MMM: Are Orcs Stronger Than Humans?

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Monolith

This goes back to my original point though. If having "white men" running around Japan is commonplace, then it is not a Disad. In a world where on the left side of me lives a dwarf and on the right an elf and across the street lives a halfling then it is not uncommon to see them every single day; or at least not any more uncommon that it is for me to see a black person or an asian person.

 

Sure, you and I might see people of all races on a given day, and it likely does not matter. But there are elements of society to which it will matter. If you're a white person alone in minority neighborhood, you may be treated differently than if you were of the minority. If you're a minority, you might be discriminated against in various situations. There's tons of differences that will occur that won't ALWAYS have a reaction, but circumstantially will.

 

Also, I don't necessarily consider race to be easily concealable. There's the external appearance, there's the cultural mannerisms, and there's potentially language and slang barriers. A white guy can't just slap on some blackface paint and blend in with the groupies trying to get backstage to the rap concert. Easily concealable seems more like a uniform which can be taken off, perhaps a tattoo on the arm that a sleeve can cover, etc.

 

Consequently, I can build races as follows:

Any human category (northern barbarian, desert folk, jungle people, etc.): Concealable (10pts), Noticed & Recognizable (0pts), Not in own culture (-5pts): 5pts

Other "minority" races (elves, dwarves, etc.): Not Concealable (15pts), Noticed & Recognizable (0pts), Not in own culture (-5pts): 10pts

 

Now perhaps elves should fall into the Concealable range, but there less concealable than human features, but a touch more N&R, and less of the -5 own race since their race is less common, so I roughly let it go at 10pts.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

In a world where on the left side of me lives a dwarf and on the right an elf and across the street lives a halfling then it is not uncommon to see them every single day; or at least not any more uncommon that it is for me to see a black person or an asian person.

If your setting was primarily populated by such a homogenized utopia of inter-species cohabitation, then certainly DF would matter much less internally for the Races included in the "unitarian hegemony" so to speak.

 

However, I cant think of any fantasy setting off the top of my head where even a minority of the "civilized" aka generally playable races cohabitate in this fashion, or even get along from year to year, decade to decade. While some settings might have a country or two where two or more races manage to cohabitate (such as the Principality of Ulek in Greyhawk where Dwarves rule but humans are involved in most of the commerce and infrastructure), its an exception rather than a rule, and even then there is usually some spectre of disharmony involved at some level.

 

Think of it from another perspective. In every dedicated Fantasy Game out there that allows non-human characters, you must first choose a race for you your character. Being a member of X race carries with it certain abilities, penalties, a physical description, and a very clear categorization as a member of that race. In the HERO System, there is no "race". All characters are collections of pointed abilities. Your Race is completely undefined, and the closest analogue to it in the system is the concept of SFX. Oh, youre quick and live a long time, and look like a pointy eared feeb? Elf SFX.

 

However, characters dont have SFX per se, they have traits which are described as Disadvantages in the HERO System. Not all Disadvantages are strictly disadvantageous in the sense that they hamper a character all the time. Most are just flavor and roleplaying hooks that will come up when it fits the story. Distinctive Features is one such Disadvantage. It provides flavor for the character, and serves as a sensory hook that allows other characters to observe things about that character.

 

It can also serve as a hook for other Powers and abilities and even other Disadvantages to key off of. In this fashion it is like a virtual-SFX for the character themselves. In a supers campaign a character might take DF: Mutant (Detectable Only By Special Senses). When they get hit with the Mutant Suppression device with the Lim Only Vs Mutant Powers, the character is affected by it. Why? Because their DF: Mutant flags them. The DF indicates that the character can be interacted with by things that affect Mutants. Without the DF, how would the Mutant Suppression device affect the character? Minus the DF, what mechanic on their sheet says that they are a mutant? Carry that concept over into Fantasy, and how does it fit in? The same, IMO.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Earen

p211 of FREd ... titled "The Basic Law Of Disadvantages" ... has come in handy many, many times.

 

And there are a range of disadvantages, from not being able to freely mingle with other races as if you were one of their own, to being detectable by Detect Elf, etc. or being affected by Elf Slayer blades (see Killer Shrike on these).

[slaughterj]

Killer Shrike, you've got some really good points in each of your two lengthy threads for why each character in heroic games should have a DF based on their race! From the idea of establishing an sfx, to the detect & slaying powers, to the shapechanger discussion, good stuff!

 

I think there are two issues here:

1. Whether everyone should have a DF based on race

- some are for or against this

2. What the points value should be for the DF, if they should have it

- some agree with having a DF, but have humans come out at 0pts (Monolith?)

