Brian Stanfield

The character using Healing can still Heal up to the maximum shown on the dice, but the halving effect still limits how much total STUN and BODY the target regains.

I don't get this at all. You can heal up to the maximum, but the halving effect is still in effect? Wouldn't that be only half the maximum?

The question was in fact asked during the SETAC discussions (by me, actually) and the answer was a resounding YES.

Out of curiosity, what are the SETAC discussions?

Healing Potion

This potion takes effect at the end of the Turn in which it is consumed. Roll 3d6: On any roll up to 14, the character regains 15 STUN, 15 END, and 3 BOD. On rolls of 15 and over, only 10 STUN, 10 END, and 2 BOD are regained. This is IN ADDITION to the normal recovery everyone gets at the end of a Turn and only restores these scores to full starting value; a character who had only taken 1 pt of BOD damage for example could only regain 1 pt of BOD.

 

 

Which hopefully would be useful. The prospective new player needs to know "drink this, wait to end of Turn, get these benefits." They don't need to know it's a "Focus" in game terms or on "Charges" - they already know it's a potion so they intuitively understand it's in a bottle, it can be stolen or broken, it can only be used the once, etc.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

seriously just because we know a palindromedary is possible doesn't mean it's mandatory to have a palindromedary in the starter kit.

I think perhaps that your original post was misinterpreted as being an ernest attempt at presenting a healing potion. I took it to be an over-the-top, humorous example, although it was a little lost in the context of the longer post.

This makes it much clearer what you intended, and thank you. This is exactly an example of what I'm looking for: the powers can be "hidden" yet still be intuitively understood for future application.

In all honesty, I was thinking of actually using spells from the HS Grimoire by their given names, but without all the build information. So to address Cantriped's concern, although a beginner might not actually be learning the powers, if they're directed to the Grimoire they can look those spells up and learn about how to actually build things with the powers. But this should be a next-level concern for a beginning player. If the over-simplified beginning stuff is still consistent with the more advanced, official RAW, then they won't have to re-learn terminology, etc. They'd apply their intuitive first use of spells to their study of how power builds work.

Thank you Contrived for making this point in this and other posts. It really is important, as you point out, to not convolute things with "baby terminology" that then has to be re-learned in the larger rulebooks. I can't find the other threads right now, but they are bring up good points!

*Edited: accidental duplicate post

In the Hero discussion page, there is a thread about what a new edition needs in which a number of us brainstormed on the concept of a powered by hero approach in which the system was used to make games, and in which descriptions would follow the sort of format the steriaca posted above for the lightning spell.

 

Within, a member actually came up with a fairly effective way to work dispels in when we were talking about spell levels and dispels. We favored making dispels for different levels and assume that they were bought at standard effect, so that all rolls would be assumed to be threes(5D6 being 5 threes).

 

Part of our rationale for 'powered by hero' was that purchases were all packages, prebuilt powers whose constructs were hidden, but could be found in supplementary material or online. The counter to the argument 'but they aren't learning the full hero system' was that it would be made clear that, if one understood the full system, one could build NEW things that would still be balanced within the sub-system.

 

Thus, players who did not immediately want the build complexity of Hero in their lives could be attracted to the game, given a taste, first a little lightning, then, when lightning no longer got them off, some knockback, and soon enough, they find themselves shaking if too long goes by without building a change environment.

 

We felt this was a better way than trying to convince people to play something they don't want to play or devote time they don't want to devote. Give the choice to play a game that does not take any longer than making simple characters in other systems, but the awareness that much more is possible, an option that is naturally attractive to GMs and players who want to mess with those GMs worlds.

 

The belief that convincing people to spend time they don't want to spend is an effective marketing strategy and then digging in one's heels and refusing to accept that what a significant portion of the market wants is entirely buildable by using the system to build a sub-system has not worked. It's not zero sum, it's not either or, both the die hard Hero building maniacs and the rank and file gamer can be drawn into the same fold.

Can you point me to that thread?

If you're interested in giving some more insight into what a newbie isn't seeing in the rules at first glance, here's another thread I started: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/

We're discussing what someone who is new to the Hero System might need more help with.

