Willpower

Re: How to kill characters?

First off, my intention is not to be insulting, and I'm sorry if you perceived it differently. I am, however, trying to look at this from the Brick player's point of view, and, standing back as someone not involved in the game, I think it would be very easy for that player to perceive you as specifically targetting his character with this "special power".

Ok, well I am not going to respond to you in this thread anymore, as you seem to be intentionally misinterpreting what I am saying in order to cause an arguement. You also seem to be only addressing a portion of what I have been saying, and ignoring other aspects which are contrary to your preconceived notions.

I hope you can get over the bad feelings you have from the previous games you addressed earlier as they are clearly coloring your judgement here.

One last thing I will say is, you have been keeping up with my other threads as well, so you should remember how I talked about a character named Lightning Lass taking out Viperia. Well this all happened in the same fight, which occured inside a jet. So even if Payback hadn't used a megascale attack against Thumper, just knocking him out of the jet traveling at 150" a phase, or 450" a turn would get rid of him as there would be no way for him to catch back up to it with his flight speed of 10" (20" NC). Also, another character was effectively taken out of the combat too, that was Lightning Lass, who was an NPC being played by a character. Only she took herself out by doing a move through and missing and flying through the back of the jet. She was faster than Thumper though, so toward the end of the fight, after the jet crashed she was able to enter again for one last round. Had Payback not used Megascale KB though, Thumper would have still been so far behind the jet that there would have been no way for him to catch up even by then. Plus if that had happened, he would have probably been taken out by all the Viper Agents as they were all being chased by several hundred agents, and Viper Artilery vehicles.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

BTW Mentor... 9 Characters?!? Thats a huge group. Grats on being able to handle so much. Combats must take hella long though.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

Except everyone doesn't have a SPD 6. I am a co-GM in Trebuchet's campaign. The name team in the Midguard universe has diverse 2-SPD 4, 3-SPD 5, 3-SPD 6, and 1-SPD 9 character. No PCs in the game lack for playing time, value to the team, effectiveness in or out of combat. none of them have ever been too powerful either.

 

I will concede that nobody elected to have a "Joe Average" SPD of 2 or 3, but neither do they have a "Joe Average" STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, COM, PD, ED, REC, END, or STUN. None of them. So it seems that singling out only SPD for not being a default in the human average range is mistaken.

No, the point is, the lowest end of the spectrum is labelled as human maximum. Which means among the human population you will very rarely find a human with higher speeds than this. But in the Superhuman population, you will very rarely find heroes as low as this, whether they should be exceptionally fast or not.

And again. It is not a problem with the system, but the published setting that ignores its own guidelines for what is within the normal human range. Also, we have plenty of people that fall within Average Joe standards for most or all other characteristics, except Speed or Dex. Yours and mine are just two examples out of thousands though.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

If the only way to differentiate characters was with high DEX and SPD, I'd think you raise a good point. But the fact is those are only two of a myriad of ways characters can excel in combat (if indeed the character is supposed to excel in combat). I play a character with incredible stats in both (DEX 43; SPD 9), but for darn sure she doesn't dominate our typical combats. Other characters have higher defenses, unusual and/or more powerful attacks, higher defenses, etc. It all works out.

True, though we aren't talking about people using alternate attack types here, or even discussing attacks and defenses. This dicussion belongs elsewhere.

Of the 8 characters active on our team, we have one SPD 4, four SPD 5's, two SPD 6's, and a SPD 9. The CU may have a glut of SPD 6, but that's not a flaw with the system but rather a problem with the corporate setting. The CU was designed by committee over a period of two decades, and it shows. Home-brewed campaign worlds tend to be much meatier and better rounded, at least the ones I've seen on these boards. That's as it should be.

And again, we are in agreement. That is what I have been saying all along. Thanks again. I truely don't see what we are arguing about. It's not a flaw with the system, just with the published setting.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

To move that to semi-Hero terms' date=' this means Barry Allen, without Superspeed, has DEX 30. The Flash can enhance his DEX to his Superspeed levels instead. However, Hero and DC Comics don't translate perfectly, despite the seeming similarities, because some stats rise higher than others in Hero, but not in DC. A 45 STR in Hero (9 in DC) isn't much of an attack power, but a 45 DEX in Hero is way higher up the curve than a 9 DEX in DC.[/quote']

 

Except, he wouldn't have a 30 Dex. Str converts easily in 1 to 5 increments, but that does not follow that the other stats do as well. But enough about that. I don't want to hijack a thread. I brought DC Heroes up to illustrate a point.

Re: How to kill characters?

With all those limitations, which make the power practically useful nly against the Brick, I can certainly see how the player could see this power as custom-designed to frustrate his character.

 

As to the defense issue, baseballs fly further because they are compact, aerodynamic and made of a material which facilitates rapid compression and decompression, resulting in more 'oomph' when hit with the bat. Pillows aren't. A 30 defense could result from being semi-liquid, partially desolid, or coated in a sheathe of PlotDevicium which does not yeild when struck (and therefore does not compress or decompress). Each of those SFX would result in the target logically being harder, not easier, to knock back. But, of course, only the Brick will have that 30+ defense, so it's easy shorthand for "only to affect the brick".

 

You designed the power. It only affects the Brick. Whether intentional or not, it certainly creates the appearance that this abilityhas been designed to specifically frustrate the Brick.