 

It's clear I think the DF is for everyone, and I've statted my points above for the races in a given FH campaign, with humans merely getting 5pts, and that also pinpoints the humans to their particular sub-race as well.

[Killer Shrike]

I dont like 0 pt Disadvantage personally. Off the top of my head, I think Humans, Elves, Dwarves, all the mainstream "PC" races come out to -5 points for their DF, where as the semi-monstrous or really unusual races get more in my Race Packages.

 

 

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I dont like 0 pt Disadvantage personally. Off the top of my head, I think Humans, Elves, Dwarves, all the mainstream "PC" races come out to -5 points for their DF, where as the semi-monstrous or really unusual races get more in my Race Packages.

 

I may be a bit generous (see my analysis above), but my humans get 5pt, and all others get 10pt, but arguably elves could get 5pt under mine, I'm not much sweating it

[Killer Shrike]

[Monolith]

I envision a 0 point Disadvantage as working in the same manner as a SFX on a power. A GM might give a player with a sonic EB, for example, a couple of extra dice of damage or a small explosive effect in water and take a couple of extra away in some other situation. The 0 point DF works the same way. It is going to limit the character in some situations (Sorry friend, no elves allowed) and help them in others (only those of elven blood can walk the golden path).

 

Now for me humans also have the 0 point DF. There are white humans who would stand out in certain areas, black humans who stand out in certain areas, arabic humans how stand out in certain areas, asian humans who stand out in certain areas, but over all there is not real limitation in being white, black, arabic, asian, etc. The limitation is just that you attract the attention of some bigotted individuals from another race group from time to time. The advantage is that you have some racial solidarty built in. So to me the different ethnic groups represent a 0 point DF disadvantage.

 

The question I would pose is how does the 5 point DF for dwarves affect them negatively? And how does it affect them positively? The Disad should never have positive effects for a character because it is a Disad. I would like to see some examples as to why humans, and dwarves, and halflings, and gnomes, and whatever other races would react negatively to a elf just from how he looks? Because outside of some potential racial prejudice (which can again be handled with a 0 point DF) I do not see it as being limiting.

 

It's sort of like Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn and Gandalf all going to see the Rohan King. I did not see anyone say: No dwarves, or No Elves, or No Wizards, etc. The characters were just accepted for what they were, and I think that is how it is handled in most fantasy games. To me that represents a 0 point DF.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

The question I would pose is how does the 5 point DF for dwarves affect them negatively? And how does it affect them positively? The Disad should never have positive effects for a character because it is a Disad.

Disdvantages are sometimes advantageous to a character in limited circumstances. For example, if you have a PsyLim that would prevent you from doing something it makes it more difficult to use some Mental Powers on a character. Similarly if you have a PhysLim that prevents you from doing something you cant be Mind Controlled into doing it. If you have Powers built with the limitation "Only While Enraged", then going Enraged is partially beneficial. If you have an alter-ego via Multiform or OIHID or a Power built with a circumstantial trigger defined via an Accidental Change Dis, then Accidental Change can benefit you in some circumstances. If you have a Susceptibility to something, then you also have a defacto detect of that thing -- imprecise as it may be, you know when you are being damaged and generally you know what your character is vulnerable to. If you have a Secret ID, you can sometimes discover things in your normal form that benefit you later on in your suped up form. If you have Dependent NPCs they may have useful abilities, or occassionally get your character involved in things which later turn out to be beneficial. If you have a Hunted and you manage to defeat them several times your character can get a reputation (not the full on Perk, but some positive buzz nonetheless) as a competant superhero and may even get some good free PR from the media. If you character has a Watched, the overlooking organization may step in at some point to protect its interests (depending on what they are watching you for of course). Age raises some Characteristic Maxes. About the only Disadvantages which I can think of off the top of my head which are all bad are Vulnerability and Unluck, which are both mostly hooked into Combat and are more systemic than conceptual, and Dependence for obvious reasons.

 

"Disadvantages" is a pretty poor word to describe the category all things considered (the word should have been used instead of "Limitations" for negative Power mods IMO, as it is a direct opposite from the word "Advantage" used for positive modifiers -- I cant tell you how many newbs Ive seen confused by this). Disadvantages are more than just "bad stuff that happens to you", they are the definition of the characters' personalities, trials, and tribulations. The hurdles that they must overcome, and in so doing be more heroic than just simple piles of numbers totalling up to little more than an over-codified game of cowboys and indians.

