MMM: Are Orcs Stronger Than Humans?

[Tempuswolf]

A hypothetical question: you are using a humanoid race from Monsters, Minions, and Marauders "off the shelf" not customizing it for your campaign. Let's say it's the orc.

 

The stats listed for the orc (Str 12, etc.) compare to which human stat set from Hero 5th? The orc is described as being a typical, competent individual the player might encounter.

 

Do you compare the orc listed in MMM to:

 

A) The Average Person (Str 8)

The Noteworthy Normal (Str 10)

C) The Skilled or Competent Normal (Str 13)

[Monolith]

I think it depends. I tend to use the scale that humans are base-line 10, not 8. I like to think of 8 stat individuals as sub-par just as some 11-13 stat individuals are above average, but not overly exceptional.

 

I also don't see the orc's STR of 12 as being really any stronger than a typical human. I would assume due to the nature of manual labor that most farmer/farming hamlet types would have a 12 STR due to the physical labor involved. To me the orc's power comes from the savagery and reputation.

[Earen]

I would have to agree that it depends also ... depends on what is normal for your campaign. I tend to go with 10 in all characteristics for an average mature human. If you take into account the elderly and children ... that's where the 8 stats come in.

 

So yes, in my book, an average mature orc is slightly stronger than an average mature human ... based on MMM.

[TheTemplar]

Echoey in here? Yep.

 

I also agree. I've set average "Normal" characteristics at 10 in my FH campaign, figuring that the slightly above (10-12) and slightly belows (8-10) should average out to 10. If the average Orc has a STR 12, then a slightly above average Orc might fall into a 12-14 STR while a slightly weaker than average orc would fall into a 10-12 STR range. I think Orcs are physically (in terms of STR and possibly CON) a little superior on the average to humans. Of course, there's also then the issue of Penalties associated w/ their race (Sub-average human INT, EGO, or COM for instance.) In the end, as long as your races (particularly the ones your PC's are choosing from) are pretty equally balanced, you really shouldn't have any serious gameplay issues to worry about and can customize the races however you see fit.

 

My 2 Silvers

[Killer Shrike]

I prefer Orcs being stronger & tougher than humans, but less bright and social.

 

Also remember that all of the published FH material is not canon -- its just examples. You can make Orcs as strong or not as you please in your own settings.

[Killer Shrike]

I dont have the Orc Race Package up yet for my campaigns, bcs it will be part of the Bestiary when I have that done, but the Half-Orc stats are close:

 

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I dont have the Orc Race Package up yet for my campaigns, bcs it will be part of the Bestiary when I have that done, but the Half-Orc stats are close:

You allow the NCM Disadvantage in your fantasy games? So everyone is built not using the NCM rules then, and only certain individuals have NCM? Because NCM is supposed to be a 0 point Disadvantage in Heroic Level games. Just curious.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

You allow the NCM Disadvantage in your fantasy games? So everyone is built not using the NCM rules then, and only certain individuals have NCM? Because NCM is supposed to be a 0 point Disadvantage in Heroic Level games. Just curious.

I run High Fantasy games, using superheroic rules across the board with the exception that mundane Equipment and "Ephemeral Magic Items" (ie magic items w/ Non-Recoverable charges) costs money.

 

The Race Packages all include NCM and DF, and as a variation from HERO System rules, Race Package disadvantages do not count against a characters Disadvantage total, effectively discounting the cost of the Race Package.

 

Looked at from a different perspective, each characters Disadvantage total is 75 points of "personal" disadvantage, plus however many points of Race-based disadvantages. Whichever way you prefer to think of it.

 

The way I handle Race Packages is all described in depth here:

 

[Tempuswolf]

So three votes for B, and one vote for C.

 

I think I'll go with B too then. Thanks for the feedback.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I run High Fantasy games, using superheroic rules across the board with the exception that mundane Equipment and "Ephemeral Magic Items" (ie magic items w/ Non-Recoverable charges) costs money.

 

The Race Packages all include NCM and DF, and as a variation from HERO System rules, Race Package disadvantages do not count against a characters Disadvantage total, effectively discounting the cost of the Race Package.

 

Looked at from a different perspective, each characters Disadvantage total is 75 points of "personal" disadvantage, plus however many points of Race-based disadvantages. Whichever way you prefer to think of it.