Part of our rationale for 'powered by hero' was that purchases were all packages, prebuilt powers whose constructs were hidden, but could be found in supplementary material or online. The counter to the argument 'but they aren't learning the full hero system' was that it would be made clear that, if one understood the full system, one could build NEW things that would still be balanced within the sub-system.

 

Thus, players who did not immediately want the build complexity of Hero in their lives could be attracted to the game, given a taste, first a little lightning, then, when lightning no longer got them off, some knockback, and soon enough, they find themselves shaking if too long goes by without building a change environment.

 

We felt this was a better way than trying to convince people to play something they don't want to play or devote time they don't want to devote. Give the choice to play a game that does not take any longer than making simple characters in other systems, but the awareness that much more is possible, an option that is naturally attractive to GMs and players who want to mess with those GMs worlds.

 

The belief that convincing people to spend time they don't want to spend is an effective marketing strategy and then digging in one's heels and refusing to accept that what a significant portion of the market wants is entirely buildable by using the system to build a sub-system has not worked. It's not zero sum, it's not either or, both the die hard Hero building maniacs and the rank and file gamer can be drawn into the same fold.

Yes. In fact, Fantasy Hero Complete keeps reminding the reader that many of the rules are optional and are not necessary to play the game right away. But in the midst of all that, in the middle of the character creation "chapter," is 100 freaking pages of powers and modifiers! Way too much information overload for a casual reader. And that's who I'm looking to hook with this document: the casual gamer who is looking for something different. There's no need to write yet another book for Hero gamers who already know the rules. This is about translating those rules for new folks who aren't invested in them yet. Handing them 100 pages of powers to wade through before they can even create a character is not really all that friendly (at least in my view).

Here's how I'd do that:

 

Lightning Bolt

Range: 150m        

END Cost: 3          Gestures: Yes

Active Cost: 30      Incantation: Yes

Magic Roll: -3        Concentrate: no

Focus: no              Casting Time: Half Phase

Effect: Attacks the target with a blast of electricity dealing 2d6 energy killing damage

 

Quick, to the point, familiar, all the info you need right up front.  Straight up and to the point, without any info the players don't need.  

 

And in fact if you said right up front "all spells take a half phase to cast, require incantations and gestures" with a small explanation, you wouldn't even need most of that block.  You could even get away with just "electrical 2d6 energy killing attack at range" and the GM could just decide if something is out of range if that comes up.  Good enough to get people through a single night's gaming.

 

Nice. Your last point is exactly what I'm trying to suggest. I don't hate the powers, and I'm not trying to completely gut the powers in Hero. They just don't need to be the centerpiece for a beginner because they are intimidating at best and impenetrable for a newbie at worst. This shouldn't be a substitute for a fully tooled Fantasy Hero game, it's just a little taste to pique a new player's interest. It doesn't need to be complete, or even thoroughly explained in detail. It only needs to be tasty enough to make them want to learn all the rest for themselves.

So, just in case you're interested, we have a larger conversation going on over here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/

I'm looking for some insight from new players just like yourself and what you find difficult to understand as a beginner, and how the rules can be translated better for you.

As for breaking things and dispels, the GM can handwave that for introductory adventures, or just not let things break yet.  Its the tutorial, it doesn't need any of that fancy stuff until people are comfortable with the system.

 

I'm kind of thinking through how the first adventure should go. Should it be classic (start with a barfight, get a map, travel to a strange place, go through rooms killing stuff, get the loot) or something more creative (start thrown into a pit, blindly work your way through a set of caves gaining equipment, then fight your way to civilization, or something like that)?  That is, would players enjoy it more as a really classic, comfortable plot or something really unique that sets it apart?

I like the starting blind and working your way out approach! That would take away many of the presuppositions anyone would naturally bring to a game. If you start in a tavern it would already entail all sorts of assumptions about who's there, who's fighting whom in the inevitable brawl, and why, etc. If you say "you wake up in a pit and you see three passages before you. What do you want to do?" it makes them deal with the immediacy of how the game plays.

