Brian Stanfield

Perhaps. But past history and my own intuitive sense of what draws new players tells me that the above hypothesis is wishful thinking at best. IMO, the only thing that will generate interest (and consequently demand for more product) is a compelling campaign setting with full-blown supplement support. The "beginner book" would take the form of the "core" book of the setting, just like with MHI.

 

I don't believe that dipping one's toes in the water with a single little book will do anything, at all, to attract significant numbers of new players. The only strategy with any hope, I believe, is to dive in with a deep financial commitment to a complete product line based around a killer campaign setting that anyone who loves its genre (be it sci-fi, fantasy, or otherwise) would be drooling over just from the promotional art and text (and maybe a bit of brief introductory fiction).

 

I am keenly aware of all the obstacles to that strategy, and how unrealistic it is believed to be (even by me). Nevertheless, I predict that anything short of a successful product campaign of that nature will ever achieve any of the goals set forth by anyone who has ever said, "What the Hero System needs (to attract new players and sustain itself for years to come) is..."

So I'll mark you down for "not interested in contributing" to this project . . . .

Its a start, though, and all I can offer, as well as most people here.  Its my hope that with that as a starting seed, more people will recognize the value and get involved.  Like, say, the actual company Hero Games.

I ran out of my likes-quotes for the day, so I thought I'd acknowledge this another way. I love your work, and have much of it. For now I'm looking at this as an open-source approach to a beginners' guide. I'd love if Hero Games were to support it in the end, but I don't expect it. I'm just looking for a way to help try to reverse what looks like a contraction of Fantasy Hero. 

I commend community efforts of all kinds, but I'll reiterate that one "beginner's book" does not a full product line strategy make.

But without a beginner's book, there is no new community and no need for a full product line. I know you're familiar with this catch-22, and I don't disagree, but a baby step is needed to break inertia. Perhaps a successful beginner's product, independently produced, will create a demand for a product line. Anyway, that's why I'm dragging this out into the light again. I'd really like to hear what beginners actually want, and try to get away from years of veterans trying to tell beginners what they should want. The books that are intended for beginners are really not as helpful as they think. They are the same books boiled down and re-served, with the same old tired explanations about how to learn the system, without acknowledging that maybe there's another way to teach it.

I look forward to your input because you seem to have a clear idea of what could help.  

You're not the only one to reach that conclusion. This forum community is in general agreement with you. The problem is that we can't really do anything of significance to address the issue. We simply don't have the resources. Unfortunately, neither does Hero Games.

This is a shame. I'm going to try to do something about this. I've seen you discuss this problem before, and I can see where you're coming from. HERO spent years generating new genre books, rules supplements, and things like that. But they were never very good introductions for new people. Even the Basic Rulebook is a bit dense for someone whose never played before. It may take a little time before I can plan this out, but I'm really interested in coming up with a better way to introduce new people to the Hero System.

As a long time admirer of and on-again off-again student of the HERO system, I'm loving this thread.

 

I'd already attempted to learn Hero when I saw that Fantasy Hero Complete was being released. I bought it with great enthusiasm and dove in. I have to say that it helped but I also had to lean on Champions Complete, the 6th Edition Basic Rulebook (found on FLGS shelf), lots of forum trawling, some delving into the big blue books, and referencing one of the free GM screens. It was super handy for getting a handle on damage classes.

 

Chris Goodwin's How to Play HERO System was an incredible help. My players and I were able to use it as a reference - "Yup, I really do understand this part."

Awesome! It looks like you pretty much got bit by the same bug as most of us. One book leads to another . . . . I like Chris Goodwin's introduction as well, and don't want to step on his great work. I'm not trying got steal his thunder, but even he will admit that we've all played Hero for so long that we don't remember what its like to look at the rules for the first time. So this thread is intended to allow some beginners to give some input into what kind of product they'd like to see. What would be the most helpful to you for learning the rules for the first time?

I don't mean to be rude, but a book like that wouldn't be for you. It would be for newbies. An intro book is for intro players. "Champions Begins" or "Fantasy Hero Begins" would be designed to introduce a new group of players to the Hero System in a bite-sized fashion. You don't need that because you've been playing for years.

 

A Fantasy Hero setting that had monsters, and magic spells, and cool world background, has to 1) catch the interest of prospective players, and 2) present the rules in a way that doesn't turn people off. We haven't had a book like that yet. Since it would be written in the Hero System, you wouldn't wven need to see the nuts and bolts of it to be able to change things.

 

If you saw "3D6 killing, area effect 8m, Target gets half defenses, casting time one turn, requires speaking and arm movements, requires material components", you'll know what that is. You'll be able to see the man behind the curtain, so to speak. But there's no need for a new player to have to see all that stuff yet.

