Gideon

Re: What is the best way to build this? so I have 1 power and that power is: 2d6 RKA, Autofire, VSFX (with trigger), OAF, Charges. The Trigger is "when I fire the gun, VSFX activates" So I decide to fire at 3 targets: I shoot target 1. Trigger activates. The bullet is made of silver. I shoot target 2. Trigger activates. The bullet is made of cold iron. I shoot target 3. Trigger activates. The bullet is made of mercury. OK. That works in getting around the fact that VSFX says it can only be activated once a phase. However, it does not allow the character to use bullets that do anything other than 2d6 RKA. If I want the bullet to explode, I can't use this power to do so. i would have to buy a second power of: 2d6 RKA, Autofire, VA (with trigger), OAF, Charges. And then I can have an explosion, or AP, or Penetrating. But I still can't have both. I would need: 2d6 RKA, Autofire, VSFX (with trigger and lockout VA), VA (with trigger and lockout VSFX)OAF, Charges. Then I could have both a 2d6 silver bullet AND a 2d6 explosive bullet, but not a 2d6 silver explosive bullet. Which is great. There are only 2 problems I see with this. I think that the active cost of this power will be higher than 70 points. I STILL can't have attacks that do something other than a variation of 2d6 RKA (like a flash, or an entangle). Any ideas on how to solve this final part of the equation?

Re: Teen Champions Villians Knowing what tone the campaign is supposed to have will definately be a big help. I personally like Serious young people in a mostly serious world. But then again I always feel that camp and sillyness are best in moderate doses. With a game that is run with super-powered kids in a normal school you get a great dicotamy with the characters. People start getting into conflics between their secret and super IDs, and it can be great fun. Remember if this isn't "Super Hero High", then not every villian needs to be a Super Villian, and not everything needs to have a Super motive or Super explanation. You can get great fun out of normal things like the rival football team stealing the school mascott, or people crashing the school dance. AND you get the extra fun of the characters trying to decide whether it is a problem apropriate to handle in secret ID or super ID.

Re: Teen Champions Villians I like this idea, but I have had very bad experiences with it. One game my concept of the character and my GM's understanding of and interpretation of the character were VASTLY different. Another game, a couple of the characters simply started "experementing" with there powers by using them constantly to "Try to see what they could do". A good alternative way of doing this is to start the characters off with less points character points, fewer Disadvantages, and possilby stricter (and lower) limits on Active Point Totals for powers. You can also limit how high defenses, stats, skills, etc... can be at the start of the game. You cna if you want even combine the two, but I suggest that instead of building powers for the characters and then having them discover them (sometimes a power is left undiscovered for years), set aside XP for them that only aplies towards buying things that they are training/ learning. EX: one of the characters has gavitic flight powers. He spends time trying to figure out how to use these powers to fly while underwater. He earns an amount of XP that can only be used towards purchasing the "usable underwater" advantage on his flight. Also, on the topic of setting and such: I have always perfered the idea of super-powered kids in Normal school to "School for Superheroes". With super-teens in normal school not only do you have much more to work with for ideas: Buffy the Vampire Slayer Veronica Mars Degrassi High Heathers Teen Titans Young Heroes in Love Smallville X-Men Evolution Mean Girls Plus you also don't need to design 2043 super-powered students to be the PCs schoolmates.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Um... I am not an expert on firearms, but the character has a 6-shooter. The gun itself dates back to the late 1800s, and its an important part of his background. There may be a better gun to use that dates back to the proper time period, but I don't know of one. This just sounds like another reason to not buy the gun with clips.

Re: What is the best way to build this?