I assume such a document would have a watered down description of how that specific spell worked. In practice such spells would look like D&D spells (which would help with familiarity). For example:

 

Lightning Bolt:  RKA 2d6 (vs. ED) (30 APs); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2). Total Cost:  ​15 points. (1f in a multipower)

 

Would become something like: 

 

​Lightning Bolt (1st level spell):​  With a wave of your hand, and a loud pronouncement, you call lightning from your fingertips to strike you foe. Make an Attack Roll, if you hit Lightning Bolt causes 2d6 Killing Damage versus the target's Energy Defense. Lightning Bolt has a range of 150m. Lightning Bolt cannot be cast while you are grabbed, entangled, or cannot speak, and casting this spell fails if you are struck while casting the spell.  Lightning Bolt costs 1 point as a spell, or 15 points as a spell-like ability.

 

Then somewhere earlier or later on you would then have to describe what spell levels are (an arbitrary value derived from Active Points), what spell-like abilities are (powers you buy outright), and what spells are (powers which you buy through a Multipower Reserve, which itself has been hidden behind a talent called "1st Level Spellcaster" or some thing like that).

 

Then a few weeks in you'd have an entire table of very confused players when the GM finally let them actually crack Fantasy Hero Complete​, and they couldn't find half of the terms or rules they'd been using since they "started playing Hero".

Although I see your point, I see it just the opposite. Your one-line description of lightning bolt scared the hell out of my buddy who was trying to learn powers-as-spells. Your second example is what he was looking for. At no point am I suggesting arbitrary levels, reserves, or anything like that. But if the second example is explained in such a way that a player can play with spells for a few weeks, then when he goes to the HS Grimoire to look it up it wouldn't be such a shock. When he then learns what the spell is built on, he'd be able to see how the powers and modifiers work together. 

This is all, of course, hypothetical. All I'm saying is that the other way of doing it is simply not working for some people I know. I don't have a lot of time to work with them through all the details, so I'm just looking for a baby-step to get them over the hump and wanting to learn more for themselves. As they say in the academic world, I'm trying to encourage self-directed learners with a very few easy steps to begin.

I'm not missing the point, you and I simply disagree regarding the design conceit of what new players need in a tutorial. I don't think hiding the game mechanics are going to actually help players understand how to play the game, quite the contrary. I think your approach will only teach new players how to play your tutorial, not how to play Hero System. The whole point of such a tutorial adventure is for new players to gain a firm grasp of the system's core principles and mechanics so that after the adventure is done and the GM has awarded XP, the players know what they need to know to actually spend it.

 

I can certainly agree that players don't need to know the active and real cost of a longsword to kill their first orc with it. But I don't see any benefit to leaving it out; we are literally talking about five characters which should easily fit into a tab sized column of a full page table regardless of its font size (unless you're using pt. 16 font or something). For example, "32/13" for a longsword. Those five simple characters can easily ignored until the GM and/or Player are more experienced and want to reverse engineer the longsword's mechanics so that they can buy a "+1 magic longsword", at which point those numbers become invaluable for double checking your work and learning actually the system. 

Since those numbers are all provided in more advanced form in other texts, for more advanced users, I think that Massey's point is that you don't need to give all those details that won't be used by a first-time Hero gamer. It's not for the purpose of creating a new game, or gutting the rules of Hero, but rather to simplify what is presented, with as few distractions as possible. The active points and such aren't really needed to purchase a sword for a character. All they need to know is that it does such-and-such damage. The rules for building weapons aren't needed at first, but of course a citation would be provided in FHC for those who want, and are ready, to learn more about this stuff. At which point they can look for the full build in Fantasy Hero Complete.

This is in no way a pronouncement that the Hero system is too complex for it's own good and needs to be saved from itself. Sorta. Beginners just aren't getting the rules as they are presented, so I suggested that maybe we should simplify how they are presented for first-timers. I think sometimes Hero gamers do in fact need to be saved from themselves because we are so used to seeing the whole system, and are used to seeing things in ways that new folks just can't see. My suggestion was that a presentation that is as simple as possible would be the best for beginners. 