This is more like what I'm talking about. It's not that I want to eliminate rules. I want to present the basic rules so that new players can have a fun new experience, and then want to learn more.

I remember the Basic D&D set (the little red book), and it was perfect. It was simple, only a few choices, and then an adventure or two. And then came the Expert set, and more rules. The first module I remember was The Keep on the Borderlands, which added a few more rules as it introduced the setting. Plenty of adventures there. And by the time Advanced D&D came out, I was hungry for more rules! This is the path that I want to try to recreate for Fantasy Hero.

So easy first-builds would have some class and race templates, some skill sets, a magic system and spells (without all the Hero arcana . . . yet), and a setting for some first adventures. Every step of the way would document where to look for more rules and examples in the other books, but in an unobtrusive way that can be ignored for a while until the rules begin to make sense. Then curiosity will lead new players into the larger ruleset.

There is variation within it, but firstly that variation is greatly reduced compared to Hero. A 10th level wizard might have higher or lower hit points than average, but they'll be within a reasonably predicatable margin. Secondly it doesn't really matter if there are outliers so long as you know they are outliers. If somebody can say "30hp is very low for 5th level fighter" then the problem has actually been solved because the problem isn't someone having low hit points for a fighter (at least the problem we're discussing isn't), it's someone building a character, faced with a sea of points costs for different abilities and not knowing if they've spent a lot of points on Body, not enough points on Body, etc.

This is what my buddy struggled with. Apart from the starting values, he was lost with regard to what was "good," what was "great," etc. He understood he couldn't be great at everything, but he couldn't even grasp what "good enough" was yet. Of course, that's an experience issue, but perhaps some examples would help.

I'm coming to the conclusion that Hero is a great system, but needs some newbie-friendly context and power guide front and centre. Maybe that can be separated out into "Complete" books so that you maintain a programmer's reference and "powered by..." duality. That would probably actually be good business because I can well see people buying one of the Completes and then getting the Hero books for more depth and customization. Or maybe it should be in the core books. I don't know. The advantage of doing it in genre-specific books is that you can fine tune the examples beautifully. Imagine the Damage Class table with examples alongside the levels saying things: "soldier's sword-blow, bite from a tiger", "kick from a horse, an ogre's club", "the firebreath of an ancient dragon". And over in the Hero Modern book you have "a kitchen knife", "heavy pistol", "high powered rifle", "anti-tank missile" and such.

​The "powered by Hero" idea is interesting and has come up several times in other threads. I like that. I also am thinking of a skin that can be used to translate the material in a very basic way, as an introduction to Fantasy Hero. Like a first step into the larger world of Fantasy Hero Complete, which is also another step into the larger world of HERO System core rules. 

I honestly don't think it would actually take that much. The rules system is elegant and consistent. People just need a starting point because there's so much of it. Even just a front page introduction something like the following might be a big help:

 

"Welcome to Hero. Hero is a system that can support many different levels of play and infinite genres. You can build anything with it from a character that can throw (and take) a punch, to a godlike being that can hurl bolts of plasma with their bare hands. In many places in the rules you'll see values for damage, endurance, a character's strength and so forth. Because Hero supports a wide range of play, it's good to know what these numbers mean in context. Take a look at the tables on page XX and YY to get a feel for this."

 

Or it could be at the start of character creation (which might be better). But anyway, just a thought.

​I like this too. I'm thinking lots of this kind of summary and reference would help. Would it be better as an introductory few pages giving an overview of all the terminology, or is it better to give it at it comes up, understanding that some terminology hasn't been covered yet? What do you think would be the most useful presentation of something like this?

To add to this discussion, I will talk about the areas that I personally struggled with (and in some cases am still a little hazy).To be clear I own Fantasy Hero Complete, I purchased the PDF from here.

 

* Damage Class. I read about Killing Damage and Normal Damage and resistances to that damage (physical defenses against Normal Damage, resistant defenses against Killing Damage). That wasn't too hard to grasp. But as some point in the book it started talking about DCs and seemed to skip the process of converting from DC -> Killing or Normal Damage (1DC = 1D6 Normal Damage, 1DC ~= 1/3 D6 but not really...; or 3DC = 1D6 Killing Damage if I remember correctly). I actually didn't figure that out, assuming I have it right, until searching the forums and reading about other people asking about it.

 

* Calculating the cost of powers. This was a big one, the rules in FHC do not seem very clear in many cases. Active Points = ( Base + Adders ) x (1 + total of add advantages ); Real Points = Active Points / (1 + total of all limitations). Now figuring out exactly what the Adders, Advantages and Limitations are turned out to be more tricky than I would have expected. To compound the problem the formula isn't super easy to find, even when I knew where to look.

