Brian Stanfield

Exhibit A for my position upstream:

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps

Whelp, that pretty much looks similar to what I've been thinking, except 408 pages seems a bit much for an "out-of-the-box" game.

By shifting points around OCV and skills, I mean at the character modeling stage. I'm that far back on the curve!

I'm starting to feel the same way, and I started playing it back in the '80s! After a long time off, and a bunch of new editions, I'm relearning everything again myself. There's so much more now, which I love! But there's a step learning curve. Hence this thread, right?

If you want more people to play Hero then they have to have a familiar reference point that will translate into deeper usage of the system. Getting your head around the works is enough work.

Edit:

The sheer flexibility of Hero makes it difficult to know what one of the more traditional types even looks like on paper, without the wisdom garnered from experience playing the game.

These are good points, and important to remember. That's what was holding my buddy back: he understood the fantasy tropes we are all familiar with, but he didn't understand what they looked like in Fantasy Hero. He appreciated the flexibility, but he was also overwhelmed by it, and couldn't figure out how it would look on paper. I was more than willing to help him do the translations, but he didn't even now where to start asking questions. He wanted to actually look at something and read it, not just depend on my explanation, and that probably ended out making everything worse for him.

Bear in mind it's from 3rd edition, using Hero as a sort of house system rather than universal.  It doesn't even include the Powers rules, and it has its own specialized build system for mecha weapons.  But those 12 pages are freakin' gold.  

Why is it listed in the 5e Star Hero part of the store? Has it been updated? 

Hero Designer can be a useful tool, and I sometimes use it when I've already finished a character design to more quickly export them onto a player character sheet. However, it exposes those of us using CC/FHC as our primary rules reference to lots of confusing and extraneous information because you cannot filter out all the shit that doesn't exist in CC/FHC. As I've grown more experienced with Hero, I've come to view Hero Designer as a crutch, and worse, one that encourages bad habits. Now days I do all my writing in Hero from scratch, using the books themselves. Doing so has honed my understanding of the rules (because I spend more time reading the actual books), and encouraged me to develop more efficient formats for describing Game Elements. Now I've got a fairly good collection of Open Document files that I can use to generate content (mostly) in keeping with the Writers Guidelines for 6th edition (something that is actually fairly difficult to do with the information exported from Hero Designer).

 

I love that! Everything is better with magitechno-babble!

 

Meanwhile Back On Topic:

One of the last people I taught Hero to was very dyslexic, and therefore almost literally couldn't read the rule book. The formatting of power constructs apparently made it much worse, so even Champions Powers wasn't much help. Eyes glazing over didn't even begin to describe their problem with the system. They had a much, much easier time learning the system after I built a character to their specification and we played a few sessions with it.

 

If your friend has already asked for a Pre-Gen; I suggest getting in touch with him a few days before your next attempted gaming session and figuring out what kind of character he'd like to play. Then build as simple a version of that character as you can, explain to him you'll revise the character based on his feedback after the session (because a character built based on a verbal description is never perfect), and run him through a few simple scenarios so that he can roll some dice and have some fun. Focus on getting your friend over the hurtle before you spend too many hours trying to write a whole tutorial; you need the experience too, and his feedback will be invaluable in informing your tutorial later.

I have the same experiences with Hero Designer. I'd rather have a book in hand anyway to read the rules as I try things out. As you say, it helps create familiarity.

As for the pre-gen, here's the funny part: I sat down with his 11-year-old daughter when I was back home for Thanksgiving and we built a character in half an hour! I just asked her what she wanted to play, and she just started rattling off stuff (a young woman raises by wolves but taught druidry by an old woman who found her in the wilderness, she can talk to animals, control the weather, she lacks social skills, frightens people easily, and defends nature with ferocity). She really got into the spirit and the whole world was open to her. She even came up with her own Complications through the process. I think this is what we're really supposed to be doing when we build characters!

I tried the same thing with my buddy, and his decades of experience with D&D and Pathfinder made him really unsure of what he could or should pick, how the different parts related to each other, what templates were more useful, etc. etc. He was crippled by his gaming expertise, stuck trying to figure out if spells or swords were "better," which skills were "better," and things like this. I gave him the "Hero in 2 Pages" to read, and he looked at the combat example document I found somewhere, but it just seemed to confuse him more because now he got derailed in wanting to know all the minutiae of the characteristics in combat, and he spun off into more questions than he could handle. Meanwhile, his little girl just jumped in with both feet and had a blast because I was there to translate everything for her.