Think of it this way: I teach an aikido class to people of all ability levels. I have to scale what I teach to 1) their experience level, 2) their ability level, and 3) their ability to comprehend what I'm teaching. I can't just throw them into a class without teaching them proper footwork, how to roll, fall down safely, etc. What I definitely, without a doubt, cannot do is treat the class as an advanced seminar on all the different applications of an array of advanced techniques. I'd lose them before they ever got the chance to want to learn more. Once they're ready I can work through those things with whomever is ready. Beginners aren't ready yet.

So what I'm talking about here, as a document, is that first night's "free class" to give new students the first inklings of what a class will be like. A beginner's document for Fantasy Hero, in the way I'm thinking, would be like that first class. It is excruciating for an experienced person, but a necessary first step for a total beginner.

I get that, but how are you going to play the spells if you don't include the descriptions for the relevant powers?

You don't need to. As Massey pointed out, I think that's a blind spot we all share as experienced HERO players. All that's needed for a fireball spell is to say "it does 6d6 normal damage, takes 1/2 phase to cast, with incantations and gestures, requires a power skill roll, and costs x amount of points." It could be summed up in a few lines of text, and presented ready to play. Perhaps at the end of the magic section you could give citations for the magic systems offered in other books, and nod to the powers that are used to build spells, but ultimately a first-time player doesn't care or even need to know that it's based on a Blast at 30 AP with such and such advantages and limitations. That's for the not-basic version of the game (Fantasy Hero Complete) that this is an introduction to. Once they learn how the spells work along with other aspects of game play they'll be ready and willing to learn the intricacies of how to build spells and more with the toolbox provided in the full books.

As for an Intro to Fantasy Hero, Massey has a great handle on this.  That, combined with a tutorial "intro to Fantasy Hero" adventure, some simple sample characters, and you've got a winner.  Put that out for free download like the Champions Begins one and we've got the start of a nice way to get people going into games.

 

Armed with these, Hero fans can go to their local game store and run introductory games like the AD&D one I played to learn RPGs back in the late 70s.

I agree. Massey has pretty much described exactly what I was thinking of. It's the FLGS and conventions that I'm thinking about here, as you point out, in addition to my poor friend who is having a hard time wrapping his head around it. I have several gaming groups I show up to, and it would be great to be able to hand them this stuff and get them up and running with pre-gem characters, which they're used to doing. 

A "Fantasy Hero In 15 Minutes" guide would be quite helpful for new players.  Get them to sit down and actually play the game without having to read more than a few pages.  You don't need to know how all the Powers work if all you want to do is climb walls, pick locks, and backstab somebody.  Combining that guide with a basic fantasy setting, some fantasy character classes, and some monsters would be a decent product.

 

Chapter 1 -- How the system works.  1 page.

Fantasy Hero is a game using the award-winning HERO System game mechanics.  In this book you'll find an introduction to the rules designed to get you playing as quickly as possible.  Characters in this game are constructed with a point value.  Different abilities cost different amounts of points.  The more points something is, the more powerful it is.  Characters who are made on the same numbers of points will be roughly equal in power level.  In this game, all the characters begin with 175 points to spend.  

 

Skills in this game are resolved by rolling 3D6, adding the numbers together, and trying to roll under a particular number, which will be listed next to your skill.  Joe wants to pick a lock, he rolls against his Lockpicking 12- skill.  He wants the total on all 3 dice to equal 12 or less.  The GM may assign modifiers if a task is particularly easy or hard.  Opposed skill rolls (such as sneaking past a guard) take place when two people are using opposing skills against one another.  The thief rolls his Stealth skill, the guard rolls his Perception.  Whoever succeeds by the biggest number prevails.  See the Skills section for more info.

 

Combat is resolved by rolling to-hit, and then rolling damage.  Attacking someone is handled like a skill roll, you roll 3D6 and want to roll low.  The base number for success is 11 or less.  Add your OCV (offensive combat value) to this number.  If you have a 6 OCV, your number needed to hit would be 17 or less.  A sure thing, right?  Not so fast my friend.  Now subtract your opponent's DCV (defensive combat value).  If their DCV is 4, then that reduces the number back down to 13 or less.  If their DCV is an 8, that reduces it to 9 or less.  This is the number you need to hit your opponent.