 

Honestly that's it for me. Combat seems clear, its a bit different from Gurps - mainly in the way turn order occurs and how speed is handled - but its not bad. It seems to me that Damage types and Powers are so critical to the system that the book needs a lot more examples and it really needs to make the wording itself much clearer.

 

That said I am going to use the system for my next campaign because I wind up building the world, culture and customizing the system for my games anyway - with Hero that customization is really emphasized. So my criticisms are not towards the system itself but rather the documentation.

Hi ArcaneArchitect. Thanks for your input! I really am hoping we can get some more beginner involved in this so I can figure out what needs to be included in a beginners' guide. 

The Damage Classes thing is something that is based on Active Points, which is how they are defined in FHC 183, but unless you see the chart that usually goes with this in other books, it's hard to grasp. DCs for Normal Damage are generally in d6. DCs for Killing Damage are in increments of thirds of a die (1d6, 1d6+1, 1 1/2 d6, etc.).

Also, unless you totally understand how the powers work with Active Points, the DC stuff sounds like gobbledygook! So learning the powers is a huge hurdle for newbies. As you say, they are essential to the HERO System, but they are hard to wrap your head around as a beginner. And the info is spread all over the place so that, unless you're used to how Hero lays its book out, you feel a little lost. Or a lot lost.

Which is why I started this thread. I'd like to come up with some sort of skin for Fantasy Hero to act as an introduction, in very basic form, for beginners. I'm thinking templates for classes and races, a simple magic system with pre-generated spells without the power-build information (although with plenty of references to other books to help facilitate the transition to building them yourself), a weapons and equipment list, and a basic setting that can be easily added to. 

Then whole idea is to help create characters in a very short time, and then a handful of encounters in the setting to get everyone going as quickly and easily as possible. What do you think of this kind of idea? What do you see as the essential information that absolutely must be presented (and what can be cut for a basic introduction). I'm curious what a beginner who is still wrestling with Fantasy Hero Complete thinks about these things.

Welome, and thanks for your input!

Now if we look at the same situation with a dagger that does 1d6 killing damage (and for the moment we will ignore if Strength gives any bonuses).  The average roll for Body will be 3 Body and if we are using hit locations to calculate Stun then most likely the hit location will be the chest so that would result in 9 Stun.  Because our normal person isn't wearing any resistant clothing/armor (t-shirt and jeans), their 2 Physical Defense will not protect the character.  They will take 9 Stun and 3 Body directly.  If they were wearing a leather jacket and it gave 1 resistant physical defense then they would only take 6 Stun (2 PD + 1 resistant PD) and 2 Body (1 resistant PD applies).

This is a great summary, but there is one thing to correct (I think): PD still applies to Stun, even in Killing Attacks. The character would take 3 Body and 7 Stun in this example. There is a long explanation with examples on HS6e2 page 103.

But is that a problem? Or simply a niche? I love Hero precisely because it's the only RPG that really gives me the freedom to design whatever wacky shit my players & I dream up. I recognize that makes it intimidating for newbies, and I agree that some "Powered By Hero" type books that focus more on presenting the sausage and less on detailing 137 different ways to make sausage is going to have broader appeal. But anything that loses the open-ended toolbox is going to lose me. You don't have to lead with the full toolbox; you can be smarter about how you present the toolbox; but personally I still want access to the whole kit in one place.

 

And while whining about the lack of good settings/campaign books for Hero is a popular pastime here, let's also acknowledge that most of the setting/campaign books Hero has published haven't sold worth crap. We can relive the many different reasons why that is - I don't think we've had that argument yet in 2017. But the reality is that if we (collectively) don't buy the settings Hero puts out, it's hard to blame Hero for not putting out more of them.

Don't worry! Keep in mind, I started this thread with the idea that beginners are having a hard time learning all the rules. I don't want to replace the rules, I just am looking for a way to re-skin them for beginners to learn in a very quick and easy way. The powers, while making HERO awesome, are also overwhelming. My buddy's face literally went blank when he hit that part of the book. I tried to explain that everything in the game is built with the powers (monsters, spells, weapons, etc.), and he hit a wall. He understands it in principle, but really just wanted some easier baby steps to help ease him into the game. 

As a GM, I know that's my job, and as you say this is an ongoing argument. What I'm interested in is not whether the rules are good (they are), but what are some of the things newbies are looking for to help simplify the learning process. I'm really just looking for a first step to encourage them to then want to go on and learn more about he powers and how the building process works. The idea is not to dump the toolbox, but rather strip things down for a Fantasy Hero Beginner (as someone else has called it) to act as a way into the toolbox. My plan is to come up with something that will reference the larger rulebooks, and ease a transition into the larger world of HERO System.

