GDShore

Interesting "theinfn8" , first you have to pack extra cloth to wrap each piece in, then you need a bag to put the pieces in, then you need to sling that bag onto your back remember it weighs about 40 kilo's. Now we can reduce the bag weight by a little, the helmet you will likely wear, (4 kg) gauntlets, (3 kg) greaves, (4 kg) total = 11 kg. the bag now weighs 29 kg's. 

Course you just dump it and be rid of that extra weight but wait, it is worth a small fortune. As for putting it on just before combat, it takes the assistance of two who know what they are doing approximately 15 minutes to put plate on, longer if it is Gothic or Maximillian Plate. I suppose one of the mages might have a summon invisible servant to assist you, the average run time of combats in most of my games is 30 to 60 seconds. SOO about the time you get you legs on and settled the battle is over one way or the other. 

I have always run campaigns till lately for two separate group types, strict role players and wargamers. That is probably to be expected, as I started out with "Chain Mail" which unless I am mistaken was the first role play game. So I have been gamemaster or moderator of one or the other for more than fifty years but you are right, small unit tactics are different from large form units. In the SCA we found that the most successful shiltron was formed of two sword and board and three archers, or two archers, two sword and board and a pole arm. To explore a ruin you want an even more diverse group than that. One of the problems for armored characters is stealth and someone in plate is, not, stealthy. Not at all. Clang, clang, creek, thump, thump, thump. And that's just a plate wearer going thru a nice clean corridor. That is an aspect that should be examined, the actual wearing of the suit of armor, when and wear you are campaigning. 

 I would like to make a point slightly off topic. Bows do not work indoors, in a corridor that is 3 meter by 3 meter by x meter long, bows are a problem, the issue is loft. The lighter the bow the larger the loft. Loft is the angle that a ballistic missile takes between point A and point B and the two primary variables are draw weight or energy production of the bow and the range between points A and B.  Here is a simple experiment to try, if you are about 6 foot tall or have a friend who lives at that rarified altitude, stand with arm held out parallel to the floor, then put a yard-meter stick in their hand, step back and look at the ceiling, The stick should be close to the ceiling, within 7.5 cm. The heavier the draw the smaller the loft. (personal anecdote when I was shooting regularly a group of much younger archers joined our shooting group, they were strong, vibrant young men, they were all 4 to 5 inch's taller than I am and all outmassed me by 50 lbs. minimum. At 40 I was 5'7" tall and a 110 lbs. I shot a 55lb. draw or 60 lb. weapon. Just starting out they were all shooting 30 lb. bows, at 40 yds. my loft is 6-8 degrees with an average of 29 out of 30 points,  at the 20 yard range my loft was 1-2 degrees, theirs closer to 15-20 degrees. ) My point, the heavier the bow the more accurate the shot. 

     Crossbows are a very different beast indeed. Designed to fire with little to no loft, and perfect for inside a corridor. 

Good day, I have an admission to make. The tests we performed may have been flawed. The targets we used were plates of steel, not shaped armor (at the time no one in our circle was willing to risk their plate armor getting a hole in it) as such the physics changes completely. I have been watching various videos of archer to armor tests, against well designed well built breast plates the arrows shatter without penetration. As such this would limit to a very great level the ability to take the knight down directly but would likely increase the change in targeting from man to horse. The horse cannot be armored to the same level as can a man.  The head is armored with lamellar armor, the eyes will be unprotected as will the nostrils (I have seen some barding cups over the nostrils) a breastplate over the chest is standard and you cannot armor legs at all. The breastplate does not cover the entire chest, to do so interferes with the forelegs. I still contend that the mounted knights are still at grave risk but the foot knights may be a harder nut to crack. The archers would likely wait until the foot has closed to under 100 meter at which point the foot is only 25 seconds from the archers. This would limit them to 4 to 5 shots each and that would make it depend on what the helmets are like. Open faced advantage archers, visored advantage foot. 