That is pretty interesting, as I have just started making notes on a Fantasy Hero game I was planning on writing. The game is going to be mythology-based, and as such I am expecting to include demi-god characters and the like, and was thinking of doing away with the NCM rules to allow for Heracles/Beowulf style characters. So I was just curious as to how you handled it.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

That is pretty interesting, as I have just started making notes on a Fantasy Hero game I was planning on writing. The game is going to be mythology-based, and as such I am expecting to include demi-god characters and the like, and was thinking of doing away with the NCM rules to allow for Heracles/Beowulf style characters. So I was just curious as to how you handled it.

Extra-planar entities would not necessarily have NCM at all in my schema. Some may, but not necessarily all.

 

Entities which cant be determined to belong to an actual Race with common characteristics wouldnt have a Race Package at all, and thus would not have NCM unless they took it as a Personal Disadvantage, assuming the GM allowed a Player to play one as a PC, or opted to build one as an antagonist in such a fashion.

 

Even if there were a Race of entities that shared common characteristics, the GM could at his option not take NCM in the Race Package if they chose not to. Similarly if the Race could take whatever form they pleased, Distinctive Features would not be taken either. Thus to make a Race of god-like beings similar to the Asgardians or the Valerhu or something along those lines, a Race Package could be constructed simply lacking NCM. The end result is the Package will cost 20 points more than it would otherwise, but as usual with NCM, if a characters characteristics are high enough the NCM doubling can exceed the rebate from the Disadvantage anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

On a side note, in the past Ive allowed characters w/ appropriate concept to take a Partial NCM for -10 points whereing 1 Primary is not affected by NCM (and any figured characteristic based on that Primary ignores the portion calced from that Primary when determining NCM).

 

This was a requires special permission kind of thing, but worked out well, allowing "son of a diety" type characters to have a remarkable ability without the temptation to go across-the-board superheroic.

[slaughterj]

As with Killer Shrike, I also do not agree with "The Fantasy HERO 5e document also discourages the use of Distinctive Features in Race Package Deals based solely on being a member of that race (i.e. DF: Elf)." For FH, every character has DF based on his race, even humans, because it's not like they can blend in but so well with other races of humans, or dwarves, etc. It only makes sense to me.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by slaughterj

As with Killer Shrike, I also do not agree with "The Fantasy HERO 5e document also discourages the use of Distinctive Features in Race Package Deals based solely on being a member of that race (i.e. DF: Elf)." For FH, every character has DF based on his race, even humans, because it's not like they can blend in but so well with other races of humans, or dwarves, etc. It only makes sense to me.

I am not sure how I want to handle this yet. I can see DF working both ways. In a world where you see elves and dwarves and every other race walking through your town everyday they are really not distinctive enough to warrant a Disad. This would be like seeing a white person, or a black person, or an asian person in our society. You notice the visual difference, but it is not really a major factor from a distinctive standpoint.

 

Now the elves I am writing, for example, are exceptionally rare. Most people would not see an elf in their lifetime, as they are loners who seldom travel with other races. Now to me, that justifies a DF, because it is rare and unique to see an elf and so you notice the differences more. But I also have dwarves who are basically the major merchants of the campaign, and as such are seen by almost everyone all the time. So I am not sure if I will give them a DF, but I am thinking not.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Monolith

I am not sure how I want to handle this yet. I can see DF working both ways. In a world where you see elves and dwarves and every other race walking through your town everyday they are really not distinctive enough to warrant a Disad. This would be like seeing a white person, or a black person, or an asian person in our society. You notice the visual difference, but it is not really a major factor from a distinctive standpoint.

 

Now the elves I am writing, for example, are exceptionally rare. Most people would not see an elf in their lifetime, as they are loners who seldom travel with other races. Now to me, that justifies a DF, because it is rare and unique to see an elf and so you notice the differences more. But I also have dwarves who are basically the major merchants of the campaign, and as such are seen by almost everyone all the time. So I am not sure if I will give them a DF, but I am thinking not.

 

I understand your reticence, but here's where I'm coming from. FH apparently already figures Dwarf, Elf, etc. merit DF. I also think that each type of Human merits this as well, probably for many Heroic level campaigns. For instance in a modern-day spy Hero situation, being 007 probably doesn't facilitate infiltrating a group of Middle Eastern terrorists, as would someone of that origin. For FH, you typically have a range of human races (as well as differences within non-human races), for instance the pale northern barbarians, the swarthy desert folk, the dark-skinned jungle people, etc. that often populate fantasy worlds all would be a problem for a character to blend in - to me, that's the heart of DF, and it justifies when the swarthy desert raiders don't immediately accept the northern barbarian as they would their own people.