Speaking of font, is there a way to change the default settings for these forums?

I think the rulebook would benefit from showing the difference there can be between a sheet for designing/building a character and a sheet for playing one in-game.  many of the folk on here want the builds visible as it provides them with good knowledge of what is possible but I think most new people want only the absolutely necessary information like what I roll for damage and how much END it takes to use it (as well as the cool descriptive stuff that bring home the game).

 

If you are not careful you will set me off on my hobby horse of the character sheet being the game's GUI for players.

 

Doc

This would not be a bad thing. Your hobby horse pops up in different threads and is one of the many reasons I have started considering this issue. In fact, my buddy looked through the download section of herogames and found an Excel version of the character sheet that did all the calculations for him and he immediately gravitated toward that. 

I tried to let him use my HeroDesigner and that went right out the door. It's too wide open. Even after I spent the better part of a week building prefabs and templates, it really didn't help him at all. I purchased the FH6 character pack, and it didn't help either. I think maybe he's a pen and paper guy all the way (so am I). Some of the exports for HD simulate the stripped-down needs of a character sheet, but they each have their own problems and I don't really want to spend the time coming up with a different layout. I new paper character sheet, as you point out, seems to be in order. Characteristics, skills/perks/etc., spells, equipment, and the hit location chart should be right there. I can't believe they got rid of that chart in the new character sheet!

I think it may be another issue you've brought up, or at least it is another similar issue, but the presentation of the material really needs​ to have a fantasy feel. Character sheet, images in the book, even  the font should all help set the mood. The original Fantasy Hero, IIRC, used a sword for section breaks. It's simple little things like that that help set the mood. That's a small complaint, but to the eyes of a new customer, this is why they picked up the game in the first place: they want to play a game that feels like fantasy. This is partly why I'm so disappointed with Fantasy Hero Complete as a product (not as a concept). 

Being one of the people whose frustration spawned this thread, I'd just like to say that despite my frustration I have found the willingness of people to help on these forums unsurpassed and as I remarked in the other - question threads are like icebergs. You only see the complaint and not all the respect someone may also have for other parts of the system. Hero is impressive and rigorously thought out and I'd like to say that up front.

Ah, yes, now we're getting down to business. Thank you! This is what I'm looking for.

​I'm not going to respond to the rules issues (Martian Logic, et al). As you rightly point out, this is how the game was built, and is a separate consideration. I'm looking for how we can better translate the game, as it is, to new folks who want to learn.

#3 No rocks to cling to.

Look at D&D 4e or 5e. You open the book and you see a bunch of classes. And they all have levels. Almost immediately you have a feel for what is powerful and what is not, what someone is good at and what someone is bad at. Open the Monster Manual and what do you see? Goblins are Challenge Rating 1, Dragons are Challenge Rating 15. And so on... Before anyone reaches for their keyboard to say how classes and levels aren't how Hero works, I know that. And I'm not advocating them per se. What I'm doing is highlighting that D&D provides context, familiarity. Put simply you have a picture of the completed jigsaw on the box. Hero doesn't because by design it is a "make the picture you want" jigsaw. Which is a tremendous strength and advantage. But how do you get that tremendous advantage without inviting the flipside which too much freedom gives? Here's a fact: The most useful thing in the 6e entire books I found when I was trying to understand it all the other day, was 6e. vol1, pg. 35. To save anyone looking it up that's the table labelled "Character Ability Guidelines" that says what a normal person has in OCV, DC, Char, etc.

 

I want to repeat that because I think it's both surprising and important. The most useful thing to me in understanding the rules wasn't the basic concepts section or the introduction to Powers or the Character Creation guidelines. It was a table showing what values actually meant.

​This is a great way to describe what my buddy was struggling with. He said almost exactly these same things when we spent Christmas looking through the books and stuff. His reaction was, "Where are some charts for me to look at?" My answer was, well, here's one, there's another one elsewhere, look in the back of the book for another, and the Damage Class chart isn't in Fantasy Hero Complete at all, so I'll grab a different book for you to look at. 

He wanted to look at charts to ground himself, and I think this is a very valuable insight you have presented. It's not that the terms all fit together, but how they fit together that is puzzling. In all honesty, Older character sheets used to include starting characteristics so that players could look at what is "standard" for a beginning player. This one little fact is so intuitively useful, and it's been removed from the later edition character sheets. And when I gave him an equipment list to play with (from Fantasy Hero 6), he could see weapons and how they fit in, and then things started to click a little more.

