Rapid Fire

[badger3k]

Originally posted by zornwil

Good point. You'd have to check standard deviations and such to get really correct about it, but I think Gary's identified it's a potential issue, which is enough for our purposes as GMs and players, ultimately, IMHO.

 

I'd agree that it can be one. Like Hugh, I don't see the potential problem being one that requires any changes to the rules - if there is a problem, the rule IS optional after all. If a player says he wants to use it, I can easily say "No", its optional and I'm not using it. Or Yes, Okay, just remember what's good for the goose, etc. I am interested in knowing some amount of rolls - I'd like to have my players make, say 50 3d6 rolls and send me the results (I have 4 currently until some get back online, so that's 200 rolls, plus 50 for me). Is 250 sufficient - no, can't be - the rolls would be hit and damage, so I'd need more (maybe assume all might hit and go with 4 rolls of 3d6 per set, 50 sets - eek, 200 each. That still won't work - I'd need a potential damage roll per hit roll, so 8 per set time 50 = 400 each. Erk. And if I need more than 250 attempts. Maybe I'm not that bored after all.

 

Maybe we posters could do it once, and we can all post the results for analysis. That is, if anybody has enough time and desire to try something like that. For experimental purposes only.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Gary

Here's the average results for a 26 dex 3 skill level dude with a 4d6 area effect NND in his multipower, rapid firing 4 times:

 

16d6 area effect NND 68% of the time.

12d6 area effect NND 7% of the time.

8d6 area effect NND 8% of the time.

4d6 area effect NND 8% of the time.

0d6 9% of the time.

 

If you want numbers run for other scenarios, let me know.

 

Ok. Thanks for that, but what is it based on? Is it the average from 100 trials? 1000? 10000? If I rolled 100 times, would I expect to see the 16d6 result in 68 of those, or should those results come out over a larger grouping?

 

The other question is what about a character not specifically made for such an attack. Lets say, 26 Dex with no levels, and a normal NND, attacking a fairly common 24 Dex character. With no levels and not dodging? I'd like to see what might happen if a normal character decided to try it (normal as defined by the beginning characters I've used and some fairly typical mook/low level bad guy types). YMMV of course as to what is normal.

[Gary]

Originally posted by badger3k

Ok. Thanks for that, but what is it based on? Is it the average from 100 trials? 1000? 10000? If I rolled 100 times, would I expect to see the 16d6 result in 68 of those, or should those results come out over a larger grouping?

 

That's an exact mathematical probability rounded to the nearest percent. Think of it as infinite trials. It's based on a 12 OCV attacking a DCV 3 hex 4 times, resulting in a final to hit number of 14-

 

Originally posted by badger3k

The other question is what about a character not specifically made for such an attack. Lets say, 26 Dex with no levels, and a normal NND, attacking a fairly common 24 Dex character. With no levels and not dodging? I'd like to see what might happen if a normal character decided to try it (normal as defined by the beginning characters I've used and some fairly typical mook/low level bad guy types). YMMV of course as to what is normal.

 

OCV 9 vs DCV 8 means 12- base to hit. Let's assume 6d6 NND, a very common attack.

 

Without rapid fire, the optimal result is spread for +1 OCV, resulting in 5.5d6 NND and 13- base attack. The average stun is 16.3.

 

With rapid fire 2 shots, it's counterproductive unless you spread. The optimal result is to spread for +3 OCV and rapid fire 2 shots. That's a final 4.5d6 NND at 13- to hit. The average stun inflicted is 24.6

 

Rapid fire 3 shots is optimal if you spread for +5 OCV. That results in a final 3.5d6 NND and 13- to hit. The average stun inflicted is 26.6.

[Caveman]

Also, please remember that the 23 points(as quoted) are straight with no limitations on them, nor are they bought through an MP. Where rapid fire really get's a boost is from unsuspecting gm's that don't take into consideration of the affect of combining powers with skills(specifically ones designed to benefit specific powers or maneuvers).

 

Originally posted by Gary

Stop right there. You forget that autofire NND is an additional +1 advantage. A 2-3 shot autofire nnd is a +2.25 advantage, so you'll only get 3d6. (Technically you pay only 49 pts for the 3d6 NND).

 

 

 

Running your numbers again with 3d6 NND means reducing the damage by 25%. That brings them to parity right there. And the autofire is paying 15 end vs 9 for the 3 shotter.