We never did play over Thanksgiving weekend, which was our plan. I gave him stuff to look at for when I returned for Christmas and New Years, but by then he had read so many different things that he got even more confused, even after I offered to build a character for him. We never did play over the holiday break this time either. This is what got me thinking in the first place. Some sort of document that can give newbies baby-steps, but also give some sort of orientation for more experienced gamers who aren't familiar with the Hero System yet. In two long holiday weekends we got exactly 0 hours of play in. Part of it is my fault, I understand, but I need an easier way to try to teach the game.

That is part of what, I think, Hero has to always fight against. Its lack of familiarity is "hard" for experienced gamers, and its complexity is too much for new gamers. In all honesty, when I grabbed the GURPS Lite document that someone mentioned last week, I read and understood it in an hour, enough so that I felt like I could maybe make a character with some people and play a little bit in one evening. We need something like this. Something more than 2 pages, but less than, say, 700, or even the 266 pages of Fantasy Hero Complete.

There's no way that I could build out powers with Hero Designer. My current project is about running the hero's journey where the PCs start out as skilled normals, so the software was nice for shifting points around the various character aspects, that is skills vs OCV, etc. That actually helped get us to the table. Even then it took a lot of book referencing and rule section unwinding.

Have you tried Hero Combat Manager yet? I haven't, but it takes care of a lot of that stuff for you (from what I understand).

Personally much of these arguments are why I would prefer an 175-point Adventurers Gallery (ala the Superhero Gallery from Champions) to having a dozen example characters. In such a gallery every 175-point archetype might present two or three characteristic sets (Strong Knight, Agile Knight, etc) built on 85-100 points and would instruct players to select the rest of their game elements from multiple choice lists of skillsets and racial templates built on 15 to 30 points each. Each archetype would be Human by default, but if the player wants to play an Elf Knight instead, they simply replace one of their skillsets with the Elven Racial Template. Likewise if they wanted their Knight to know "just a little magic" they could replace one or more of their skillsets with a 30 point "Minor Magic" template that gave them a weak Multipower Reserve and 3 to 5 "spell" slots. Such a system would leverage players familiarity with D&D style character generation, yet still allow them to benefit from the inherent versatility of the Hero System.

I'm inclined to agree with you here. Although I like the utility of pre-gens, I never really like playing them myself. I think a gallery with variations, or groups of templates to choose from (one from race, one from profession, etc.) that are all balanced in terms of points is the better option. So we don't have to create characters that may or may not interest someone based on their own preferences, we only need to offer them a list of choices to pick on their own. It would be a very simple character creation method, but gets their feet wet with some of the choices to be made and how they relate to each other. Someone wants to play a dwarf? Fine. A dwarf archer, you say? I hadn't thought of that. It's weird, but hey, go ahead and pick that skill set to go with the dwarf template. Let's see what happens. 

There's a little bit of investment in terms of character building, but it doesn't derail into the rabbit hole of research that paralyzed my buddy when he first looked at the character sheet. 

 

Thinking back to my first few Champions characters, back in the 1900's, even I stayed away from Multipowers and Elemental Controls.  I still strongly recommend that the spellcasters for the Fantasy Hero Begins product be built with a very basic "pay your points, get your spell" model.  Once all of the players, and the GM if need be, have graduated beyond the need for the beginner's set, then they can play with deeper builds.  

 

Robot Warriors is an excellent example of this.  Pages 6-18 of the book present exactly what we're talking about: the Battle Game, which is a very basic combat scenario (nothing more than "slap down a hex board, choose a couple of sample robots, fight!"), a sample robot sheet, and a few pages of description about how this thing and that thing and the other thing work without going into any detail at all about how to build them.  In fact, it doesn't even bother with a character sheet for the pilot.  Hopefully fair use permits this quote from the book:

 

 

This thing right here. That is what we should be striving for.  I would recommend that everyone, if you don't already have Robot Warriors in paper or bits, head over to the Hero Games store and drop $4.98 on it.  

 

(The size of the rulebook, by the way, that they don't want you to get intimidated by, is 160 pages total, including the Battle Game, how to build robots, the roleplaying game with how to build characters, how to fight, campaigning, and so on.)  

I have never looked at Robot Warriors. I'm going to go pick it up now just to see what you're talking about. I notice that they are a special point of explaining the quick-start Battle Game as a way to play the game right away. This is what I'm trying to develop here as a concept. 