As for balance, I think you bring up an interesting problem: how do we actually see​ game balance. Those of us raised on D&D are used to looking for levels, classes, and such. But in all honesty, when I picked up D&D 5e last spring (after a long hiatus from AD&D), my mind was squirming just as much. DC? What happened to my thief's skills? How many bonus actions do I get? I jumped in with both feet and learned as I went. D&D makes that easy. But I immediately saw all these unbalancing things going on: cunning actions, bonus actions, things like that, gave some players lots of actions, and I got to shoot one measly arrow and then wait for next turn. Each game will have these issues.

But to come back around to Fantasy Hero, the points are how we compare and show game balance. This needs to be emphasized more, I think, in the introduction to Hero System. To go back to your Zen-like exercise, it seems to me that the best way to clear the mind up front is to intentionally and explicitly clear out levels, classes, etc., and drive home the point system. This is the primary reason I switched from D&D: I didn't want the constraint of classes. Plus the combat is so much more fun for creative players.

So, familiarity is needed, which as has been pointed out, requires a stable setting in which to present the rules. So that seems to be my first step: create a basic, standard setting, and then explain the standard fantasy tropes in that context. In addition, it seems that putting the charts up front gives some of that feel for the game on first view. They shouldn't be hidden in the back of the book in appendices. 

Thanks for your input. Give me more! 

I think, honestly, that's a big part of our (Hero System's) problem.

 

I mean, thinking that gamers in general (as opposed to those of us who are already fans of Hero) WANT to be able to do things like create their own spells.

 

 

To borrow a metaphor, I think most players want to open up a menu and find a tasty but limited selection of delicious flavors of sausage (not too many or it will be too hard to choose,) not be led into a kitchen full of ingredients and invited to make their own sausage. Or maybe even they just want to find "sausage" on the menu.

 

Now I think of it, this is a very useful metaphor. Because now I can say that the way Power builds are presented could be compared to printing every recipe of every dish on the menu.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I enjoy creating a brand new palindromedary tagline with every single post I make. But how many people actually do something like that?

Yes! This! This is exactly what I'm talking about!  A list of spells and their effects is infinitely more useful to a beginner than how it is built. That's more advanced stuff, and is the eventual goal of players who really love the system, but as far as simplicity and ease of use, including the "recipe" with each character, spell, weapon, etc. is just information overload! When newbies see all the crazy modifiers and the different kinds of calculations going on, it seems to be a real turnoff. If I can hide much of it for beginners, I think it would be especially useful!

I guess the thread can be summed up in nutshell as "but which one is right?"

 

What do people do? What is normal usual? If I make fireballs Killing Damage will my game become very lethal?

I think the basic gist of what everyone is saying is that, if you match the Damage Classes, damage will be similar. It just depends on what you want to emphasize in the campaign (gritty realism or golden age of comics?). The other consideration is what kind of defenses do you see being used in your game. Lots of armor? Killing damage is more important. Street clothes? Normal damage is less lethal. The game is built to use both, but you can choose one or the other if you want for simplicity's sake. I always use both (so you don't have someone trying to stab a door open: see below).

One other intuitive example that may help: A knife works great on a person, but it's lousy for busting through a door. My impression has always been that the game is trying to simulate these two kinds of situations with its two kinds of damage. They are both integrated to work together in a game through the use of Damage Classes. This keeps everything (mostly) balanced.

I don't know whether I have a preference per se for whether I want the game to be more or less lethal. I certainly want a reasonable chance for people to die, I don't want them having to all roll up new characters because I misjudged how many goblins to put in an encounter by two. I like the idea of having stun damage, I'm just wary of the complexity and some of the examples don't make sense to me - e.g. a fireball example someone gave earlier of being Normal Damage when I would think being burnt is far more likely to do physical damage than to knock someone out. So I'm keeping both options on the table for now, I guess.

As far as this goes, think of the fireball as an explosion (although there are a lot of different ways to build it). It's the impact and the knock back (another game element) that does the damage. You can make it a killing blast if you'd like, or you can add advantages to make the damage continue through burning, but those are all different considerations regarding the basic attack: a blast. Remember that the special effects are a description of the blast, so a lightning bolt, fireball, or gale-force wind all do the same kind of "Normal" Damage. You can fiddle with the finer effects to suit your need.

​As for the goblins, it's a really useful aspect of this game that with a points-build approach you can always generally balance the players with their foes. A party with 600 total points would do well against a single 600 point monster, a group of 10 100-point normal humans, or whatever. This is the reason why I love the Hero System. Game balance is always one of the prime considerations! Players may try to find a way to min-max the rules, but you have a whole group of active forums here where really good and creative rule-hawks can help you figure out particular answers!