 

Let's 0 end both powers so we can compare apples to apples. It costs the autofire guy a +1 advantage to 0 end his, or 15 pts.

 

Accepting your value of 23 pts for rapid fire, and adding in the 15 pts that it's costing autofire dude to get 0 end, leaves 41 pts, or 3d6 NND 0 end with 4 pts left over.

 

Taking your previous numbers, the autofire NND averages 25.03*(10.5/14) = 18.8 stun. The rapid fire averages 19.2*(10.5/9) = 22.4 stun.

 

The rapid fire now averages 19% more stun, and costs 4 pts less than the autofire attack.

 

See what happens when you use correct costs and equalize for end?

 

However, that analysis is for a 50 pt attack. As the attack goes up, the rapid fire is going to do better and better compared to the NND. That's because the 23 pts is a "fixed" cost and adding dice is a "percentage" cost.

 

 

 

 

Please check the revised numbers.

[Farkling]

I allow Rapid Fire...i have not seen a problem.

 

The user is absolutely paranoid about having a DCV "lower than Cory's!"

He doesn't have the defenses to take the hits with the style she has.

 

Cory has used sweep attacks on armored doors, a building, and a rogue bolo unit with little disruption of the plotline, though she DID smash the tank up faster than expected...such is the nature of the big dumb slow moving monster when attacking a hero base.

 

I don't think Wheels has the END to rapid fire his EGO attack...and I am not going to suggest it to him until it is dramatically appropriate. He has a telekinetic attack for dealing with mooks.

 

I must have a bad copy of FRED...I see multiple references HERE to 4 or 5 shots with Rapid Fire...and my FRED prohibits Rapid Fire of more than 2 or 3 shots.

 

5 pts bordering on the realm of a naked Autofire advantage...hmmm.

Does Autofire incur the 1/2 DCV penalty? If not, then I'd say Rapid Fire is in line with Autofire in cost.

 

Then again, I see mention of a 4d6 NND, AE attack. That's a 60 AP attack that I could see Rapid Fire unbalanced for, however, not fired on charges, it costs a whopping 18 END per stunt. Impressive. Do that more than twice with no ill effects on your continued combat capabilities.

 

"Hey guys? They're still moving. I need to lie down, I can't shoot anymore. Somebody cover me."

[Gary]

First of all, it's dirt cheap to add reduced end on the 4d6 area effect NND. Second of all, how many times do you need to rapid fire that sucker? I don't see too many foes able to handle 12d6 straight damage in one shot...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

I allow Rapid Fire...i have not seen a problem.

 

Thank you. I know you run a longstanding balanced campaign, and it's good to hear from someone who has seen the rules in use. Your experience matches my gut feel, by the way, and I think my players would see it the same way.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

I must have a bad copy of FRED...I see multiple references HERE to 4 or 5 shots with Rapid Fire...and my FRED prohibits Rapid Fire of more than 2 or 3 shots.

 

This seems a comon problem on these "balanced/unbalanced" threads. I think (and you'll correct me if I am in error) that FREd does not outright prohibit firing more than 2-3 shots. However, I believe it cautions that such a limit would be appropriate and should not be exceeded without GM permission. I take "requires GM permission" to mean "by default this is not permitted", which would mean it is against the rules. However, it is one step lower than the book actually stating "the rule is that you can fire no morethan three shots in a rapid fire attack".

 

Originally posted by Farkling

5 pts bordering on the realm of a naked Autofire advantage...hmmm.

Does Autofire incur the 1/2 DCV penalty? If not, then I'd say Rapid Fire is in line with Autofire in cost.

 

The only way around the DCV penalty, in my view, is levels iwth DCV "only usable with rapid fire". Assuming an 8 CV (pretty common in a Supers campaign), that's probably 27 points (+8 DCV, only when Rapid Firing, so my DCV = 8 + 8 = 16 x 1/2 = 8 - +1/2 because you won't buy it if you don't plan on using it pretty regularly). Add 5 (is it 5 or 10?) for the Rapid Attack skill to get this down to 1/2 phase, and it costs 32 points. Seems to me Autofire would have been a lot cheaper.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Then again, I see mention of a 4d6 NND, AE attack. That's a 60 AP attack that I could see Rapid Fire unbalanced for, however, not fired on charges, it costs a whopping 18 END per stunt. Impressive. Do that more than twice with no ill effects on your continued combat capabilities.