I honestly don't see any way to do a Multipower that exposes the game element code block* while remaining simple.  You can expose it and get the eye-glaze, or you can hide it, in which case I'm not sure why you're bothering to call it a Multipower.  You can group a bunch of spells and say "You can only use one of these at a time," without even bringing up the word Multipower; that's what we're trying to achieve with the rest of the magic system.  Again, Multipower is in the appendix at the back of the book, with the full Powers rules, for when a player is ready.  Until then, we're spending points to choose things off a list.  Any more complicated than that and we lose people.  

 

While D&D and its derivatives have a lot of info, they do a not-terrible job of filtering out stuff for new players.  Even if you're a caster of some kind, starting out at first level reduces your options to "choose a spell from this small list".  As a player, you can learn the new stuff as your character advances to need it.  Shallow end first.  

 

* which is what I'm calling the full Power build info that causes a beginner's eyes to glaze over

Yes, in retrospect I think maybe this is the point I was trying to make. I agree. I'm more inclined to say, as has been bought up, "pick 5 spells: 2 attack, 1 defense, 1 utility, and 1 of any kind" just to make things simple. Attack spells can only be cast one at a time, but defense spells and movement spells can be maintained. This would all be revealed in the "build appendix" later. 

And it goes off the rails again.

 

This is not about showcasing hero build rules or introducing specific setting micro-niche races/archetypes.  

 

It is about taking the most common and widely known races/archetypes and deliberately avoiding the build/creation system as much as possible.

 

That way new to hero players and GM's can see an example of how the system plays using set common known races/archetypes as a reference to understanding the game stats as applied to the game world.  

 

A warrior with a sword that hits does X. 

An archer with a bow hit like this and does damage like this.

Armor works like this.

A 15 STR can throw X.

 

The basics that most players never get to because they abandon the game in character generation because they have to make decisions on builds with no reference.  

 

In order to get Hero back into the eye of gamers it has to be interesting they have to be guided to playing the game.  Not being driven away before they even begin by the build/CharGen rules.   The demo should be able to be played without any referencing anything in the Character Generation portion of FHC. 

Dear god don't let them open that part of the book!!! At least until they have played through the Demo game scenarios. 

 

After the first scenario or two of play,  give them a couple pre-defined choices to spend XP on.  Just like FFG's Star Wars beginner sets.

 

Part 1:

Three or four scenarios with pregenerated PC's designed to allow the players and GM to play a FH game with zero or very very very limited exposure to the build rules. 

  >Play scenarios 1 & 2

  >Apply XP

  >Play scenarios 3 & 4.

Nothing unique, just common standard PC's and threats using common and standard races and archetypes. 

Operating key parameters, common well know races/archetypes/threats only. 

 

Part 2:

Now that you have played a few scenarios, let's answer some questions.  How was everything in Book 1 built.  Why were certain decisions made? Why Why Why does the Hero Build rules do this that and the other thing.   Just what is meant by "reason from effect" in practice?

 

Part 3:

Just for fun lets all build a Human Warrior!

And then lets play the warriors in Scenario 5 to see what we did!

 

Part 4:

Now that we have a idea of what we are dealing with, lets have fun!

Making you own archetypes. 

Just abandoning archetypes altogether.

Suggestions for custom races. 

Magic?  Magic devices? 

Unleashing Heroes ability to model anything!

 

For the last 30+ years Hero has made the assumption that a players eventual wish to customize means there wasn't any need fo them to actually play before trying to write everything from the basement up.  

 

The reality is players eventually wish to customize games after they have played them enough to want to get creative. 

 

Play then Build.

Not "Try to build without reference and then maybe play".

 

I think FHC and CC are fantastic books.....for the GM and player who are well experienced in playing and running game using the Hero rules.  

Everything is presented quite clearly....if you already know the basics.

 

But to actually get to the play rules you have to navigate virtually blind through the hero build rules with no reference for how build decisions will actually work in play.  

 

Anyway, enough soap box. 

 

Carry on smartly

So let me play devil's advocate here (my own custom professional template?):

I started this thread with the idea that I wanted to simplify learning the game rules, but also the character creation rules. So if we give pre-gens it is not teaching a simplified method of character generation. I know I always hated pre-gen characters when I learned a game. That's just me, but as has been pointed out, one of the great strengths of Hero is that it can offer templates without creating undue constraints on character generation.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get your point here: learn the game play first and then learn how to build characters. But if we keep adding more to it, as you suggest in multiple parts, that potentially gets to be a huge document again.

