Willpower

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

The DC Heros game had this concept. All attacks were non-lethal unless specifically announced to be lethal by the character. This shift to lethal combat was obvious to all observers. The designers' rationale?

 

While it may seem strange for guns to do non-lethal damage, a quick playtest watching Batman get reduced to the Batstain by three thugs with handguns indicated the need for this approach.

 

Actually, guns in DC Heroes automatically did killing damage, though you could buy it differently, but a lot of weapons and such had that distinction built in. Several types of attacks, like there Claws power automatically did killing damage.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

I've just had a brief flicker of an idea about taking away the distinction between Normal Attacks and Killing Attacks as separate Powers. You buy your Power, and under most circumstances it works as an Energy Blast. You can, if you want, use your DCs as Killing damage, but you are making a conscious effort to kill someone, and are generally attempting to use it lethally (attempting to target someone's head, or a brick "rending" by shredding something). Maybe you get freebie killing attacks against inanimate objects. Maybe Killing Attack is a maneuver with a -2 OCV penalty.

 

This also means that, for instance, guns and knives do Normal damage most of the time, but if you have someone Covered with one, it automatically does Killing when it goes off.

 

As this was a bare flicker of an idea, it isn't fleshed out; this has all been thinking out loud.

 

Edit: This might also mean that you don't buy Resistant Defenses separately, but, say, 1/3 of your normal Defenses is automatically Resistant. If you want to buy body armor, you'd instead buy extra PD and ED (perhaps with a Limitation, Only To Increase Resistant Defenses). This also means that under most circumstances, bricks can bounce bullets, but a cop pointing a gun at him means something.

 

Actually that is really good for an idea. Maybe if I was just starting out my campaign I might use something like this. It does need a bit of fleshing out, but this was sort of the way I came up my house rule. It is more suitable to add to an existing game, as it doesn't change as much, but this might be better if worked out fully, and implemented at the start of a campaign. This is actually very much like how the old DC Heroes game worked BTW. I like the implementation of the -2 penalty for switching to killing damage BTW. It also makes it to where you wouldn't use killing most of the time, but you can when you really want to. It also makes covering someone better, or someone strong grabbing you something to be feared as then they can switch to killing the phase after they grab you.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

I like the idea of the CON roll though' date=' because it allow people to take damage from NND attacks that mechanically can't kill someone but in the real world might actually do so (like a taser gun). May not be appropriate for all games, but it could add a nice flavor to some.[/quote']

 

I thought about that too. I know if you use too much tranquilizer in a tranquilizer dart you can kill someone too. Things don't just knock people out in the real world. A case could definitely be made for allowing NND's to even do body with the Con roll, or if they take more Stun from them than their Con. I am not going to be doing that in my game, because I don't really think that level of realism is needed in my game, but It is a definite thing that could be added to such a house rule.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable to set a minimum BODY damage rule if that's the kind of game you and your group want to run, and your method seems as reasonable as any other. The only hesitation I might have over basing the threshold number on a character's CON is that CON is already used for Stunning someone, which is a significant negative effect in itself. Adding another severe penalty to it may lead your players to start a CON arms race.

 

Another possibility would be to use a Characteristic Roll. Whenever the character takes X amount of STUN after defenses, he has to roll against the appropriate Characteristic (CON or whatever you choose to use) or suffer one BODY in damage. In this case you could go back to the Fuzion example of adjusting for every 5 points in STUN damage, but use that as a penalty to the roll, i.e. -1 for every 5 points. The advantage to this is that characters with larger attacks would be more likely to dish out lethal damage, but characters with higher Characteristics, as more powerful heroes and villains tend to have, would be less likely to fail their rolls.

 

I like this idea, but have a couple problems with it. First off, it would definitely slow down combat, which is already slow enough. Second, if you choose Con, which is most appropriate typically (Though I could see Ego for mental attacks that do body damage), than you still have that Con Race. (I am not actually sure if it would start a Con Race. Being stunned is already a hazard everyone tries to avoid, and I think they would still want to avoid that more than this, as with how it is built, it shouldn't add TOO much body damage.) The only other problem I have with it, is it doesn't add a scalable affect to the amount of Body damage taken. I have seen people get hit for 150 points of stun and no body damage. I think based on how much stun damage they take, the amount of body taken should go up too. For instance if someone with a 30 Con took a 50 stun attack, under my system they would take 1 Body, which is the same they could take with your system if they failed a 5- roll (9 + 30/5 = 15- minus 50/5=10 for a total of 5-). However in my system if that same person is hit for 150 points of damage, they then take 5 points of Body minimum, but in yours they still take only 1 if they fail a roll of 3-. (Minimum roll, since 150/5 would be -30 to a Con roll of 15-.)

