Willpower

Re: How to kill characters?

First of all' date=' let me note that I have no problems killing characters, esp if it is heroic and makes sense. Given, that, how about something I've done? It was a typical champions mid power game. I (mainly me, but not only) was getting tired and decided to go out with a bang. A interdimensional super-super villian was about to take over "our" dimension and one hero died fighting him .(Brought back, but that is another story.) To do this, he tapped several dimensions he had access to. In effect, the universe (this dimension) had a "radiation accident" - making it normal! No super powers. No super tech. None. Read "our universe". In another, parallel dimension some of this heroes still exist as heros, different but similar. This way characters you like can be kept (but different if need be) and others can be dumped. The back history of the world can be different too. Any thoughts?[/quote']

 

 

Thats a really good idea thanks... Though it might be a bit bigger than this campaign. This campaign centers around Viper, and taking it down. As mentioned in my previous post a villain recently took over Viper from all of its leaders. He is much more aggressive and straight forward, as he is a master Brick supervillain, but thinks very straight forward like most bricks. As such, Viper will, and has already started to succeed in places it once failed simply because he uses overwhelming force. But in doing so, he ends up doing much more harm to Viper than good, as now it becomes much more condensed and actually becomes a beatable entity, whereas it wasn't before. This becomes the "good" ending that is possible now. Though icorporating ideas from this may be doable with some work. Thanks again.

Re: How to kill characters?

QUOTE]

 

BTW Supreme Serpent... Just had to comment because of the name, You just died in my game... A Big Bad Viper Villain teamed up with Viperia in order to kill off all of Viper's leadership and take over. Actually, I haven't completely decided if the Supreme Serpent has been killed or not. He will probably show up again in the campaign to help the players defeat said villain. Though I am not positive.

Re: How to kill characters?

You asked for folks to not reply with "don't do it".

 

Alice suggested talking with your players about HOW to do it.

 

Big difference.

(heavy accent) Nooo.... If you will read your own quotes of what I said, I said, please don't post with responses of, "Don't Do it" you are correct on. But I also said, "Just talk to them" Which is what was suggested.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

Changes inflicted by transformations don't have to be physical to be important. A cosmetic change generally doesn't alter the character sheet in any signifnicant fashion. It doesn't matter if its "physical" or not. Changing a character gender (and altering nothing else about them mechanically) would ususally be considered "Cosmetic"' date=' particularly if they're still recgonizable as themselves. This transformation gives them a 20+ point psych lim until its revered. They are complete and utter cowards, afraid to act, or even face their opponent(s) or behave in a heroic fashion. That's a bit more than a pimple. A +20 Pre attack makes someone scared for.. a moment, this makes them utter cowards until its heals or its reversed. Saying that only effects those that know fear isn't really a limitation, since the exception is going to be pretty rare. It might be "Minor" if they were only afraid of this guy not generally turned into cowards for possible weeks. Cosmetic Tansforms have no effect on how the character functions mechanically, this one would.[/quote']

 

Well, we disagree on how something is defined as to ho much of a change it is. I think keeping someone in a state they are currently in, is less of a change, than changing their gender... Thats just me though I guess. It hardly matters at this point. However, I need to correct you on one point. I wasn't making only affects people who know fear as a limitation. I was using that as an example of why, as a cosmetic transform, it wouldn't affect that type of person. If it was more than cosmetic, I think it would work on people normally even immune to fear.

Re: How to kill characters?

Generally, the best way I've heard of to kill off characters is to talk to their players, find out how THEY feel about it, then give them something heroic to do as their last stand.

 

But then, I've never killed a character (though I've promised it's how stupidity will be rewarded), and I'm not entirely sure I understand why you need to do that. Surely your players can grasp the concept of wanting to run another style or genre, and surely they're smart enough to realize you're not the same GM as the one who annoyed them so badly.

Thank you for proving me right... And how can you say surely they understand, when you certainly didn't understand after I spelled it out. I mean no offense, but it is almost as if you didn't even read before you responded.

OK, first off I know this is a touchy subject. I also want to preface this please don't provide responses like, "Don't do it... Just talk to everyone" sort of thing. If that is your answer, please just don't reply. (Though I know this preface will do no good whatsoever, as many of you will just ignore it, and can't help but try to morally correct something you know nothing about.) Finally I want to say, that I am not necessarily considerring doing this, I just want to have ideas in mind should that become what I want to do.

OK, situation: I have a campaign that has gone on for several years, and it is approaching its planned ending. It is a few months away, but it is still approaching. I sent out a poll asking all of the players what they would want to do when the end comes. The answers included starting one of several different superhero campaigns (Street level, Galactic, Normal, Teenage), start a different type of campaign all together, or continue with the same game, but moving it in a different direction (I.E. keeping the same characters, but the campaign itself changes as their original overall goal had been accomplished.)

