Haerandir

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

Call me judgemental, but getting your jollies watching someone (even a fictional someone) get sodomized by a gasoline powered dildo is just disturbing. Fiction is fiction, but taking pleasure is pain, even imagined is just not cool.I consider myself fairly open minded. I don't care what everyone else likes but there are some limits to what I will shrug off. Oz is recreating a reality. It is not pointless nor gratitious. That incident sounds like some juvenile threat given form.

 

Well, despite being in the 'not an Authority fan' camp, I will point out that the motivation behind that particular incident was of the "Let's see how much you like it when someone does it to YOU" variety. As another poster said, that doesn't excuse it, but you could construe it as an attempt at moral instruction by direct experience. It's a step up from Rapeman. Still, just a touch over the top, I agree.

I remain more concerned about the mass-murder of entire countries by so-called superheroes because they can't be bothered to attempt a slightly more refined method of target selection than "There's lots of bad guys in Italy, let's chuck the entire peninsula into space."

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

Is it so hard to accept that a normal human martial artist is outpowered by a Chi wielding manga character.

 

By definition one of them has superpowers.

The original issue, as I understand it, was that while one had superpowers and the other didn't, they have the same 'character concept', or perhaps the same 'power origin' would express the concept better. The issue is not so much "It bothers me that 'Goku' is better than 'Shang Chi'," than that "In a universe where 'studying the martial arts' can get you to 'Goku', why would someone go to 'Shang Chi' and then stop? And having stopped short of the ultimate level of mastery, how can they call themselves a 'martial arts master'?"

Essentially, this is a conflict that can't be resolved without further definition of the rationale behind 'Chi Powers'. If your definition of 'Chi Powers' is simply 'Mutant/Alien/Magic/etc. Superpowers with a different name', then it is going to create exactly this sort of conflict of conception with 'purely physical martial arts'. The issue appears to be that Neil is either unable or unwilling to dictate a policy of fitting into a clearly defined world background to some of his players, even though he is not only willing but eager to do so with others. My suspicion is that since he clearly is a fan of the 'purely physical martial arts' genre, and not a fan of the 'Chi-based powers martial arts' genre, he's only allowing the second option as a result of player pressure. And, of course, if it doesn't work, he can blame 'the genre' rather than his own decision to apply a double standard to certain character concepts.

Consider, for instance, if Neil was a big fan of 'gun-toting action heroes', and allowed that character concept in his game, but imposed hefty restrictions on the amount of damage they could do, because after all, no matter how accurate they are, they're only firing a 9 mm pistol at their opponents. Purely in the interests of promoting 'genre faithfulness'. Then, one of his players comes along and says, "I just saw 'Eraser', starring Arnold Schwarzenneger, and I'd like to play a character with one of those Gauss rifle thingies." Now, Neil isn't a big fan of 'Eraser', but his player wants to play this character, so he eventually agrees to allow it. Now, the player builds a 'gun-toting action hero' just like the ones that already exist, only, because Neil hasn't given any thought to how Gauss rifles work, the player gives him a 20d6 AP EB and a multipower of special attack modes. Then, you know, since he's already 'hi-tech', he gives him some advanced combat armor, an onboard tactical computer, a utility belt VPP, and so on. Suddenly, the character is much more powerful and flexible than the existing 'gun-toting action heroes', and Neil doesn't understand why everyone doesn't start running around with Gauss rifles and power armor.

Well, neither do I.

When the GM defines certain elements of the game world very tightly, and allows the players to do whatever the hell they want in others, guess which character concepts the players are going to start gravitating to? Unless they have an unusually strong commitment to playing a particular character type, and agree with the GM about how that character type works in all particulars, eventually they're going to want to do something he won't allow to that concept, and if another concept fits their basic conception and is more open to interpretation, that's where they're going to decide to take the character.

The way I see it is, there are three ways you can go:

1) Define every element of the background to fit your conceptual desires & goals. Pros: Prevents any inconsistencies like the one under discussion. Cons: Creates an immense amount of work for the GM, and runs a high risk of alienating players, especially if they're expecting a 'free-form' game based on a genre like, oh let's say, superheroes...

