their line of fire for those guns. That dune they cover behind after that? Those MG's up there could not even fire down there.

 

Next scene then is about dealing with the MG's covering the path up the bunkers back enterance. Then killing everyone in the bunker.

As it gives a bit more "strategic" view, Company of Heroes Omaha scene might help too:

 

The close range weakness was exactly why they put in a shingle at that point. It did provide some cover for attackers. But without it, the attacker could have rushed easily out of line of fire of those upper defenders easily.

At 6:20, two other MG nests - based around sandbags - were the main issue. While the shingle gave some cover, it also gave them a opportunity to actually work.

 

The moment the wires line was broken, the enemy could actually move into grenade range of those first two sandbag MG nests. And grenades are "short range anti cover weapons". They player just ignored to tip to use them.

Bascially the defenders deseperatly tried to prevent 7:30. At that point the beachline in that segment had effectively failed. The enemy could move off the beach up to the trenches, without being under serious MG fire. Possibly without being under fire at all.

These are great resources! It gives me a lot to think about. How do you think it all plays out in terms of OCV/DCV modifiers?

I seem to recall a rule where dropping prone doubled range mods but can't find it in 6th.  All I could find is that in dropping prone, assuming your head if facing them and your feet area away, while your DCV drops to half, they get a -4/-8 to be hit.  (6e2pg 41-44).

This fits in with what I'm inclined to rule. I looked up your page reference, and it's a pretty broad range of stuff, although the CV modifiers chart is on p. 41. When you say -4/-8, are you looking at any rule in particular (range modifier, etc.), or are you generalizing from the overall feel of the rules?

when range mods kick in would be my 2 cents

I'm inclined to agree with you. It makes good intuitive sense, and while the range modifiers kick in at 9 meters, the DCV penalty is high enough that it would be foolish to go prone that close. At 9 meters it would make more sense to dive for cover because the shooter would only have a -1 OCV penalty, but at 33 meters the OCV penalty is high enough at -5 that in a heroic setting it would outweigh my DCV penalty.

Why not?! Because he's The Creeper!

One of mine is falling damage vs move-through damage.

 

HERO assigns a max falling speed (terminal velocity) of 60 meters per segment for 30d6 damage. Oof.

 

The thing is... a move through attack that impacted at 60 meters per segment (ie: a character using  a movement power, a car, etc) inflicts strength + v/6.  So a car with a 'str' of 20 inflicts 14d6 if it moves 60 before hitting you.

 

That's half the damage of striking the ground after falling the same distance in the segment.

 

Why? What makes falling so much more dangerous than being hit by a car travelling at the same distance in that segment? Or a hero strong enough to lift the Statue of Liberty (70) with the same action (14d6 + 10d6 = 24d6)?

Dont forget that falling is acceleration per segment, not just movement. To be falling at terminal velocity, you shall have fallen at least 210 meters before you reach that velocity.

This is an interesting metagame issue. I don't know if this is similar to what you are concerned with, but I was coincidentally looking at 4e Horror Hero this week, and the rules for horror are called "stress." There are different sources for stress, and different consequences that straddle between short term, long term and permanent. I don't have the book handy right now, but is that what you're pondering? Or am, I totally off?

Well, it looks like the suggestion is that the crossover comes when the Range penalty on the shooter is equal to the half DCV penalty.

If you are talking heroic campaign, DCV is high at 6 and so the prone penalty is 3. If you use the optional range modifier table, then you have a penalty of 3 between 17 and 24 metres (about 56 to 80 feet).

Doc

I didn't even catch that. Thanks for the clarification!

Yeah. Target size/cover/hit location rules pretty much cover it. The shooter is penalised for a smaller target, but the target is still 1/2 DCV (and other shooters may have a better angle anyway, such as firing from directly above).

 

If the defender wasn't prone but had the same amount of cover, they'd have a better DCV, which feels right.

The question becomes at what distance these rules cover this situation. At 2 meters being prone is an obvious disadvantage. At what distance does the prone target gain the benefits of his position?

Well, now you're asking new players to invest in three books: Champions Complete, Golden Age Champions, and the campaign setting book. To my mind that's just "business as usual", and "business as usual" is not going to breathe new life into the brand. If you're looking for quick and dirty ways out of the present dilemma, you're not going to solve anything, IMO.

I was thinking the same thing, but I was going to suggest the same problem about something you suggested earlier about a "line of products."

So in other words, I'm misremembering a clear solution to this problem? I could have sworn there was a discussion about this, but I may be wrong.

I know I've seen this as a conversation before, but I just can't track it down. Forgive the duplicate question.

​Common sense and dramatic sensibilities tell us that when you are out in the open and someone is trying to shoot you from a distance, you drop down to the ground to make your silhouette smaller, thus making you harder to hit (whether it's an OCV drop or DCV increase is moot to me, since it all comes out in the wash). However, being prone is a flat 1/2 DCV penalty. My question is this: at what distance should it actually become a DCV bonus (or OCV penalty for the shooter)?