As you can see, I did not actually say that I was going to make people make new characters and play a completely different campaign (Though I sort of want to as some of the newer characters are just stupid, concept-wise, and the campaign itself has become boring for me. Though taking it in a new direction may fix this.). However, just mentioning the possibility of the game ending, nearly cost me a player. Now that player I can live without, but another player explained to me the first one's complaint had to do with a previous game they were both in, where the DM started his campaign over several times, making people make new characters all the time, and they both got sick of it and quit. He explained to me that he would also have a problem with that. I have explained to them that at times games end and new ones come out. Though, I don't think they get it still. He said neither would have a problem if their characters were killed in combat or something in the game, having to make new characters, but not simply because the GM wants everyone to make new characters. (Apparently they still can't understand that campaigns end, and new ones begin at times.)

So if I wanted to start a new campaign, and didn't want to risk losing two players, the only way at this point to go about it, is to kill off several players. However, that may not be enough if I wanted a new campaign, as their would still be other players there too. So it may be neccessary to wipe out more than that. Now IF I decided to do this, and it was at the planned conclusion of the campaign, then just the two might be enough, as I could then say, "Well, since the campaign is over, and about half of you have to make new characters, why don't we move on to someting different." With that though, How could I go about killing the characters I need to kill, without looking like I went out of my way to kill them? Any ideas?

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

Does anyone have something to offer as to what should be done with the advantage Attack Versus Limited Defense when you are changing the defense from an exotic defense to a stat like presence? As I am looking at changing this to Presence Drain, as it seems better suited, but I still want it to be defended by Presence, and not Power Defense. Power defense is more for defending against normal drains and this isn't really a power sort of thing, it is just that he is that fearsome. (read 50 presence, and able to go toe to toe with Grond and win, plus he doesn't have a lot of the typical brick weaknesses)

I am planning on adding this Villain to Storn's character thread as I have added some pretty unique abilities to him. This was the only one that required some tweaking.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

Only? Turning a superhero into a coward isn't an "only". That's a very fundamental change. That it isn't visible to the naked eye doesn't make it trivial. Just the opposite.

Well, I disagree. If his attitude was changed completely, so that his friends were his enemies and vice versa, I could see your point, but given that this would only affect people capable of fear, and that it would have to be preceeded by a +20 Presence attack, which would make anyone scared anyway, it is only really just keeping them scared longer. I seriously don't see how it can be argued that this is more than minor.

Everyone always tries to jump on transforms and think the smallest things have to be major, simply because there is now a scale. The scale was included as somethings should be easier than others. Something that just keeps someone in a scared state if they are already scared shouldn't be that difficult. Certainly it shouldn't be as difficult as turning a human into a frog, which is a real use for a major transform... something that ACTUALLY transforms something.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

If you were going to the Transform route' date=' I would definitely says its more the Cosmetic. You're effectively giving the target a knew Psych: Utter Cowardice Ver Fre, Total). I think a Drain vs Pre would work better.[/quote']

 

And how exactly would that be more than cosmetic? I'm sure if the attack only gave someone a pimple, that would be considerred cosmetic, but physically this is even less of a change than that, since this is not a physical change. It only makes them scared. The only way I could see this being anything more than a cosmetic change is if it affected people who had previous disadvantages such as Knows no Fear, or were an automaton or something like that, in which case this power wouldn't affect those such characters as then it would be more than a cosmetic change.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

Yeah' date=' Drain vs the "soft" stats is a frequently overlooked but very powerful option. INT and PRE are very susceptible to this since they only cost 1 point each.[/quote']

 

This is a good suggestion and I will look into it... I didn't respond to the first post, because I don't have H5R, I simply have H5. This has always been sort of a sore point for me, as I absolutely hate it when game companies put out a ruleset, (particularly one that costs as much as H5) and then very shortly afterward try to get all the loyal fans who shelled out tons of dough for their system to have to shell out the same amount or more to get the same rules, with just a few modifications... But you gotta do it, or you'll never get all of the rule changes. I refuse to get H5R on principal alone because of this. I'll end now, cause here come the lemmings to hijack this thread now as they always do because someone has a personal opinion that differs from theirs.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

QFE -- this is very good advice as well. GMing 101 -- players generally do not like having their vicarious ego enablers denigrated or defiled against their wills.

Players also don't like losing fights as well, but this sort of thing happens, and there are times that it is meant to happen. I don't worry much about people's ego being bent a little. If they aren't grown up enough to take it, they can go play D&D.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

Your game, but...unless it's a comedy game or you really know the players are up for that, I'd be careful. Some players would not be happy at having their 'tough superheroes' wet themselves over someone being 'fierce'. It can work with the right group, and can go down easier with some sweetener ("he emits pheromones that work like fear gas" or "manifestation of ancient god of terror") but I'd tread lightly.