2) Allow a free-form approach, and don't regulate characters for 'conceptual' issues. Limit any GM interventionism to 'play-balance' and 'rules-legality' issues. Pros: Very little prep work required, players will very likely enjoy their freedom. Little likelihood of a character being heavily overshadowed by other characters due to lack of power. Cons: Very little consistency in 'genre simulation', as players will inevitably have different ideas about what constitutes 'faithful representation of the genre'.

3) Follow a sort of bastardized hybrid approach, where the GM regulates the things he's willing to put some thought into, but allows players carte blanche in any area that's too much trouble for him to plan out in advance. Pros: Well, as long as nobody wants to do anything the GM has decided to ignore, it works a lot like option one... Only with fewer hassles for the GM. Cons: Some people might want to play Shang Chi, and others might want to play Goku. Brains explode as one is tightly limited by the GM and the other is allowed to rampage around at any power level he pleases with any abilities he likes.

Option 3 can work, as long as everyone, but most especially the GM, is willing to shrug their shoulders and soldier on, even in the face of apparent illogic. If you're having trouble reconciling some concepts with others, though, perhaps a different approach would be more appropriate for the genre and/or play group in question.

Re: The Authority:What the heck?

That...sounds strange.

It is strange, which is one reason why it inspires 'discussion'.

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

Now the first guy is all in the mode of the western idea of human fighter... but he is TOTALLY outclassed by the second guy in terms of power. The first guy can't justify (and yes, I very much control the amount of damage a character can do, based on their concept in my games) more than seven to 9 dice of damage with maybe find weakness... while the other guy could essentially justify massive energy blasts of 15-20 d6... 30 pt FF, etc. Both built on 350 points, but one clearly superior to the other... and thus you are shafting an entire genre character concept.

 

In the end, I think that is my problem. The two genres are in conflict... trying to meld them in a consistent manner shows the flaws in the genre concepts of both... and only one wins out in a game of comparison. So why would you ever play the human level "martial master" unless you just enjoy being the underpowered player on the team?

I suppose at that point, the trick is to impose some meaningful limitations on Fist of the Whirlwind that make sense in-genre. I mean, just because he 'has mastered his Chi' doesn't have to mean that his body can hold, exert or project any more energy than a normal human can. Is Chi necessarily more efficient than muscle-power? That sounds like a GM call to me. If 7-9 DC's are the most you can get out of your body using muscles and skill, then maybe that's the most you can get out of your body using Chi energy (which also originates in the body). Are there no drawbacks to using it? If not, then why doesn't everyone use it? Maybe you only have so much Chi in your body, and slinging it around instead of maintaining a balanced flow can be harmful. If Fist of the Whirlwind takes 6d6 Stun every time he throws his 12d6 Chi Whirlwind Strike (from over-exerting his Chi), he'll be falling back on his 'ordinary' MA skills all the time, and it would certainly explain why someone from one of the more mystical/philosophical/internal traditions would spurn the practice.

Do you allow non-powered Martial Artists in your campaign to have speed 6, DEX 23, STR 25, etc? Do you force them to pay double for exceeding NCM? If not, then why shouldn't they be able to hit 10 or 12 DC's with a combination of physical fitness and skill? Putatively, at least, that's the original motivation behind including the Martial Arts mechanics in Champions/Hero in the first place. To allow "I'm just a guy who knows Martial Arts" to compete on the level of "I'm a mutant who can shoot laser beams from my eyes".

If you define some relative advantages and limitations for the two schools of martial arts you could not only create the justification for the continued existence of 'pure' martial artists in your game, but also enrich the background of the campaign world, by creating competing schools of thought on super-powered martial arts (perhaps reminiscent of the existing philosophical and technical differences between 'hard' and 'soft' martial arts styles), which could in turn create story ideas, background hooks, rivalries between PCs & NPCs, and so on.

See, now you have me working out a whole new world background, to go with all the others on my Scrapheap of Game World Design.

Re: Reconciling Manga & Batman

How do you reconcile the "greatest fighter in the world as Batman" with the "greatest martial master in the world as Goku!"