 

As far as Dwarves being negatively affected by being Dwarves, here we go: for their -5 points they can expect to make the instant $#!^ list of any member of any number of other Races including "monsters", and even just individual grudgebearers that currently have a mad on for Dwarves in general, to automatically be assumed to be belligerent greedy drunkards most places they go (or whatever the prevailing view is of Dwarves in a given area), to be affected by any magic items or spells or effects designed to target Dwarves, not be able to use any magic item only usable by some other Race, automatically be unable to blend in unnoticed with humanity or most other Races due to sheer physical differences without the aid of magic, and any other minor inconvenience which seems appropriate depending upon events in play.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I would like to see some examples as to why humans, and dwarves, and halflings, and gnomes, and whatever other races would react negatively to a elf just from how he looks? Because outside of some potential racial prejudice (which can again be handled with a 0 point DF) I do not see it as being limiting.

 

And I would like to see some examples why they wouldnt. They are different. When have people ever needed a better reason to distrust and dislike others than that? Barely 40 years past in our own country, one of the more liberal and tolerant in the world in our own time (though still not quite there in all areas of the nation), you couldnt choose your own seat on a bus or eat in most restraunts if your skin had a higher melanin count than some other people's. Same race, same genes, only very very minor physical differences.

 

Assuming some of the basic stereotypes of tree-hugging uber Tolkeinesque elves, now insert practically immortal elf boy, child of a Race possessing vast magical lore, a personal lifespan longer than almost any human empire will ever acheive, aperspective almost alien to the minds of human beings whose entire life spans are shorter than the elves adolescence. Thats not even considering competition for limited resources, such as Humans logging forests for wood, perhaps skirmishing with Elves seeking to preserve their homelands from the depredations of a race of people that to their elder eyes seem to be little more than rapidly reproducing vermin. Have there been no wars in the past where the Elves and mankind conflicted? Why do humans dominate the land rather than the immortal and powerful Elves? If no war occured, was there never a war between humans and some other Race where the Elves did not ally with the Humans when asked, or worse sided with the enemy? Was such a war between two groups of humans and the Elves sided with one side over the other? Is there resentment from some of the humans over this? Did one human nation conquer another thanks to the assistance of their Elvish allies? Do the conquered people now harbor a lingering hatred for the meddlesome Elves? Do humans see them as a source of plunder perhaps? In some settings one Elven corpse is a required ingredient for a Potion of Longevity, dont you know? And Elven made clothing fetches a high price on the black market......

 

And thats just humans. Add in Dwarves and any other "civilized" races, and the pot gets stirred some more. Add in other "monstrous" or antagonistic races, and surely some of them have some axe to grind with the Elves. When given the option of shooting his bow at an Elf, a Human, and a Halfling, which will the average Goblin Skulker going to choose? Do Gobbo's generally hate Elves in that setting? If so, guess where the first arrow is going. Etc etc etc.

 

 

Originally posted by Monolith

It's sort of like Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn and Gandalf all going to see the Rohan King. I did not see anyone say: No dwarves, or No Elves, or No Wizards, etc. The characters were just accepted for what they were, and I think that is how it is handled in most fantasy games. To me that represents a 0 point DF.

What about a -5 point lim would prevent that? They were not concealed and they were noticed and recognized. You note that no one said "Hey, you peasants get back to muckraking!" either -- they were shown in to see the aged and sickly King along with Gandalf, who was not very well regarded in Rohan.

 

Same when they get to Gondor. They arent relegated to the ranks; they get right in to see the Steward whos busy administering a nation in dire risk of collapsing before the forces of the enemy. Their appearance marks them out as special, even though in their own lands (with the exception of Aragorn, who has no land and Gandalf who isnt even truly human of course) they are not particularly remarkable. Pippin IIRC is even thought to be a Prince of his people by the Gondorians, and there was nothing really remarkable about him except that he was a Hobbit of the Shire, where people live in sod houses and farm, and not just some dirtclodded serf from down the road who lived in a sod house and farms (granted, Pippin was a Took, who were the closest thing the Hobbits had to royalty, but there was still a wide margin of difference between that and an actual Prince).

[AnotherSkip]

And Gimli gets in trouble with the elves over his race.

 

If Legolas visited the Dwarven kingdom he would probably have faced some discrimination there too.

 

In Tolkein Dwarves and Elves _Dont_ trust each other in the third age. Having two people who are Supposed to dislike each other _because _ of DF: races isn't a problem is the Game?

 

Then the rules need to be rewritten!

 

 

just because you don't end up going some places doesnt mean it can't be a disadvantage.

 

BTW KS: good post.

 

Much better than I could have said so myself.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

And Gimli gets in trouble with the elves over his race.

 

If Legolas visited the Dwarven kingdom he would probably have faced some discrimination there too.

 

In Tolkein Dwarves and Elves _Dont_ trust each other in the third age. Having two people who are Supposed to dislike each other _because _ of DF: races isn't a problem is the Game?