 

If it were me, I'd just give him a high presence (40 or so) and PLAY him as super fierce, have NPCs react as incredibly frightened, and let the players decide how the PCs react, subject to normal PRE attacks of course. 40 PRE plus situational modifiers, violent actions and such should be enough to get the point across to most 15-30 PRE heroes.

Needless to say this is a gimmicky power for him, and not really meant for too much use against the PC's, maybe one, though not necessarily. He already has a 50 Presence, though as mentioned a simple presence attack, no matter how high, will not make people coware for more than a few instants, unless the PC's are simply playing it right. This is meant to freak people out for hours, and it won't end up getting overused anyway, because of the limitation that it requires a +20 Presence attack roll. Thats hard to get on 10d6.

Re: Help me make Awesome Presence

+100 PRE Offensive Use Only (-1)

 

Adds 20d6 to your presence attacks, or +70 effect on average.

Thanks for the suggestions, but Presence attacks typically do not work completely as they are supposed to against PC's. Most people I play with, simply say you generally aren't supposed to enforce them as much. Plus, the affect I wanted to add would be to keep people scared for a while.

I am building an ultra villain Brick named Payback. He was actually the old persona of one of the PCs who used to be a bad guy, until he had an accident that not only gave him the mind of a child, but got rid of a lot of his powers. Another villain recently ripped the old Payback from this character, fully powered. Now the team must confront him.

I have him nearly done, but am having a little difficulty with one power. I wanted to give him a power called Awesome Presence. This power works based on the the fact that he is SO fierce he can little turn even fully powered tough superheroes into snivveling cowards. It does not change them physically in anyway, just allows him to scare people so bad that for hours they will do almost nothing but cry and shy away from almost anything.

I built it using transform. Here is the write up.

Transform 9d6: Person into snivveling coward (Cosmetic) Requires a successful Presence attack at +20 (-1/4... I know, but he has a Presence of 50) Area of Effect (One Hex, +1/2... I didn't think hitting with it should be based off of Dex, but based off of ECV also doesn't seem right, and it would make it so expensive that the Transform would be too low to work.) Attack Versus Limited Defense: Presence (+3/4, I am thinking this should maybe be even lower than I changed it too, and maybe even I should make it a limitation, since I am taking a power that originally used an exotic defense, and turned it into one that uses a normal stat everyone has as a defense.) All or Nothing (-1/2)

I am sure there are better ways to do this, and if I wasn't so rusty I could probably find it myself.

Re: What is your most humous story

After the group recovered and the Team leader finished shouting the scenario was restarted with the caveat 'other' team member.

This is funny. Reminds me of the character from my story. I shared this before, but it was years ago, so I think I can share it again.

Flavius, my ancient Roman Gladiator turned modern day brick, was with his group and we were defending the USS Constitution (the ship, not the document) from Eurostar. He was fighting the LeSone, when he dove into the water to get away from him. Flavius jumped in after him, even though he coud barely dogpaddle. The LeSone was getting away, and Flavius couldn't catch him, so I tell the GM, "OK, I grab the biggest thing I can find to smash him with. He looks around... not much there. So I end up smashing LeSone with the USS Constitution, completely destroying the ship we were there to protect.

Re: Multiform and EC

I believe a power that costs no END by default can be added to an EC if purchased with Costs END.

Good, cause thats what I did.

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

Deleted

Re: Disdvantages and Multiform

Sorry, but this sounds like you are using 4th edition rules. 5th does not include anything special on building forms built on more points than the base form. You are also not limited to the same number of points the base character is built on, only the base. The example they use in the book has a 350 pt base form who has several other lesser forms as well as a 400 pt. Tyrannosaur. Also, the Disads are not for free, you have to pay for them as well. At least according to the 5th Edition RB.

Re: 6th Edition Hero System

See' date=' this is a collection of tweaks. Putting these out there without giving the overall philosophy behind the changes isn't, IMHO, helpful. I'd prefer it if people would explain what kinds of changes they want to see, and why, without necessarily going into specifics, except to provide an example.[/quote']

 

Yeah,

 

Because, before you do something like getting rid of killing attacks, you would have to come up with some other way for people to take Body. Cause as it stands, for the average super the ONLY way someone is going to take body is from a killing attack, and probably only a killing attack modified with something like AP, Penetrating or both. (At least, not considerring something like drains and such.) I know, I know, this is a Superhero game, and so Body shouldn't be taken very often, but the Hero System is not actually a Superhero game, it is a universal system that is mainly used for Superheroes, but even given that arguement, maybe death should not happen very often, but it should at least be on the table. And actually if you look at comics these days, Death should actually happen more often than the system currently allows.