 

"Hey guys? They're still moving. I need to lie down, I can't shoot anymore. Somebody cover me."

 

I also challenge how often one can capture all the opposition, and no bystanders or teammates, in the area of effect. But I would admit that 18 END isn't that big a deal, especially if you can fire it off on Segment 12 (start of combat) then take an immediate recovery.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

First of all, it's dirt cheap to add reduced end on the 4d6 area effect NND.

 

It seems all these threads eventually come down to a problem with advantage stacking being as much, or more, the real concern. Yet we never discuss how to fixz the advantage stacking issue.

 

To me, reduced END should be looked at pretty close - it's about the play balance. "Your character can fire off huge attacks which pretty much always hit all day without tiring. Show me the offsetting weaknesses in other areas which would persuade me that this character is balanced."

[tesuji]

Way back when HEROgames guys were soliciting requests for "what needs to be done in making hero5 from hero4" i suggested a "synergy surcharge."

 

Basically, most of th obvious balance issues i saw coming into actual play cam from what I call "super-baby powers"... where a small active point power, usually no higher than 15 ap and somethines as low as 10 or even 5, is ladened down with +4 or maybe +5 or higher worth of advantages and the cumulative effect of those advantages makes up something more powerful than the sum of its parts.

 

My suggestion was that a synergy surcharge be added to all powers with more than 1 advantage.

 

The surcharge is an additional advantage worth 1 less.

 

So, as an exampleif you build an AOE +1 NND+1 0 END+1/2 (net +2.5 in advanages) your surcharge would be (2.5-1 or +1.5) so th net total advantage you would be charged for NND AOE 0END would be +4 (base +2.5 with +1.5 synergy surcharge.)

 

So a 3d6 NND AOE 0 END attack wieghs in at 75 ap not 52 ap if you apply the surcharge.

 

Now, would there be on occasion multi-advantage high value advantaged powers where the synergy surcharge might make them overpriced? Sure, just like right now you can get some underpriced ones. The catch is, its a lot easier for the Gm to say "hey, let me reduce that cost for you" than it is to say "that is done right but its too good" IMX.

 

Let the game mechanics err on the side of overcharging and let the GM be the "good guy" who gives the player a break, instead of making him be the bad guy all the time.

[Farkling]

I'm with Hugh...the problem may be advatage stacking the powerful advantages. I'll have to ponder on that when I see it in play.

 

First of all, it's dirt cheap to add reduced end on the 4d6 area effect NND. Second of all, how many times do you need to rapid fire that sucker? I don't see too many foes able to handle 12d6 straight damage in one shot...

 

Let's see from my PC sheets here::

 

You dropped 12d6 if NND on the group. Let's see, that's about 42 STUN. Okay...your NND has no listed "reasonably vcommon defense", it's a magic smoke cloud that hits everyone.

 

Hmm. The weather witch is comatose and falling. The cyborg is almost out, and dazed (CON stun)...he was barely saved by his damage reduction. His life support and esoteric defenses did not stop your magic cloud though. You missed Wheels entirely, he is NEVER that close to a combat grouping. Josh "Plasma Kid" has gone down, and will be staggering back to his feet when the next round of Rapid Attacks is fired. Cory is just mad. She isn't even stunned (her CON is 50).

 

Cory hasn't moved yet...she's the slowest super in the game. She leaps over to NNDboy and attempts her calssic "grab and squash" him (even with her psych limits tripped she won't throw a ranged combatant away, she learned that the hard way!). Wheels is radioing UNTIL for fire support, what with all those unconscious bodies littering the area.

OCV 6, +2 with grabs or punches = OCV 8. I assume NND is in the neighborhood of 1/2 8 DCV = 4 DCV. So, she likely gets him, and squishes him for 18d6 of damage. NNDboy takes 63 STUN and 18 BODY against his defesnes.

NNDboy makes his contortionist roll, and successfully rapid fires his NND at Cory while grabbed. NNDboy takes no damge because he came froma min-max game, and has been built including the defense for his magic cloud. Cory goes down. Plasma boy staggers to his feet, and fires an attack burst from his END battery. He misses both NNDboy and Cory, incinerating a small car. Thankfully...his attack could actually have hurt her. It might have incinerated NNDboy. The GM rules that the car does not exsplode for more than a couople dice, what with the gas shortage and all. Plasma Kid should've used his one-Hex AE.