If vessels were travelling at FTL speeds there could be no fighting. You would not be able to detect enemy vessels except by grav waves if they propagate faster than light. Battles would likely be fought within solar systems around planets at thousands++ of kilometers distances. 

Actually I would believe that about silk. We did some experiments shooting at various cloth. From 20 meter vs. cotton broadcloth with a 30# bow complete pass through and 2" penetration into butt, thru corduroy with penetration of 1.5 to 2", thru both sides of a jean pant leg and again a 2" penetration, sail weight denim .5" penetration, belt weight denim stopped the arrows about half to three quarters the length of the arrow. We also tried wool, linen and silk the arrows passed thru like the cotton broad but the silk depending on the type from reaching the butt kimono silk had the best stopping ability. Interesting factoid about silk, if it is pushed into a shallow wound it will not fester or otherwise infect.

Nice volley Beast. I dispute it. A force of archers, with "Abatis" in front and a ditch will not break at 50 meter. More importantly those fifty knights will not make it to fifty meter alive, the archers are not shooting at the knights, they are shooting the horses. You cannot armor a horse to the level you can a man, at best the head is covered with lamellar the chest may have a plate but there are gaps and you can not armor legs. A point I grant to you, the front rank will receive the bulk of arrows, a horse going down not only sends its knight to the ground but the 1 to 3 ranks directly behind the fallen fall as well. The knight charges in an arrowpoint ( < ) formation as that front rank falls the remainder disperse they become easier targets to hit, they tend to slow down as they reform.  as they close from 100 meter to 50 meter all archers have stopped area effect fire and moved to aimed shots. the aim point, eyes and nostrils (while I have seen some barding for a horses head with cups over the nostrils but they are exceedingly rare. I contend that  at best out of a force of 50 attackers 6 maybe 7 reach the abatis where I give them at most a 3 minute lifespan. The attacking force is simply too small. To take out a defending force with fortification the attacker requires 4 to 5 time the numbers of the defense. 

     Now the turtle. Not going to happen with knights, maybe mercenaries but not the knight. The knight "is not a soldier" he is an honorable, chivalric warrior. To do a turtle successfully YOU must train for it. hIstorically  only 2 armies used it regularly, the Spartans and the Romans (I include the Byzantines as Roman, though they stopped using the turtle sometime in the eighth century AD. Only the Romans used as pro forma. The knights equipage does not lend it self to turtle, a heater shield does not allow for a successful turtle. The front rank must hold the shield with the top of the shield level with all the rest in the front rank, second rank must hold the shield at 45 degrees over the head of the front rank, the third and subsequent ranks will hold their shield above their heads point locked to the back of the shield ahead. Another issue, up to 20% of them won't even have shields they will carry polearms. Again it is the numbers 50 attackers is simply not enough. 

     I am going to preempt something here, "we have all seen movies where sword and board are marching in a shield wall." It don't look all that hard to me, and it isn't, turtle is. Takes about 3 months to learn to do properly. Finally both shield wall and turtle are immensely slow, the wall becomes close to 3 minutes and the turtle 3.5 to 4 minutes to traverse that distance. They might try the turtle but my bet is it would breakup at the first terrain deformation, a dip, a rise, a pothole or a boulder it is over.

     A final statement, you mentioned morale, what makes you think only the archer will run, if the knight sees 10%, 20% or 30% of their force falls won't break and run. 

I would like to speak to a couple of points here. I do not particularly like activation rolls , I can see where they are useful but do not like them. Rapiers are not armor piercing, one meeting between a rapier and broadsword, and the rapier either breaks in half or shatters. Also, the knight will be carrying a large shield (in addition to his armor) that will be verrry hard to get around. 