Boy am I lucky that I read this just before my relief came at work, because I would have certainly received an infraction. You apparently misunderstood what I said to the point that you were insulting. But Hugh I respect your opinion generally, and feel the reason you were probably being insulting, at least to my mind, has to do with the negative experience you associated with what I was saying. It could be that just our games work slightly differently, but this power BY FAR does not work simply on the brick. I said that the multiple for it was scalable based on Defense, NOT that it only worked on 30+ Defenses. The limitation actually is that Defenses up to 19 only work at inches X 10, Defenses of 20-29 work at inches X 100, and Defenses 30+ work at inches X 1000, which is the low range allowed for megascale. I made this limitation, NOT to simply have it is effective against the Brick, but because it doesn't make one lick of sense to me that if an normal Agent got hit by an attack and knocked several miles away that they would even have a chance at living through it. For that reason alone, I would require a limitation like this in any use of a megascale KB attack. Though the next reason justifies it as well.

The other reason, which was what my example with the baseball and the pillow was based on, is based in physics. I don't have the papers where I worked it all out for the game I am building right now, but basically it deals with the absorption of kinetic force, and indicates that if an item absorbs the force (IE taking damage from it) it would be knocked back less than if it repelled the force. So effectively, if two items which weighed the same, and effectively were the same in all regards, save defense, were hit with the same amount of force, but one was able to resist taking damage, and the other took massive damage, than the one that resisted the damage more would be knocked back further than the one that took the damage. I can't explain the entire thing off the top of my head, and some of my terminology is wrong, because I am not a physicist, but I went through all of this with a physics student while at college, and it is a sound theory. Knockback should be greater against those that an resist the damage of the attack more.

Of course all of that is based on the defense being based on the object simply being harder, or tougher, not being made of semi-liquid or partially desolid. You are correct there, those items would be harder to knock back, and thus that character should have KB resistance to simulate it. Given something like that I may have, as a GM, made the call that they would fall into a lower category. Though the PC in question, had Density Increase. His defenses are based on being harder, and so the analogy applies. It still provided with KB Resistance, which was taken into account.

As for the defenses and the basis that you think this would only affect the Brick goes, Payback is a master villain, on the level of Mechanon or so. He is supposed to take on teams of people. On OUR team no one falls in the first category for his knockback. So anyone on the team hit with it would take at least X 100" KB. For most characters this would still be knocking them back over a KM, and none have an effective method for getting back quickly from that. The martial artist is the quickest with 20" of movement and an 8 SPD. However, an older character that just came into the game and is working on an adjustment of his sheet that may eventually include a faster movement rate. The Brick in question and one other falls into the third category of KB distance.

So the attack is still viable against ANY character in the group, and would effectively take ANY of them out of the combat. This is why I didn't want to overuse it. Would it have been better if I had used it on two members? Three? When does it become something more than just a way to make people upset.

I see - it's all good because it's explained by the writeup of the power, and the personality of the villain. Tell me, who designed this power of the villain only to affect the Brick, then structured the villain's personality so he would only use it on the Brick?

Wellll... I designed the power, though as I explained above it is useful on EVERY character in our team, not just the brick. As for the personality, that was actually the player himself. Payback IS the player's character. Payback was a major villain from a while ago, who suffered a massive trauma that left him amnesiac, greatly depowered, and with the mind of a child. Recently a villain used a device to seperate Payback and Thumper, our brick. This is also the reason why he considerred the Brick as the greatest threat. Not only was he HIM, but he knew that the device that seperated them was in the hands of the players. If the players got him and the brick in the room at the same time, and they had figured out how to work the device (they hadn't, and didn't have it with them, but he didn't know that) then they could have rejoined them, and effectively gotten rid of him without throwing a punch or energy blast. Understand it now?

[ASIDE: I once played with a GM who wouild explain any flaw in his adventure with "Well, that's what the module says." He didn't GM for our group very long. The excuse holds even less water when the GM wrote the module.]

Explained above. Also to note, when you respond you may want to divorce yourself and past misdeeds from the response. I am taking it that this incident and the one below are the cause the insulting tone I read into your reply. If it was nearly anyone else, I would probably report this as a insulting reply, but I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions normally, but you are WAY off on this one, and jumping to all sorts of conclusions based on facts you didn't have. I am not saying you were trying to be insulting, but it certainly came off that way to me.

I'm not saying that you consicously set out to design a power that would frustrate the Brick/his player specifically while having no impact on anyone else in the group. However, I can certainly see how the Brick's player could readily perceive it that way, and even how it is possible you set up this result, consciously or subconsciously. The character's name (Payback) does little to mitigate that perception.

As I said, Payback was invented by the player. He came up with the name too.

I'm always suspicious of powers that have significant oddball limitations. I'm reminded of a player many years ago who presented the GM with an AVLD: Defense is 2x Intelligence. The character was also Hunted by an extremely powerful Hulk homage which, I believe, had an INT of about 3. I wonder who the power was intended for use on?

I explained the Scalable limitation above. As for the other limitations, none are oddball. I wanted this to be something he didn't use all the time. So I placed concentration on it. That halves his DCV, but that alone wasn't enough, since he doesn't worry about getting hit much. So I added that he has to push his strength to use it, as it is also intended to be an all out punch-type attack. Maybe it would have been better if it was only usable with a Haymaker though instead... have to think about that. He also has a lot of Endurance, and I wanted it a bit inaccurate, so I finally added the -2 OCV. I don't believe any of these other limitations are oddball, and the only other one there is, is explained in detail above.

Will the mentalist be conveniently removed from the combat next time, using a custom power which, due to a comination of unusual limitations and the villain's personality, won't be effective on anyone else?