Well, the short answer is: you don't. There can only be one 'greatest', unless you claim that 'fighter' and 'martial artist' are legitimately separate categories, in which case, they're sufficiently different concepts to make the whole question moot.

As for why Batman doesn't have Chi (or Ki/Ch'i/Qi or whatever) powers, there are a number of possible explanations. As people have suggested, maybe he doesn't want them, maybe he can't use them or maybe he does have them, they're just less obvious than Ye Olde Flaming Dragon Fist.

The real question is, where are all these people learning to use Chi powers? If you have to travel to the Lost City of K'un Lun to learn the ancient paths from the Monks of the Yengtao Temple (to mix a few universes), then it's simple... Batman doesn't have Chi powers because he's too busy being a detective to drop yet another 5 or 10 years on training in the mystic Orient to learn to project fire from his fists. He's got a Batarang, he can throw it, he's satisfied.

If such powers 'just happen', then, well, Batman is definitely an odd duck. On the other hand, he's got one or two psychological hangups. Maybe his unquenchable thirst for justice interferes with his meditation (it might be pretty hard to concentrate when every time you try to clear your mind, you see your parents dying all over again, or you start having bat-themed visions). Or, maybe he just doesn't believe in Chi.

One of the things I liked about the old Streetfighter RPG (yes, the one from White Wolf) was that some martial arts styles were based on Willpower, and others were based on Chi. The Willpower-themed styles tended to be more brutal, pragmatic, 'real-world' styles, while the Chi-themed styles tended more towards fireballs and inexplicable movement abilities. So maybe Batman is just 'one-of-the-best' at one of the less flashy, but still effective, Willpower styles. It would certainly fit his character concept.

As for whether or not he has Chi powers, I think you could justify them (at least in some versions of the character). How many times have we seen him disappear after stepping behind an object that obviously couldn't actually conceal his departure (moving bus, jumping over the side of a building, etc.)? I mean, the idea there is that he's just so good at being sneaky that he can defy physcial limitations, right? How is that (at base) different from being so good at fighting that he can defy physical limitations? Maybe he's just working in a subtler vein than that Goku guy.

And, of course, if you prefer the old school, reductionist Batman, then the reason he doesn't have Chi powers is because he devotes most of his time & ingenuity to building gadgets, and frankly his pure MA skills are a little rusty. After all, he mostly uses them against mooks. Against a real super-human, he just has to be good enough to tag them with This Week's Weakness-Exploiting Gadget, or else he points Superman at them.

Now, most of that only applies to the specific case of Batman. I think you can make a pretty good case for him not being a true 'martial arts master', though, so if your question becomes, "Why does Old Master Kwai down the street lack wacky Chi powerz, even after a lifetime of studying Kung Fu?" then we're back at square one. However, the basic possibilities remain the same.

Options (as I see them):

1) Non-chi styles. Old Master Kwai is a master of a particular sub-style of Kung Fu (or whatever) that espouses a philosophy of seeking physical perfection and/or mental discipline over spiritual energy manipulation.

2) Special training. Old Master Kwai has never traveled to K'un Lun.

3) Personal choice. "Huh. Fireballs. Teleportation. A true master craves not these things."

4) He does have Chi powers, he just hasn't shown them to you yet. Or he doesn't advertise them as such. Or he is unable/unwilling to use them for some reason (personal vow, physical infirmity, psychological hang-ups, etc.)

Another possibility (also derived from the Streetfighter RPG) is that flashy Chi powers are relatively new (or recently rediscovered after centuries of disuse). Thus, any given martial artist might be trained in the old 'traditional' physical-only styles or the new 'super' chi-using styles, based entirely on background. Perhaps there is a rivalry or philosophical dispute between the practitioners of each 'meta-school'. Thus, Old Master Kwai (or Shang Chi/Lady Shiva/whoever) is acknowledged as the 'greatest martial artist' by 'traditionalists', who deny that Goku is really a martial artist (by their definition) at all.