 

Then the rules need to be rewritten!

By those standards then every black person in the US should have DF: Black 5 points. And every Arabic person should have DF: Arabic 5 points. And every Asian person should have DF: Asian 5 points. I do not think that is the case. DF is not just about racial bigotry, IMO.

 

I am content to do it the way I have done it. I am not trying to force my views on anyone. I am just stating that I understand why it is the way it is in the book. It makes sense to me that in a world full of different races living and working together that most people would not be considered too different based on just race.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

By those standards then every black person in the US should have DF: Black 5 points. And every Arabic person should have DF: Arabic 5 points. And every Asian person should have DF: Asian 5 points. I do not think that is the case.

Im not even going to get into a "Real World" discussion of either DF or Social Limitations. Whose to say that real people do or dont have Distinctive Features as a "race" or not? Real people dont come with character sheets afterall.

 

Lets confine the discussion to fictional characters in fictional settings please.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

DF is not just about racial bigotry, IMO.

 

And I have illustrated several times that I dont think it is either. Not all interaction influenced by an awareness of differences is bigotry for starters. In some cases it is the beginning of reaching an accord, of finding some "safe zone" where interaction is possible without giving unintentional offense.

 

That aside I have also illustrated several instances of how DF can be about more than just social interaction; it provides a basis for other forms of mechanical interaction and helps to hook a character more firmly into a campaign's Magic System.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I am content to do it the way I have done it. I am not trying to force my views on anyone.

 

Same here. Im just covering the topic. Im not saying my way is right or wrong -- its just my way.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

I am just stating that I understand why it is the way it is in the book. It makes sense to me that in a world full of different races living and working together that most people would not be considered too different based on just race.

Im saying that I have never read, heard of, or played in a setting "full of different races living and working together ". All the major fantasy settings that come to my mind are predominantly human (or some other single race), and other Races are an exception, coming from some other place or segment of society.

 

Most typically IME humans rule the majority of the land, Elves or some analogue to them reside and control large bodys of forests, Dwarves or some analogue reside in and control Mountains, and Halflings or some analogue live in some out of the way idyllic corner of insufficient tactical or resource value to interest human occupation. Other intelligent races similarly fill some classifiable niche. Occasionally individuals from various "Races" according to the time-honored adventurer schtick will meet up and do things together, but this is definitely an unusual circumstance and basically a gamism in the larger sense, to allow players to play different races more freely.

 

Your experiences or preferences for a setting of your own devising may be different.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Monolith

I am content to do it the way I have done it. I am not trying to force my views on anyone. I am just stating that I understand why it is the way it is in the book.

 

I think that's what we are all doing. This is an area subject to personal preference more than absolute rules, like the cost of an EB. To me, the 5-10pt lim that one gets from race is fairly innocuous in pt value, and therefore isn't intended to be a tremendous disadvantage in the first place, compared with a 20-25pt psych lim or hunted. Therefore it isn't going to be a big impact, and I think seeing that helps to place it in perspective. Also, the DF is somewhat distinct from any Social Limitation which I think you are focusing on somewhat. E.g.:

 

Originally posted by Monolith

The question I would pose is how does the 5 point DF for dwarves affect them negatively? And how does it affect them positively? The Disad should never have positive effects for a character because it is a Disad. I would like to see some examples as to why humans, and dwarves, and halflings, and gnomes, and whatever other races would react negatively to a elf just from how he looks? Because outside of some potential racial prejudice (which can again be handled with a 0 point DF) I do not see it as being limiting.

 

There are plenty of negative effects. The dwarf can't pass for a human, elf, goblin, etc., and all the effects that go along with that. Whether this is affects social interactions is a separate consideration to some extent (for instance, the black person in 1950s America might have a SL in addition), but perhaps it can be considered to include minor things (e.g., society stereotyping Asian people to be good at math). Perhaps the dwarf should also have a physical limitation as they can't readily use human armor, a human's great sword, etc. , but I feel this goes under the DF category. DF isn't necessarily about a negative reaction, it's about being locked in a category.

 

You mentioned about modern day people's ethnicity. Well there are some people who are clearly of certain racial types, and that provides them with a DF. Other people are less so clear, e.g. The Rock, and that might provide them with an "advantage" because people don't see them as "different". If someone in a campaign didn't want to take a DF for a particular human race, i.e., because they had a very broadly applying appearance (e.g., could be perceived as possibly Middle Eastern, European, or Hispanic), then I'd give that person a 0pt DF, which still shows that they have a bit of DF (still stand out from Asian and African people), but it would be a hell of a lot more useful to be like that and blend into various cultures and groups without suspicion.