 

So the Brick gets removed from the combat with no practical way of returning. The Mentalist gets an unusual, challenging opponent who has some powers that will make it tough to beat the villain, yet weaknesses (no mental defense) that will allow the mentalist to still participate and be effective, although the player will have to use some tactical thinking to maximize his effectiveness.

 

Would you rather be playing the Brick or the Mentalist in this situation? Does this provide some indication of why the Brick's player might feel he has been singled out for "special treatment"?

No the mentalist will not be removed from the combat. These sorts of insinuations are part of what I found insulting in your reply. The no practical way of returning is flaw in the character, that is something I will not take responsibility for. He chose one thing over the other. Instead of making his flight faster, which is one of the powers he told me Payback had (When he was Payback, he chose to make himself tougher first. And to add mental defense, which he didn't have originally, and to increase his DR to resistant.

As for the mentalist, she already figured out what Payback's defense is versus mental powers. When he concentrates on it, his mind is like a bear trap, and does massive damage to any mind touching his. (Mental Damage Shield) He has to concentrate on it, and looses the use of all other powers in his MP, so this isn't on all the time. It is also a visible power, so the mentalist still will know when it is on. The mentalist has a weakness though, in that she has an always on telepathy damage shield. So if she is in physical contact she always be touching his mind. Which could work the same way if he touches her. She will have to be careful, though she already knows this.

Re: Move-Through Broken?

There is a point at which I, as a GM, would say "this has moved beyond even a 1 in 216 'incredible odds' chance of success to a 'simply can't be done; no need to roll' no chance at all of success.

 

In any case, it's important to remember that noncombat movement takes considerable time for aceleration (one phase for each noncombat multiple, as I recall), so a character should generally be able to note that someone is gearing up for a full NCM move into them before it happens.

 

When you're at OCV 0 with a -10 penalty for velocity, I'm inclined to say "no longer possible to target precisely enough to hit a normal sized human target".

Yeah well, I play the game based on the rules, and according to those a 3 on 3d6 always hits. So that is how I play it. I don't simply disallow actions because they are hard. As for building up speed, that did happen. Lightning Lass had been ejected from the Jet before it crashed and was chasing it as fast as she could for several rounds, before Viperia started chasing after the other members of the group. So the attack was still unseen.

Re: Move-Through Broken?

It almost seems like you're saying Move-throughs should do More damage?

 

Don't think I've ever heard that before.

 

Did you add up the total amount of Move Through damage your guys could do in a Turn? If your idea of their velocity damage is based on their velocity per turn then you should consider how many dice each of them throw around per 12 seconds. Your high Speed guy's not at a disadvantage then.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that if two characters move at the same velocity per turn, but one has a higher SPD than the other, the one with the higher SPD will actually do less damage even though both characters move at the same speed. This seems wrong to me. I already acknowledged that the one with the higher SPD may do more damage due to more attacks per round, but they will not do as much with a single attack. This becomes more of a problem when the one with the lower SPD is actually slower than the one with the higher SPD, but still does more damage because they move more inches in the fewer rounds they do go. This allows them to be able to do damage based on velocity to those that the faster one cannot, simply beause they paid LESS points for something.

Re: Move-Through Broken?

[bTW' date= I wouldn't worry a lot about those noncombat movement movethrough examples. Your OCV is so penalized that you're not going to hit, and if you did, the backlash damage should take you out anyway.]

Except this is just what happened in my game. A Player, playing an NPC named Lightning Lass, who I converted from a randomly rolled up Marvel Superheroes character did a noncombat move-through on Viperia. You would normally be right on everything, but the player rolled a 3, hitting Viperia, and doing TONS of Damage. Lightning Lass being converted from MSH isn't incredibly offensive. She has 23 Dex, 5 SPD, and 50 Str, and no levels. Hardly a real powerhouse for our game, where our Brick has 65 Str, and 25 Dex, and 6 Spd. Her one Schtick is she is incredibly invulnerable. (True Invulnerability at UnEarthly in MSH) Which I converted over to 35 PD, ED and 50% DR. Defensively she is just NASTY. Though she can be nickle and dimed, its hard to take her out with one hit. After the Move-Through, she only took 5 Stun, since she did in fact knock Viperia back. It also happened to knock Viperia out. It wouldn't have, had Viperia been fresh (It did 89 Stun to her and she has 90), but she had taken a few points of damage already.

Re: Move-Through Broken?

Yeah, it doesnt make sense. its because how fast a person actually runs isnt dependent only on how much Running they have, but also on their SPD stat. Normally in HERO you're supposed to buy what you want directly if there is a power that does it directly, rather than simulating what you want using some other power. Movement, however, is heavily dependent on SPD, even though there is a whole category of powers called 'movement powers'.

 

Another reason to divorce SPD from movement, in my book.

How do you go about divorcing SPD from movement?

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

I don't see it as a mistake, I see it as one option. The fact is, in most superhero comics, agents of Hydra, Roxxon Corporation or HIVE demonstrate the ability to routinely hit those supers for whom high agility is not a schtick. In Champions, VIPER agents need special weaponry to level the playing field.

 

In espionage, cops & robbers and similar "Dark Champions" source material, the heroes generally evade gunfire, and in space opera, the heroes typically evade blaster fire. Fantasy characters run the gamut between high def low DCV and high DCV low def, but generally are superior to the King's Guard and easily evade their swordblows and archers. I can't think of a non-Supers genre where evasion is not the primary defense.