[Earen]

I also tend to lean away from using DF for all situations. I use the "police lineup" test. Say character X is a member of race Y. If X committed a murder and witness Z saw it ... how significant would it be if Z said, "Well ... he was a Y." If that doesn't significantly narrow the field of "suspects" ... then it's not Distinctive Features.

 

So, if they said, "He's an elf." But in the campaign setting there's 20% elves ... then that doesn't really narrow the playing field. But if he said, "He's an elf with a tattoo of a tree covering the entire front of his torso." Now that's distinctive ...

 

Of course ... if they said, "He's an elf." And in the entire town of 5,000 there's two elves. Well, that's distinctive too ...

[TheTemplar]

I think Earen's on the right track with regards to DF being a racial disad. The bottom line for any disad that gives the player more character points is that it must actually be a disad in your setting. If being an Elf or a Dwarf is not an issue of some sort of conflict in your campaign, then it isn't really a viable disad. However, if there's (stereotypically) a great deal of animosity between, say, Elves and Dwarves, and your Campaign will journey into a great underground Dwarven kingdom, then I'd say that that it is definitely a disadvantage to the Elf that his features are obviously Elven.

 

Now, in most Fantasy settings that I've played in, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and even Gnomes are integrated enough into most of the urban societies, that it isn't really a disad to have their distinctive features. However, if you have a player playing some sort of Half breed or monstrous race, where his distinctive features will make people hate, fear, or suspect him (Half-Orc, for instance) then I think that would warrant a DF on the package deal.

 

But, as with all things in HERO, remember it really just comes down to how it fits into your campaign. If it's not something that's really ever going to pose a stumbling block to the player, then it isn't really a disad (or, at best, a 0 point disad.)

 

Doesn't it say somewhere in FREd that "A DIsadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!"? Great one-liner.

[Earen]

Originally posted by TheTemplar

Doesn't it say somewhere in FREd that "A DIsadvantage that isn't a Disadvantage isn't worth any points!"? Great one-liner.

 

p211 of FREd ... titled "The Basic Law Of Disadvantages" ... has come in handy many, many times.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Earen

So, if they said, "He's an elf." But in the campaign setting there's 20% elves ... then that doesn't really narrow the playing field.

Er, yes it does -- by 80% in fact, a not inconsequential difference. Im sure that in real life police would love any tidbit like that which disqualified 4 out of every 5 potential suspects.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by slaughterj

I understand your reticence, but here's where I'm coming from. FH apparently already figures Dwarf, Elf, etc. merit DF. I also think that each type of Human merits this as well, probably for many Heroic level campaigns. For instance in a modern-day spy Hero situation, being 007 probably doesn't facilitate infiltrating a group of Middle Eastern terrorists, as would someone of that origin.

Sir Richard Burton was the first "white" man to visit Mecca. He did this by looking like an Arab. So it is not impossible.

 

For FH, you typically have a range of human races (as well as differences within non-human races), for instance the pale northern barbarians, the swarthy desert folk, the dark-skinned jungle people, etc. that often populate fantasy worlds all would be a problem for a character to blend in - to me, that's the heart of DF, and it justifies when the swarthy desert raiders don't immediately accept the northern barbarian as they would their own people.

I agree, but what I think you are dealing with here is a 0 point DF. Something along the lines of Easily Concealable, Noticed & Recognized, Not Distinctive In Some Cultures. The Disadvantage is there, but it is just not really limiting to any great degree. I will probably build most of my Package Deals with the 0 point Disad myself.

[Earen]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Er, yes it does -- by 80% in fact, a not inconsequential difference. Im sure that in real life police would love any tidbit like that which disqualified 4 out of every 5 potential suspects.

 

Not as much as they would like something like, "He had a tattoo of an anchor on each forearm." I would say that many people know right off the bat who I'm talking about in that quote. Whereas if I said, "I'm thinking about an elf ... guess which one," I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to figure it out without more clues.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Monolith

Sir Richard Burton was the first "white" man to visit Mecca. He did this by looking like an Arab. So it is not impossible.

 

 

I agree, but what I think you are dealing with here is a 0 point DF. Something along the lines of Easily Concealable, Noticed & Recognized, Not Distinctive In Some Cultures. The Disadvantage is there, but it is just not really limiting to any great degree. I will probably build most of my Package Deals with the 0 point Disad myself.

 

Sure, but Burton would have been subjected to at least major reaction or prejudice if discovered I suspect that same would be the case for the northern barbarian in the cannibal-infested jungle - he'd be seen as meat, not a fellow tribeman. For the races I made for the Atlantean world (Bard Games, Arcanum trilogy), humans were set at 5pts, all the other races (dwarves, elves, etc.) were at 10pts due to their greater distinctiveness from the more common humans.