This leads to another possible explanation, which is that 'Goku' is utilizing some other special effect to generate his energy blasts (magic, psionics, midichlorians, alien space monkey powers) and just thinks he's doing it by 'harnessing his Chi'. Someone who naturally has the power to project fire from his fists, who first taps that power while performing a martial arts meditation exercise, might never contemplate the possibility that he could have done it anyhow. As far as he knows, it was the meditation exercise that did it. Weird how no one else has been able to master the trick. They're probably just not concentrating.

OK, I'm starting to wind down now.

Re: Historical Champions

I've toyed with trying to run a supers campaign in 14th century Europe. Frankly, though, I'm just too lazy to do the research and preparation to do it up right. Also, most of my ideas end up looking a little too much like Ars Magica with a different rationale for magic...

Re: Cool Names for a Superman Tribute Character?

I once ran a group that had two Superman tributes in it, they answered to Hyperion & Magnissimus.

Re: Campaign Idea

Someone mentioned the Wildcard Virus, which brings up an interesting question: What other effects do the superhero mutations carry, if any? Is that 1% rate the total infection rate, or is there a percentage of 'failed' changes? I would think the reaction to something that made 1% of the world's population superhuman would be different from something that that made 1% superhumans, 4% hideous mutants and 5% corpses.

Likewise, how widespread is the change? Just one geographic region? Only major cities? Everywhere? If, as in the Rising Stars comics, the superhumans are confined to ~100 individuals in a single town, then the government will absolutely try to contain them for study (and possible exploitation). If supers start randomly popping up everywhere, then it's likely that no one will even try to round them up. If its just major cities that are affected, then unless the effects are entirely benevolent, there's likely to be some panicked flight from the cities, and the government may attempt to move in to control that, possibly nabbing/recruiting a bunch of supers in the process (more as a side effect of declaring martial law than anything else).

Also, people's reactions are going to be at least partially dictated, as Hermit said, by their portrayal in the media before the event and immediately after. Additionally, the first major superhuman to get widespread media exposure will very likely set the tone. If he's like Superman (or Aberrant's Fireman), then the initial impression will be positive, and people will initially be inclined to treat supers as if they were 4-color do-gooders, even if they aren't. If he's a Magneto-type who's decided that the superhuman transformation is the dawning of a new race of Mankind, destined to supplant and destroy Homo Sapiens (just to pick a random example), then no amount of PR will convince the populace at large or the government that any supers, including the PCs, can be completely trustworthy.

Just off the top of my head, I would say that most governments would be inclined to contain the supers if it seemed even slightly feasible, for study. The military and intelligence communities would want to recruit supers, but would refrain from doing so for several months (at the very least) while they attempted to determine exactly what was going on. Most governments would not immediately label the supers terrorists, criminals or threats to public safety without at least strong circumstantial evidence to back up such an accusation. Wild rumors would circulate, fringe groups would call them all sorts of things (angels, demons, messengers from the stars, ancient Lemurian war gods, you name it), but unless someone manages to arrange a commission of Nobel laureates issuing reams of reports to substantiate them, nobody would take any of those theories very seriously. Certainly any kind of dictatorial or totalitarian governments could do whatever they wanted, but the majority would proceed with caution, and adopt a 'wait and see' attitude. However, if any kind of Magneto-clone shows up, starts blowing up military bases and amassing hordes of loyal followers, then you might start seeing the crackdown.

Also, when you say 'less than 1%', do you mean "pretty close to 1%", or "actually a LOT less than 1%, I'm just using 1% as a placeholder for 'a very small number'"? One percent of the world's population is over 6,000,000 people. Are you prepared to figure out what will happen with ~800,000 supers running around in NYC? It will definitely change things. One percent is actually quite a large number. At anything approaching 1% of the world's population, no government would be able to effectively control the supers via force, even if most of those 'supers' had very minor powers. The governments would realize this very quickly and take pains not to create any kind of "Humans vs. Mutants" racial war if they could avoid it. That means no internment camps, no forced conscription, none of that, even if they otherwise would have tried these tactics. The smaller the super population, the more likely these tactics are to at least seem feasible, if not any more moral or desirable.

Re: Title for the next HERO villains book

That one's actually pretty good, though I might rearrange the word order.

 

Well, it is (or rather, will be) your book, I'm hardly going to try to dictate the title...