 

I don't think any player wants to play a character who is markedly inferior to the norm. For Champions as it has evolved, that makes a 4 SPD and an 18-20 DEX the bottom of the barrel - and that character is still remarked on as being slow. If we dropped the typical DEX by 10 and the typical SPD by 2, a 10 DEX, 2 SPD character would still be slow, and uncommon. A typical Super might be DEX 13 - 15 and SPD 3, still well above the masses - as quick and agile as an agent-level opponent, rather than DEX 23 - 25 and SPD 5, making the Agents unable to compete. The amazingly fast Supers might have a DEX of 23 - 26 and SPD 7-8, rather than DEX 33 - 35, and be amazingly fast and agile compared to those agents, and to fellow Supers.

 

Would that be superior? Not objectively. It would better duplicate some comic book tropes (ie the army and the agents have no real difficulty hitting Supers who aren't at the higher agility ranges), and probably fall offside on others. It would, however, also not be objectively inferior. It would certainly be viable.

 

Either approach is workable, and my game follows the Hero example, as I suspect most do, simply because that's the easiest aproach, and the added difficulty of dropping all the DEX and SPD scores is not worth the extra effort. The balance works well at the present level, and dropping SPD would create a ripple effect. For instance, with lower SPD, there would be less attacks per PS 12 recovery, so assuming END scores, STUN scores and REC scores remain unchanged, combat will become longer. Adjustment powers and Flash will be come less valuable, as they will recover more quickly (ie in less phases) by comparison. Characters will have freed up between 25 and 30 points to spend elsewhere. It's easier by far to stick with the established baselines as they have evolved, and avoid all those ripples.

 

 

 

But a 4 SPD is quite slow for a Super under the existing rules, isn't it? It's all relative. Ben's history easily justifies a SPD and DEX appropriate for a trained and experienced soldier. Aren't VIPER 5 team agents also similar to trained and experienced soldiers? A reasonable case could be made that a 350 point Thing (rather than the Thing with a 40+ year publishing history) might reasonably have DEX and Speed similar to that of a VIPER agent. But I can virtually guarantee that any writeup we see of a starting level Brick will have at least 3 DEX points and a Speed point over a Viper agent. More likely, he will have at least a 20 DEX (5 more), maybe 23 (8 more) and a 5 SPD (2 more) than the VIPER agent. That means the agent has a less than 50% chance of any attack hitting, even if Ben takes no special defensive actions. That's not consistent with all those splash pages where several blaster bolts deflect off Ben's rocky hide, or even with the fact that the agents generally get a few shots off before they get clobbered.

 

The present model sets the human normal characteristic maximum (20 and 4) as a minimum to be a Super, and even then you're an unusually slow one. Is it really consistent with the comics that virtually every superhero and supervillain is markedly more agile and faster than even the elite of the non-Super population?

Sing on Brother.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

There's nothing to prevent a "normal" human from having a 12 Speed' date=' 40 Dex, and 50 strength except [i']concept.[/i] I much prefer a system which will allow me to have fun playing the game than something that locks in concrete what we can and cannot do. The purpose of the exercise is to have fun.

 

If everyone has SPD 12, then there's nothing special about it and what's the point of having it? Better to acknowledge each others' schtick, exercise a little restraint, and make your character stand out in some other way.

Uhh... That is my exact point. Only instead of everyone having a SPD 12, everyone has a SPD 6. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

Ummm...Why?

 

Why would he have to be outclassed by all the other supers on his 'team'? Or in the flip case, why shouldn't he outclass his fellow supers?

 

None of the above 'guidelines' forces him into either.

 

The only thing that does this (outside of points) would be the pre-conceived notion that he should be at either end of the scale.

Huh? You can't see how playing in a standard Champions campaign would keep you from playing a character with more human level abilities? Have you not looked at the characters in the system books.

And it is not a preconceived notion that a person who has the CONCEPT of playing a perfectly normal teenager who happens to have a super power should have NORMAL stats. That is a Character Concept, not a preconceived notion. But doing so would keep him from playing in the same field as other characters. Now you might think he should just go ahead and be outclassed, but the point is that he shouldn't have to be outclassed to play a character like that. If you look at most of the characters that have Dexterities and Speeds that are over the normal maximums. hardly any have a concept that would indicate they have Dexterities or Speeds that high. The only reason they exist that high, is that character average for those stats are that high. There is no other reason. Which means when you have someone that SHOULD have a Dexterity or a Speed that high, they have to go even higher in order to simulate that they are as good as they should have been with a lower stat. It becomes an unnecessary point glut.

(People end up building the concept with ideas like My character isn't really dexterous, or incredibly fast, so I'll give him a 24 Dex, and a 6 Speed, simply because it is campaign average. In effect the campaign has then moved the average from 10, to 24 for Dex, and from 2 to 6 for Speed. Only to get these averages you have to pay a lot of points to get it.)

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

So you go along with ghost and treb in their assertion that dex and speed should be and are based differently from each game/campaign to another game/campaign.

 

I agree as well and rather than use the term 'baseline', I think a more accurate terms is 'guideline'.

