Crypt

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars Sorry.

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars There are scientific basis and several ways to do this, at least in theory. For instance a massive enough meteor could do it. The equations are well known and precise. Science is a bit more than gamer's beliefs. but please, don't focus on planets, and i did not asked about power crafting, i did not ask how to make a planet killer power, i only asked about the body rules. This is about everything. Bases, vehicles, mountains, doors, walls, small or large versions of each and yes, planets, + everything else. There are a least 4 differents versions of interpreting BODY excess damage and 2 or more ways of interpreting what BODY is (spreaded in parts or the representation of a whole.) but well, nevermind, nobody seems to be able to say how to make this milk-shake useful in a "realistic" campaign so i won't instist.

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars Yes, but there is one thing Hero does not allow = Easy realism. Scales mixing and logarithms mixed to linearity make it impossible. But well, that's very general and in the end a bit off-topic "scientifically believable for a person with some basic scientific education" (mainly Physics) That's what i need. In your opinion what would be the versions numbers for this kind of campaign mood ? The fact that there are different kinds of "Body" does not help the "as you like it" way of seeing the campaign world's "laws" i'd prefer not improvising rules in-game. i'm not snippy, i'm in distress.

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars I only asked about the various versions of breaking things. I'm sure you know what i meant when i said "believable"...

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars the very easy answer, isn't it ? i see.

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars but well, in your opinion what could be the various correct versions numbers if i want a believable campaign ? (= somewhat realistic)

Re: Dominos, mountains & small cars to be consistent...

After re-thinking about it and re-reading some rules it seems the key is that the target may or may not be see as a whole. 1. Multiples "separated" parts: (TUB p105) + full BODY excess = +1 cubic hex If we use the rule in Ultimate Brick page 105, Earth is a very large "boulder" so this is not a whole but a multitude of cubic hexes, each with for instance DEF 5 and BODY 19. So the AoE+Autofire would only do 1 Body 160 times, never overcoming the DEF so Earth would not be destroyed (but an amazing quantity of 0 DEF creatures would suffer.) In order to destroy Earth the WorldsEnd power should be increased from 1 pipK to 8D6K. It would cost 820 character points. That's a lot better than 34 (but not very high neither...) 2. Multiples "linked" parts: (Dominos) Walls (H5R p449), large Vehicles (TUV p188, option), Bases (???) IMHO, The "wall" rule (+1 excess BODY = X2 hexes) seems to be made for "domino" structures where the destruction of a part bring successive destruction of adjacents parts. 3. A whole: The BODY of characters, vehicles and "small" items. 4. ????? +1 BODY excess = +1 hex : large vehicles ?... again.... This is from Ultimate brick, p 104. What is the right version for bases ? Version 2, the "domino" ? (H5R p465 "Because a bases's Body spreads out over a large area, a base's walls start with only 2 BODY and their Size does not affect this.") , Version 1 ? What is the Version 4 supposed to be used for ? Was it a mistake ? That's quite confusing......i'm lost Are there clear, official and definitive rules somewhere ? (i'd prefer clear rules rather than a "as you like it" no-rule.) May you please write the correct Version number in front of : Vehicles: Large Vehicles: Bases: Items : Very large items: etc.... (what is a very large item ? something whose size is greater than 1 cubic hex ?) horrible...

Re: Mass musings http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72566

Re: Mass musings [tired mode] The more i think about Hero's BODY problem, the more i think it was total stupidity to mix linear and exponential scales and i see no simple way to fix it. That s**** beyond human understanding How can a system put together very delicate powers crafting and silliness like "you may destroy a planet with a bucket of dynamite sticks and/or 50 character points" is.......wow.....i can't find the words..... Will it be changed in H6, that's the very big question. [end of tired mode] i'm really sorry, it makes me mad PS:....unless each Earth's hexes has 85 Body ?