 

The cyborg leapt into the air on his hydraulic jacks to catch the weather witch, and they will both crash out of control because of the magic NND smoke. As his last conscious act, he ensures they impact and skid on his armor.

 

Wheels made his PER roll to detect NNDboy inside that smoke cloud (Detect Minds, Range, DIsc, Analyze, TARGETTING), and fires an Ego attack at him. Wheels can't hit Cory by mistake, he's very familiar with her mind. Wheel's auto-hits (he'd miss on 18, OECV 13 - DECV 2). I'm applying the 1/2 DCV rapid fire rule to the ECV and DCV simultaneously in my games. That's a 6d6 hit for 21 STUN. I rate NNDboy as unconscious. Wheels will ensure he stays that way with Mind Control or Mental Illusions and/or Tlepathy. He has the full rack. He will also use Mind Contorl to prevent Cory from killing NNDboy until her rage passes. Hopefully, they keep an eye on Plasma, he's ex-military and has a decidedly Wolverine attitude towards deadly foes.

 

Commentary:: Knowing my gaming group, and the effects of rapid firing AE attacks, I'd probably have to allow for Dive fro Cover to be used between bursts. Dramatically speaking, it'd be great. The cloaked figure throws an object that explodes covering an area 7" in diameter, it engulfs all of you. The second is already in the air and headed toiwards you.

Player:: "To hell with that, I make a full move, straight up"

GM: "DEX roll please, you'll be hit by the firstone regardless"

Player:: "That's fine. I just don't want the whole Autofire attack to hit me."

Cory:: "Pah! I'm invulnerable. I go rip his head off after the blast"

[Gary]

Farkling, the fact that one single dude with an area effect nnd could mess up half your party in one shot, shows the abusiveness of the construct. And remember, the NND dude probably has 3-4 buddies around to deal with the survivors and/or to protect him. And heaven forbid that any of the 3-4 buddies does the same rapid fire trick...

 

For targetting purposes, the NND dude has several options.

 

1) Throw the NND behind your party at enough distance where it'll miss his own party.

 

2) Throw the NND in the air slightly behind your party for the same effect.

 

3) Perhaps the NND was purchased as Area Effect Cone or Any Area instead. That would simplify targetting greatly.

 

As for advantage stacking, one possible fix might be to make advantages multiplicative instead of additive (as long as they are different advantages). Thus area effect nnds would cost (1+1)*(1+1) or 4 times the base cost of the attack, instead of 3 times the base cost as under the current system.

[tesuji]

"The cyborg is almost out, and dazed (CON stun)..."

 

remember, this is not one 12d6 nnd attack but three smaller 4d6 nnd attacks. They wont combine to con stun.

[tesuji]

BTW, along the lines of "its not rapid fire, its the power build" arguments... way back in fourth the thumpers of AOE NND AF with enough area that the NND overlaps were well known as abusive in practice (the +1 doesn't help hardly any). i think you can even find in print reference to them in some of the Dark Champions stuff as "too efficient."

 

That was way before rapid fire was added.

 

Thats probably why all the "the autofire AOEs that miss go poof" (and so on for blaze away and so on) rules are there and in the faq even though they make no sense from an in game perspective.

 

Since the dark ages, HERo has never been balanced without a Gm saying "no" to powers he did not think were appropriate for his game. The points don't make it so, they did not then and they wont now.

 

Its not rapid fire being evidenced here, at least certainly not since gary latched onto the NND area old school abuse. Its how truely little the points work for balance.

[tesuji]

"As for advantage stacking, one possible fix might be to make advantages multiplicative instead of additive (as long as they are different advantages). Thus area effect nnds would cost (1+1)*(1+1) or 4 times the base cost of the attack, instead of 3 times the base cost as under the current system."

 

so a 3d6 nnd aoe would cost 60?

 

looking up a post to the synergy surcharge...

 

NND+1 and aoe+1 gets a surcharge of +1 for a net cost of +3... so a 3d6 NND AOE would cost 60 pts?

 

Hmmm... thats like, agreement...

 

somethings gotta be wrong.

[Gary]

Originally posted by tesuji

Its not rapid fire being evidenced here, at least certainly not since gary latched onto the NND area old school abuse. Its how truely little the points work for balance.