I agree Baseline, or guideline would be a better term than maximum if that is what you are saying. I also agree each campaign/game are based differently, though I don't think they need to be. If they truely wanted the current maximumx to be a guideline on where humans should normally end their progression, they could have done so, and been consistent from era to era, genre to genre with the occasional exception of over the top genres. Like an martial arts action campaign along the lines of Kill Bill and such where the main characters can fight off 88 bad guys at a time. Even then though, they could stay along the lines of normalcy, and just give those that should have it levels. As to continue that example, The *$@ should have a really high Dexterity, but some of the others wouldn't, but might have levels, or just be normal and end up part of the dead 88.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

This dates back to 1st Ed Champions. Consciously or not, the designers made several decisions. They decided that "normal humans" would be on the low edge of the characteristic range (2 SPD of a possible 12; 10 primary stats; defenses of 2). They decided that Supers would outstrip normals by a significant margin, providing sample characters whose DEX ranged from 18 to 30 and whose SPD ranged from 4 to 7. The earliest Enemies books maintained that range, although the DEX range crept out to 35 at the higher end, and 23 quickly became the "standard Super" dex. This is exacerbated by the decision, in later editions, to set "normal human maxima" of 20/4 for typical humans, and 30/6(?) for any humans, after already publishing non-supers in prior editions with DEX well beyond that. This set the typical Super as having, if not superhuman, at least a truly remarkable level of agility and speed.

 

Different decisions could have been made. The samle Brick in 1st Ed could have had a DEX of 8 and a SPD of 2. All the other sample characters could have had their DEX reduced by 8 - 10 and SPD by 2. The characters, compared against one another, would not have changed markedly, but the standard set for DEX and SPD would have, and we would have had highly trained agents who might have been quicker and more agile than slower Supers.

 

That's not the way the game evolved. Certainly, each new edition could have changed these ground rules as it came along. However, that would have rendered all the older source material obsolete, which would not be greeted warmly by established gamers. So the baseline for the Supers Universe in Hero stays more or less the same. Given the ease of customizing the game, nothing prevents any of us from deciding "in my game, lower DEX and SPD prevails", and dropping every published character by 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD across the board. And we can do that with characters fro products from every edition because Hero Games has kept the baseline consistent. We don't have to pick up a 3e product and go "Hmmm..the base line here is such that I only need to drop DEX by 6 and SPD by 1", and someone using the standard baselines doesn't make any changes at all in respect of DEX and SPD.

Yeah, I know. Its actually been one of my pet peeves of Hero since first edition. When I first got the game, I made a Brick as my first character based solely off the descriptions of what each stat could do. My Brick was insanely strong, had decent PD and ED, but all of his other necessary stats were terrible. I didn't think he would be any faster than the average person so he had a Dex of 10 and a Speed of 2. When I compared him to other characters after he was finished. He sucked completely. Sure his strength was good, and his defenses would keep him alive, but he would never hit anything but maybe an agent occasionally, and even they were faster than him.

Changing all characters like you say though, may sound like a suggestion that would work, but I have tried it and believe me it that easy. You end up having to do it on a case per case basis, as every once in a while, they will throw a Giganto in the mix and screw up your curve. I think it was third or 4th edition when I tried it this way. And it was easy at first, but since Giganto was built differently than most others, I believe he had a 10 Dex, and his prowess came from having tons of HTH OCV levels, so where he was built the minus to Dex and Speed needed to be adjusted, as he would have ended up with a 2 - 4 Dex, I think a 2 Speed, so that would have been fine, but he would have still had those tons of levels in HTH. It would have thrown that characters ballace off track. That is just one character though, and it generally worked fine. You just have to check each character and not just adjust all of them blindly the same way.

Not really. Mutants & Masterminds, Villains & Vigilantes and Superworld all provide for Supers to be no faster than normals, and for agents to be faster than Supers for whom DEX and SPD aren't part of their power suite. In my view, this can easily be viewed as consistent with the comics, or with dropping Champions DEX and SPD across the board. Thugs with guns don't seem to experience any problems hitting many supers for whom DEX and SPD aren't part of a power suite (although hurting them is another thing entirely). Many "normal human" Supers seem much faster and more agile than their superhuman colleagues (Daredevil, for example, is top of the line).

Don't know about Superworld, but you are right about M&M and V&V. Especially V&V. M&M does it the same way it works pretty much in D&D, so even those characters are typically going to be a bit better than normal though as the typical D&D character is a bit better than normal. The original Marvel game was also pretty good at keeping things fairly normal when they should be normal too.

These are figures that few normal humans exceed. "Maxima" is more of an absolute, which is misused in Hero parlance. Hero made the decision, way back in 1e, that even slow Supers were exceptionally agile and swift compared to the man on the street.

I addressed this already in my previous post.

Yup. That is the benchmark of the mainstream CU. Because DEX and Speed are inextricably linked to combat effectiveness, they rise up to make the Supers more impressive. Nothing stops you from setting the benchmarks in your game at lower levels, but this is more woprk than following 25+ years of established precedent.

Except tons of work. As mentioned before you can't change all characters blindly. It may work for a lot, but not all. And there are a few times you would really have to adjust levels and such too, besides just the extreme cases. For instance the Rainbow Archer I think when I last saw her had like a 35 Dex, Taking that down even 8 points would give her a 27 Dexterity. And then she had like 8 levels with her bow on top of that. If the standard character was changed to reflect more of a human range, and all you did was take her Dex does the same as everyone else, not only would she still hit all the time, but no one would ever hit her either.

This establishes "different". It does not establish "worse". Your example of the Flash, for example, indicates his DEX is below human maximum. How many huimans do you know who can dodge not only bullets, but even light? That seems like a far cry from "around human max".