I don't have the fantasy hero book, but one thing I can note from other of the genre books is that, unlike most games, Hero might be best presented as things like stats and dice rolling conventions first, THEN the combat system, then skills, powers, the stuff to build with.

 

Putting character creation before the play part of the system mistakenly gives the impression that combat is as complex as character creation, and may send some people running for checkers.

If I do actually design something, I'll probably leave out the powers altogether. For a fantasy setting, the spells are what matter and they can be presented in a pre-packaged way.

I do like your idea of inverting the presentation, with combat first. I know that one of the things that my buddy was confused about was what role each characteristic had in combat. If you don't know what OCV or PD is, you don't know if you've created a character with good or bad characteristics. If you teach the combat first, it naturalizes the other stuff. Of course, teaching combat without first discussing the characteristics may be a bit tough as well. . . . As with most of these issues, it's a chicken-egg problem.

There is a quick character generation section in Champions 5e which is really interesting. It seems they do a great job of fleshing out the archetypes, and then use them to make quick character generation possible. I think this has some interesting possibilities in fantasy, since many of the archetypes are pretty standard, and the races offer a second layer of variability.

I saw that High Rock Press is going to produce Champions character creation cards, and this seems like a really cool idea for beginning characters who don't need to see how the sausage is made. Just mash up some things and get them playing as soon as possible. Let them explore the combat system and other mechanics by playing them, and then let them dig further into the character creation.

Magic systems are a funny thing about Hero... In most table top RPGs the Magic System is fairly hard coded into the system, and new campaign settings often have to shoehorn themselves in around the existing magic system. Meanwhile, every single campaign setting I've read, or campaign I've played in in Hero has had a different magic system. Everyone has their own opinion on how it should be done, and Fantasy Hero​ (the Genre Source book, not to be confused with Fantasy Hero Complete​, the rulebook) literally has a half a dozen or more viable and completely different Magic Systems.

The magic systems! I know you've seen a few of my posts about magic. Sooooo many options! So what I'd like to do is create a really simple magic system (like a skill-based system) and leave it at that. As you say, I'd just hard-code it into the setting, and then offer spells from the HS Grimoire in a very boiled down way, and call it good for the first campaign. This makes it easy for the GM, and then perhaps everyone would be ready to explore more detailed character creating, etc.

Monster Hunters is the only product of its kind for the Hero System, and sadly, it ought to be the template by which all Hero products are shaped but isn't. I mean, it's fine and all to have a comprehensive reference document that describes the whole system in all its minute glory, but apart from that, there should only be setting-based product lines (like MHI) that provide books full of setting/campaign material and lots of pre-built character examples, templates, magic systems, creatures, gear, etc. so that players can get started more or less right away.

 

But this is not the operating philosophy of Hero Games, and so you're pretty much on your own when it comes to putting together the sort of material you need. You've come to right place though. If there is any material that can help you, the folks here can point you to it. Just don't expect it to have an official Hero Games logo on it, or have any sort of stable on-going product development like you'd find for D&D or Pathfinder.

I'm trying to build it myself, but I also want to do it in a way that might also help other people. Really, I think everyone ought to be playing Hero games, but there's just not good ways to get them into it unless they're already invested somehow. Fantasy Hero Complete is really more like a recap summary for experienced players. It doesn't give newbies what they really need: a setting and some starting points. Seriously, what new player would read that book and then feel prepared to create an entire world for players to play in?! It's intimidating enough to create a character for the first time, imagine trying to do that for every NPC, villain, monster, etc.?!

As you say, I'm on my own here, but think maybe this can become a group project if we can figure out the core basics that a newbie needs to get started. I'm hoping we actually can get some newbies into this conversation!

Regarding Layout issues you encountered: The base values for each characteristic are listed in the first line of the description of each characteristic. For example, on FHC 17:

Strength (STR)

  Base Value:  10

  Cost:  1 CP per +1 STR

Heh, I don't know how that escaped my attention. That's a big DUH on my part. Thanks for pointing it out.

Speaking of Keep on the Borderlands; this page has a pretty decent 6th edition conversion:  http://alphawolf10.wixsite.com/kestrelarts2/module-conversions

I've seen this as well. I actually grabbed it and planned on using it on our first adventure, but never got through the character creation process. I'd like to create something similar to this with the rules included in a stripped down version.

I pretty much agree with you.  That's partly why I wrote my How to Play HERO System document, linked in my signature.