 

It's not just area effect NNDs. It's any nonstandard attacks such as ego blast and regular NNDs that are abusive as well. The area effect allows one guy to wreck a team. The ego blast and regular NNDs allow the guy to wreck one target.

 

And yes I agree that raw points by themselves don't indicate balance.

[Gary]

Originally posted by tesuji

Hmmm... thats like, agreement...

 

somethings gotta be wrong.

 

Well statistically speaking, it had to happen sometime.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

I'm with Hugh...the problem may be advatage stacking the powerful advantages. I'll have to ponder on that when I see it in play.

 

If Farkling and I agree, it MUST be true!

 

Great example using a real group of characters. I have minor comments.

 

First, you give NND boy evrey advantage , which for purposes of illustration seems reasonable. These include:

 

- no one immune to his NND - I've yet to se an NND everyone in my game was affected by in practice.

 

- the escaping a 90 STR (I assume from the damage) Grab

 

- knowing Cory is still conscious due to massive STUN and CON, and not assuming she has the NND defense, and switching attacks

 

- assuming Plasma Boy selects the wrong attack and misses with it

 

- merging the three attacks for CON stunning (already pointed out above)

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Cory hasn't moved yet...she's the slowest super in the game.

 

Well, in GaryLand, NNDBoy would move at DEX 0.000001 so he can abort immediately to avoid the DCV penalty. While that may impact Cory, it would presumably work to the advantage of other characters - for example, those who choose to attack NND Lad rather than delaying.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Wheels made his PER roll to detect NNDboy inside that smoke cloud (Detect Minds, Range, DIsc, Analyze, TARGETTING), and fires an Ego attack at him.

 

This assumes Wheels isn't a "sauce for the goose" type of guy. If he rapid fires that Ego Attack...

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Commentary:: Knowing my gaming group, and the effects of rapid firing AE attacks, I'd probably have to allow for Dive fro Cover to be used between bursts.

 

That seems quite reasonable to me - the characters had the opportunity to perceive the burst, so there's no reason they can't abort now that they know an area effect NND is at issue.

 

Finally, we come to the "second encounter". If the characters know NNDBoy will be there, they won't come in clustered. They have probably used their contacts with various agencies to research the defense to the NND, and may be equipped with gizmos (or tactics - gas works poorly against a Brick holding his breath) to nullify it. At the least, they are ready to dive for cover at the first shot. Magic smoke? Perhaps the Weather Witch can use wind powers to deflect or dissipate it, possibly with use of the Power skill.

 

Maybe NNDBoy still gets one or two of them, but they'll be making it pretty tough to strike more than one at a time (and my recollection is that only one of the characters described is restricted to HTH combat).

 

And if NND Boy always holds to 1, a coordinated attack at Cory's Dex will likely see his phase used to recover from being Stunned...

 

Does NND Boy have allies? Probably - but we all know that, when there's one villain the whole team is vulnerable to, you focus on neutralizing him immediately. A group with no egoist will target the egoist first - they have to!

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Farkling, the fact that one single dude with an area effect nnd could mess up half your party in one shot, shows the abusiveness of the construct.

 

Lots of attacks can mess up lots of targets. Going back to Farkling's example, the Weather Witch is out and Plasma Boy is just KO'd. Cyborg, Cory and Wheels all have phases. And they also get PS 12 recoveries - Cory will recover at least 2/3 of her lost STun based on the stats given unless she sold REC back.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And remember, the NND dude probably has 3-4 buddies around to deal with the survivors and/or to protect him. And heaven forbid that any of the 3-4 buddies does the same rapid fire trick...

 

Farkling's example assumes the NND trick is not common. If it is, consider Wheels' Ego Attack and Plasma Boy's 1 hex area attack. The Cyborg likely has a good attack for rapid fire too, especially if an opponent is at 1/2 DCV. [i assume a Sweep from Cory is out of the question...]

 

Originally posted by Gary

For targetting purposes, the NND dude has several options.

 

1) Throw the NND behind your party at enough distance where it'll miss his own party.

 

2) Throw the NND in the air slightly behind your party for the same effect.

 

3) Perhaps the NND was purchased as Area Effect Cone or Any Area instead. That would simplify targetting greatly.