Re: Mass musings that's why i talk about decibels in my signature. This scale is : Rank = 10 * Log(Value) (note: Log in base 10) Value = 10^(Rank/10) = (¹°√10)^Rank -10 : 0.1 10cm / 1 joule -9: 0.13 -8: 0.16 -7: 0.2 -6: 0.25 1km/h -5: 0.32 -4: 0.4 -3: 0.5 -2: 0.63 -1: 0.79 0 : 1 kg / 1seconde / 1 mètre / 1 m/s / 10 joules 1: 1.3 2: 1.6 Average human height 3: 2 Average human height 4: 2.5 5: 3.2 6: 4 7: 5 8: 6.3 9: 7.9 10: 10 11: 13 12: 16 13: 20 14: 25 15: 32 16: 40 17: 50 18: 63 1mn / Average human weight 19: 79 Average human weight 20: 100 Average human weight 21: 130 22: 160 23: 200 24: 250 25: 320 26: 400 27: 500 28: 630 29: 790 30: 1000 1t / 1km .... Some properties: Each +1 rank = +25.89% Each +3 ranks = X2 Each +10 ranks = X10 The scale is a unlimited repetition, in both directions of: 0 : 1 1: 1.3 2: 1.6 3: 2 4: 2.5 5: 3.2 6: 4 7: 5 8: 6.3 9: 7.9 10: 10 It may be rounded like that: 0 : 1 1: 1.25 2: 1.5 3: 2 4: 2.5 5: 3 6: 4 7: 5 8: 6 9: 8 10: 10 How to convert from reality: You want the mass rank of 12000 kg: There are four "X10" in 12000 = rank 40 and it's multipled by 1.2 = add 1 to the rank (look the chart, Rank 1 = 1.3) final rank = 41. Some examples: 85 : Light speed -60 : mass of a mosquito 248 : mass of Earth 303: mass of the Sun Reverse-conversion: Look at the mass rank of Earth: 248 This is twenty four X10 multiplied by 6.3 (the value of rank 8= 6.3) so: 6 300 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 kg (actually Earth's mass is 5,9742 × 10^24 kg but as always with integer logarithms we have to round.) etc. Now start to imagine that rolls are 0 centered, for instance 2d6-2d6...... if you roll -3 you know that you only get 50% of your average non-random capacity.....if you substact 3 from your effect rank then it will actually deliver 50% of its efficiency......... if you roll +5 you get 320% of your average capacity......if you add 5 to your effect rank then it will actually deliver 320% of its efficiency......... if your physical resistance is 20 and you're hurt by a rank 13 attack, this is only 1/5 of your resistance (actually with such a scale wounds better occur when the damage rank is greater than your resistance rank which is, on the average, equal to your mass rank).......if "abilities" costs come from their rank, applied advantages or limitation may be simple + or - on the cost rank ........falling damage on Earth using the potential energy equation is equal to mass+height ..........etc. I have the conviction that such a system mixed with Hero's powers and flexibility ideas would be the very Grail of all RPG engines. Conversion from Hero's Str like CHARs = Hero's CHAR = ((Rank-14)/3) * 5 Rank= (3/5 * Hero's CHAR) +14

Re: Universe Sandbox so nice

Re: Mass musings to hide reality ? (isn't it called 'cheating' ? )

Re: Mass musings I see what you mean. I was thinking about the same thing yesterday night => Let's say we don't want to modify DCs (it would be a real pain I.T.A) So: - Purchase BODY as usual. - The actual BODY used when taking damage is (BODY/5)+8 (let's call it mBody) (This is the same as item's BODY computed from MASS. You called is mass based Body.) mBody minus body damage: 0 = 100 % 1 = 50 % 2 = 25 % 3 = 12.5 % 4 = 6.25 % 5 = 3.125 % 6 = 1.5625 % 7 = 0.78125 % 8 = 0.390625 % 9 = 0.1953125 % 10 = 0.09765625 % 11 = 0.048828125 % 12 = 0.0244140625 % 13 = 0.01220703125 % 14 = 0.006103515625 % 15 = 0.0030517578125 % 16 = 0.00152587890625 % 17 = 0.000762939453125 % 18 = 0.000381469726563 % 19 = 0.000190734863281 % 20 = 9.53674316406E-005 % 21 = 4.76837158203E-005 % 22 = 2.38418579102E-005 % 23 = 1.19209289551E-005 % 24 = 5.96046447754E-006 % 25 = 2.98023223877E-006 % % is equals to 100/(2^d) where d is the difference between damage and mBody. This means that 13 damage pts are equals to 6.25% of mBody 17. ....and.....10 damage pts are equals to 00000.9% of mBody 30...... That's problematic.... The Log2 scale was fun in MEGS but it's not appropriate for a "generic" game. PS: i must say something: i hope all those discussions will lead to the conclusion that there's no real need to change anything. But right now i don't see this tunnel's end.

