Aid to STR or STR with Limitations?

[Crusty]

I’m building the Hulk For sixth and am using Surbrook’s (5th edition?) builds for inspiration 

 

Im making statements here which might not be correct. It’s been a long time and a few rules changes since I’ve used Aid and my memory is foggy

 

Anyway, a maximum value is listed in Surbrook’s Aid powers, between 90 to 120 points, give or take, and this confuses me

 

in Sixth, the max Aid is the amount you can roll on the dice (6e1 167), so a 5d6 Aid maxes at 30 points. You can roll multiple times, but even with Constant you’re maxed at 30 points. If I’m reading it right. 

 

So how do I “stack” Aid for greater long term effect, like those 90 or greater effects in Surbrook’s builds?
 

My first thought On all this was STR bought as powers with limitations; 25 points kicking in at Enraged, and 50 at Berserk.
 

If I can build with Aid where the totals can be in Surbrook’s ranges, or greater, that may be more what I’m looking for

 

so what’s the best way to build this? Where did Surbrook’s numbers come from?

 

I’m thinking there’s a straightforward answer I’m not figuring out. Help is appreciated!

 

[tombrown803]

Surbrook's builds are for 5th edition. In that one you could increase the maximum effect by 2 for every one character point, i.e. for a max of 90 strength it cost an extra 45 AP to the power. It appears that option was removed in 6th edition.

[Crusty]

That’s a nice benefit for 5 points. I can see where that could be abused

[Thia Halmades]

That’s why it was taken out. 

 

You want to build The Hulk. Your primary power purchases are going to be Growth, Density Increase, and if that’s insufficient strength, I would purchase Strength, (Only in Heroic Form, -1/4). I forget what it got called in 6, it was “Only in Heroic Identity,” commonly shortened to “OIHID” and it was adjusted from -1/2 to -1/4. 

 

Aid is used as a temporary boost that has a specific drop off level; it’s a classic buff to ability, and how we build things like D&D Haste, or a shot of Adrenalin, etc. Not usually appropriate without a lot of hammering for someone who is transforming from state A to state B. 

 

Lemme know if that answered the second half of your question.

[Crusty]

Hello Thia. These are more nuance questions. The Fifth ed 5 point Aid adder for increasing effect confused me but tombrown squared that up. And Growth and density increase always on were removed in 6. Now they’re complications. 
 

right now he’s being built as a multi form (this isn’t for play btw. Its a build to dial in the hulk the way I see him. Nothing is written in stone) so OIAID doesn’t apply, although that may change

 

it's the relationship between anger and STR I’m trying to simulate without tying it to combat facing situations like enraged or berserk 

[Thia Halmades]

For me, it always comes back to activation and placing limits on the buffs. For Aiden (closest thing I ever played to the Hulk) his “transform to dragon form” was a special effect, I never purchased multi-form. I think it’s a great function, but I personally always found it incredibly awkward. That’s me though. 

[unclevlad]

Thia:  In 6E it's not 'heroic' it's Alternate.  OIAID.  Because villains can certainly take it.

 

The point about not using Always On with Growth, Shrinking, and DI is...there's no point.  Just buy the STR, defenses, and KB resistance (for DI);  the mass becomes the Phys Complication.  The SFX is "density increase"  One thing about doing it this way is, you're not limited to the benefits of the powers.  For example:  titanium's density is 5.  That's more or less the starting point...the character will have "2 levels of always on DI."  But I'm not gonna do +2 PD/ED...to me, that's either 6 rPD/rED, or perhaps 4 dice of physical and energy damage negation.  Change the definition, change the power.  Graphene and carbon nanotubes become the skin and muscle;  graphite becomes the joint lubricant.  Now it becomes damage reduction, rather than negation;  the tissues are durable, and the blow gets dissipated rather than completely stopped.  And my most extreme case is also done in a Mulitform;  one of the forms conceptually has 2 levels of shrinking and 6 levels of DI (so he's normal mass).  His nominal density is 64.  How hard and how durable would that make him?  It's 3x the density of the very heavy metals like iridium, osmium, and tungsten, all of which are incredibly tough.  (I think ALL his defenses are Resistant, Hardened, and Impenetrable, altho I might've split between that and damage negation.)

 

Basically, especially if it's gonna be Always On, don't limit yourself to the package powers.  They're all built from components;  feel free to tweak those.