 

1/2. This means they must be even closer clustered for the attack to have full effect.

 

3. It would also reduce the hexes, again meaning they must be clustered closer together. Especially "Any Area" - what's that 1 hex per 10 points in the power?

 

4. After one attack sequence, the opponents close, making most Area Effects dangerous to allies as well as adversaries.

 

5. Detect Minds Targetting + Mental Illusions/Mind Control...Farkling, do any characters besides Wheels even need to throw a punch here? An Illusion placing characters elsewhere means NND Noy misses, but an illusion superimposing them over NND Lad's Legion of Super Allies, or a Mind Control lets NND Lad wipe out his own group.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Lots of attacks can mess up lots of targets. Going back to Farkling's example, the Weather Witch is out and Plasma Boy is just KO'd. Cyborg, Cory and Wheels all have phases. And they also get PS 12 recoveries - Cory will recover at least 2/3 of her lost STun based on the stats given unless she sold REC back.

 

How many 60 pt attacks that are routinely allowed by most GMs have the capability to take out half the enemy team in one shot?

 

2 out of 5 out of the fight, Cyborg is badly hurt, and Cory has taken some damage.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Farkling's example assumes the NND trick is not common. If it is, consider Wheels' Ego Attack and Plasma Boy's 1 hex area attack. The Cyborg likely has a good attack for rapid fire too, especially if an opponent is at 1/2 DCV. [i assume a Sweep from Cory is out of the question...]

 

And then fights would degenerate into whomever is last able to throw out a sweep/rapid fire. IMO, that's an undesirable state of affairs. Wheels with a high Ego can easily take out one foe per phase reliably. 3 Hits with 6d6 Ego Blast is pretty devastating to anyone without lots of mental defense.

 

Of course Farkling's group is still at a major disadvantage, with 1 full strength member, 1 badly damaged member, and 1 pissed off brick vs 5 likely near full str foes.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

1/2. This means they must be even closer clustered for the attack to have full effect.

 

4" radius means 7" diameter, or about 45 feet. I don't see most superteams standing more than 45 feet away from each other on a routine basis. Being that spread out is a tactic designed for the rematch, and only if they were expecting to meet this team.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

3. It would also reduce the hexes, again meaning they must be clustered closer together. Especially "Any Area" - what's that 1 hex per 10 points in the power?

 

The Cone is 9" long and wide. It covers a lot of area. The party would have to be pretty well dispersed to not be caught by it. And the any area slot is for close in fighting when he doesn't want to hit his teammates.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

4. After one attack sequence, the opponents close, making most Area Effects dangerous to allies as well as adversaries.

 

Yeah, but that one attack sequence has taken out or badly damaged most of the opposing group already.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

5. Detect Minds Targetting + Mental Illusions/Mind Control...Farkling, do any characters besides Wheels even need to throw a punch here? An Illusion placing characters elsewhere means NND Noy misses, but an illusion superimposing them over NND Lad's Legion of Super Allies, or a Mind Control lets NND Lad wipe out his own group.

 

Well technically, Wheels only needs to stand in a building 1/2 mile away to take out most groups by themselves. He could take out all 4 of his teammates using this tactic by himself. But someone this dangerous would be dogpiled by NND Boy's 4 teammates in the same way that NND boy would be dogpiled by Farkling's team's survivors.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

If Farkling and I agree, it MUST be true!

 

Great example using a real group of characters. I have minor comments.

 

First, you give NND boy evrey advantage , which for purposes of illustration seems reasonable. These include:

 

- no one immune to his NND - I've yet to se an NND everyone in my game was affected by in practice.

 

- the escaping a 90 STR (I assume from the damage) Grab

 

- knowing Cory is still conscious due to massive STUN and CON, and not assuming she has the NND defense, and switching attacks

 

- assuming Plasma Boy selects the wrong attack and misses with it

 

- merging the three attacks for CON stunning (already pointed out above)

 

I don't see anything wrong with Farkling's example either. The only quibble I have is that his example had NND boy by himself. Either NND boy has teammates, or NND boy is built on lots more points which means higher CV/Defenses and probably a 6d6 area effect NND instead. 18d6 straight damage would mean only Wheels and a badly weakened Cory left after the first attack.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Well, in GaryLand, NNDBoy would move at DEX 0.000001 so he can abort immediately to avoid the DCV penalty. While that may impact Cory, it would presumably work to the advantage of other characters - for example, those who choose to attack NND Lad rather than delaying.