OK two things on this. If a 4 is set to normal human maximum (fully understanding that truely exceptional humans can go beyond this slightly) and a Hero who having a 4 in that stat is about as low as a hero can go and still be effective, than that does mean that only the heroes that are worst at that statistic (IE those with a 4 in it) will be at human maximum. (I agree it is unfortunate Hero Games decided to use the term maximum to discribe what isn't a maximum, but that was their decision, though in their defense Ibelieve it was suppose to be an actual maximum when it was first developed. I think they only changed it, when people kept saying, "He's supposed to be a normal human, how can his Dex be this high?".

The other thing I am going to say is in regards to the Flash example. Flash in DC Heroes, could not dodge bullets based off his Dexterity. You seem to know some of the DC Heroes rules, so you should know that was all based off his Superspeed power, which when used for Dexterity gave him superhuman levels of dexterity. His normal dexterity though was well within the human range for that game. I believe it was a 6. (For those that need to know, in the old DC Heroes game, Superspeed like all abilities were purchased in APs, and the APs of Superspeed could be used to replace either his dexterity for hitting and getting hit, or in place strength for damage purposes. Other side effects of those replacements would not work, so the speedster could not lift more by using Superspeed in place of his strength, just do more damage.)

Hero certainly has the choice to change the baseline. But, if they do, then most players who are familiar with Champions have trouble adapting. And then there is still the problem with either having to modify all your existing PC's and NPC's yourself, and altering the ones in any prior edition book you decide to use. I think maintaining the baseline people are used to, and leaving it to individual GM's and players to modify them, if they so desire, is the superior approach. After all, it really is as simple as just subtracting 9 DEX and 2 SPD from every character.

Close, but not completely. Each character would have to be looked at inividually, as I mentioned before or you would eventually end up with abberations that could hurt the balance of your game. Sure you could just do it, and then when you saw the abberation you could make corrections at that time, but you may not notice how good one character still is, until he has been in a fight a few rounds. It is easy to make the change then as well, but its still a pain and you generally end up just saying the heck with it, and going with the standard they have always used. Though that is if you just work up a standard mechanic for it. If you do all the work ahead of time, then it could work.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

I'm getting the impression you're equating Human Characteristic Maxima with "the best human can achieve sans superpowers' date='" and that's not the case at all. HCM is [u']not[/u] a cap unless a GM makes it so. A SPD 4 HCM simply means characters exceeding that number must pay double price for each point of SPD beyond HCM, so it's entirely plausible even some rare "normal" humans exceed this point with sufficient training and/or talent. I doubt most Hero players would argue with giving Bruce Lee a SPD 5 or even SPD 6 despite the fact we know he wasn't superhuman.

 

I'm sure there's more than a bit of SPD inflation in many Champions games; and certainly there's room for abuse. OTOH, it's a game about flying people who wear spandex, bounce bullets off their chests, and shoot beams of energy from their hands. In that context, worrying about the "unrealism" of high SPD seems a bit silly.

Yes, I understand that. That has been the case since 4th edition I believe... This is actually one of the problems with that. There is no hard edge to human ability. It is actually possible for a "normal" human to have a 12 Speed, 40 Dex, and 50 strength or even greater than that based on the rules. So we cannot even go into that. All we CAN discuss is based off the normal characteristic maximum set in the game. Since it is there, and it is the very rare human indeed who is beyond it, and since they do have stats at times for Olympic level gymnasts and such that fall within the category of human maximum, I just find it a bit silly that you will rarely find a hero or villain that fall within this range. I mean, can't they make a character that developed superhuman strength, without saying effectively that he is also better than a gold medalist in dexterity for no reason whatsoever? That is all I mean.

The "mean" for some characteristics (Mostly dexterity and speed) is very skewed in the Champions Universe, and always has been. It would make it very hard to play a typical teenager who discovers his mutant powers of shooting lasers from his eyes. Either he would seriously be outdone in the superhero realm, since he would probably have a Dex of around 13-15, and a Speed of 2-3. (not to mention a higher PD and ED) Or he would seriously outdo other teenagers, since not only would he be able to shoot lasers from his eyes, but he would also have a dexterity over 20, Speed of 5 or 6, and a PD and Ed much higher than other teenagers that would generally have their stats fall more in line with the first example.

Re: Flying out of a moving vehicle

Most movement powers can be used to oppose other movement.

 

The complicated way?

 

Find the jet's movement in terms of the PC's SPD. Say this is a SPD 3 jet moving 150", and your PC is SPD 5. 3x150=450"/Turn. 450"/5 = 90"/Phase.

 

Next, terminal velocity in air is 30"/segment, which is what drag will reduce the unpropelled PC to. 30x12=360"/Turn. 360"/5=72"/Phase.

 

So the PCs are shooting forward 72"/Phase and will continue at that rate unless some force is exerted against their forward momentum. And they're falling. Or they would be, except the telekinetic PC has flight.

 

He can maintain altitude normally, and resist forward momentum with his flight. First phase, he can drop to 62". Second, 52". Third, 42", etc.

 

And people say Champions is math intensive.

 

As if.

Heh, you got the numbers exactly right. Both Speed on the vehicle and for the character. Were you there?

Re: Move-Through Broken?

Psst. Don't use noncombat velocity for move- combat maneuvers. It riles the semantics nuts.

 

(But don't tell the permissivists that I made that suggestion, or they'll think I think there's things the Hero System can't do!)

 

This point has been mentioned before, and even discussed at some length in some of the earlier editions. For a difference of (in your example) 2 DC's on a low CV maneuver, is it really worth worrying?

 

The maneuver is balanced for the costs. If you have a character you feel does too little damage on the maneuvers based on their movement speed, I recommend buying up some DCs of attack to be used only with movement maneuvers.