Some considerations:

• If I drop to the ground 1 meter away, I would obviously be easier to hit if someone had a gun. Or even HtH for that matter.
• 10 meters away still seems reasonable to consider me 1/2 DCV.
• At 20 meters, it seems to go either way: maybe it's a hindrance, maybe a benefit. Target shooting at 20 meters in a combat situation isn't all that easy.
• By the time I get to ranges on the range modifier table (16m, 32m, 64m, etc.) and the OCV penalties start kicking in, it seems like the DCV penalty shouldn't be applied anymore since distance is a hindrance, and a smaller silhouette is a benefit.

I'd love to see a "Powered by Hero" stand alone wild west setting with a handfull of adventures in it.  Some stock NPCs, some big names, some basic critters, just like Western Hero.  You could even provide those online for free, with the Hero Designer files for low cost.  Wouldn't actually be that tough to do, there's tons of copyright free western art out there, plus the work is mostly done already.

I saw last year that High Rock Press was planning on releasing Danger International again. I wonder what the policy is with DOJ for re-writing and re-releasing older books? Doing a new Western Hero or Justice Inc. in the mold of Monster Hunters International, along with great campaign/adventure books like Justice Inc. ​had in its original box, could be really interesting projects. 

I know licensing is fairly easy with DOJ, but what if it involves previously owned intellectual property? Anybody know?

Sure, but the real Mystery is why it took seven years and the next edition to cough up the JI Western supplement

 

Maybe we can thank Dances With Wolves for reviving the film genre in 1990?

That's interesting. There were a lot of good Westerns popping up in the late '80s and early '90s: Silverado, Pale Rider, Young Guns I & II, and Unforgiven to name a few off the top of my head. Heck, even Back to the Future III! It seems like Western Hero was a well-timed product. This is what I was trying to say a couple of pages ago in terms of marketing & licensing opportunities. Heck, just looking at the trends of sci-fi, fantasy and urban fantasy today seems like it would make for some great gaming opportunities. 

See the 5 point doubling rule in 5er, p. 456. In short, if you build equipment with powers, you can double it with an extra 5 points.

Yeah, back in 5th ed I ran a cowboy game at a con to test the full lethality of the Hero rules. They were in a shoot out in a church and one of the players, fed up by missing from having to crouch behind a pew to fire, ran out into the middle of the church, guns blazing. A hit to the chest, crit to max damage, a failed Con roll, and he fell dead.

Same here. But I'd still use GURPS The GURPS Lite rules would more than suffice for that one, too.

That's the stuff Western's are made of! Then the whole clan has to go after the bandits, who are some branch of another clan. You get a warring, feuding pair of clans with the ultimate showdown determining the victor. Train stations, corrals, main street and the local silver mine are all good locations for the showdown. Peacemakers, Remington 1875's, Spencer Carbines, and the ubiquitous sawed-off double-barreled shotgun all have to make their appearance. Oh and don't forget a little dynamite just to keep things interesting.

 

Love the cowboy genre.

Western Hero runs really well as a gritty old west system full of tumbleweeds and dust. Crank the lethality to the max and you get a real dangerous gunfighting setting. First session I played in instead of ran, my brother got his head blown off by a lucky shot from some bandits.

In order for such a poll to have any relevance, I think it needs to be conducted outside of these forums. Go where you target audience is (which is not here). We need to know what all those gamers out there who don't already use/love the Hero System want.

 

Then again, sometimes it is better to make what you know in your own heart is awesome and show the unwashed masses what they're missing (the World of Darkness effect). A lot of the time when you ask a hundred gamers what they want, you get a hundred different answers that you then have to dissect in order to find threads of commonality you can use as a design guide. That just feels like a recipe for chasing one's own tail forever trying to accommodate everyone.

By way of a strange coincidence, I got Western Hero in the mail today, and as I looked it over I saw that they have a survey on the last page asking all these same exactquestions we've been discussing about artwork, adventures, etc. I don't know if they got much of a response, but it was interesting to note that they were paying attention to these things in 4e and open to changing their approach.

The thing is, while I agree with the aesthetics of books being important, I've never yet run into a single person online or in person that stopped playing Hero because it was too ugly. Nobody said "well I tried Champions but the book didn't feel enough like a comic book." They say "the books were too big, it scared me off, the math is haaaaaaaaaaard (insert Barbie voice)" etc. Now having pretty books is a nice step, I don't mind that being the case. But the hurdle here isn't with how the books look, its with people being frightened off by being told Hero is hard, too complicated, requires too much math, etc.

800 pages of HERO rules is only for devotees. I'm probably in the minority, but I actually LOVE the 6e core rule books! No joke! They totally appeal to my DIY nerdiness! As pheonix240 points out, that is exactly why some of us are devoted to HERO System. My position here, however, is that good looking game/campaign/adventure books that entice new folks is what will help keep HERO not just alive, but hopefully growing.

Right, but we're not trying to sell you on the Hero System, are we. You are already a member of this tribe.

Appealing to existing players is not on the critical path. What is needed is a product line that will appeal to the casual RPGers who don't want to build most of the campaign world themselves, and want something compelling to play right out of the box. If it allows them to inject their own stuff later on, great, but that's not the design priority.