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hugh Neilson: My GM does not restrict the rapid shot manuever. The reason is most characters in the game have an OCV of 8-10, and I don't think a single character in the game (including NPCs) can generate an OCV higher than 14. With the cumulitive -2, if I am fireing at a hoard of agents who all have an 8 DCV and I have a 11 OCV: First shot: 11 OCV vs 8 DCV: 14- Second shot: 9 OCV vs 8 DCV: 12- Third shot: 7 OCV vs 8 DCV: 10- Fourth shot: 5 OCV vs 8 DCV: 8- Fifth shot: 3 OCV vs 8 DCV: 6- Sixth shot: 1 OCV vs 8 DCV: 4- Thats the base, chances are after the third shot I miss, and the rapid shot is over, and thats not taking into account that the targets may abort to dodge.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hyper-man: If my GM will allow the 6-in-1 gun conceptually, then that is EXACTLY how I will build it. It just needs a couple of minor fixes (linked on the extra limbs, and the can be missle deflected on the framework). If he won't allow it, then I am going to see if the build AmadanNaBriona came up with will fly. I am not gonna deal with the backwards crap build I suggested except as either a last ditch effort (which I honestly don't see the GM accepting) or a way of saying well Hyper-man and AmadanNaBriona's builds are both better than this. So again thank you guys for all the effort you have put in to helping me.

Re: Best Mystic comic/character ever? My personal favorite to read about has always been Zatanna. Stories with here always seem to somehow be fun reads. My second favorite is Dream. Sandman will always be one of my top 5 all time favorite series. Not always what I would call a "fun" book, but literary wise one of the best stories I have ever read. As far as who is most important to the genre, hands down its Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate. They both define the very nature of how comic books portray mage-superheroes.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hugh Neilson: KarinsDad is correct, I (the OP) want to have the ability to fire 3 bullets (of any kind) at 3 targets in the same phase. I don't care at all how many shots I can pump into a single target. At least not where this thread is concerned.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Umm... wow I leave my computer for a few hours and the thread grows by 2 pages. Wow... Alright, let me start here. I want to make sure I understand this properly. The rules (using the stuff from Dark Champions) say: You can pay 5 points to double the number of weapons you have. Each of these weapons must be identical and seperate. Each of these weapons must have the Focus limitation. At the GM's Descression, If you have 2 different weapons (meaning two seperate Focus based attacks) you can fire each one as part of the Rapid Fire manuever. This means if you have 2 guns, you could fire each gun at 2 people in a single phase. So using the doubleing rules I could have 6 identical guns. Each of these guns is a seperate multipower. Each multipower is completely identical. In order to do this I buy the multipower once and then pay an extra 15 points for the duplicates. Using Rapid Fire I can shoot all of the guns I have in 1 phase. So if I have 6 guns and each has 6 charges I can fire up to 36 shots in a single given phase. Granted realisticly this is an impossible feat considering -2 cumulitive OCV penalty. I dont think I made any mistakes here so lets go on... What Hyper-man is suggesting is: Make 6 guns. Make 5 of the guns invisible Take extra limbs Make the extra limbs invisible State that for SFX all 6 guns count as 1 gun: If 1 gun is disarmed or blown up all 6 are. If I use a "Normal Bullet" charge from 1 gun I use a charge from all 6 guns ETC... [*]Call the whole thing: "1-gun-that-can-be-fired-6-times-a-phase" Here's my issues with this. As far as I understand the rules doubled weapons must be IDENTICAL, and as someone already pointed out the "Doubles" cannot have advantages or limitations that the original lacks. The doubleing rules also state that the "doubles" need to be different items, and thus the SFX of: 6 Guns in 1 defies the intention of the rules. I also have a couple of other issues with the build: I don't understand the concept of an Invisible Obvious Accessible Focus. The extra limbs are bought linked to the Armor Piercing Bullets, So unless I have made a grave error: I cannot use the extra limbs unless I am ALSO using the AP bullets. Since the AP bullets are not consistant powers, the extra limbs turns off immediately after I fire an AP bullet. Becaus the Extra Limbs go away as a in response to my first shot, My second shot cannot be from one of the guns I need the extra limbs to carry. This effectivly means that the power always tuns off just prior to me having the ability to use it. [*]The "Limited Power All slots can be Missle Deflected" limitation should be on the slots not the entire framework. [*]The rules in the 5ER do not support "mixed Clips"

Re: What is the best way to build this? What page are the rules for this on? I don't know what its listed under in the index, and I've never really looked into multiple copies of frameworks closely.

Re: What is the best way to build this? AmadanNaBriona: Looking at things again I think this is a good idea, but I would really apretiate it if you could re-post the build fully, because I need to actually see it better. I just think that I am going to have to suck it up (if I want to do this at all) and pay through the nose for non-RKA bullets. Its Ok, because I should be more than able to come up with enough limitations on the powers that they end up fairly inexpensive.

