Durzan Malakim

In the enterprise software industry I work in, one of the key metrics we care about is "time to value." You can have the best software in the world, but if it takes you a year or more to see any benefits from it, you're going to lose in the market to those who provide a faster time to value. Hero might have a "time to value" problem where the "time to fun" is too high for new players and new GMs who've grown up playing genre-optimized games.

In my experience, learning the Hero system takes a lot of time. Some of the key concepts are the same from other games, such as you have characters that have statistics and you roll dice to determine game outcomes, but there are concepts unique to Hero such as building powers, knowing what all the power advantages and limitations do, and running combat from a speed chart. I really feel for new GMs because there are a lot of moving parts to juggle. You have to balance damage classes to provide challenges that aren't too easy and aren't too hard, determine penalties and bonuses for maneuvers and actions, and adjudicate whether a given advantage or limitation applies in a particular case. That's on top of developing an interesting story to engage your players.

Unless you have an engineering/design mind-set, learning to apply extensible rules can be more work than fun. While it's cool that you can reuse the same rules from your sword-and-sorcery-fantasy game in your super-heroic-justice game, sometimes all you care about are the rules that apply to your setting. That's why books like Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete exist after all - to make things easier for new players.

As a player, I find Champions Complete and Hero Designer really good resources, but even with my year and four months experience I'd feel overwhelmed trying to GM a Champions game much less GM another Hero genre. If I were to GM Hero I fear I would either have to constantly be looking up rules, which doesn't sound like fun, or making up my own to move the game ahead, which may not be fun for those players who actually know the rules and expect me to use them. Are there any GM's who actually learned Hero from Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero, or are we just surviving on GMs who learned from earlier editions? I hope there are such GMs, but I fear there aren't.

Based on @indy523's disease type descriptions, I think diseases can be modeled by one of two game effects:

• Damaging agent: Something, usually a foreign body, causes damage by slowly consuming you. The typical example is a bacteria or plasmid. You cure such diseases by destroying the thing which is consuming you. This is what our immune system does with fevers and white blood cells.
• Draining agent: Something transforms part of your body into a glitchy competitor for resources that drains you over time. The typical example is cancer, but this applies to weird things like prions as well. In the real world, you cure such diseases by destroying the transformed tissues and hoping the patient has enough healthy tissue remaining to survive the experience. With access to powers you could literally transform someone back to normal, or alternatively ensure the person survives the rigors of removing the draining agent.

In both cases, a typical heal of BODY and CON is just treating the symptoms and not the cause.

Identifying the disease agent is usually a non-trivial task in actual medicine and is why there is a science of epidemiology. Most games could rightly hand-wave identifying common or known disease pathogens, but identifying the disease agent of the zombie plague should probably require actual effort. Are zombies the result of the T-virus, a rogue nanobot swarm, or a magical curse? Your cure will vary based on the source, and the cure for one disease agent will have no effect on another.

It's interesting that HERO doesn't have a condition for being diseased like other games. It has conditions for things that will come up in fights such as stunned, bleeding, prone, drowning, etc., but the only in-game mechanic for feeling bad or dying from a disease over time is either a continuous AVAD attack or a drain.

My guess is the lack of a simple disease mechanic is a result of HERO's origins as a Champions spin-off. Until relatively recently in the comics source material, superheroes did not get sick. They did not whither away from mummy rot, suffer from an Otyugh bite, or turn into zombies from the T-Virus. They had no need to go to the cleric for a lesser restoration / remove disease. Now that there are multiple generations of gamers who expect such a mechanic however, perhaps it's time to offer some optional rules to make this simple. Perhaps the rules for radiation poisoning (6E2 page 153-155) can be adapted for diseases.

Given how often foci are both inaccessible and indestructible, players such as myself are probably much better off following the Vulture's example in Spiderman Homecoming:

Accesible foci can be targeted in their own right, by definition. You can use a standard Entangle on a gun without affecting the entire holder, and they'd have to remove the entangle to use the gun again. 

 

Besides, who says those web tricks are standard Entangles? I'd have thought your basic webslinger would have at least Variable Advantage, if not a Multipower or VPP (Webbing tricks).

Now I wonder if Dr. Strange has VPP called Focus Pocus.

I'm more worried about that awkward conversation between players. "Why is my character listed as a Follower on your character sheet?"

@Matt the Bruins: Yes unbreakable foci have those benefits.

 

6E1 379: "An Unbreakable Focus is considered to have Power Defense solely for the purposes of protecting it from being Drained or Transformed, and is Difficult to Dispel; see Dispel, Drain, and Transform."

My current favorite cheap powers all reside on someone else's character sheet: Teleport, Aid, Barrier, and Heal. I get the benefits without spending a single character point. I wonder if our wizard counts as an Obvious Accessible focus?

As I get more familiar with character designs I see why Variable Powers Pools are the natural end state for all builds. Why do just one thing, or even a few things, when you can do all the things?

For 75 active points I think I'd rather take 75 PD (only to stop falling damage).  No endurance and you could fall from orbit and not take body.