 

If you miss your opponent, he takes no damage.  If you hit your opponent, roll the number of dice listed beside your attack.  You want to roll as high as possible when doing damage.  Now take the total, and subtract your opponent's appropriate Defense.  The opponent takes whatever damage is left over.  A physical attack, like a punch, a kick, or a thrown rock, goes against your opponent's Physical Defense.  A mental blast goes against their Mental Defense.  An energy attack like a fireball goes against their Energy Defense.  The weapon or spell that you use will specify which type of Defense applies.  If your damage roll is lower or equal to your opponent's appropriate Defense, then they take nothing.  Hit harder next time.

 

You get a number of actions equal to your Speed characteristic.  If you have a Speed 3, you get 3 actions per turn.  If you have a Speed 4, you get 4 actions per turn.  These actions are spread throughout the turn, as seen on the Speed chart.  During combat, your GM will call out which "phase" or "segment" it is.  Your character will have which phases they act on written on the sheet.  If the GM calls your phase, then you get to go.  Within a phase, characters act in Dex order.  A guy with a 15 Dex, 3 Spd will act on segments 4, 8, and 12.  When the GM calls out "segment 4", he will get to act.  If someone else is also Spd 3, but has a 17 Dex, then that person gets to go before the person with the 15 Dex.

 

See the Combat chapter for more information, and see the list of maneuvers on the back page for modifiers and special types of attacks.

 

Chapter 2 -- Character creation.  3 pages.

Just have basic instructions on how many points the characters have, and that you get to pick and choose which abilities you want them to have.  You have 175 points.  Pick a stat block, pick a skill set, pick some special abilities, and you're good to go.  Let players know that the Hero System does not prevent mages from wielding battle axes, or fighters from casting spells.  But for this introduction, the choices have been simplified.  Include the cost for basic characteristics here.

 

 

Chapter 2a through 2j -- Character classes.  10 pages.

This has example characters, like thieves, fighters, rangers, and wizards.  Give the standard D&D classes, and throw in a weird one or two that D&D doesn't have, to try and catch their interest.  A Wyvern Rider or something like that would be cool.  One page for each character.  Have a basic stat block (Fighters, 15 Str, 12 Dex, 15 Con, 5 PD and ED, 3 Spd, etc), probably 60 points or so, so that they don't forget to buy something really important.  Have a basic skill block (+1 with all swords, Weaponsmith 11-, KS: Dungeons, KS: Orcs, Tactics, Stealth), 20 points.  And have a "special moves" section, where they pick two or three cool things that set them apart (Fighters, +1D6 killing attack with swords, some kind of counter-attack move, martial arts, etc), 20 points.  Now you've got 75 points left for the player to customize.  Refer them to the characteristics chart, the skills list, and the magic section.

 

Chapter 3 -- Combat. 6 pages.

This has a more fully fleshed out combat section.  It has a few examples so people get a better idea of how the game flows.  It talks about the difference between Stun damage and Killing damage.  It talks about taking Recoveries, being Stunned, being Knocked Out, and spending Endurance.  It has an example character sheet and explains what each part of the sheet means.  It has a few maneuvers (block, haymaker, grab, dodge), and talks about aborting an action.  It gives an easy to understand explanation of the Speed chart.  It leaves out things like Knockback, Power Defense, Hardened Defenses, and things that don't appear in the sample adventure.

 

Chapter 4 -- Skills.  3 pages.

Quick descriptions of fantasy genre skills, with an approximation of the length of time a skill roll requires (Stealth, 1/2 phase action.  Lockpicking, 1 turn, Spell Research, days?), and some common modifiers.

 

Chapter 5 -- Magic.  12 pages.

This includes an explanation of the magic system (which is really just a multipower put into easier to understand terms), and about 60 different spells, written up in normal language with a points cost given.  Some basic D&D spells should be included, as well as some stranger ones that Hero can do pretty easily.

 

Chapter 6 -- Equipment.  4 pages.

This has a big list of armor, weapons, things like that, written as simply as possible.  Go ahead and list the weapons' cost in gold pieces or whatever.  These don't cost points.

 

Chapter 7 -- Magic Items.  6 pages.

Magic swords, wands, things like that.  Characters can spend their 75 remaining character points on these if they want.