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

Killing averages 14 BOD, actually.

 

 

 

That's an average of 2 BOD per DC, which isn't a lot different from doubling BOD done.

 

 

 

Increase BOD done and objects become much easier to demolish. Entangles and Force Walls must be restructured or they become useless, and aurtomatons need similar revisiting. The ripple effect is substantial.

 

Yes to all... My mistake on the math, and I didn't think about other effects besides KB, that just seemed most obvious to me. This is actually the main reasons I didn't want it to be extra damage, but a Body Damage Minimum. Of course I haven't said it, but it should carry over, that this should apply to all attacks that do body, and not just to normal attacks. We can call Trauma damage, which is just a fancy way of saying body damage minimum, so if the person already takes body damage from the attack, it doesn't do extra damage, just insures that at least this amount gets through.

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

How about a cap on defenses? Or' date=' normal attacks do DC times X BODY where X between 1.5 and 2?[/quote']

 

Capping defenses would be too much if you capped them low enough for normal damage to have a chance of doing body, unless you did as someone else suggested and have people cap just a portion as not protecting body. Though, then the game would probably get too deadly, as killing attacks do more body than normal attacks do. Not by much, but still...

 

Normal atacks doing time X BODY might work, with only one problem. Normal attacks would then do more damage than killing attacks.

 

For instance, 12DC attack does on average: Normal 12 body, Killing 15 body.

 

If normal is times 1.5 then Normal goes to an average of 18 body. One thing I tried in the past that was similar to this was to change how body was counted. A roll of 1 became 1 body, 2-5 became 2 body, and a roll of 6 became 3 body. The other main problem with increasing the body done besides that normal damage then does more damage than killing attacks is that knockback is increased as well. Killing attacks take this extra into account by adding a dice, so that might be fixed the same way if you increased the body of a normal attack as well.

Re: I disagree

 

Well' date=' I meant to include "with Hero Designer, if you have it" in there. If there's no Hero Designer to do the math for you, yeah, creating a character off the bat can be pretty complicated and weird.[/quote']

 

Even with Hero Designer it can be. The program has some funky flaws. The two members in my group new to the system used it, and it wouldn't let them do some very basic things, and apparently made them do some others in ways that don't actually work by the rules. I had to go through and fix them manually by hand with the book at my side so I knew I was smarter than the program.

Re: 4d6 Major Transform: d20 Gamer to Hero Gamer!

 

Put 5ER on a scale, and all three core D&D books on the other scale. Then look at them and quote Stan the Man, "Nuff' Said".

 

No wait, that will likely scare them off... Use Hero Lite instead, then spring all the other rules on them like a guru afte their converted. Then you'll have devoted followers without paying the points for them

Re: House Rule: Adding body damage to a game

 

Well' date=' Superboy-Prime (as he was dubbed) had gone quite crazy ... I'm reasonably certain he had a killing attack. Then again, I'd give Superman a 'rending' Handtohand Killing Attack ... he just never uses it for anything other than tearing open walls or beheading robots. That and I think, with that Earth's version of Superboy, he probably had a STR around 150.[/quote']

 

Hmm... I actually think a direct convertion would be even stronger than that. The only two I remember off the top of my head from the old DC Heroes game was pre and post crisis Superman. Post Crisis, his strength equals 125. PreCrisis strength would have been 250. The old DC Heroes game had the same basic strength chart champions had only each point doubled the weight instead of each 5 points, which made it easy to convert things, Pre had a 50 and Post had a 25. Though judging by the fight the two had in this current Crisis I would say both had a very similar strength.

 

It depends on the kind of game you want to run, really. I prefer to keep body damage rare, and don't like the present comic book trope of 'every issue has a crippling injury or dismemberment'. I'm quite happy to keep Body damage rare.