Would it be a good compromise to offer quick-creation rules? Say choose one race template, which are all built with an equal number of points, and one professional template based on the same number of points, to create the basic framework for the player. Perhaps a list of skills, weapons, and spells to flesh out the basic starting structure. It seems like it would be a step up from a pre-gen in the sense that it offers the flexibility, shows variety, but also get their feet wet while keeping it simple. That way we don't have to limit things to one dwarf fighter, one elven archer, etc., but could have the templates to choose from, all with a tight point cap to keep them equal no matter what you choose.

I'm kinda curious to see what these Champions character creation cards are going to look like. I've also brought up the Champions quick character creation in 5th and the Super Hero Gallery in 6th edition, but nobody seems to have an opinion on these things. It seems like the could offer a model for quick, balance character creation.

Easy for you and me, maybe, and others who have playing Hero since the late 1900's.  Brian (the OP), do you want to run this past your buddy?  

I tried this before, giving him basics on the magic system I had in mind, and he just said, "show me a list of spells I can choose from." That is fairly instructive for this project, and is partly why I started thinking about it. For him, I think, he was already beyond frustrated and just wanted things to me made as simply as possible. By the time he finally just said, "how about you just make a pre-gen for me," we ran out of time and haven't been able to get back to it since. 

In addition, Lucius, I let my beginner friend play around with Hero Designer, but it really didn't help him at all because he didn't have any sort of reference point for which skills, talents, etc., were really useful because he didn't yet understand how the game played. Even after I bought all the Fantasy Hero Hero Builder packs he was still not very comfortable or clear about what to choose. He had no rationale in his mind yet.

With this in mind, Spence's (and others') suggestion that the build information is provided in an appendix or separate document is a really good idea. Giving a rationale for each build seems like it would be absolutely essential to helping players learn the hows and whys about building a character. 

I agree with Doc's disagreement.

Allocating limited resources, such as CSLs and points of Multipower Reserve, is one of the Hero System's basic principles.

Regardless, it really is quite easy (for a fairly experienced writer) to create a pregenerated Multipower Reserve such that in the "Quick-Play Rules" you can only cast one "Attack or Utility Spell" per phase (because they are Multipower Slots that use the entire reserve), while maintaining a Movement Spell and any number of Defensive Spells (which are bought outside the reserve as a general rule). Even continuing effect spells aren't that hard to fit into a simplified power framework, that is exactly what Continuing Charges, Uncontrolled, and Time Limit (as an Advantage) are most commonly used for.

I agree  that a multipower doesn't have to be complicated, but now you're running the risk of this getting confusing for a beginner again. A magic multipower is pretty straightforward, but once you start talking about the reserve, spells which aren't part of the multipower, etc., it gets to be potentially confusing. 

It seems like you could bypass some of the troubles by requiring attack spells to carry the limitations of gestures and concentration, so only one could ever be used at a time. The movement and defensive spells don't have to have these limitations so that they can be maintained from phase to phase. All of this information would be, of course, hidden from view so that they don't have to keep track of this stuff in their first few games.

If we're talking about a Red Boxy Fantasy Hero here, the GM's job should be as commensurately simplified as that of the players. And perhaps Expert provides the peek into the depths of the game.

 

Just a comment from the newb peanut gallery, who's still following along.

Thanks for hanging in there! You're right, we need to consider what the GM needs to know right "out of the box" as well. So far we've been focusing on the character creation, with the assumption (perhaps?) that the GM would be the experienced one. But what if the GM was new as well? We covered a lot of what the beginning player needs as far as charts and such. What is the bare minimum a new GM would need? There is a great free download for a GM screen, but it gives all kinds of crazy details. Perhaps we'd need a new, simplified GM screen with all the tables and info in one place. What else?

Sure.  WE make the characters. . .

 

. . . Stats, Skills, Talents, Perks, Powers, Complications, Gear, Name, and a one paragraph character description/history.

 

Are we doing 150+25?  Are we doing 5th or 6th?

 

Yeah, this will take a few hours to crank out.  But once it's done then your whole fantasy world is populated.  Plus you'll have hand-out characters so you can run one-off games & demo games to your heart's content.

Very good point. What do you think of the quick-build templates that I brought up before, or the quick-build cards that are coming out this year at High Rock Press? Although I like the simplicity you're bringing to the table, do you think there is merit in offering a simplified character creation method rather than offering a list of pre-gens?