 

If you feel the lower speed character ought not suffer as much of a CV penalty due to lower speed, buy up some CSLs with move- maneuvers, is what I suggest.

 

See, although the Hero System can do anything, the real beauty is that for a few points more, it can do anything the way you feel is right.

OK, in the EXAMPLE their is only a difference of 2 DC, but when the example varies greatly then the varience changes quite a bit. And the point isn't that the slower character gets 2 more DC out of the maneuver. The point is the character that SHOULD have the greater attack based on velocity, since it is a velocity based maneuver, comes out with less damage instead of more. So even when comparing it this way, the difference is quite a bit more than 2 DC. I can go into further detail if necessary.

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

The problem with speed is largely GM control. In a game where the GM strictly limits speed allowing only an occasional high speed character it doesn't matter, but try playing a speed 2 or 3 character in a game where all the other players are speed 4 and you will get sucked into the Speed vortex.

 

I had an anti-terrorist character years ago (Danger International) Speed 3, no problems until I took him to Dundra Con and got into a game rescuing POW's, most of the other players came from the same GM's game, the "slow" characters were Speed 4, and there was even a "rich guy" who was speed 5. Needless to say I had a pretty boring time even the cannon fodder was as fast or faster than me. In my game at home all the PC's were 3's except for a martial artist type who was 4.

 

I agree with your "chart" BTW, unfortunately not everyone uses it.

At the very least, I partially agree with you. However, I do not think GM control is completely to blame. I actually think more of the blame resides with the Hero Games company itself. They set out these guidelines for what is normal characteristics, and then, at least with Champions, those guidelines are thrown out the window completely in their own worlds. Now in all Superhero games, the heroes are typically faster and better than normal, but the amount better than normal in the Hero system is somewhat beyond reason. I mean a 4 is normal character maxima for Speed, but I haven't seen but a few supervillains or heroes with that low of a Speed, and none lower. Typically in Champions supplement a SLOW brick MAY have a 4 speed, but more than likely a 5 speed. So that means, even the slow an clumsy bricks, who are like a bull in a china shop have a higher Speed Stat than a Navy Seal. And don't get me started on Dex, that is just as bad or worse than Speed Even Bricks in a Champions supplement are generally on par with what, by the book, would be an Olympic Level Gymnast or better.

In most other games, as I said super hero and villains are also better than average, but the typical hero and villain aren't better that the maximum a human is capable of. For instance in DC Heroes human average or Dex was 2 and maximum was 10. It had a wide range allowable. Their characters generally followed this. Now in DC though, their power range was through the roof, so at the upper ends most people were better than human average, and a lot were better than human maximum, but those people were like Superman and such, who ARE supposed to be better than olympic gymansts and such. Others were done like they should be. Flash for instance, had a high Dex, but wasn't near human maximum. Most human level characters were lower than maximum, with only the very best reaching it. In Champions it is the reverse. Only the very worst are as low as human maximum.

In short, (too late) I've tried running games where Speed and Dex are more in line with what the rules say they should be, but most players who are familiar with Champions have trouble adapting, and all end up with around a 4 anyway. And then there is still the problem with either having to make all NPC's up yourself, or altering the ones in any book you decide to use. I think I am going to try it again in my next campaign though. I'll probably come up with a chart similar to the one presented here for all stats.

In a recent session, my players and another superteam were in an out of control jet traveling at a velocity of 150" per round. A player used his telekinesis to grab up several other PCs and carry them from the jet. The problem was his flight speed is 10", and he was leaving a jet going at 150" I know he doesn't drop immediately to 10", but he can't really use the Jet's speed anymore after he leaves it. What I determined was that he immediately dropped to half the jets velocity, and that he would continue to halve it until he reached a velocity he could control. Until then, it took all of his time to try and keep some control of the flight.

How would some of you handle a similar situation?

I just had a thought concerning the maneuver Move-Through. It works this way -V/5 OCV and does Str+(V/3) damage. Now this actually concerns ALL maneuvers that deal with velocity damage, but I first thought about it concerning Move-Through. The way velocity is determined is the real problem. Typically, if character performs a move-through on another being you get their movement speed, and use that to determine how much "V" is. This however is an inaccurate account of how fast a character is really going though. I was thinking of making a speedster with lower than standard movement, but higher than standard speed. This would make him travel at the same actual velocity, but be able to act more often.

I may not be explaining my point here very clear, but perhaps an example will clear it up. (Quickness has a speed of 12 and runs at 15" per round and times 8 noncombat multiplier. He has an actual combat velocity of 54 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 432 KM/H. Tere Trax has a speed of 5 and runs at 20" per round and times 8 noncombat mutiplier. She has an actual combat velocity of 30 KM/H and an actual noncombat velocity of 240 KM/H. Quickness is actually almost twice as fast as Tera Trax. However, when figuring out how much either one would do with a move through, you use their personal movement speed during their phase. Their Speed characteristic is not considerred in figuring the damage. So Quickness would have -3 OCV and do Str+5d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-24 OCV and Str+40d6 noncombat), and Tera Trax would have -4 OCV and do Str+7d6 damage with a combat speed move through (-32 OCV and Str+53d6 noncombat). Even though, Quickness actually has more velocity, the way the system works Tera Trax has more velocity for the sake of the maneuver.