 

A couple of general questions:

1. How would you handle Tom Cruise's character from The Last Samurai?

2. How about a black person in 1950s America?

3. How about a person of Middle Eastern descent in modern America?

 

There are a lot of shades of difference (no pun intended), that the exact charts don't allow for. For instance, I have statted out the Atlantean races, but one race, the Aesir are basically mini-giants and no way could pass for humans, though elves at the same cost could be bundled in a cloak and get away with it. It's a matter of degree, and I think being human merits "something", while other races merit even more. You might elect to slide the scale down to the humans coming out at zero, and that's your choice, but what I've posted is why I don't.

[Killer Shrike]

Several points:

 

1) I dont like to vary Packages based on circumstance. If my character has Disadvantage X (in this case DF: Dwarf), which is Disadvantageous in some areas (say, the Orcriech) and not so Disadvantageous or even advantageous in other areas (say Dwurhold) the value of his Disadvantage does not fluctuate as he travels around. Imagine: "Hey guys, sorry but I cant go with you to Dwurhold; I need the extra points Im getting from my DF: Dwarf Disadvantage here in Orcreist and cant afford to buy it off for now". A tad ludicrous, I'm sure most would agree.

 

I dont want to have a multitude of Race Packages for the same Race with differing permutations of Distinctive Features, based upon campaign. Think about it from another standpoint as well. If you dont get the DF bcs you're campaign will theoretically occur in an area where your Race is very common, then by effect your Race Package essentially "costs more", in as much as it has a lower point offset, than if your Race were rare in that area. So its cheaper to play something rare and exotic and more expensive to play something common?.....uh.....ok.

 

Also, how often has a GM started of with a campaign premise in mind ("The campaign will center around the spelunking of a nearby Dwarven Ruin infested with Orc; the assumed base town will be full of humans and displaced Dwarves. Therefore, Humans and Dwarves dont get to take DF, but other races do."), only to have events in play and/or player preferences take the campaign in a completely different direction ("Hey, no fair -- Twiggy the Elf got a DF and my Dwarf didnt, but now that we are stuck in Elfheim Im getting screwed!").

 

Of course there are cases where being a member of Race X is not a Disadvantage, just as there are cases where it will be. There is already a built in way to handle this in the Disadvantage itself, the -5 modifier "Not Distinctive In Some Cultures". Some places you stand out, some you dont, but the Disadvantage stays the same points wise. This is much more consistent mechanically.

 

2) In most fantasy campaigns, there is something out there somewhere that will order their to-kill list preferentially according to your Race. The old Orc-Dwarf or Elf-Dwarf bit. Many creatures specifically have a hate on for a specific Race. Similarly there are cultures where you will be singled out or treated differently based upon your Race for better or for worse, or a mix of both.

 

In most Fantasy campaigns, your Race determines a lot about you in the mind of others -- their perception of the stereotypical characterization of your race will affect your dealings with most people in that culture. This may or may not be a massive hurdle, but its still there and must be worked around. If you are a Halfling for instance, some cultures are going to have no consideration for you perhaps to the point of ignoring you, whereas in others you will be looked upon fondly as "little people" or "child folk", and in still others you'll be regarded as foodstock, and so on.

 

Each culture will react a little differently, and when you act in ways that dont conform to that cultures views there will be friction. Each presents a different roleplaying challenge to the player that a player with a different character type does not encounter in that culture (but may encounter challenges of their own depending on how their Race matches up with the culture they are currently in).

 

 

3) For GMs that feel that looking a certain way isnt really a Disadvantage, all I can say is if having a fixed physiology and general appearance isnt the ideal state, why would the game need a Shapechange power? IMO being fixed in one form poses certain intrinsic downsides when you are in a world where you cant just change your style of dress and get a haircut to blend in.

 

Without DF: Race: "Why cant I infiltrate the settlement of Xylorians?"; "Er, because you are a Oopalator. You look different than they do."; "Really? How would they know? I have no Distinctive Features to single me out."

 

as opposed to

 

With DF: Race: "Why cant I infiltrate the settlement of Xylorians?"; "Infiltrate away. Of course, you look like an Oopalator according to your Disadvantages, so it will be difficult concealing your 3rd and 4th eyes, and of course the extra 2 digits and minus 1 finger on your hands will pose a problem as well."