 

That is very true. However, I am fine with a body damage being rare thing. Even given these rules would be somewhat rare, how often do people get stunned. Probably once or twice a session at most in a typical session. That is only 1 or 2 body, which is hardly a crippling injury. Personally I just think that in a straight up fight, with two people without killing attacks their should be at least SOME danger of taking serious injury. But it is very true that this type of thing is very much based on what you want for your own game.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

So when things finally go down I will you be posting the conclusion? I doubt I’m the only one curious to see how you go about it and what all your players reactions are not just the two dissidents.

 

Sure, I'll try too. Though as I mentioned it is probaby a ways away, not too far, but at least a few months.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Having read back over this thread' date=' I noticed that the majority of posts have indeed attempted to give you useful suggestions as to how to go about this. Most of the "talk to your players" advice has been specifically to find out what type of character death they'd be satisfied with. Only a few try to persuade you to take an alternate tack, and even some of those continue with "If you insist on doing this, here's what I recommend..." type advice. [/quote']

 

Yeah I know it actually worked this time. YEA!!! It just started off the same way it did before, which is why I got pessimistic.

OK, I just thought of a house rule I could add to my games. I keep reading comics today, and people seem to do a lot of body damage at times. (In the latest Crisis in DC, when the original Superboy got into a fight with the Titans, he was mopping the floor with them, but worse than that he was literally killing them, when he didn't want to because he had too much power for them. I know some people would say, oh that could be done with a killing attack. Well, DUH I know this, but SERIOUSLY, this was Superboy, aside from his heat vision, I do not think he would have a killing attack on his sheet. Not only that, if he did, he certainly wouldn't have to use it.

 

I only bring this up to illustrate a basic point most people know about Champions. Unless you are using a killing attack, and typically even then, you aren't generally going to be doing body damage to other supers. Unless, you have a huge attack, and they have really low defenses. However, examples of what body damage would look like you see in comics all the time. And rightly so. Characters, should be able to die from a really good pounding, even when there are no killing attacks used. But that generally won't happen in hero, where the typical Super has at least 18 to 20 PD/ED, and the typical damage is generally not much more than 12d6. A REALLY good 12d6 roll may do some body damage to a person with 18 defenses, but in my opinion it shouldn't be limited in that fashion.

 

I know, I know, this was done on purpose, when Hero was designed, because heroes, and villains don't die very often in the comics and this was meant to reflect this. The comics have changed drastically though, but Hero remains the same. The short stint with the Fuzion rules changed that with the 5 Stun equaled 1 body thing, but that worked better because body was equal to stun so it washed out fairly well. You can't do 5 stun equals 1 body in Hero, because heroes in Hero have so much less Body than stun. Plus I think it may be too much of a random number. Why 5? Why not 6, or 10. Just because it was easy? Probably.

 

Well, I had an idea that may allow you to put body back into the game, even when doing normal damage, even against tough foes, which works, provides an actual number that works with the individual characters being damaged, and isn't so overwhelming that it will kill people all the time. I was thinking, as a house rule, it might work well to have people take a point of body when they take as much stun from one attack as their Constitution. That way, if someone is hit with an attack that does 100 Stun, but no body, they take at least some body for the massive damage.

 

We could also set it up, that it doesn't ADD body damage, only provides a minimum body damage done, that way if someone did take 100 stun, and 10 body from the attack, they wouldn't take extra body on top of that.

 

We could also push it further and add additional body damage minimums for damage beyond that. I have two trains of thought with that. The first is that for every amount equal to their Constitution taken you add 1 body. I am not sure if that is good enough though, as you won't generally take too many multiples of your Constitution in one attack generally. Though that might be why it works. The other train of thought is to go back to the 5 stun equals 1 body thing, so every 5 stun over your Constitution does 1 body damage minimum. That might be too much though, so we might want to go to 10 to 1, or just stick with Con damage in stun as a multiple. What does everyone think?

Re: combat calculation

 

Agreed. This is probably the easiest calculation. And, as GM, you don't have to disclose the opponent's DCV. Of course, a savvy PC will be able to figure out the DCV of a target in a short time.

 

PC: Hmm... I just missed against a max DCV of 8, but I hit last phase against a DCV of 7. I wonder if that villain has a DCV of 7?