With this in mind, Christopher Taylor (IIRC) suggested starting with 100 points, and letting the next 75 come from the introductory adventures. Characters could buy or acquire new skills, etc., as they learn how the game plays. It's not a bad idea at all, and if we gave some base templates to work from we could create some basic characters in a few minutes, and then develop them over time.

By the way, I think that we're going with 6e, more specifically Fantasy Hero Complete since that's the one that's actually getting some support at this point. We shouldn't tag an out of print book or ruleset to a beginner product.

Regarding Brian's last post:

There are also design considerations regarding the number of spells known which we tend to inherit from other systems. . . .

 

. . . I know VPPs are an advanced topic, not generally suitable for new players... but frankly, playing a Wizard in pathfinder is an advanced topic, not generally suitable for new players too, so its not like we should be all that surprised.

And here we run into the problem of a reasonable magic system, yet again. So many threads on this! I guess You already mentioned that what Christopher Taylor has presented looks a lot like a VPP, and I'm inclined to agree if there is some sort of cap on how many spells can be used. This would have to be resolved. 

But then again, I'm really looking at trying to create something that works for a first-time exposure to Fantasy Hero, and will only run for a few adventures. Once they get their feet wet, with all the data neatly hidden from view but dutifully cited, then they can begin to learn Fantasy Hero Complete. So really, for 5 or so adventures, if there is an arbitrary limit of, say, 5 spells to start with, and then maybe a couple learned along the way from scrolls or something, it gives the players enough to run with. 

So with that in mind . . .

At the very least you have to include enough information for the player/GM to reverse engineer the Game Elements of these spells without guesswork. For example, FHC omits the Game Elements of Weapons and Armor... However, because it gives clear and concise rules for how they are built, and notes their Active and Real costs, a Player or GM can fairly easily reverse engineer them, and double check their work.

My explicit goal (in this thread only) is to not create something that has to live beyond a few adventures. So there is no need for "reverse engineering" the spells. I would prefer referencing spells from the Hero System Grimoire, but in simplified form as Chris posted, with the more detailed build information cited for their further development. I know my buddy's mind shut down when he looked at spells and saw all of the abbreviations, modifiers, etc. I don't want to dissuade people from having access to this info, but I am really emphasizing hiding the technical stuff away for another day (but making it easy to find when the time is right). 

What I imagine all of this doing is to create some quick characters and have some adventures, and then discover everything they'd do differently with their characters now that they understand how the game plays a little better. This was my buddy's suggestion, and it makes a lot of sense. Nobody ever likes their first character they build for these very reasons. 

The more we can strip out the frontloaded information, at least for absolute beginners, while still staying true to the game, the better off they will be. They can forget about what all the terminology means and just focus on playing. The less technical jargon we can hide, the better. 

This is, again, for beginners only. This isn't intended to be a substitute for the full game. Computer games always have those hokey tutorials where you press the buttons when they tell you to, and move to pick up that highlighted item, etc. I'm not trying to recreate that, but I do have in mind something where players can whip something up and try it out with as little reading and preparation as possible. Included in this concern is making sure there is as simplified an interface as possible so they don't get hung up on the data.

What I don't want to happen is for someone to give up because those spells seems cool, but can't figure out what "RKA 2d6 (vs. ED), Area of Effect (30m Line, Nonselective; +1/4) (37 APs); Beam (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  13 points" actually means. I seriously watched my friend go into a shell when he was presented with the spells for Fantasy Hero. He was excited up until that point, and then just flipped to some other stuff that would hopefully make sense. I literally watched his interest fade away as he looked through the spells. Even with cool names and explanations, he still got hungup on the terminology which he felt he needed to know. 

My goal is simply to say, "Hey, there's all this stuff to know in the complete rules, but here's how it works in simple form. Don't worry about all that build information and other stuff. You can find more details in Fantasy Hero Complete when you're ready for it." 

OK here is the proposed system for Fantasy Begins

 

Philosophy: What is needed is a super stripped-down primer in magic, as part of a tutorial.  All spells should be simple, direct, and to the point, without multiple effects or complex builds.  All spells should be easy for a beginning player to understand and be easily explained in a single sentence.  As the intro adventure progresses, more complex concepts such as learning new spells and other constructs such as concentration and focus can be added.  Proposed maximum active point cost for this starting adventure is 40 points.  I also propose characters start pretty cheap and build up with rapid chunks of xps as well (100-150 pts at most) into full 175 pt heroic characters like the Champions Begins project.