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

In my opinion it is fine to do this sort of thing, as long as it is not abused. Allowing Defenses in a multipower for this sort of purpose is much easier and more prone to abuse than attacks. For instance, all of the attacks you mention have the same AP's and so they work at roughly the same level, though they can be finely tuned so they can be used more effectively based on the opponent. However, with Defenses, this becomes much more complex simply based on the dual nature of the defenses. Say for instance a person had 5 PD and 5 ED, In his multipower he has a 20/20 defensive slot. (left vague, what the defensive power is, as the point is the numbers, and I didn't want people arguing over a particuar power not being allowed in a MP) This may be considerred fine, however if the character also has a 40/0 Defensive slot, and a 0/40 Defensive slot, then this character can become next to impossible to fight for particular villains.

(IE he has his 20/20 slot going, and BAM he is attacked by Bulldozer. He says, "OW that hurt... I know Bulldozer only has physical powers, so I switch to my 40/0 slot." Now Bulldozer doesn't have much chance of hurting the character.)

OK, I am putting together a character that utilizes multiform for a player in my group. I know how the cost for Multiform includes the Base Points given for the character plus disadvantages, but the rulebook is never clear on how many disadvantages another form will need. It says that they are built on the same Base points as the true form and that it must take sufficient disdavantages to balance out its cost. Which I have always taken to mean, If a form cost 300 points, and you started with 150 base points, than the form would need 150 disadvantages. If you had another form that you had paid the points to have a 400 point form for, then you would need 250 points in disads.

This seems to me the way it works. However, when dealing with experience, it also states that the other forms do not gain experience, but that the player may put experience from the base form into the multiform power to give all of his forms more points. The only way I can see that working, given the first caveat though is that those additional points would still need to be covered with disadvantages. Which doesn't sound right, but it is the ony thing that fits in with the first rule.

I always thought it would be better for Multiform to utilize a segmented cost, Say the current cost or slightly higher would be used for Base Points allowed in extra forms, and a different cost, slightly lower than the current cost would would be used for the disadvantage pool allowed for the extra forms. This would have made the power work better in my opinion, or at least it would be more flexible, and allow people to pay their experience to build up their extra forms without those forms having to acquire new weaknesses in order to cover their extra cost. Which just doesn't seem right. I mean you are paying experience to GAIN disadvantages then.

Please poke holes in my logic.

Re: Multiform and EC

Good point. I wasn't meaning for HD to override a GM's decisionmaking. I just wasn't sure if there was a reason Multiform should or should not be allowed in a Power Framework. Though there is the option to add an Endurance cost to Multiform, but I believe the rule keeping powers that don't cost End from being placed in a Framework, still keeps out powers bought with costs Endurance, or am I wrong here?

PS, normally I am a real GURU for the Hero System normally. I just haven't played or ran it in over a year, and before that brief stint it was about as long or longer since, so I am pretty rusty.

I do have another question, I forgot to ask about Multiform though, but it is a slightly different topic so I am going to start a different thread for it.

I just noticed in my Hero Designer, that it has no problem putting a Multiform into an EC. I looked at the rules, and it says that Multiform is a Standard Power. So I cannot think of a reason this would not work. Originally, on the character I am working on, the power we used was duplication, but under 5th Edition rules, you can't use Duplication in the way we were using it, and it says to use multiform instead.

Is there anything wrong with my thinking on this?

I had a quick question, which I once thought I knew the answer too. Reading through all of the Adjustment powers, they specify that either aiding, absorbing, or draining points, the points that are adjusted neither to either come from powers or characteristics. In fact, in the case of Absorption it mentions a specific power or characteristics. I always took that to mean that you cannot absorb to, aid, or drain entire MPs, ECs, or VVPs. Is this wrong in some way? I got to wondering about that because under the Adjustment Powers listing under Elemental Control it mentions using Drain to remove points from an EC.

Personally, I think Drain would actually be the least effective power to use against a Power Framework, since you would have to specify that when you bought the power, and some people who had the specific types of powers you were looking at draining might have them in a different type of Framework, or may have bought the powers seperately.

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

Well' date=' technically Variable Advantage would be enough since it would allow the use of Variable SFX as one of the possible advantages that include AP, Penetrating, Indirect, NND and AVLD which are appropriate for the given example. The common theme I was pointing out though was that these are ALL changes to the ATTACK instead of the targets defenses. Purchasing Find Weakness and defining its SFX as a modification of the ATTACK like this does not preclude or increase the cost of adding those same advantages to the attack as well.[/quote']

 

You know I never thought of that. You are right Var. Adv. at the lowest level would even allow you to change your SFX somewhat. Thats cool.