That's a great writeup. I've seen it before, but it didn't occur to me to direct my friend to it. It's a good overview of the whole system!

Eventually, sadly its gonna take years, I plan on releasing a player and GM 2-book fantasy hero rules set for my campaign setting that I hope will have stripped down and simplified rules for the players to make stepping into the game easier.  The plan is to make a "Powered by Hero" setting presented as if it is a game on its own, and people can get the real Fantasy Hero book to get the full version of all the rules.

I was thinking of the same thing. Sort of like a Players Handbook for new players. There was something about opening up the original AD&D Players Handbook for the first time and diving right into creating characters. Lots of charts and stuff, and lists of weapons and equipment! It was enough to get me hooked, even after playing the Basic rules. On the other hand, I'm not sure there's much of a need for a GM Guide, because that's basically what the other rule books are for (I'm assuming, of course, that the GM is going to be more experienced. This may not be a fair assumption).

But the "Powered by Hero" is exactly what I was thinking. I like the way that Monster Hunters International has that sort of plug-n-play feel to it. It seems like this approach can be used for lots of settings, and as a beginner product it could really help people overcome the rules-overload.

I think a tutorial intro to the game would be a big help.  We're talking about doing that with Champions, and I plan on doing it for Fantasy Hero.  It probably will end up actually being a reskin inspired by Keep on the Borderlands, to be honest.  One part is already out (Two Kings Keep) but that's not the intro.

 

The more I think about it the more I like this super simplified, spoon-fed way of getting players into the hobby, because we're not the same culture we were in the late 70s when D&D hit.  We have to adapt to the customers, not demand they adapt to us.

I have Two Kings Keep, and plan on using it a little later. I have several of the scenarios you created, and enjoy them and will definitely use them. I hadn't made the connection to The Keep On The Borderland, but that makes perfect sense.

But as you say, I'm thinking that a very basic tutorial is the way to go. I'm thinking of an approach like this in a brief players handbook:

• Here's the world you're in (very locally outlined with maybe a larger map to suggest future adventures). Explain the economics, culture, and the equipment and weapons available.
• A few hooks for adventures (you meet at a tavern and hear several rumors, etc. etc.).
• Here's the character archetypes to choose from (fighter, thief, etc.): pick one.
• Here's the races in the world: pick one.
• Here's how magic works (in a very basic way: maybe a skill-based system to start off).
• Here's a list of spells (costs only, and not the build information).
• ​Pick some skills, grab some weapons and equipment and let's play.

​I think that at every step of the way other books can be referenced, such as the HS 6e1 & 6e2, Grimoire, Bestiary, Equipment Guide​, etc., without needing them to be on hand to play at first. But if I can use stuff from existing books, players won't have to "re-learn" anything as they expand their grasp of the game. If I use monsters from the Bestiary, spells from the Grimoire, and the equipment list form Fantasy Hero 6, I can use them as the core rules that will be constant through all game settings.

​The more I can hide the intricacies at first, and just promote playing and having fun, then curiosity will draw people into wanting to learn the mechanics in more detail. As much as Fantasy Hero Complete is intended to be a learn & play book, it's still too complex for a newbie to feel like he can start right away. The powers section alone is enough to overwhelm anyone, and leave them feeling lost. My buddy's head just about blew up when he hit this section. I tried to tell him he didn't really need to know it, but he didn't feel like he could "know" the system without knowing that. In this case, I think less information is actually better. The GM should know these things, of course, but beginning players don't need to know the build for an invisibility cloak: he just wants to put it on and sneak around.

So I have a few problems with trying to teach Fantasy Hero Complete to new folks. I am tying to teach a buddy FHC, and he's been gaming for decades, but there are some problems cropping up. I'd like to get some feedback from sone newbies, or anyone else, who can see the problems with learning the system from an "outsider's" point of view. My buddy's point is that the new FHC is written with the intention of teaching new people, but it is written and presented in a way that is useful to Hero System veterans, not newbies.