 

One way to look at it is this: write the kind of amazing campaign setting that you'd want to play in, and then publish it. If it strikes a chord with the general RPG population, then it will be doing the job we need it to do.

I guess I'm thinking of my first experience of reading The Hobbit: all I knew was the Shire at first, with a strange wizard and some dwarves. No explanation needed: I was hooked. The promise of a dragon only lured me on, and then all these other things happened along the way that I didn't see coming. I didn't need to know the rest of Middle Earh to enjoy it, let alone read the Silmarillion beforehand to understand it.

Well there is the obvious "to each his own" kind of statement, but that's not really a useful answer. I was able to follow along in Champions: TNM. I thought it was no more difficult than some of the more esoteric comic book layouts. That said, it isn't the specific book/format that should be copied but the concept of making the page "pop out" in some way. Using a comic book format for a comic book game was brilliant. Hero Games could have followed the concept to make their products just a little more dynamic. Encyclopedia are for reference and ultimately that is what Hero Games books are. That doesn't incentivize a would be consumer to pick up the product and get excited about it, barring previous experience with the system. That's what I was really trying to get at. I just happened to think that Champions: TNM did a great job at it.

 

As to the content, a lot of people would have loved to have seen Hero in those pages. I am one of them, though I am far, far away from being a Fuzion hater. I actually like the system and would have liked to see more done with it from the Hero perspective. I am seriously considering picking up the Champions: TNM PDF products (lost my physical books to relocation relocation syndrome) from the store and soon, because I want something that is mid-way between the exhaustingly crunchy Hero System and the gooey goodness of Fate. It isn't a perfect solution, but it is well within my margin of error for usefulness. All that is an aside to the relative "health" of Hero. Or is it?

I'm sorry if I came off as belittling you.Lucius AlexanderHere, have a palindromedary.

No worries. I was getting ahead of myself anyway.

I guess I was mostly pushing how well it stood up against the opposition in 1985 or so (and cover aside, I think it pips 4e, too) 

 

And directly comparing it to its most current successor (though I forgot to mention that). I love the product to bits, but the interior art in Champions Complete is really second rate (cover is good) and they didn't even work in the very basic superhero layout rule of a character illustration for each example character on the page they're presented. This really annoyed me in the 6e Enemies books, too. It should be NAME at the top, picture underneath, then the rest of the stuff. Not "sometimes over the page" or "anywhere we think it fits". Seriously.

 

I'm glad to hear that art standards for 5e products were better, but that's not really so modern now.

 

However, regardless of our respective assessments of 3e's design and art, I think we are on the same page as far as Champions needing a better look. Other genres can skate by with so-so art, but you REALLY have to present decent visuals for superheroes.

In lieu of being able to "like" your post, I'll just say, "I like this post."

You could have more balls than a guy living across the street from a golf course, and think like a toddler, and it wouldn't help. What you would need is one smooth talker and several million dollars to blow.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Checking the palindromedary's saddle bags

Yeah, some of this should be in the 'dream Hero books" thread. Licensing rights to major IPs are expensive and risky. Or at least not a guarantee of success. Many Licensed games flop. The audience between mediums (book, movie, TV show) and rpg aren't automatically transferable and its a big investment/risk. 

 

And again, could the implications that its just the old fogeys and weirdos that like Hero DIY aspect that are holding it back be failed back a little? I think we'd all like like to see it more popular but not so much at the cost of what endears us to the system.

Sorry, my intent was not to offend anyone. These were the ramblings of a guy with insomnia at midnight! 

Lucius, I was just spitballing here. Obviously those were all just crazy extrapolations, but my point was simply that as DOJ stands pat, they've watched the resurgence and domination of the fantasy/sci-fi world as spectators in the cheap seats. There are a lot of smaller, indy games who have gotten some marketing rights from big franchises that are popular. Perhaps the money problem is why those games don't go more mainstream, so your point is well-taken here. But I think that there has to be some effort to think along these lines. HERO won't be selling a generic superhero game when there is HeroClix available, with DC and Marvel franchising. I know it's not an equal comparison, but it's an example of why Champions won't be discovered by anyone below the age of 50.

And Pheonix240, I don't mean to imply that it's "you people" who are killing the game. I'm one of those aging fans who loves the DIY aspect of it. It's "you people" who are actually keeping that game alive, because nobody new is buying it. I'm trying to understand what you mean by "failed back a little," but I'm guessing autocorrect may have changed it from "scaled back a little." Just a guess on my part, and I apologize if it seemed I was being too aggressive in my condemnation of existing fans. And yes, if I had known there was a "dream book" thread I would have taken those ideas there. They were really just hyperbolic examples spewing from a sleepy mind.

So my point all along has been to find introductory ways to attract new people, but never at the expense of the system itself. DOJ is standing pat on what they've got now, and that's not a growth model. That is a status quo model which will keep aging as fans like us keep aging. In a few decades we won't be around to keep these discussions alive. I think we need to take seriously a way to resuscitate HERO's presence in the market. There are so many young people now who are into gaming, fantasy/sci-fi content of any sort, it seems like there ought to be some effort to attract them to the system.