Re: Mass musings Correction: i was in "log mode".... So, yes, it would destroy Earth because of stacking BODY dmg..... (linearity is the root of all evil...)

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall? that's why a generic system must not be linear.

Re: Mass musings If you see Earth as a whole, like a character, then this AoE attack would be far from being enough*. When you hit a giant character (several ") do you apply AoE dmg multiple times ? * EDIT: the 160 shots are not enough neither. 160 times DCx is not the same as DC(x*160) 160 X 177 = 28320 = only DC8. It would not be the end of the planet. But it would be the end of the biosphere. (only because BODY dmg are substract from BODY instead of being a logarithmic comparison....thanks for giving a very good example against the linear uses in HERO...)

Re: Mass musings IMO that's another story => against a huge target (living or not, complex or simple, etc....), what 1pt BODY means ? Sometimes 1 pt of excess BODY double destroyed inches. Sometimes its +1" / +1 BODY, sometimes its +1" for each DEF+BODY increment............etc....... So does such a big target must be seen as a whole or not ? , etc.... If there were less exceptions there would be less problem of this kind. That's very very very tricky. I didn't met the problem until now because i mostly GM Fantasy and Horror Hero but i bet i will when i will GM Star Hero (and it would be an automatic problem in Champions.)

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall? Increasing everything is not the solution.

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall? a terminal velocity fall would do 11 BODY on the average (100 kg, Earth's gravity, etc....) or 22 BODY with the X2. 22 BODY would kill him. He would be at BODY -10. This is the same as a long series of attacks which crush him to negative BODY. (this is not the "critical" which kills....unlike in RM.) 11 BODY : he would be at BODY 1. It could still kill him if you use some house rules as realistic as the VF falling rules are (Major injuries computed from % of BODY taken in 1 shot or the like.) (here, this is the critical which kills ) PS: Weightlifting record: 263.5 kg "clean & jerk" ==> STR 17

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall? By "work" do you mean "tend to kill" ? The falling rules work. Even without the X2. The very big question is: if my character has x PD, y rPD and z BODY should i be suprised when my character can fall at 250 km/h on the ground without suffering any wound ? This all depends on what PD, rPD and BODY are, how you use them when crafting a character, etc. If something must be changed this is not the falling rules. If you intended a character to die from a fall then you should have lowered some of his stats, but not changed the falling rules. The VF version of falling is very realistic. But in the other hand giving stats like more than 10 BODY or 2PD means that you want to play cinematic characters, not realistic ones. So they may survive a big fall. Even a 10 BODY character is in the tough part of normals or in the "lucky" part (Indiana is not tougher than a bodybuilded guard but he will survive, not the guard.)

Re: Mass musings

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall? A fix from another thread, but i think it should be here instead. Fix: It seems that J.Kim made a small mistake. It should be: DC x = 88.889*(2^x) Joules. instead of DC x = 32*(2^x) J note: 88.88888889 is the kinetic energy of a 25Kg (0d) body moving at VF0 (16"/turn) = (25/2)*((32/12)^2). so DC 1 = 177.778 J, not 64. http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/joules.php Eg. 200kg moving or falling at 30m/s = 100*30^2 = 90000 J 200kg = MASS 15 = 3d 30m/s = VF 7 ============= 3+7=10. 88.889*(2^10) = 91022 Joules 800kg moving or falling at 120.68m/s = 400*120.68^2 = 5 825 464 J 800kg = MASS 25 = 5d 120.68m/s = VF 11 ============= 5+11=16. 88.889*(2^16) = 5 825 422 Joules It works.