 

Chapter 8 -- Enemies.  20 pages.

A basic Monster Manual so that players can gauge who they're supposed to be fighting.  How tough is an orc?  What about a dragon?  A city guardsman?  It's all contained here.  3 or 4 monsters per page.

 

--

 

 

This should be a product that players can pick up, flip through, and then start playing the game.  Make a character in 5 minutes.  After a few sessions, they should have a pretty good handle on the system.  Then when they look at the Fantasy Hero Complete book, everything will start to make sense.  They'll have a frame of reference for it.  The intro book would cover what 90% of new players want.  It's not intimidating, it's not scary, it's clearly labeled and has a familiar layout.  You could hand this to a 10 year old, they'd be able to read through it and understand it.

Yup, this is pretty much what I'm talking about, and it comes in at 65 pages. It seems like it should be doable with only a little bit of work. Maybe find some art, or get permission to use Hero's art and charts and things. Why haven't you written this yet? Are you going to make me do it since I started this thread?!

Those old Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal boxed sets were excellent for their intended purpose.

 

What I'm currently working on is a drop-in replacement for D&D with a bit of side inspiration from the little-known but excellent Iron Heroes (a low-magic D20 game which had some fantastic variants on Fighter).

 

I'm doing four basic races as templates (human, elf, dwarf and goblin) and some core classes.

 

I could well see breaking it out into a Basic / Expert / Etc. model as a way of managing the size of the project. If I have some free time this weekend, I'll see what I can produce as a draft.

 

The website of KillerShrike linked to earlier is being collossally helpful and I'm using it as my lodestone for my own approach to it.

 

When I get something in draft form, I'll throw it up on OneDrive or something which makes it fairly easy to present and even collaborate if people are interested.

I ran out of likes for the day, so I'll just respond. Let us know what you come up with. I'm not going to re-write the rules any time soon, so for now simplified settings will be a good inroad for the game.

WoC has that basic box for D&D which also serves the same purpose as what their Basic box set used to do. They have the money to pull it off, and I realize something like that is not really possible. I'm thinking a longer .pdf would be doable, though.

Danger International managed it just fine.  Referred the gamer to Champions where Powers were needed.

My suggestion is similar, in the sense that the document I have in mind would reference Fantasy Hero Complete for a more, well, uh, "complete" explanation of how the powers work. As I said before, genuinely new players don't need to know how the sausage is made to have fun eating it on their first visit.

I see where you're coming from, but unfortunately I don't know if you can get away with taking the Powers description out of the book.  Even if you hide the math, an Entangle with Area Effect, Requires a Roll, and Obvious Accessible Focus--these all have in-game effects that can't be anywhere but the Powers section.  The best you could do would be to reorganize the entry for each Power such that the game effects are on top and the costs and specific modifiers are on the bottom, but I don't know how much space that'd save.  Taking out Powers means a campaign with no magic, no non-human races, and no monsters.  It could be done, but...

I should have clarified: the powers in a fantasy setting would be replaced by a list of spells. This is only, of course, for new players to get up and running in a single evening, not a long-term change to the rules. It's only a suggestion to help alleviate the brick wall that the powers section often presents for newbies to smash into. Just a thought.

Yes, I have a couple of copies of it. I like it a lot, and the Complete books are derived from it from what I understand. When I first got back into HERO System after a few decades off, I used the Basic Rulebook to help me get up to speed on the new edition, and then moved up to the two main core rulebooks. I'd recommend it to any GM, especially new ones. But again, it's more detailed than I'm looking for in a beginner document for players (I think the Basic Rulebook is perfect for beginning GMs).

I have in mind something even shorter, and genre-specific in order to cut out a lot of the unnecessary stuff. The powers take up 44 pages, and I'm thinking that removing that, and trimming away could get things down to a very manageable size. Maybe 50 pages? I read GURPS Lite in half an hour and felt like I had a good grasp of things. This is more like what I'm trying to develop.

Wow.  That's a tall order.

 

Actually, not really.  That other points based universal role playing game does exactly this in a 32 page PDF.  In fact, it's a free download from their web site.