The problem with this is that it would end up being too complicated to have the PC decide on how fast they are moving and then figure that in with their Speed characteristic in order to figure out what their actual velcity is. But with keeping things the way they are, if you have two speedsters that both can travel at the same velocity, the one with the lower speed actually has a greater damage output from a single attack than one that has a higher speed. Sure the one with the higher speed can hit more often and would make them, more than likely do more overall damage, but if the slower one would be able to hurt some characters the faster one couldn't.

Re: How to kill characters?

I'd say I have some sympathy for your position, but the player may have a case as well. A couple of things you don't mention above:

 

- Would you allow a similar Megascale power to remove characters from combat if proposed in a PC build? I'm not a big fan of abilities that are OK for my villains, but not for your heroes.

 

- Did the villain use this power on anyone else? If not, why not? It seems that knocking many of the heroes far away, then finishing one or two off while they try to get back, would be a very effective tactic. Using this solely against the Birck, with no plausible reason, suggests this could be a "GM vs Player" moment. I'm not saying it was, but it would be easy for a player to perceive it as one, especially when you've already expressed some annoyance with the player.

Well, if built correctly I would allow it. I tacked on a number of limitations, some of which I received no points for, including making it scalable, so the higher end of the megascale only effected those with 30+ defenses. It just seemed most reasonable to me. You hit a baseball with a bat and it goes flying, but if you hit a baseball sized and shaped pillow it would only go a few feet. Also the villain had to push to use it, and was at a lower OCV with it, and had to concentrate. Given all of these I would allow it. There are always ways around things for a GM. If the plot to an adventure is to stop a villain, knocking him 2 miles away, doesn't stop him. It just makes the fight more mobile. If knocking the villain 2 miles away kept the villain from reaching his goal, then kudos to the player. My players have occasionally spoiled things I thoroughly intended to happen.

As for using it only against the Brick, that was all explained in game, by the bad guy if nothing else, when he went up to his twin and said, "I'll take care of you later." Payback (the villain) sees Thumper (the brick) as the only one of the group that posed even the slightest threat.

That has changed, since the mentalist in the group nearly stunned him though. I built Payback without a lot of the typical staples of a mastervillain. Instead of making him have a high mental defense I gave him none, but he has a high Ego of 20, and a mental damage shield he can activate in order to keep mentalists on their toes as to when they should attack him. It is called, "Mind Like a Steel Trap". This will actually prove very hazardous to the mentalist in our group as all of her mental powers work on a range of touch. Plus she has a telepathy damage shield that means whenever she touches someone she automatically reads their minds. It is always on, so the damage shield Payback has can be quite an attack used against her.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

Well, we had our first session using my new Trauma Damage system as a house rule, and it seemed to work fine. The only person that was even effected by it was Viperia who, are you ready for this, was one shotted (nearly) by a middleweight female brick NPC. She did a noncombat movethrough on her at 80 of velocity for -16 OCV, and rolled a 3. She only has 50 Strength, but concentrated on really good defenses. She did 121 point of damage to Viperia, and knocked her back 7". She didn't take much in the way of damage, because her own defenses were so high. (She has weak power, weak combat abilities, but awesome defenses.) Anyway, even with that Viperia would have taken 1 Body, but because of my trauma damage system she took 2 instead. So it is not NEARLY as bloody as a lot of people thought it would be.

When I start my next campaign I think will include as house rules, not only my Trauma damage system, but I will probably also incude a version of the rules Chris Goodwin came up with for eliminating the distinction between normal and killing attacks. Probably, I will use the -2 to turn your attack into a killing attack, and everyone would automatically have, 1/2 their normal defenses as resistant defenses.

Re: How to kill characters?

OK, So I may be jumping the gun on this right now, but I may actually just go ahead and dump the game on account of whininess. Right now I have 4 players, because one is away for a while. In our last session the big bad I built, who is the more powerful evil half of our brick, demonstrated his power by getting rid of the only PC he felt was at least a little bit of a challenge. Namely, our Brick. He hit him with a pushed megascale punch, and sent the brik flying out of the combat by about 3 KMs. When the player built his character, he sacrificed moevement powers to be tougher in combat, and so only has 10" in flight and no noncombat multiple. So the fact that it woud take him so long to get back to the fight is a fault with the build of his character. All the players were also playing an NPC, as well as their PCs for this particular fight, since they were teamed up with a neighboring supergroup for this fight. So its not like he was left out of the fight comepletely.

However, because I deemed to use an ability that the villain had, I got nothing but whining out of it. That was forgivable at first, because that is only expected at times, during a game, when things don't the players way.

What wasn't acceptable so far though, was the player that caused the big stink was out this last game, and the game before. (The game before because of his whining, and this one beause his work had him out of town.) Anyway, he has finally started responding to emails again, and sent an "apology?" email to the group where he explained why he got so upset in the previous emails he had sent. (Though there was no apology, just an explaination which is why I used the questionmark) When someone informed him of the basics of what happened while he was gone, he only focused on the brick getting sent flying because the villain had a powerful attack. Like I said at the beginning, I may be jumping the gun, but if I get much more whining about this stuff, I might just end the game without a wrap up, and tell them it is because they can't seem to handle a real game with real challenges. Then I will go about ooking for some real players.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

2) Powerhouses could really shread not-plot-crucial inanimate items with horrible DCVs. A 60 STR brick could do 24 BODY to "the broad side of a barn," or an armored truck or personnel carrier as the case may be.

This is also good. But to note the Brick that you are talking about getting a critical on another brick for maximum damage, will still not generally do even a point of body damage, since that brick will generally have more than 24 defenses. And that is with maximum damage. He may do body to a martial artist though.