 

That is a good way to do it. I was going to mention the math was wrong, but it turns out, MY math was wrong, as I was taking the result and thinking of that as the or less needed. That was shearly out of habit from the way the book mentions it though. It would be cool to add that number to character sheets. Instead of just saying OCV, you could add the modified OCV number so you can remember it easily. Then you just have to add any levels of other modifiers.

Re: How do you keep your dark knights from going "squish"?

 

Well, for one I at least try to make sure all of the players are playable, and at least somewhat defensable against most attacks. At least against most attacks that aren't meant to really kill supers a lot. That is why, when describing my campaigns I try to have a range of appropriate defenses. I know it keeps from being able to play in DC type games at least somewhat, because their range is so great that if someone like a normal was hit full force by someone even in the remote Superman level power range, they would be totaly wiped. But then I have found when you do play at those levels everyone invariably ends up wanting to play a character in the Superman level power range, because if you have a huge fight, and that level of diversity, typically the lower powered characters end up feeling there isn't much they can do. And if you have a fight in the lower power range, then the higher powered characters end up dominating so much, that the lower powered characters still feel useless. Mixing it up doesn't work either, because at that point the only fight that really counts is the high powered one. (Example: Batman versus Joker, Superman versus Doomsday in a big fight. Batman beats Joker. Yea! OK, Doomsday beats Superman... OK, good luck Bats. Other way around. Joker beats Batman. Boo! Superman beats Doomsday... You really think Joker has a chance?

 

This just shows why in Champions I use a range of appropriate power levels and defenses so that all characters can work together. You will still have some people that out power others, but it won't be so overwhelming that the other guy has no chance at all. I ran a game one time, where someone played a Dark Knightish type guy, who investigated a warehouse, only to find that was where Eurostar was planing their heists. He flubbed one of his rolls and was spotted. Big fight ensued. Normally, this guy fight on equal footing with only a few members of Eurostar, but he was at least built to a good enough level that he could affect most members at least somewhat, and take a few shots even from Durak. (That was his name back then.) This Dark Knightish type guy, fought like the blazes this time though. It wasn't that the dice were with him, he was just really trying to use his surroundings and fight smartly. He did, and ended up defeating all but one member of Eurostar before finally being overwhelmed, and that was only because it was Durak that was left, was untouched, and he only had a few stun left at that point.

 

There have been many times people have approached me with a character build and I have had to tell them that they would get killed unless we added a bit more defense somewhere. Typically, they do and it works alright. One time I had someone ignore what I said. After the first fight that group was in, and he was taken out first thing, by a lot, and out the whole fight, he wanted to readjust his character.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Cardinal rule of role playing:

 

Sorry, one last thing. I, as a GM, try to guide people into making better characters, but it is they themselves that make and run the characters they want to run. Aside from keeping the characters in my guidelines and trying to make sure two don't overlap too much, the rest of making characters goes to the players. Now I manage to keep things from getting silly (unless it is a silly campaign) but I try and let people play what they want. It is their characters, not mine. It just so happens that some of the concepts aren't the best. The player with the problem's concept was decent, it was basically just a martial artist, who developed into a sort of martial arts speedster. But he kept trying to throw these kind of silly asian influenced powers in. They weren't really asian influenced, which is why I call them silly. But if the player wants it, and can fit it in with their concept somewhat, and it doesn't violate my rules for the game, then it is fine for them to make the character that way. I don't run the game through martial law, and only allow characters to be made the way I, being great and powerful, would make them.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Second cardinal rule of GM-ing:

 

It's your game -- so it's your fault if you let stupid characters in that ruin it. Fix the problem diplomatically, but if that doesn't work, [bold]engineer a situation and waste 'em.[/bold] If your players can't handle the loss of the occasional character, they aren't worth the trouble -- so lose them.

 

Final comment:

 

Your posting makes you sound like you are desperate to have the companionship of these people. If that's the case, you should find something else to play that is less taxing for you and more fun for everyone. If that's not the case, there are plenty of other players out there -- go find better ones than you have.

 

Ok, I'll address these. First off, the second part of your second cardinal rule is what I am attempting to do here. That is why I made this post.