 

All spells have the same limitations:

• Requires Magic Skill Roll (unmodified by active cost) or an attack roll (-¼)*
• Incantations (-¼)
• Gestures (-¼)
• Extra Time Half Phase (-¼)
• All spells should cost END at least to start (--)

*This means that characters do not have to worry about their exact skill roll with any given spell, its just a straight roll of success or failure for every spell.  However, if a spell has some attack roll vs DMCV or DCV, then there is no magic roll, it simply goes off and may or may not hit.

 

As will be noted below, all this is behind the scenes, it just gives all magic a shared set of requirements that players can easily grasp and that help make them feel "magical."  The limitations allow the GM to exploit limitations in magic as well: a bound or gagged wizard has no spells.

 

Each character chooses a specific type of magic they want to have to begin with.  That magic starts with a set number of spells.  You pay a set amount of points to use that kind of magic.  For example, Bob the Caster chooses Elemental Magic and spends 20-40 of his points to use spells from that Magical School.  There are two levels of magic that characters can choose from: Apprentice and Skilled.  

 

Apprentice level magic is primarily meant for "multiclass" type of characters such as the spell casting warrior or the magical rogue type.  (20 pts)

Skilled level magic is for the spellcasting specialist.  It costs (40 pts), twice as much as Apprentice magic (allowing for a dual magic type character to be built for the premade characters or if a character wants more than one magical school).

 

Behind the scenes, we know that the points spent on the magical ability are the maximum power level that a character can wield in that Magical School .  Thus, spending 20 points on magic gives a maximum power level of 20 active points that the caster can handle.  When people get spells for their magic, they simply pay money to buy or be trained, find them as treasure, or make them up themselves (eventually), just like a warrior type gets their weapons and armor.

 

The cost to use magic is fairly high, which prohibits characters from having a lot of other abilities in addition, so they are more focused.  This means someone who buys no magic has a lot of skill-based flexibility a mage will not, such as transport familiarities, languages, stealth, etc.

 

I propose that a spellcasting character starts with four spells, and I propose they get to choose them like some board games from cards: one attack, one defense, one utility, and then one of any you want.  With the cards, it also can say what the spells do on them, so the Players can hold a card and know what their spell does without writing stuff down.  And, if you keep your card, that means nobody else has the same spells you do.

 

Further, characters that are apprentice level I propose just get the spells given them without the choosing thing; you start with these spells.  Perhaps they should start with fewer spells as well?

 

Magical Schools should be pretty basic and easy to understand categories of familiar concepts.  I'm only going to work up some stuff for three types here

• Elemental Magic (four elements of fire, water, air, and earth, primarily offensive magic.  This is the "blow em up in combat" magic type)
• Nature Magic (druidic type stuff, healing, transforming into an animal, summons, ensnaring with vines, etc.  Primarily a support magic type)
• War Magic (magic to enhance yourself, to be better in combat and personal utility; good for spellswords, etc)

Starting Spells should be the usual basic stuff: An attack, a defense, a utility, and one other.  For clean concepts and simplicity, I propose the Elemental Magic be almost exclusively simple combat stuff, without much utility at all.  And the Nature magic be almost entirely utility with no direct attack damage spells.

 

continued...

I like the idea of characters starting with 100 points and working their way up through the first adventures. 

As for the difference in talent levels, I'm down with that. But I'm wondering, if you keep the talent system, if you'd have a cap to the number of spells available? As Cantriped pointed out, it's starting to look like a VPP. I'm as concerned with the number of spells available as the AP cap because if you make the spells free, a player could have a ridiculous number of spells. If you introduce some limit to the number of spells known you'd have to introduce a mechanic for that. 2xINT number of spells? Total of Real Points can't exceed the AP cap in the talent (in which case, it is a VPP).

I guess for a beginners' product you could select just a handful to start the game and not worry about all of this stuff, right? 

As for the magical skills and spells, I think matching the Hero System Grimoire is the most attractive option. Schools and spells are already there, and you could just pick a few for beginners. Then you don't have to worry about explaining the builds, you only have to reference the book and page numbers of the already-existing spells. I'm wondering if you've based this (roughly speaking) on the Kestrel Grimoire you created?

 

Here's a suggestion.  Have the product treat spells as if they were Talents.  Have a cost, small stat block that looks something like D&D's spell stat block, and a short description of what it does.  Put the Powers section at the very back of the book, in the appendix, and then the "game element code" of each of the spells after it in much the same way as is done with the Talents.  