I've tried saying it out loud, and you're right, it doesn't really roll trippingly off the tongue in its current form. This must be why you're the big-shot game designer, and I'm just a fan who bangs words together...

Re: Arena Challenge

I don't have the requisite source book' date=' so I have to ask: does Iron Clad have a vulnerability to magnetic attacks? [/quote']

 

Yes, x2 STUN from Magnetic Attacks.

Re: Title for the next HERO villains book

Doug-I like your suggestion' date=' in similar vein might be...Maniacs, Monsters, and Masterminds[/quote']

 

I suspect that DoJ will avoid using these names, on the premise that the logical abbreviation (MMM) is already being used by Monsters, Minions and Marauders.

 

Fiends, Felons and Foes?

Re: Multiforms and Experience

I had never even considered awarding experience separately to different forms of a Multiform character. And having considered it, I don't think it's appropriate to do so. Regardless of special effects, mechanically the multiple forms are not separate characters, they are a single character with a Power. As a GM, you shouldn't dictate to the player how his experience will be spent on a Multiform character any more than you would to, say, an energy blaster character. Unless you're in the habit of giving directed awards to everyone, you shouldn't single out the Multiform player for this treatment.

Even if you and your players are happy with you telling them how to spend their experience, mechanically you still should be awarding the points to the base form to be spent on the Multiform Power. Remember, if the secondary form exceeds the cost of the base form, he loses the 1 pt. = 5 pts. cost break, so at that point it's mathematically pretty much the same as awarding the points to the secondary form, anyway. And if the secondary form is less expensive than the base form, then awarding the points to the secondary form directly amounts to diddling the player out of 80% of his experience award.

Generally, you should simply award the points to the base form and allow the player to spend them on the Multiform Power or the base form's other Powers, just like anyone else.

Speaking of mixed power levels

A while back I was toying with running a mixed-power-level game based on Alan Moore's Top 10. Each player would be given a pool of points (say, 600 or so) with which to build 2 characters, who would work together as partners in their role as super-powered police officers. Thus, some partnerships would be like those of Smax and Toybox (or King Peacock & Synesthesia), where one is clearly the powerhouse and the other is primarily a utility character, while others could have roughly equivalent power and skill levels, much like the team of Shockheaded Peter and Dust Devil, or Irma Geddon & Joe Pi.

Where I ran into trouble was with the realization that if I wanted to make a real police procedural out of it, there would be relatively little interaction between partnerships, and thus players would essentially operate independently of one another, or have to swap characters around while I as GM tried to keep track of half a dozen or more separate story lines. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I didn't want to have to be the one to do it...

Re: Upon Further Review: The Champions

Unless the Champions get a serious rewrite, similar to the one the previous team received in the 4th edition Champions Universe, they're no match for their Hunteds.

Well, you'll note that the 4th ed. Champions did get that re-write, primarily because they were also badly under-powered and over-Disadvantaged relative to even half-way competently designed PCs. Frankly, even the CU upgrade barely helped them in terms of raw combat power. It wasn't until Watchers of the Dragon and The Ultimate Mentalist that we got to see the "iconic, Avengers/JLA-level" treatments of Seeker and Solitaire, and none of the others made it to that level at all.

I once did a series of test fights between Seeker and a newly-designed character. I think I played the combat out 3 times. Seeker made it to Segment 5 of Turn 1 once. He also managed to damage my guy once, to the tune of about 5-6 Stun. There's a reason he was unconscious on the cover of all those supplements.

Nothing matches the all-mighty incompetence of Starburst, though.

Re: Your Inner Circle

Madam Moonlight (a vampire I may have swiped from a Dark Champions Supplement, I cannot remember)

Sounds like Lady Twilight from Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies

Re: Dark Champions: Secret Worlds

Well, naturally I'm sorry to see Secret Worlds go. These writeups have been both informative and entertaining. Still, sometimes experiments don't work out. I've had dozens of campaigns die on me, both as a player and as a GM.