Re: What is the best way to build this?

Re: What is the best way to build this?

Re: What is the best way to build this? Ok, just so EVERYONE is on the same page here. I haven't mentioned this gun build to my GM yet. He knows about the character, but he doesn't know how I want to build the gun. I actually asked him about this and he said: No. He won't allow a STUN only RKA or HKA. So that option has been officially defenistrated. WHOA, WHOA WHOA!!!!! I NEVER said that my GM doesn't allow Multiple-Power Attacks. I said the RULES IN THE BOOK state that: Multiple attacks in the same framework cannot be used as part of a Multiple-Power Attack which means that framewors are out. Completely. According to page 358 of the 5ER, All attacks from a Multiple-Power Attack MUST be aimed at the same target. And this totally negates the concept of what I am asking help to build. You are right, THAT would solve most of the problems. ROFL... Its also not just Mercy Bullets. I want the ability to make other kinds of bullets later on. Possibly a "flare" bullet, thats a 1 hex flash, or some kind of bullet that creates an entangle. I'm not really sure what kinds of things I want to take in the future, but I want the ability to make more different kinds of bullets including ones that aren't just 2d6-1 RKAs.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hyper-Man: That doesn't work. You CANNOT activate multiple attack power from the same framework in one phase. Period. This was one of the first things discussed on the thread. Having Extra Limbs does not change this. Thia Halmades: You still CANNOT activate multiple attack power from the same framework in one phase. Even if its a Cosmic VPP. KarinsDad: OK I screwed that one up. If the Trigger is bought with half phase to reset and Trigger can be set Multiple times (as far as I understand the rules) it means that I can set that Trigger any number of times as 1 half phase action. However, what I meant to say is that by buying the power with half phase reset time, I am limited to setting up tiggers for only 2 of the powers in phase. Because each power takes a half phase to load. So I could put 3 silver bullets and 3 AP bullets in the gun by taking 2 half phase actions, or 6 Silver bullets in the gun by taking 1 half phase action, but putting 1 silver bullet, 1 AP bullet and 1 lead bullet would take me 3 half phase actions. Either way it leads to the same thing: I can't have Half Phase Reset Time, I need Zero Phase Reset Time. Hugh Neilson: Well you have a point. So even if it is at -0, I need to have the limitations: Takes a full phase to use triggers (or half phase with the use of Rapid Attack Skill), and must take a cumulitive -2 OCV penalty for each activated trigger.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hugh Neilson: Yes I know you talked about Trigger. dust Raven: No, and it doesn't actually allow what I want. KarinsDad: I can fire more than 4 shots, because the Trigger is bought with: Trigger can be set multiple times. But you are right that I need Zero Phase action, just not for that reason. Its because if the reset time is a half phase, then I can only set a maximum or 2 triggers a phase. AmadanNaBriona: I know you have the right idea, but there is a problem with your design. This design only works if ALL of the bullets in the gun are 2d6 RKAs. I know that I want one of the bullets to be a mercy round, and I am sure that my GM would have issues with me buying a Stun Only Killing Attack (That is what Energy Blast is for). So even though it costs more points (I know I said I want to keep the cost down, but I don't see a way around it here), but I think the build needs to be as follows: (Note: I made a mistake in my last build of this, I can't have clips because all the charges in a clip need to be changed at the same time) Normal bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 24 charges (+1/4), trigger: related set of conditions, no action to activate, Zero phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+3/4) (50 active points, 22 real points) Silver bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 12 charges (-1/4), trigger: related set of conditions, no action to activate, Zero phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+3/4) (44 active points, 18 real points) Armor Piercing bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 12 charges (-1/4), trigger: related set of conditions, no action to activate, Zero phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+3/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (56 active points, 22 real points) Cold Iron bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 12 charges (-1/4), trigger: related set of conditions, no action to activate, Zero phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+3/4) (44 active points, 18 real points) Then I can also have: Holy Bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 12 charges (-1/4), trigger: related set of conditions, no action to activate, Zero phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+3/4) (44 active points, 18 real points) Explosive bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 12 charges (-1/4), trigger: related set of conditions, no action to activate, Zero phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+3/4), Explosive (+1/2) (56 active points, 22 real points) and so on... The only thing I need to figure out is how much it costs to tack on a limitation stating that loading the bullets takes a full phase action (or half phase if fast draw is rolled), and that after 6 consectutive attacks I MUST reload. I think I should also put in the "cannot be used as part of a multiple power attack" limitation, or some limited form of lockout that says: cannot use both powers unless trigger is set. Is there anything I missed? What do people think of building it this way?