 

There could be a magic system that goes along with it, either implied or explicit, or they could just be spells from the Grimoire.  They could have variations -- maybe each one has a weak version and a powerful version, with their point costs and whatever makes them different from the basic one (for instance: Powerful Fireball - does 3d6 with an Explosion radius of 18m; cost 21 points).

 

 

The GM should be able to run the game without having the sausage recipe, but it's there for when they're ready for it.

This is pretty much what I was shooting for at the beginning. The stuff up front can have references to other books so the details may be looked up if desired. But you throw stat blocks up there, no matter how simple, and people get freaked out and wonder what they're supposed to do with that information which they don't understand yet, and then begin to dread that they need to know it all before they can learn the parts. At least this is what I watched happen to my buddy (remember, he is the inspiration for this thread). If it references the Grimoire then the details can be learned when the player is ready. 

 

 

This is why I've built my magic system around paying points for talents that control how powerful a magic you can use in what "school" or type, then the spells are not bought with points.  LIke a warrior buying skill levels and familiarities, then using weapons with them that they don't buy with points; spells are the mage's weapons and equipment.

 

But my concern is that if you have two kinds of characters:

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc)... and warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc

 

Then you've got a basic design imbalance.  Even the way hero balances stuff out with points, if you have warriors who can do 2d6 KA spellcasters who can do 2d6 KA, vs energy defense, and a 3d6 NND, and a 5d6 AE blast etc, then again the wizard has the edge.

 

This is starting to look like the problem I was wrestling with in my other post about VPP magic. Your concern about game balance is the big one in Fantasy Hero. But I'm more inclined to say that warriors and wizards begin to distinguish themselves based on their point-builds over time. Things like telekinesis, flight, and fancy magic stuff gets to be more expensive, and so isn't as much of a concern for beginners. But as they progress, the points balance out. At least in theory. This is why I always require wizards to pay for their spells, always. If spells are treated as other equipment, then they could amass piles of devastating spells for no cost, which then leads to the unbalancing effect you point out. If they have to pay points, you will have:

Wizards who can cast and kill things, and do other skill stuff (navigate, speak languages, etc) but less effectively because they decided to spend their points on spells, such as warp time and space, summon things, use telekinesis, heal wounds etc, etc, but only as much as they can afford. So they can choose between a few more powerful spells (which won't be available for a beginner with an AP cap), or become more generalized and therefore not overly dominant in the game.

Warriors who can fight and kill things, and do other skills stuff a lot more effectively​ because they'd have spent their points on CSLs and talents that the wizard can't because he's specialized in spells.

​This is of course a problem of defining the magic system as a whole. How does END fit in (another one of my most recent threads), and stuff like that. But if there is no point cost, it seems like one of the most efficient things balancing magic in the game is lost.

I'm not sure using a skill system is actually your best option, but I'm admittedly quite biased against using skill rolls to activate spells at all (my turakian age mage died because of a failed magic skill roll). Although they do reduce the entry cost of magic, they also add an unnecessary extra roll to the process which may slow down gameplay, and they add extra rules which have to be explained before players can use such a system.

I hadn't really thought about the activation roll process. I just always used it as an assumption (and to keep costs down). I never really liked the idea of offensive spells always automatically "hitting" without a roll, although I understand the desire to keep the number of rolls down. It seems like it would be unbalancing.

I wonder how the magic systems affect new players.  Some of them are kind of complex with power frameworks, etc.  But most games with magic have somewhat complicated systems in them.

I'm curious too. My buddy (the source of this thread) was having enough trouble with understanding how all the characteristics and skills worked together along with combat. When we sorted that out and he ran into the powers section of Fantasy Hero Complete, he just shut down like he ran into a wall. The powers, while the engine that makes Hero System work, are admittedly not easy.

So with that in mind, I'm thinking a simple skill-based system would be the way to go for a basic beginner, with a list of spells to chose from (extracted form the Hero System Grimoire) in order to keep things simple. The spells would be grouped according to different types of magic, and maybe a simple explanation with the AP and real cost included.

The reason why I'm thinking this would work is that it would avoid the 100 pages of powers and modifiers in the middle of the book. A spell list is not as fun as making your own spells, but again this is for beginners who probably won't be building their own stuff right out of the box anyway. But if the spell lists match the HS Grimoire then they can be used as learning tools for understanding how the powers work. After the first few adventures, and maybe some curiosity about different spells, then perhaps they'd be ready to read about the powers, using the complete spell builds from the Grimoire as examples to fiddle with and expand on until they are ready to build their own. By this point, they'd be much more experienced, and the campaign would be more fleshed out and ready for more advanced play.