Friend of mine has a D&D game that he periodically tries to get going, which involves a bunch of high-level characters trying to save the world from a World-Eating Demon. So far, it's World-Eating Demon 4 - Adventurers 0. And it's not that we don't WANT to defeat the demon. It's always scheduling conflicts or people moving away or spending a couple months in the hospital or something. That World-Eating Demon is a cagey one, all right...

Re: Storn Art from idea to full picture

I'm still going with Braincheck' date=' Cyanide and Vertigo[/quote']

 

I'm intrigued by Braincheck. Can't get enough of brains, myself.

Re: Looking for HERO stats for: "Bullseye"

Here's a handy short bio on Bullseye for anyone interested in doing a full write-up. I'd do it, but I'm at work, lazy and easily distracted:

http://marvelbook.topcities.com/abcd/bullseye.htm

Re: Expanding Shield Bubble

Depending on special effects, I can see it as either:

1) a Force Wall or

2) a Force Field with the Usable by Others Simultaneously advantage (possibly with a Limited Power limitation to reflect that they have to stay close to you).

Don't have a copy of USPD on me (I'm at work), but you should be able to extrapolate it from the base power pretty easily. Perhaps build it as a separate slot in an any Power Framework you're already using to represent your Density powers.

Re: Setting Idea

Just finished re-reading the series last month, actually. Though I found myself skipping ahead through some bits of it. It really does have a lot of potential as a setting. I especially liked Moon's treatment of gnomes (definitely a nice change of pace from "incompetent mechanics", "tricky illusionists" or "skinny dwarves" which is the usual spectrum). The elves were well-done, too, occupying a nice middle ground between Tolkien-inspired etherealness and a somewhat more prosaic realism.

Also, I remember thinking, when I read the Complete Paladin's Handbook (for AD&D 2ed.), that some of the ideas in there were inspired by the Deed of Paksenarrion.

Re: How would you describe the "feel" of the Turakian Age?

"I love the smell of cataclysm in the morning... Smells like victory."

Re: Nothing personal Ben, but I killed you last night.

I often use non-English names for aliens. Somewhere I've got the 1998 edition of the Writer's Market naming guide. One alien race gets all Sioux names, the guys on the next planet over get Finnish, their traditional foes from the next star system are all named in Farsi, etc. Naturally, you'll want to be careful with names in languages your players are familiar with. However, even if your players know a Japanese or Korean name when they hear it, creative rearrangement of syllables and spelling conventions works wonders.

Re: Evil Businessmen.

Why not Ross Perot? Ever since he ran for president' date=' your people have treated him like the crazy aunt you hide in the basement![/quote']

 

That's not true at all! Ross Perot is male, so we treat him like our crazy UNCLE we hide in the basement...

 

"What's that noise?"

 

"Oh, that's just crazy ol' Uncle Ross. He's doing the 'Giant Sucking Sound' thing again."

Re: Campaign levels

These are the levels I usually play at:

350 pts.

10-15 DC/up to 75 AP

15-30 defenses

Dex 14-33

Spd 4-7

Obviously there's some additional wiggle room for certain concepts, especially at the low end. I've seen some very slow bricks and very fragile MAs. I've also seen a couple of SPD 9 speedsters and at least one character with DEX 38.

Currently I'm playing in a 350-pt. 'no caps' campaign, which we started as an experiment. Mostly what we've learned is that really huge VPPs pretty much break the game under those conditions (this was hardly a surprise) and that 3 characters built around large VPPs tend to all look the same after a while (also not very startling). I've lost count of the number of times we said something to the effect of "OK, the three of us will turn invisible and fly up to the roof, then we'll go Desolid and scout out the building. You two hang out here in the alley and we'll let you know if we need backup."

Eventually, I re-wrote my VPP character as a Multipower character, and am much happier with him. You'd be amazed at how quickly "I can do 75 points' worth of whatever I want!" can get boring, and I think it did have a demoralizing effect on the other players.

Re: Evil Businessmen.

Martha Stewart (hehe!!)

Hawksmoor

Well, I'm certainly not Martha's biggest fan, but methinks she's been overdone. I think that if I were to use her in a Champions game, she'll be a superhero. The whole 'perfect homemaker/entrepreneur' image would be her answer to the Bruce Wayne 'billionaire playboy' cover.