     Beast postulates a scenario where 200 archers takes on 50 knights but he leaves out a couple of important factors. 1. are the knights mounted,  2. at what range do the two forces spot each other, 3. if mounted it will take approximately 33 to 36 seconds for the knights to close to melee range assuming 300 meters. [ Richard the Lionheart said that if he could close an enemy to 300 yards no force on earth could stand before him] ( it takes 3 to 6 strides for a thoroughbred to achieve full speed, about 2 seconds) I rank as a ludicrous  bowman in the Society for Creative Anachronism which requires that you shoot a flight of 6 arrows each at 40 yards - 30 yards and 20 yards plus a speed round in which you have thirty seconds to fire as many arrows as possible. I generally average 6-7 rounds though my best was 9, I have a friend who regularly averaged 18 in a speed round with his best being 28.  120 points scored on a 60 cm. target face. The scoring is gold -5- (15 cm. circle), red -3-, blue -3-, black -2- and white -1- my best score was 126,  7 bullseyes and a 1. 

     My point is that personal experiance shows that a 12% hit rate is way too low. At Agincourt the worst archer on the English side would rate as good - very good, In tournament I have shot at clout and wand at 100 meter, The clout is at a circle 6 foot wide with circles at 1 foot, 2 foot and 4 foot. I never shoot less than all six in the 2 foot or 1 foot, the wand is a target 4 inches wide, 6 foot tall only the center 2 inches scoring. my worst 4 score 2 in the non score. These targets were based on those used by English yeoman archers during the Plantagenet era every Sunday after mass. So to Beasts posit, 100 of the archers will be good to very good, 50 will be excellent, 25 elite and 25 superlative. The first volley will loose as the knights approach 250 meters, the second as they approach 175 meter, a third volley as they approach the 100 meter mark. I doubt that there is a single one of the 50 still alive as the last living horse passes the 100 meter mark. You see, none will have charged with their visors down, (have you ever been on a horse wearing a helmet with visor down, I have, bupkiss is what you see) They won't lower the visor till about 50 meter out, the elites and superlatives will be aiming at the eye slot, about 2.5 cm. wide and 7.5 cm. long, remember there is fifty of them. 

     I will grant Beast his 10% penetration at 300 meter, but not his 12% hits to begin with, he has forgotten something else to begin with, THEY are not shooting at a target 2 meter high and less than 1 meter wide, they are shooting at a target closer to 4 meter high, 2,5 meter long and 1,5 meter wide. They are shooting at horse and man, a very big target. I posit a hit rate closer to 50%, that would be a hundred hits, 10 penetrations and a loss of 4 to 6 troops one way or another per volley. Trust me the best trained horse is not going to be happy shot in the rump or leg or eye. If the troop is dismounted their fate is more assured. 78 seconds is a long time to be under fire and not be able to strike back. From the 100 meter mark the knights would be looking at 5 plus rounds of fire, at probably 75% or more hits that would be 750 hits, 75 penetrations, 30 or more incapacitated. Penetration however is not my biggest beef, its accuracy, 

     At 300 meter I'll agree no aimed shots[unless aided] shots, same at 200 meter but ay 100 meter I know they are possible (even with a medium weight bow. {I have done it} In most RPG a bow cannot hit the broadside of a barn beyond 20-25 meter. At 100 meter I know I can hit a 5 cm. target, with less than a 2.5 cm. spread 4 time out of 6. I rank myself as an expert, not elite or superlative. To reach an expert ability I would have to have a missile OCV of +10 to 12, let alone think about being a superlative bowman.

Historically, the only environment where missiles and torpedoes are both used  is naval. Until the late middle 20 th. century both forms were dumb weapons, fire and forget. the missile goes thru the air is generally faster and longer ranged, the torpedoes are slower, shorter ranged, but with a heavier punch. If they have seeking or guidance systems , they can be spoofed. If the enemy is able to spoof, better guidance systems is required, ect. ect. My recommendation would be missiles be faster, longer ranged, with smaller warheads, torpedoes would be shorter ranged, slower, with a heavier warhead. 

     Repairs to armor in the field will be hard but not impossible, in fact light repairs should be possible by any who wears it. If he cannot, he should not be wearing same. For repairs like straps, buckles, and popped rivets simple tools are all that's needed -- leather, buckles, rivets, a good sharp knife, a punch and a good mallet. 