Elegant as this is, a 75 PD exceeds most PC's campaign limits for defenses, unless your GM is feeling generous.

@DasBroot, from my player perspective breakable foci are most often mook-level gear. It's possible I've met an opponent with a breakable focus before, but our typical fight-of-the-week has to able to handle four to six 600+ point super heroes. I would have expected our cunning tactics of "get 'em" to have hit any such focus in an area-of-effect attack by now. I suspect it much's easier for a GM not to track focus defenses and BODY when they have so many other things to manage already. It's the same reason we never see opponents run out of END, because it's not even being tracked.

I like the idea that in a Champions Universe our world's version of events qualifies as a conspiracy theory. "Right, a comet or meteor just happens to air burst over Russia and leaves no impact crater. Next you're going to tell me there's a world without super powers and magic."

For your evaluation, consider the Captain America fight scene in the elevator.

Undisputed Focus qualities displayed:

• Obvious: It's a shield.
• Durable or Unbreakable: It survives falling damage without a scratch.

Possible Focus qualities displayed:

• Inaccessible: No opponents target or take the shield.
• Personal: No opponents pick up and use the shield.

Possible Limitations displayed:

• Extra time: Captain America takes a phase to kick the shield into his hands, but perhaps that's just a PRE attack for the guys watching on camera.
• Restrainable: Captain America cannot use the shield while being grappled.

Possible Limitations I would rule out:

• Activation roll: The shield may not offer protection from all directions, but no opponent ever targets an unprotected area or shoots him from behind. 
• Lockout: The shield may not offer protection when used offensively, but no opponent ever targets him while he's attacking.

Dispel (power) breaks foci really well.  Drain Body does it too, since its extremely rare a focus has very much body or any power defense.

I suspect the effectiveness of Dispel and Drains is why players never see an opponent over a mook who has a breakable focus. Certainly our group's VPP wizard would have a field day dispelling resistant defenses if he ever faced an opponent with a breakable focus limitation.

The why build a focus breaking power has an indirect answer. My super hero has a psychological limitation to follow a heroic code of conduct, which includes the appropriate use-of-force. So while he has a deadly killing attack power, he is not likely to use it to kill opponents except in exceptional circumstances. Objects and focuses however are fair targets.

So I don't necessarily need to create a niche power as much as understand how to best use the power I already have for a new purpose. For the admittedly rare cases where I will face a foe with a breakable focus that I know about, it appears that doing lots of damage to break it is a viable strategy. I am just considering alternatives and learning from the experts.

From a theory-crafting perspective, a Penetrating Autofire attack is an elegant and optimized solution to the problem. From a character concept perspective, it's not a good fit and now I know that.

I have some experience points to spend on a Champions character, and was thinking of repurposing a killing attack power into an attack I use to break objects and focuses. My current power is a deadly 5d6 (with STR) armor piercing killing attack, but by my reading of the focus rules more damage isn't better when it comes to focuses:

From 6E1 379: "When an attack hits a Breakable Focus, each attack that penetrates the PD/ED of the Focus and does BODY damage destroys one of the powers bought through the Focus. The amount of BODY done is unimportant — one power is destroyed whether the attack did 1 BODY or 15."

 

Would a Penetrating attack or a NND attack with does BODY be better at simply doing the 1 BODY needed to damage a focus? What's your advice? 

From my player-observer-perspective, the focus rules only tend to come up in these circumstances.

• During character design you can select the focus limitation to save points.
• When fighting mooks with weapons its expected you can disarm or destroy their focuses.
• When the storyline includes the capture of heroes and you have to escape without your usual resources.

What I don't ever see is players or GMs going out of their way to remind each other about Obvious focuses that can be exploited. Nor have I seen many story lines where a villain or PC spent time wondering, "Where do Hero Protagonist's or Vile Villain's powers come from?" to identify Inobvious focuses.

More often, players run into a signature villain in powered armor who can never be deprived of his or her powers. It doesn't matter that we know the powered armor is the source of all our troubles; one does not simply remove or break Dr. Destroyer's armor.

So while the focus rules provide a lot of variety in point values, in actual game play, the decision seems to be more binary. Does the GM want to temporarily take someone's power away, yes or no? 

I'd think it's a bit of a distraction myself, but if I were to implement it, I'd say just give them a +8 Range mod bonus.  That will make spotting someone with sonar underwater as quick and as easy as spotting them next to you.

True but the issue is that using SONAR in Air would be much worse than using sight.

I suspect dstaow assumed you'd only apply the +8 Range mod bonus when in water. You could apply the standard HERO System range modifiers when in air, which stack up pretty fast without Penalty Skill Levels to reduce them.