 

As for being desperate for the companionship of "these people". One of them, the less vocal, who isn't the real problem has been my friend since before high school, so it isn't as simple as you indicate. He is a friend, not someone that I roleplay with that I am hoping will be my friend... "Oh please be my friend?" What do you think I am 13? As for being desperate, no, this is a bit of a different situation that most people with a campaign, as the game night is not soley mine. The game night we have, for a long time was run mainly by another friend of mine, who currently is away for the better part of a year. So in the meantime, I have picked up my campaign again, which I ran occasionally when the first GM, who is currently gone, wasn't running. Also, I am now running this alternately with another who runs a different game, when I am not running. So it isn't like I can completely change the landscape by kicking people out and inviting new ones. Sure I don't need the one who started the problem, and that would be fine, he would simply play in one game and not in mine, but I cannot simply invite new people all the time as we then typically open up the other games being played to them as well. We don't HAVE to, it is just easier that way. (I am married, and have a kid, so I can only game once a week, so we end up sharing games.)

 

Finally, if I were to bend to your suggestion to just kick them out of the group rather than give people what they want. How would that make me a better GM. In my personal opinion, a GM doesn't just run a game, he leads it. As such, he or she has to take the feelings of their players into account. That doesn't means letting them walk all over you, but taking what they feel into account. If they are fine with things ending one way, but not another, then I do my best to try and give them what they want. That does not mean I give them 750pt characters, that does not mean I only run scenario's they personally like, though in that situation if you only ran things you liked and didn't care if anyone else had fun, you would have no players. Being a GM has a lot more give and take than some of you are giving it credit for. Trust me I've been GMing for over twenty years.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Do your individual PCs have particular nemeses or Hunteds' date=' villains that they've repeatedly butted heads with over the years and have personal animosity with? These are just the sort of villains that the Supreme Serpent would seek to recruit to augment his own forces in a final showdown with the heroes. Your PCs could go out in a blaze of glory, taking down all their worst foes at once, at the cost of their own lives.[/quote']

 

Thats a good idea, though not many have much in this fashion, since they started as villains. All are hunted by Viper, and I think one or two are actually hunted by the Champions. This are in flux right now, because the Ghost, their Xavier, managed to get one or two of them pardons, but until this point they were all wanted criminals. I was going for a Thunderbolts type campaign, with the distinction being they were all part of Viper instead of being part of a villain team.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Have them wake up as unpowered lunatics in a dreadful Victorian asylum and come to the conclusion that their lives as superheroes were just a glorious shared delusion' date=' now cured by judicious applications of caustic enemas and cold water dowsings. Turn them out into the stinking streets of nineteenth century London and have them play through life as beggars and outcasts until they beg for a change of campaign.[/quote']

 

 

Hehe... Or go the Matrix route, and have them each "Wake up" in a vat of something icky then pour out into a sludge. They find out that the world isn't real and that all the "Heroes"are agents for the computer, whereas most "Villains" are trying to destroy the world to free everyone's minds from the computer. A Third type are people that work for villainous organizations, who have the nack that the world is wrong, but don't know why. They haven't been "freed" yet. The PC's fall in this category because of their association with Viper, but when they broke free of Viper, they weren't freed into the real world which is why they existed for so long as heroes that were thought to be villains.

 

Wow, that is actually pretty good.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Thinking about the exchange, or what we know of it, from the OP.

 

I have to say - they're being childish players. Run them through bank robbery scenario after bank robbery scenario until they get the point that you'd like to change venues. Be blatant - only have six bank maps and cycle through them.

 

Well... It is not that I simply want to change venues. I do, but thats neither here nor there. The campaign itself is approaching the intended conclusion. After that it is possible that we continue the game, but the campaign itself would have to change. They could keep their characters if they want to and the team simply becomes a standard superhero team. The problem I am having is when I even approached the topic of changing to a different campaign, I got shouted at (well, as well as one can shout over email). So I am not set on changing to a different campaign once it is finished, though that is what I would like to do, since that was the original intention. Right now I am simply exploring ways to kill their characters, should I decide to change campaigns after it is done. Which, with the idea of changing the universe itself someone suggested, is looking like a more and more prominent idea.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

The thread should probably be titled "How to ensure that these players will never game with me again."