I am guilty of this, so far.  Almost all the stuff I've put out is for GMs, who tend to buy the most product.  There's some in the Codex for players building spells, but mostly its been for GMs.  I hope to rectify that with the player book but Hero needs to put out a player-friendly super simple Hero for Dummies type book.

Phydaux, I never realized that there was such a document for "the other game." I downloaded it and looked at it, and in about half an hour I learned the game enough that I feel like I could make a character and run a battle in maybe a couple of hours, or in an evening for sure. THIS is the sort of "Hero for Dummies" document I'm talking about. I would do it a bit differently, but this is exactly what I've been looking for. Fantasy Hero Complete is a must for a GM to run a full campaign, but this 32-page document gave me everything I needed to know about the game, an enough to feel like I could play it for a little bit, with the understanding that I'd be growing into a larger, more complex system.

As I wrote in a different post, Hero needs to show that it can be scaled down for beginners just as much as it can be scaled up for advanced play. I mean, if you cut out the powers and modifiers section from FHC, you lose 100 pages and have a roughly 150 book. Imagine boiling the 150 pages down even more, just to the essentials needed for players (not GMs) to be ready to play.

So, I'm curious what newbies think about this idea? What is a good page count for a handout document or possibly a small booklet?

You might also include (or publish separately) a collection of all tables in the core books. Or perhaps of all books at all, or maybe several thematic collections. 

 

If I ever get a group together to try Hero, I would definitely print out a copy of all tables to each player for easy reference, but I would gladly pay a few dollars for a formatted version, so I won't have to copy-paste all those pictures into a word document to print. But this is more of a nice-to-have than need-to-have.

If you look in the downloads section, there are a couple of different GM screens that have most of the essential tables and things you'd need. There are a few things missing, but you can make those up yourself. I tried building my own GM screen with all the tables that I wanted, and it was just waaaaay too long. There are a lot of important tables, and I'm not sure how useful it would be to put them all together since it would be such a long list of things. I use the GM screen and then have the books handy to look up the occasional other things.

Here's a list of all their products through 2011: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hero_System_Products 

*Edit: it just occurred to me you may have meant all of the tables for character creation. If that's the case, yes, I agree! They could all be put together in a few pages. The last Appendix in Fantasy Hero Complete has a lot of these tables, but it's also missing some things.

I think this hits the nail on the head for me. Such things exist, and a couple have been referenced in this thread, but they're all fan-built and you have to go looking for them.

 

Also: all the published Hero materials (AFAIK) are very much written around what the GM needs to know rather than what the Players need to know. The former is an order of magnitude greater than the latter.

Agreed. I think what I'm looking at is something that is written for new players, not new GMs. I think the Complete books are pretty much essential for GMs, but it seems like there could be something much simpler for new players who have a more experienced GM to help them. I don't think Hero is the kind of game that someone can learn to GM in a weekend, at least not effectively. I guess a lot of things could be cut out or simplified for the GM, but then you start to lose the feel of Hero. From the player's point of view, however, much less background of the system is needed.

My EGO took a hit when I was first stymied, so I tracked down the different books in the effort to learn HERO.

 

A glossary of TLAs and other game terms would be helpful. When unwinding rules concepts it's tough when you hit another HERO-specific game term when reading about another one, especially for the first (second, third) time. A glossary would alleviate that a bit, I'd think. The index, no matter how good, isn't necessarily helpful here.

Actually... A document that consisted of a basic gameplay primer* and a comprehensive CC/FHC Glossary** would have been very helpful to the last few people I tried to teach Hero. Such a document would probably fit into 10 pages or less; meaning GMs could afford to print several copies of it to be used as handouts.

*  How to make Success Rolls, how to make Attack Rolls, how to perform Skill Vs. Skill Contests, how to make Effect Rolls (and apply defenses), how to perform STR vs. STR Contests, and how to read the Speed Chart and determine Initiative.

**  One containing a one or two sentence description of every single Game Element, presented in alphabetical order.

Wow, I never noticed that there's no glossary! That would be a really useful document. To be fair, there is an overview of all the game mechanics in the first few pages of Fantasy Hero Complete which serves as a de facto glossary, but you have to know where to look to find explanations. So yes, an alphabetical glossary would be really useful. Preferably one that's not a stripped down version of the longer game definitions, but rather a more plain-language explanation that gives a feel for the game terminology.