 

 

4) In many Fantasy settings Race-specific magic exists. A Sword of Elfslaying might be found for instance. Spells might be built with the Limitation "Does not Affect Dwarves", or "Only vs Dwarves". Creatures might have an ability such as "Detect Human" or "Detect Life (Discrimintory)", or even a Susceptibility to Gnomes or something odd like that.

 

But mechanically, how do you know an Elf is an Elf if they lack DF? "Well, they just are", you say? Seems curious in a game system built upon the concept of defining everything in game terms would leave such a basic thing as what the character is undefined. In an all-humans setting its a moot point, but in a setting with 2 or more playable races it becomes an ambiguity.

 

As I treat it, the DF: Race X limitation is, in addition to an appearance descriptor, also a hook for any effect targeted or affected by Race. A character with DF: Hill Dwarf will be affected by things targeting Dwarves in general or Hill Dwarfs in specific, will detect as a Dwarf, can use "Dwarf Only" weapons, and so on. The DF acts as a descriptor and a flag both.

 

 

5) I put the DF in the Race Package Deal itself, and Players are not allowed to tinker with Race Packages in my games. As I dont count the Race Package Disadvantages against a characters "Personal" Disadvantages maximum of 75 points, its a non-issue for me anyway. Those points are more or less phantom points anywa -- it all comes out in the wash.

 

Pretty much all Characters have DF, so no one character is making out compared to others. Some races suffer more discrimination than others in general (like Half Orcs and Half Ogres), so get the "causes reaction" adder, others may be able to conceal themselves more easily via some innate power common to the Race and take the Easily Concealed modifier, so the values of the DF's fluctutate slightly, but all normal characters have them to some degree or another.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Earen

Not as much as they would like something like, "He had a tattoo of an anchor on each forearm." I would say that many people know right off the bat who I'm talking about in that quote. Whereas if I said, "I'm thinking about an elf ... guess which one," I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to figure it out without more clues.

But nevertheless, if you encountered an elf, you would at least know that a) they are an elf and they might be a suspect.

 

Also, having done my time around a number of sailors and Marines I can tell you that its not totally unheard of for many to have very similar tattoos. Walk around San Diego near B Street or cruise around the bars in down town Oceanside and youll see a fair number of people w/ some form of Anchor tattoo and/or Devil Dog, EGA, or simple USMC tats respectively.

 

Also, if you said "officer officer I saw the whole thing! The assailant had a tree tattoed on his chest!, since people can generally wear shirts that piece of information is less than useful unless the assailant is either a) known to the police already or likes to walk around shirtless showing off his tat. Every person is a potential suspect without more information.

 

If on the other hand you said "the assailant was an elf male with a large tattoo of a tree on his chest", the logical search order would be: Find an elf male. Check his chest for a tree tattoo. The one leads to the other. You filter down, not up.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by slaughterj

1. How would you handle Tom Cruise's character from The Last Samurai?

This goes back to my original point though. If having "white men" running around Japan is commonplace, then it is not a Disad. In a world where on the left side of me lives a dwarf and on the right an elf and across the street lives a halfling then it is not uncommon to see them every single day; or at least not any more uncommon that it is for me to see a black person or an asian person.

 

2. How about a black person in 1950s America?

DF: Minority.

 

3. How about a person of Middle Eastern descent in modern America?

I do not make any difference between them an anyone else, any more than I might see a white person and think he is a member of the KKK, or a black person and think they are a member of the Black Panthers, or an asian person and think they are a kung fu expert.

 

My point is that there are 0 point value Disadvantages. Using Distinctive Features: Elf (Concealable, Noticed & Recognized, Not Distinctive in some cultures/areas) is a 0 point Disad which hampers the character in some instances (elf cannot go into anti-elf camp without disguise) but most of the time in a standard fantasy campaign an elf is not going to be denied entrace to Waterdeep, or the Vulgar Unicorn, or any where else.

 

Now in a non-standard fantasy world I would drp the Not Distinguised part of the Disad and make it worth 5 points. In that instance an elf will draw serious stares, and mothers will pull children away from them, etc. Or women might saunter up to them thinking they are long-lasting in every regard.

 

My own PC races will get DF as follows:

• Dwarf: DF: C, N&R, NDISC 5 points.

• Elf: DF: EC, MR, NDISC 5

• Giant: DF: NC, N&R, NDISC 10

• Hafling: DF: EC, N&R, NDISC 0

• Human: DF: EC, N&R, NDISC 0

• Jhyn: DF: EC, MR, NDISC 5