 

Then your not reading it. Thanks for wasting mine and everyone elses time.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Let me echo the idea of an epic world shaping event as this is as much about changing the feel of the game as a whole as it is offing a couple of characters.

 

A trial beyond their levels where the chance of death is very real and very much a threat to all the players no just the two players seems to be an excellent path. The event can be a lead in for your next campaign, even if they succeed the world has changed, to some extent.

 

Maybe a major political figure dies and this has global ramifications. If they fail the changes are more significant, targeted nukes go off, alien invasion all sorts of nice things have been mentioned. Inevitably deciding what the event and what leads up to this event are in your hands but again my advice is to think epic.

 

Tone, setting all sorts of things can be changed just by a small spark. You just have to sell it. Explain the long term effects of the event even if they succeed and make sure that the player's actions weather they live or die have the sense of an impact on it.

 

Also, if possible don't spring this size event on them. Give it time to build up so that when things finally happen no one is surprised by the scale of the event only the danger of it.

 

Also, before things go down consider as many of the possible outcomes for the story arc and let they players know that after the final session you may need to take a bit of time of to prep the next campaign but the show will go on.

 

I hope that helps, and meets all your criteria.

 

Thats actually really good. Someone else suggested something similar, but I thought it was a bit beyond the scope of thiss campaign. However the more I think about it, the more it isn't. The character that is the brick of the group who used to be a big bad guy first had his accident that diminished his powers when he and a team of Viper agents and villains investigated a mysterious artifact at the bottom of the ocean. Something happened, and Boom all died but him. He was taken down from about 850 pts or more to around 350 and given the mind of a child. I never, ever considerred his character the main character of this campaign, but it could work if I used this artifact to help with something like you are suggesting.

 

Also, my first adventure with the group introduced an entity named Entropy who appeared originally as one very powerful NPC. He took on the whole group. Later they ended up running into hundreds of this Entropy. It turned out that Entropy was an insanely powerful cosmic entity. The individuals of the Earth including the PCs were merely below his level of recognition. Were would be the equivelant of microbes to him. This being they knew of as Entropy they figured out were actually just physical representations of thoughts of the actual being. Basically he was looking for his daughter, Karma, (who I mentioned earlier)who upon her creation, was somehow captured by Viper, and them having her made them unbeatable. Anyone in the outfit, literally got what they wished for. However their were some limits to these wishes, they couldn't simply wish to rule the world for instance. Basically, it allowed all agents and villains in viper to have a cosmic VPP. I could try and work this into the artifact mentioned earlier, maybe the artifact in question holds Karma's mother, contained within, and that is why when Karma came into existance she was vulnerable on Earth.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Ah.

 

From the OP, I think I and others thought you meant you didn't want suggestions that consisted of trying to talk you out of doing it and INSTEAD and ONLY talking to your players about how you want to switch games.

 

Instead you actually just want suggestions about how to kill the characters, avoid any communication with the players about it, and have it look like an accident?

 

Ah.

 

*Exactly*

 

On a side note. I have boached this subject before simply for the sake of fun, and not actually kiling any characters, and I ALWAYS get get everybody and their dogs coming out saying how you shouldn't do it, and just to talk to your characters instead... Even when it is just a theoretical conundrum meant for fun. This was one of the reasons I started off a bit pessimistic about this thread.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

Have the other players decide several options how each other could die, or otherwise leave... Er, each other's characters, I mean.

 

Let the players decide in roleplay which of these ways out they take.

 

Ok, after reading this one, I think I have come up with the reason why a lot of you cannot really understand what I am talking about when I say these guys don't want to switch characters, but have no problem with it if their characters die. One thing I failed to mention about both of these players is that by FAR they are both more experienced at roleplaying in D&D. In fact for the older one, he has never played in Champions until this campaign. As such, they are used to characters dying before making a new one. In Champions however death is typically something that is decided upon by player or player and GM. They do not obviously think in this fashion. At least one of them is much more used to hack and slash, the both are more used to D&D. Maybe now you'll see why they have no problem dying, they just want it to be in the game, not something planned out. Knowing Champions the way I do, it is hard to kill characters though, unless you try to. So the trick if I need to do so, is to try to, without looking like I am trying too.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

I like the nuke idea. I would also consider the giant earth quake device. That goes off the only way to stop California from dropping into the sea is jump down and some how stabilize it. Use a nasty super powerful vampire and eat them. Expose their secret id's and then have villians attack in mass. They die but protect loved ones. A smart villian sets up the traps all over the site of combat. Pc's should go out heroically saving millions if possible. Extra dimensional villians are an excellant choice. See Trigon from the Teen titans. Stop the alien invasion!!