There are also the free downloads of Hero in 2 pages, and sample combat, and things like that. Champions Complete gave even more supplementary documents that help explain things. It seems like these could all be put into one larger document with a glossary.

If we are talking about the Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete version of Hero... While it could have been presented better, there isn't much left to cut. Everything I could think to cut (Talents for example) would actually make the game harder to understand, not easier. FHC should have included more 175-point Standard Heroes; enough to fill out a full table of players. But the author made a reasonable effort to make FHC more plug & playable by including a short campaign setting & adventure (not to mention more monsters and sample characters) available as part of the electronic edition.

 

A lot of the issue comes down to presentation. I've had more than one new player's eyes glaze over when they read a character sheet, or even just the Game Elements section of a spell or special ability. If you follow the Writers Guidelines for 5th/6th edition, you end up with about a paragraph or so of (frankly useless) flavor text, and then a second block of game elements text that reads like computer code (and may not actually do what the flavor text describes, depending upon the system savviness of the writer).

 

One of the conundrums I frequently ponder as I work on my various personal projects: How do we write a campaign setting (let alone an adventure) interesting and complete enough that a new GM can actually use it, at a price they can afford to pay and we can afford to work for, and without making it so difficult to read we knock our customers off the learning curve?

The presentation part of this is what I'm getting at. I'm interested in creating something that's completely scalable with the already existing products. My buddy's eyes glazed over when he hit the powers section. In all honesty, this is the section I'd cut out of an introductory document first. If you have a spell list for beginners, you don't really need to show how they are built. Save that for moving into FHC for more details. That saves nearly 100 pages of text that a newbie doesn't really need to know! 100 pages that made my buddy put the book down and want to quit. 

So no, I don't want to kill what makes Hero unique and completely flexible, but i want something that is scalable. Once the basics are learned, then you can learn the toolbox and play around with it. Fantasy Hero Complete is far from plug-and-play, judging from my friend's experience with it. It is a useful summary of all the rules for a GM and for intermediate players who want to understand more of the toolbox. A beginner's guide should be playable in an evening. Phydaux brings this up, which I'll address in a separate post. But it think it's important to show that Hero can be scaled down as much as it can be scaled up. This is an aspect of its flexibility that ought to be shown as well.

Also, OP referenced Keep on the Borderlands as an excellent starting tool.  It was, and whoever did the Hero conversion Bless You.  

 

But one of the things that was included in the original TSR product was sample characters.  And that's something that's lacking in a lot of other "modern" products (Champions excluded).

 

If you're introducing people who have never plated Hero System to Fantasy Hero, then your first night should NOT be character creation night.  You should make up 8-12 175-point characters of different types for them to choose from, with Stats, Skills, Talents, Magic, weapons & armor.  They all end up in a seedy tavern down by the docks late one night.  A couple of the locals have a few too many drinks, one of them tells one of the PCs "You been eyeballin' me" and it's phase 12.

 

The PCs should have no trouble with a few drunks, but when Hodor the Bouncer (and retired gladiator) steps in things should get interesting.  

 

After that, they should have some idea how Stats, Skills, Talents, and Powers work together.  Then on the second night they can make the characters they want for the campaign.

 

Yes, making 12 "throwaway" characters is a lot of work.  That's what being a Gm is about.  Plus, once you've made them, guess what?  You've just populated your world with ass-kicking NPCs you can reuse over and over.  So the work isn't wasted.

This reminds me of another thought I had earlier. My assumption is that a group of newbies will probably have an experienced GM to lead them. I think that's a safe assumption, in which case a lot of this stuff is taken care of by the rules shepherd. What I'm interested in is if there's a way to "dumb it down" enough so that players can learn even without an experienced GM. A few people in this thread have talked about starting from scratch, which would scare the hell out of me, but some people are game for that. Is there a way to help them out without an experienced GM to pre-generate 12 characters to choose from, etc., as you describe?

This is all simply to edify my curiosity: how much can we trim away for the sake of simplicity, yet still maintain what makes Hero unique?