Just a hunch on my part. . . .

We used to track damage by inflicting wounds on the player to match those on his character. It really helps with the roleplaying.

 

Note: this post may contain factual inaccuracies.

I think that's part of Champions LARP . . . .    This could be a game changer for Fantasy Hero, though!

To Eisenmann, Christopher Taylor, and Cantriped: I love your ideas! For the time being, let's leave production costs and logistics out of consideration. Brainstorm without constraint!

The cards have come up many times. Has anybody noticed the announcement from High Rock Press https://highrockpress.com/blogs/news/high-rock-press-production-schedule-2 that they will be producing character creation cards for Champions? Anybody have any idea how these cards will work?

This would work even better for Fantasy Hero, it seems, because a lot of things like spells and weapons can be pre-fabbed. The character classes and races could also make for great starting-points for building characters with cards. Contriped, you seem to be right in line with this sort of idea. Equipment cards, complication cards, etc., are a great idea.

Eisenmann, I really like your idea of using little beads or whatever, or Cantriped's tokens, to track different stats. This is visually intuitive. The only possible problem I can see is that players need to keep track of specific numbers of STUN, for example, to determine whether their characters are stunned (compared to their CON). Perhaps this may be one of those rules that could be eliminated for basic play, but it's pretty basic to the game. Do you use a card for the aquarium stones to show what the pool is, and what is used? It's possible to indicate "if x number of STUN is moved from your pool, you are stunned for one phase," or something like that. What do you do?

With all of that being said, I mentioned this before, but it's come full-circle: anybody remember the Quick Character Generator in Champions 5e? It has all the archetypical character types (brick, speedster, etc.) and variations on those. This would work really easily for fantasy, as I already pointed out. Does anybody have any experience with using the Quick Generator?

One thing I would change was not to give a fighter 3 different csls with a newbie. Not saying a newbie couldn't gronk it. but my brother had a hard time and he's not new to RPGs.

 

Second problem (again my brother) was meta. Instead of a classic thief, I created Lockbanes. They were dwarfs who could do some thief skills like find and remove traps but wouldn't pickpocket or backstab. He couldn't gronk dwarfs to be like that. More importantly he wouldn't just slide with it because it was my freaking world.

One of the problems I always had with learning new games was that their unique worlds has different rules and archetypes, etc., which made it harder for me to learn (at least in my own mind). If I'm used to D&D character classes and races, it's hard to shift to something different. As you point out, it's a meta-problem, but a real one. I'm picturing using the traditional (i.e. D&D) tropes for the game in term of classes, races, spells, weapons, economy, etc. This makes the transition a little more intuitive. 

As a side note, what I do not want to include is a level system and Vancian magic. These two things are the exact reasons why I turned to Fantasy Hero in the first place in the '80s! Your introductory adventure is a great idea. I think I may have read a similar post from you in another thread before, and I really like the built-in situations that give a player their first combat, skills tests, new contacts, and XP. 

No worries, everyone. I don't think anyone was trying to derail anything. Thanks for the input you've given so far. Everyone has really good ideas on what can be done, but what I was hoping was that, rather than theorizing about what is scaring off the newbies, I could actually get some insight from the newbies themselves. Eisenmann's last comment seems to sum up how largely unsuccessful this has been. I do appreciate your suggestions though.

I think we've now hit on the real problem for newbs.

I'm going to venture a guess that you're reading the past two pages of posts in the same way I am: why has this backslid into a rules debate about healing?

These are the complex discussions that, while interesting and important, are exactly what intimidate the newbies from posting. Let's try to stay on track here. . . .

Anyway, attempting to get back on topic... I found in my hard drive a gaggle of free supplements for Champions Complete​ (including a Combat Example, Converting Old Characters To Champions Complete, Example Characters From Other Genres, Rules For Animal Creation, and Talent Creation)... I could have sworn I downloaded them from here, but I can't find them in the Downloads section now. The Combat Example in particular struck me as the sort of thing that would help Brian teach his friend how to play FHC... although admittedly I could be wrong since it references the example characters from Champions Complete.

These were bundled with Champions Complete, so only for paying customers. I have them too and didn't realize it until the other day. I don't know why they didn't include all of these things for FHC, although a Fantasy Hero in 2 Pages document was included, as well as sample monsters, etc. But why not all these other documents too? Especially the combat example. It just feels like, even with new products, they are on autopilot with their decisions. There needs to be some new blood with new ideas.