1. First off, in all honesty, it's horribly edited. I can find at least one typographical error on virtually every page, which is really bad form for what is supposed to be the new face for Fantasy Hero. I want to recommend a product I am proud of, and this falls short. This is, of course, a different issue which has been discussed elsewhere. The aesthetics of this book don't really give a fantasy feel in its presentation either.
2. The rules are obviously boiled down versions of the larger sourcebooks. For people who are experienced with the rules, this is a great summary to work with, but for my friend they were hard to understand. He noticed right away that, without examples (which were intentionally removed to save space) the rules were really dense. 
3. The layout of the text is not exactly intuitive. From my friend's perspective, he wanted to learn how to make a character. Here is what he found, and didn't find:
   1. ​​He found characteristic maxima tucked away on page 24, but couldn't find beginning values (hidden away in the appendix on page 252!).
   2. Templates are mentioned on page 12, which is what he was looking for, but there is no reference to where they are available (page 202-211). From an experienced gamer's perspective, he wanted to have some sort of suggestions to work from, and felt like he was floating in the game mechanics without any sort of reference point.
   3. He wanted to see what equipment was available, etc. This isn't available in the Equipment chapter (p. 188), but it tucked away on the last page of the book before the Appendices (p. 248)! Again, this was off-putting because none of it was intuitive.
4. ​As discussed in this thread  http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94634-newbie-question-non-killing-damage-is-normal/   my buddy had a hard time understanding the damage in FHC. We sorted it out in time, but I realized that, while Damage Classes are nominally explained on page 183, there is no chart comparing normal damage to killing damage. The definition uses Active Points to explain the two kinds of damage, but the Damage Class chart offered in other texts is an essential tool for understanding how they work. I mean, there is absolutely nothing intuitive about a 5DC killing damage attack when all that is defined is that 3DC is 1d6. There's no way for a beginner to understand this.
5. The powers are mind boggling to my friend. In all honesty, he doesn't need to know the build for each thing (weapons, spells, talents, etc.). It is just too overwhelming for him. Is there a way to mediate the information overload? He doesn't need to see how the sausage is made at the beginning. 

​I don't want this first post to get too long, so I'll keep it brief. Please add your observations on how the book appears to new eyes. What is expected, what are the impediments, what would make it better?

I'm asking all of this because I'd like to create some sort of introductory text for newbies. Something between the Hero in 2 Pages document and Fantasy Hero Complete. For example, I love how Monster Hunters International​ is laid out. It is different than other Hero System books because it defines the setting first, before the character creation. I realize, however, that there is a very strictly defined setting for those rules, and that Fantasy Hero Complete is intentionally more generic. But are there some things that can be presented as standard beginning material (like a magic system, for example!) that give a new person a feel for the new system?  What are the basic tropes that everyone expects to see when they open a fantasy book that can be taken as a baseline for a new game setting/rule book introduction? 

Some of you may remember the old Basic D&D classic module, The Keep on the Borderlands​. It was simple, generic, but also introduced the players to new rules and things as it also introduced their first scenario. I'd like to create something kinda like this. What would you like to see in it, and what should be included? What is the order of importance for introducing the material? 

Welcome!

So this thread basically is an exact replica of a conversation with my buddy a couple of weeks ago. We have a combined gaming experience of decades, beginning with D&D. He drank the KookAid on Pathfinder, which I never got into, and he is very deeply conversant with all the intricacies of gaming, skill trees, and all that kind of stuff.

But he just couldn't understand the damage in Fantasy Hero Complete​. It took me at least an hour of continuous examples and explanations just like in this thread. He finally got it, and looked back on it and realized it wasn't all that hard. It is just a very different way of looking at combat. AC and HP are all you need in D&D, but he could't wrap his head around different kinds of damage, the role of PD and rPD, etc. This thread should be a tutorial for anyone learning the system!

With that being said, I'm going to start a new thread about problems for newbies learning the system. I'd love your input on this. It should be coming in a day or two, and I'd love to get everyone's feedback on this, especially people who are new to the system.

*Edit: Here's the thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/  Please give me some ideas of what it's like to look at the book for the first time, and what could help ease the learning curve.

You are all overthinking this issue.  It is not about the how its about what you want.  If you want to limit how a character changes spells or how many active spells a character can have at one time, implement it as a campaign rule.  For instance you can say a character can only have INT/5 spells active at one time and only can have Int/3 spells selected without spending time to switch spells. The character can build the spells under multipower, pool or individual powers.  He could not pay for any spells and use a magic skill instead.  None of that would change the campaign rule of active spells at one time or how many spells he can use at any given time.

Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to guess you haven't read all of the previous 100 responses (who would?!), but what came out in the conversation is that I was trying to come up with a way with as few meta-rules or campaign-rules as possible. I was looking for a magic system strictly within the confines of the rules as written (RAW) so that it would be more consistent with the system, and hopefully make more sense for beginners trying to learn the system.

Have you looked at the Twelfth Planet series of books? It's more historical, but his discussion of the ancient gods ranging from the Sumerians to the Egyptians and Greeks would be good material.

Out of curiosity, in a metal-poor world with more primitive weapons and armor, are you planning on more detailed martial arts systems, perhaps regionally varied? It seems like that would be the first place people would go if they can't get good weapons.

I can't wait for Danger International! I loved this when it originally came out!