Re: What is the best way to build this? KarinsDad: You have a point. GAAHHH!!! I'm starting to really think that I just won't be able to do this. But I was looking over the thread again, and wondering: What about Trigger? I know that it makes things more expensive and redundant, but as long as I don't go over 70 Active, thats fine. Why not replace VSFX with an attack that has trigger on it? Or even not use Naked Advantages, just make each bullet its own attack with trigger? So I would have: Normal bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), trigger: relates set of conditions, no action to activate, half phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+1/2) (45 active points, 18 real points) Silver bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), trigger: relates set of conditions, no action to activate, half phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+1/2) (45 active points, 18 real points) Armor Piercing bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), trigger: relates set of conditions, no action to activate, half phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+1/2), Aromor Piercing (+1/2) (60 active points, 28 real points) Cold Iron bullets: 2d6-1 RKA, OAF (-1), Beam(-1/4), 4 clips of 6 charges (-1/4), trigger: relates set of conditions, no action to activate, half phase to reset, can be set multiple times (+1/2) (45 active points, 18 real points) I know that it makes thinks MUCH more expensive, but I am sure I could also tack on a ton more limitations to take the cost down. What do you think?

Re: What is the best way to build this? I think I'm doing my math wrong, but I don't understand how 10 clips of 6 charges (AKA: 60 charges bought in clips of 6) comes to a +0 advantage. Please explain.

Re: Cap is dead!!!! CrosshairCollie, and Checkmate: Not to get horribly derailed from the topic here, but the semmingly exponential growth of Cable's telepathing and telekinetic powers were explained. In the begining most of his mutant powers were focused on keeping the techno-virus in check. He eventually learned to some way around this problem and was able to show his actual (read as: completely cracked) power level. They "rememidied" this and down powered him not-to-long-ago, by giving him a partial lobotomy and replaceing the T-O-infected tissue with benign techno-organic tissue. It still doesn't make up for him being a lousy chracter though.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hugo Neilson: That is perfectly logical and makes sense. However, if you read Sean Waters he was saying that the basic special effect of the gun should be that if fires either Lead or Silver bullets and that VSFX shouldn't need to be applied. If VSFX needs to be applied then the character can only fire up to 2 differnt kinds of "normal" bullets (bullets which only have a differnt SFX, not a different effect) in 1 phase. Otherwise I think i need to buy each "normal" type of bullet as a seperate power, as well as things like the "Rubber bullet" because that is a different kind of attack (EB VS RKA). I would then buy effects like Explosive or Armor Piercing as Naked Advantages, but I think I would need to put some kind of Lockout variant on them stating that they both can't effect the same attack. What do people think?

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hyper-man: Cool. I don't have a copy of Dark Champions, so I know nothing from the book. I will take a look as soon as I can. Ok, again I may not have been clear enough. I picked lead, silver and Armor Piercing as examples. The actual list of bullets I plan on having for the character includes the following: Lead Silver Cold Iron Armor Piercing Explosive Holy Rubber (or some other kind that would equate to an EB) I also want to have the ability to create new kinds of bullets in the future. I think loading no more than ONE bullet could be a half phase action that could be reduced to a zero phase action with a fast draw roll. Any more than 1 bullet, needs to be a full phase that can be reduced to a half phase with fast draw. I may go so far as saying that it takes the same amount of time to reload 1 as it does to reload 6, but I'm not sure. If you want to call anyone the "Munchkin Chipmunk" on this it should be Steven. I took the description of the gun straight out of the 5ER book page 485. You should ignore it, its a typo. I think the naked advantage part works, and it works well. But how do I work in additional types of bullets like I mentioned previously? I was about to ask: "why 24 silver bullets?" until I read that again, and realized I understood what you were talking about. I don't like Real Weapon either. I am going to role play the gun as having the limitation either way, but I'm only going to take the points for it if its the only possilbe way for me to aford the power. The powers should be quite cheap enough without it.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Hyper-Man: It is a superhero game. And while I think the idea of sub-atomic molecularly alterable bullets is absolutely kick-@$$ cool, it simply isn't what I'm trying to do. AmadanNaBriona: You are right, and I agree with you. But I want to play in this game (believe me I WANT to play in this game), and its a ton of fun. The example I gave you isn't necicarily indicitive of the game I play in, it was just an easy way to explain what I am looking for. I've learned over the years that in a game with a good GM who is also strict with the rules that sometimes a "common sense" or "dramatic sense" moment simply needs to be handled in a different way. In the game I play, if the situation I used as my last example were to actually come up, and I hadn't come up with a RAW solution for this problem, I wouldn't even have Gideon open fire. Instead I would pull a Mission Impossible move and sneak into the weapon locker through the ventilation ducts. Either way, AmadanNaBriona thank you for trying to help.