 

The anger --> STR....yeah, it's a Limited Power.  You just need to define the condition.  One I can remember would be frustration.  HULK CHAINED!!??!!!!  OK, so...any time Hulk's STR is not up to snuff, like bashing through a wall or snapping chains, he gets mad and therefore stronger.  And by the comics, it's ANY time...so that suggests Aid to STR, on a Trigger that itself has an activation roll.  So...

 

Aid 4d6

--Expanded Effect (+1/2):  --> STR and Aid, where the improvement to Aid is to allow the maximum effect to increase ONLY.  

--Delayed Return Rate, 5 per minute (+1)

--0 END

--Trigger:  Zero Phase to activate, Zero Phase to reset (+1/2)

--Only on the trigger (11- activation when frustrated)

 

The limitation value is kinda open, as is whether or not you think the delayed return rate fits.  Hey, Hulk should NOT be cheap.

 

 

 

[Crusty]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

The anger --> STR....yeah, it's a Limited Power.  You just need to define the condition.  One I can remember would be frustration.  HULK CHAINED!!??!!!!  OK, so...any time Hulk's STR is not up to snuff, like bashing through a wall or snapping chains, he gets mad and therefore stronger.  And by the comics, it's ANY time...so that suggests Aid to STR, on a Trigger that itself has an activation roll.  So...

 

Aid 4d6

--Expanded Effect (+1/2):  --> STR and Aid, where the improvement to Aid is to allow the maximum effect to increase ONLY.  

--Delayed Return Rate, 5 per minute (+1)

--0 END

--Trigger:  Zero Phase to activate, Zero Phase to reset (+1/2)

--Only on the trigger (11- activation when frustrated)

 

The limitation value is kinda open, as is whether or not you think the delayed return rate fits.  Hey, Hulk should NOT be cheap.

 

 

That is a very nice solution 👍

 

5d6 aid - 72 points for 90 AP if the math or right. 

Yeah the points 😬 but we are talking about the Hulk lol

[unclevlad]

It's a total of + 2 1/2...0 END is another +1/2.  Figured that was obvious.  So 5d6 is 105 active.  How much it should be is open to debate.  I might do 5d6 with standard effect, as +10 STR, 0 END...if I'm worried about it.  That's the way it's depicted, IMO.  Or if you think Hulk's got ridiculous REC and END to start with, 5d6 standard effect means +15 STR, therefore +3 dice, each time.  Makes tracking VERY simple.

 

The real cost depends on what you think the Uncontrolled aspect (that is, only on the trigger) is really worth.  I'm disinclined to say the full -2 because the condition becomes "when he finds out he needs it, it'll be there...soon enough anyway."  So I'd go with -1/2, and probably -3/4 if you go with the standard effect rule.  5d6 standard effect is only 15;  rolling, that's the average of 4d6+1.  And heck, the extra points you shave off going from -1/2 to -3/4 isn't that much.  Lessee...4d6+1 AID with +2 1/2 is 91 active;  with a -1/2 limit, it's 61.  5d6 AID is 105 active, with -3/4 limit is...60.  Excellent.

[Crusty]

I left the reduced endurance out, neglected to mention that! I remember the hulk getting tired from time to time,  and tactically, if he needs to take a break, it’s a good time to get him. I might even crank up the END cost a little, see if I can get him actually using a phase or two for REC against a good foe
 

Making him useful is the other part. That’s why this is such a good solution. Really appreciate it. 
 

why the enhanced limitation cost for using standard effect? I’m ok from benefiting from it, don’t get me wrong! but my first thought would be to not allow it

[unclevlad]

Because Standard Effect is 3 per die.  Average is 3.5.  So 4d6+1 averages 15;  5d6 standard effect is also 15, but it's increasing the base cost.  In this case as well, Standard Effect of 15 points of effect works GREAT for me as GM and you as player.  It totally simplifies the book keeping, and thus speeds up the game.  It doesn't affect the final cost materially either.  One thing to remember is that the value of each incremental 1/4 limitation goes DOWN just due to the nature of the math.  For a 50 point power,

 

-1/4  == 40 points (or, save 10)

-1/2  == 33 points (or, save 7 more)

-3/4  == 28 points (or, save 4 more)

-1  == 25 points (or, save 3 more)

 

Ohhh...BAD ME.  Big limitation you can kick in, Only to Aid Self.  Again, I think there's overlap with the Only on a Trigger, I dunno if it's the full -1.  It would be quite easy to accept the total package of limitations as a -1 overall, tho.  So 105 --> 52.