     This Mr. Ruggles is a partial answer to your question, and I apologize for the late reply I have been down with flu for two weeks. Stopping for a couple of days would allow for greater repairs on leather armors. For metal armor (chain excepted) you will need a smithy to effect repairs and that only needs a village smith. With chain, carrying extra links and a pliers to knit up minor tears and rents. For plate damage a major smithy will be required to repair. Even a small dent can be excruciating to wear although an armorer friend of mine said that a good suit of plate was easier to wear than to carry. He built a suit of plate that was so well articulated he could drive a firebird while wearing it. He lived in Calgary his girlfriend in Lethbridge about two hours south. (200 - 220 km.) The thing is ,, plate is expensive. I know a set of twins who bought suits of plate to order, that were $3000 apiece, during the medieval period a suit of plate could easily cost the output of a large villages production for a year. 

      I belong to a recreation group called the S.C.A. and most of those that fight sword and board (shield) wear cuir-bouilli (boiled leather) 9 - 12 ounce. I have taken part in more than a Hundred battles as an archer using a light bow (max 30 lb. draw - 12.5 kg draw) using wooden arrows with bird blunt style heads. (.75 inch diameter) It was in doing this that I realized how badly most systems dealt with missile weapons. From range to damage to accuracy they are universally underrated. I also found even in a hobby that money talks, plate was only used by those with deep pockets, chain and plate less expensive, straight chain even less and finally those on a tight budget leather only. AS for wearing it, I have seen persons put on their armor at 9:00 AM and not take it off until 5:00 PM, although you would want to be upwind of them. Admitted I live in Canada, Alberta actually and we do not get as hot as SoCal.

I have played RPG style games since the late sixties, first with chainmail, then D&D and then Hero system in the eighties. I also played E.P.T. (Empire of the Petal Throne) and C&S (Chivalry and Sorcery) as well as a number of other game systems. I have Always been somewhat unhappy with the presentation of weapons and combat in most systems. I am an archer, been so since I was six, in my teens was involved in experiments with a variety of bows and crossbows. Most systems rating of light, medium and heavy bows completely miss s the mark (pun intended) Two bows of differing style (longbow vs recurve) of the same poundage will in fact have different penetration. The experiments presented some unusual results, using a 90 lb. compound and simple iron bodkin tipped wooden shafted arrows against 10 and 12 gauge plate no penetration and virtually no scratch. Against 14 to 16 gauge plate gouge on the 14, denting on the 16, heavy denting against 18 gauge, and against20 gauge deep dent and splitting of the metal. 

   I personally shoot a 55 - 60 lb. recurve and a 45 - 50 lb. longbow - horse bow. With my 55 lb. bow and the iron bodkins I only dented the 18 and 20 gauge plates and only scratched some of the others. However with high carbon steel and heat treated bodkins my 55 lb. recurve penetrated the 16 gauge plate and gouged all of the Heavier, a friend with a 60 lb. draw Yumi style bow (Japanese asymmetrical) penetrated the 14 gauge .5 to 1.5 inch, on the 16 g average of 2 inch 3 - 4 on the 18 g  and treated 20 gauge as though it was tissue paper. Now, admittedly none of the plates was hardened and range was 50 meters the 90 lb. compound penetrated all of the plates, As for other weapons and penetration, swords are mostly ineffective against simple plate armor let alone something like Gothic or Maxmillian plate. You need to go to axes, hammer's and maces to achieve damage to a plate wearer and then it is mostly hydro-static damage. 

    I am about to start a new campaign, and will be recording on duplicate character sheets damage to their weapons, armor and sundries as well as bonus damage to opposing targets based on maneuver's  weapon type , pushed strength and other factors, letting them know as their equipage deteriorates. As GM it is your job to maintain playability and introduce as much reality as you can. Have you ever fired a bow down a corridor  that's 10 ft. by 10 ft. I have, beyond 8 to 10 meters nearly impossible, (corridor was actually 8 ft. wide and 10 ft. high) . Beyond 10 meters arrows kept bouncing off the roof, and finding a path thru cardboard figures in front of you problematic.