I was just typing my response about adding rapid to sonar in water, when Christopher beat me to it. Here are the relevant details which if you squint hard enough kinda match your math. From 6E1 214:

 

A character with a Rapid Sense can use that Sense to “read” or otherwise take in or absorb data or sensations faster than normal. At its base level, Rapid lets the character perceive objects 10x faster than normal. Characters can buy Rapid multiple times [...] Rapid doesn’t provide any direct bonuses to PER Rolls. But as a guideline, the GM may assume each level of Rapid counts as +3 with appropriate PER Rolls, only to counteract penalties for performing tasks quickly (see 6E1 59). Thus, with Rapid x10, a character can perceive in a Phase what other characters take 1 Turn to perceive; with Rapid x100, he perceives in a Phase what others need 1 Minute to perceive; and so on.

I know it was you indy523. You who broke my heart. You broke my heart.

The Long Sleep could be another variable in the Drake Equation. LS is the number of space-faring/technological civilizations that are in hibernation/waiting for a signal.

I suspect the game effects and SFX of skills have always been loosely defined so that GMs can choose how important they are in their games. A HERO System game is like a movie with the GM as director.

In a superhero action adventure movie, how much screen time do you want to devote to The Prince Charmer (PC*) persuading Unnamed Mook #1 to stop working for Mastermind? The GM might be content adjudicating this interaction with a simple skill roll because the encounter is intended to be nothing more than a minor obstacle on the way to "The Big Action Scene." The game effects might be that the PC can cut to the chase quietly on a success or the Mook raises an alarm if the PC fails. The special effect is Prince Charmer is a really persuasive guy who uses mumble-mumble-hand-waved-movie-magic.

However maybe you're game is all about role-playing character-driven moments, and the PC spends an entire scene discussing the henchman's life with Marty Mook (because obviously he needs a name now). After ten minutes of conversation, the PC uses what he's learned from Marty Mook to try and persuade him to come work for him instead. The GM decides Marty is a naturally loyal sort who is also deathly afraid of crossing his super-powered boss. The PC may have his work cut out for him. The game-effects could be the PC gains a new Contact, DNPC, or Summon on a success, or Marty triggers a silent alarm to betray the PC on a failure. The special effect is simple conversation.

*Yes, this acronym is intentionally meant to also stand for Player Character.

I think many people really underestimate how much a person can be swayed by effective manipulators and orators. Con men, cult leaders, politicians, etc generally make individuals act outside their best interests, change their minds and even do "stupid" things in real life a great deal. But from an audience perspective its much easier to Armchair quarter back. We have access to information the subjects don't (knowing its fictional story among them), we are under no pressure or stress and not really the target of the attempt at persuasion, manipulation, etc. 

I think this is a case where truth is stranger than fiction. In a super-heroic setting, the villain uses mind control to become the ruler of Campaign City and we nod our heads and say, "Yeah, that's believable." In the real world, a villain uses persuasion to convince someone to vote for them, to strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up, or to believe the Earth is flat despite all evidence to the contrary, and we say, "That's way too powerful for a normal person. It would take Mind Control to get someone to do those things."

Persuasion - Longest lasting.  Over time you fundamentally change someone's mind.  As Derek said - converting a non-believer with many rolls over a long time.  In a short time it can convince someone to do something they're not particularly adverse to (letting you go with a warning for a minor infraction). Over a long time a cult leader could use it to create zealots who continue his cause after he's gone.

In another thread there was a suggestion to resolve some skills contests with a damage versus defense mechanic instead of the pass/fail-in-one-phase-skill mechanic. Persuasion would work well with this kind of model where you slowly whittle away someone's objections rather than the burst-damage effect that better suits Mind Control in my opinion. For example, to convince the Goon to let you go you could treat every skill level in Persuasion as 1d6 versus the Goon's EGO and defenses such as a duty to follow orders (+1 defense) and fear of his boss (+2 defense), for Def 3 / 8 EGO.

Alternatively, you could require Persuasion to inherently take extra time. I know that RAW you can recite Hamlet in one phase as a free action, but actual persuasion takes time and back-and-forth interaction where you listen as often as you speak. If baseline persuasion took a minute or ten minutes, then trying to do it in one phase would be at a penalty for rushing. Skill monkeys could do a better rush job than a normal person, but they would no longer walk around with the equivalent of Jedi Mind tricks.

How combat-optimized do you expect these heroes to be? While I'm sure there are Champions games that require and reward role-playing and skill challenges, I suspect most new players will be expecting to join Superhero Fight Club. You don't want to give them an Ang Lee Hulk when they are expecting a "Hulk Smash!" version.

Things to consider:

• Beast: Will hate any opponent who can move out of her reach, especially vertically.
• Belt: Will probably not like superhero fight club since he spent nearly 100 character points on skills appropriate to his origin rather than abilities to fight other super heroes.
• Blur: will play like a video game character controlled by one-button. "I press the Passing Strike button again and again forever." Is there no other attack option you can give her?
• Blast: Will probably do well in the inevitable "superheroes fight each other when they first meet" encounter.
• Bolt: Is already well built for superhero fight club, but could be even scarier if he invested fewer points in customization skills.
• Brain: Is already well built for superhero fight club, and can hover just out of Beast's reach and ruin her day.
• Brick: Will also hate any opponent who can move out of his reach, especially vertically.