 

If you want to push the Self Only at its full -1, then Only when Triggered should be -1/2...not that it would matter much.  

 

I'm also willing to be flexibile, especially in these rather ambiguous areas, when you're not trying to scrimp.  The advantages...especially the fade rate...might be overkill, but if you're willing to eat that, then I'm willing to give some breaks on the limitations.  If we're starting with the full -1 on Only to Aid Self, then that's covering a lot right there.  I'll give the -1/2 for Only when Triggered, but I think that's as far as I'd go.  Yes, funky power definitions become negotiations.  Yes, absolutely, others would read it differently.  And they wouldn't be wrong.  The rules allow some sick stuff, technically:

 

5 levels of Alternate Desolid (from APG, it's like Density Decrease), costs END only to Activate, can't pass through solids.  31 active, 21 real.   (You basically get some Tunneling, plus 5 PD/ED)

 

Now:

50% resistant DR, Energy, linked to Desolid  -- 20 real

50% resistant DR, Physical, linked to Desolid  -- 20 real.  Note that you can also put Costs END to Activate on both.

 

Option 2:  Compound Power, 50% resistant DR, phys and energy.  60 active.  Costs END to activate, full phase to activate...each is -1/4.  So 40 real.  BUT now you can link a 60 point multipower to the compound power, plus the Desolid...and perhaps the Flight.

 

The heck with OIAID;  I'm getting most of this character off Linked.

 

And truly obscene...but allowed by HD...the Alternate Desolid.  A Compound power with the DRs, where each is now also linked to the Desolid. Oh, and you keep the multipower linked to THIS.  (Damage-based END Cost is in APG.)

21    Decoupled:

             Desolidification , Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)
30    Translucence: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost)

              Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Damage-based END Cost (1 per 5 STUN) (-1/2), Linked (Decoupled; -1/2) (Real Cost: 15)

              plus Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Damage-based END Cost (1 per 5 STUN) (-1/2), Linked (Decoupled; -1/2) (Real Cost: 15) 
30    Phase Blast:

          Blast 3d6, Variable SFX (Limited Group of SFX; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2), AVAD (LS: Vacuum; NND; +1), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4),

          Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (60 Active Points); Linked (Translucence; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4)

          (note: variable SFX means can change the NND...at least LS High Pressure,, probably others)
13    LS  (High Pressure; High Radiation; Intense Cold; Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing) (19 Active Points); Linked (Decoupled; -1/2)
8    Sight Group Flash Defense (12 points) (12 Active Points); Linked (Decoupled; -1/2) 
      
24    Flight 24m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Linked to Translucence

This is exploiting Linked big time, and saving 42 points.  Oh, and in case you're thinking that Blast is tiny?  It's exploiting another aspect:  Ranged Martial Arts, in particular Ranged DCs.  Ranged DCs apply to each hit from the Autofire.

 

If someone tried to play this in a game, where I'm worrying about character balance...it'd be abusive.  I built this for fun, in a context where it'd be more reasonable to do it this way.    The point is:  IF I allowed as much to be included on Linked, I'd very likely not give much ground on other things.  OTOH, a character defined with very few points shaved by limitations, might get some slack in buying, say, skills or perks for 'free' if they fit.  Because they're not trying to chisel the game the way this major use of Linked is.

[Thia Halmades]

On 9/14/2020 at 1:19 PM, Crusty said:

Hello Thia. These are more nuance questions. The Fifth ed 5 point Aid adder for increasing effect confused me but tombrown squared that up. And Growth and density increase always on were removed in 6. Now they’re complications. 
 

right now he’s being built as a multi form (this isn’t for play btw. Its a build to dial in the hulk the way I see him. Nothing is written in stone) so OIAID doesn’t apply, although that may change

 

it's the relationship between anger and STR I’m trying to simulate without tying it to combat facing situations like enraged or berserk 

 

Crusty, I’m slightly rusty. Your answer is Trigger, does not control activation of personal trigger, whenever she gets properly pissed off. Then set it as a psych lim. Remember that enraged doesn’t necessarily mean “throws plates at walls,” it can be any heightened emotional state. This is going to require some cooperation to make it look & feel right, but I would place the weight on the psych complications and make sure the character’s personality is well defined. It can be down purely to role playing, with the GM being trusted to highlight moments they think are appropriate for the transform.

 

Hope that helps!