Re: What is the best way to build this? Alright, people have been asking why my GM is such a stickler for the rules, so that they understand where I am coming from. My GM (who, I am sorry but will remain unnamed) writes for the company. Anything in his game may at some point see print, and for that reason alone, he is unwilling to fudge rules. Especially when it comes to character construction. He doesn't have a problem with MPA. The problem is that MPA states the following things: 1) Only 1 power per framework can be used as pat of an MPA. which means I can't use MPA if the gun is a multi-power. 2) All of the attacks MUST all be fired at the same target. which is not the effect I am going for. Also Linking things should be fine. People have had liked powers before in the game, so I don't know why I wouldn't be able to also. Now I know he isn't a huge fan of Naked Power Advantages, but as far as I have seen nobody in the game has ever used the rule. So I think (if nothing else) he would allow me to have it to see how well it works. The VA and VSFX have a problem though. Both say that (unless the GM says otherwise) you can only change use them once in a phase. And unfortunately I expect him to enforce that rule. Also, I think I need to explain the In Game effect I am going for a little better. People are misinterpreting what I am looking for slightly. Gideon jsut managed to free himself from captors, and find his gun. He hunkers down behind some cover and checks his ammo. He has 1 AP bullet, 2 lead bullets and 1 silver bullet. The 2 lead bullets are already in loaded in the barrel. He makes his way throught the secret villian complex and finds the weapons locker. There are 4 agents guarding the room. He has a clear shot on alll of them, and he wants to take them down as fast as he can. I make his Fast Draw roll so he can load the gun as a half phase action. He ow has 1 AP bullet, 1 silver bullets and 2 lead bullets in the gun. He shoots. He has rapid attack, so even thought I can't use it because of the differet ammo types: rapid fire is only a half phase action. Four targets, one bullet each. First bullet in the chamber is AP, the second and third are both lead, and the fourth is silver. Surprise, as well as skill help him and he hits all four targets, and they go down. Gideon now has access to their weapon locker and the rest of his ammo. Its not a matter of me wanting to be able to shoot 3, 4, or 5 targets in every round of combat all the time. AND its not that I want to be able to use all the different kinds of bullets the character has on him all the time. Its simply a matter of I want to be able to do it if I need to. AND its really ment to simulate: I am using what I have on me. NOT I have special bullets that I can change the atomic structure of when I shoot them.

Re: What is the best way to build this? That is fine. If the answer to the question I possed is: "You cannot do that under the rules RAW, and a 70 Active Point limit." Then that is fine with me. I possed the question because I couldn't come up with a solution and I know that people on these boards are smart, and many of them are better with Hero System than I am. So I wanted suggestions. If there really is no way RAW to do this, then I will simply suck it up and build the gun as a standard Multipower. I don't NEED to be able to use multiple kinds of charges in a single phase, I WANT to be able to use multiple kinds of charges in a single phase. Its not like it will ruin the character if I can't fire both lead and silver bullets in the same phase. Nor will it make the game less fun to play. It is just one of those things that it makes sense to be able to do, and if there is a way to build it I want to find it. (Without fudging anything) Everyone who has posted has been very helpfull, and I am thanking everyone right now for trying to give me an answer to this question. Thank you.