Hope this helps Ferret........

 

Thanks... hehe, and the attacking en mass thing just happened. Not all villains, but all Viper. The villain in question that took over Viper, is basically the more powerful evil twin of our teams Brick. So he took out our teams Brick, got onto the grounds and into the midst of the heroes before attacking them. This was all a distraction so that thousands of Viper agents being led by Viperia could descend upon the base unnoticed. They have nearly killed our teams version of Professor X and the base is nearly destroyed when the our brick finally got back with a neighboring superhero team. They immediately knew this was more than even both teams could handle so a cosmic entity that is a member of the other team tried to teleport all of our team onto their craft. She used area effect though, and Viperia and the villain dupicate of our brick were in the area. (I know that is really hard to actually do, I caveated it for story purposes. Plus it is not technically illegal as it CAN be done if no one resists.) Can we say BIG FIGHT in a small space with not one but two villains in the level of Viperia fighting. Not saying they will win, but they are still just over most of Viper who has probably around a hundred attack vehicles there, and several hundred flying agents. Not to mention the ground agents that seriously outnumber even the other two.

Re: How to kill characters?

 

I have killed several characters in my time in Hero system games, usually with the consent of the players. Generally it was a matter of the players getting tired of the characters.

 

Your situation leaves several questions open.

 

1. Is this the first (or I suppose 2nd) role playing campaign these players have ever participated in? As someone else asked, how old are these players? This sounds like a situation where the players might decide that, if the campaign is ending, that's the end of their roleplaying career. Maybe it's just time for them to stop role playing.

 
The players in question are around 36 or 37 and the other is about 50 to 55. But the older one doesn't appear too experienced in roleplaying games. Not positive though It is the first game I ran him in, I have played with him in a couple of others, one being on Hiatus due to the GM being gone for a while, and the other alternating with mine. The younger player is a more experienced roleplayer, but not top notch. Nothing wrong with that mind you.
 

What do you consider a long campaign? Six months? Six years? Somewhere in between?

 
Six months is a short campaign, very short. Though not unheard of. Six years is about right, though not all campaigns ast that long. This one is only a few years old (2 or 3) and has just recently progressed to the point it could end. It was always considerred that it would end when Viper was defeated. I hadn't planned that Viper would become defeatable this soon, but things that happened in the game made that option, one that made a lot of sense. Still, even though right now it is defeatable, doesn't mean the players WILL succeed at defeating them. Viper needs a strong leader again that knows how to run an organization like this and keep it alive. This is one of the main reasons I may end up having the Supreme Serpent still alive. If he is and helps the heroes defeat the bad guy, then it is possible that he takes control of the organization again, and begins to restrengthen it. It should also be noted that the events that led to the villain taking over occured right after the "Sharper than a Serpents Tooth" storyline, so Viper was already weakened by the conception of Coil.
 

Are there no other role players around to fill in the ranks if these people leave?

 
there are a few, though their schedules may be a problem with ours. It is not simply my game as I split with another so I can't just uproot the night.
 

Some people always want to play the same character. I know people who always play the same character (including appearance, habits, mannerisms, etc), changed just enough to fit the parameters of whatever game they are in. Does this seem to be the case with these guys?
 
Or are they so used to the campaign world that they cannot conceive of playing in anything else?

 

I gave them the option of continuing their characters in a different campaign, albeit that depending on the campaign the characters may need a bit of tweaking. I haven't heard back on that idea. I don't expect to hear from the older player on it for at least a week or two, as he said in his last email, not to bother writing him for a week or two, as the emails will simply be deleted without being read... Yeah, this is the player I don't really mind losing.

 

In fact, I am still not positive if he will be welcomed back at all, since all of this was simply about me mentioning the potential of a new campaign sometime in the future. The other player that explained things to me, said he was under other forms of stress and just dumped it on me, so I may be tolerant...