 

Or NND boy has a MA teammate who holds his action and Blocks or Throws Cory as she arrives. Or a teammate that throws Force Walls. Or a teammate with any number of defensive tricks.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This assumes Wheels isn't a "sauce for the goose" type of guy. If he rapid fires that Ego Attack...

 

He'll take out one foe per phase reliably except perhaps the other team's mentallist. Rapid Fire Ego blasts are certainly devastating. It's what I've been arguing the whole thread.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

That seems quite reasonable to me - the characters had the opportunity to perceive the burst, so there's no reason they can't abort now that they know an area effect NND is at issue.

 

It seems very reasonable to me as well. However, it leaves the people who abort vulnerable to the teammates.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Finally, we come to the "second encounter". If the characters know NNDBoy will be there, they won't come in clustered. They have probably used their contacts with various agencies to research the defense to the NND, and may be equipped with gizmos (or tactics - gas works poorly against a Brick holding his breath) to nullify it. At the least, they are ready to dive for cover at the first shot. Magic smoke? Perhaps the Weather Witch can use wind powers to deflect or dissipate it, possibly with use of the Power skill.

 

Maybe NNDBoy still gets one or two of them, but they'll be making it pretty tough to strike more than one at a time (and my recollection is that only one of the characters described is restricted to HTH combat).

 

And if NND Boy always holds to 1, a coordinated attack at Cory's Dex will likely see his phase used to recover from being Stunned...

 

Does NND Boy have allies? Probably - but we all know that, when there's one villain the whole team is vulnerable to, you focus on neutralizing him immediately. A group with no egoist will target the egoist first - they have to!

 

The rematch would make for an interesting story. But remember, if Rapid Fire isn't a common trick and NND boy is one of the very few with GM permission, his team would have designed tactics to allow him to utilize his powers and protect him at the same time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

How many 60 pt attacks that are routinely allowed by most GMs have the capability to take out half the enemy team in one shot?

 

Of 5, one member down for the count, a second just barely down, and a third injured. Whether that's "half out of the fight" is open to interpretation. I would also expect a balanced 5 man supergroup to have at least one member with that NND's "reasonably common defense". Based on Farkling's ppost, I suspect that would be the cyborg. And I've already noted that I would be inclined to set limits on the area effect NND rapid fired such as overlapping spaces take damage only once.

 

The problem is not Rapid Fire. It is not even Rapid Fire coupled with NND. It is a Rapid Fire attack with no defense which affects an area and costs no END. Would I allow that? No. But then, I look at area effects and NND's fairly close.

 

 

Originally posted by Gary

And then fights would degenerate into whomever is last able to throw out a sweep/rapid fire. IMO, that's an undesirable state of affairs. Wheels with a high Ego can easily take out one foe per phase reliably. 3 Hits with 6d6 Ego Blast is pretty devastating to anyone without lots of mental defense.

 

And yet this IS NOT HAPPENING in real games. Why is that?

 

Originally posted by Gary

4" radius means 7" diameter, or about 45 feet. I don't see most superteams standing more than 45 feet away from each other on a routine basis. Being that spread out is a tactic designed for the rematch, and only if they were expecting to meet this team.

 

But now you aren't firing the attack a few hexes behind them to avoid catching your own teammates, are you?

 

Originally posted by Gary

The Cone is 9" long and wide. It covers a lot of area. The party would have to be pretty well dispersed to not be caught by it. And the any area slot is for close in fighting when he doesn't want to hit his teammates.

 

Now I have to allow a character with at least two different NND Area Effects for this to be viable. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen! And the 9" cone is 9" wide only at its furthest extreme.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, but that one attack sequence has taken out or badly damaged most of the opposing group already.

 

Provided you get the drop on them and they are arrayed as you wish them to be. Many players vastly prefer to approach an area from two sides (sending faster movers aroound to flank) rather than all come in as one big cluster.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Well technically, Wheels only needs to stand in a building 1/2 mile away to take out most groups by themselves. He could take out all 4 of his teammates using this tactic by himself. But someone this dangerous would be dogpiled by NND Boy's 4 teammates in the same way that NND boy would be dogpiled by Farkling's team's survivors.

 

Farkling can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm guessing "detect minds" was used to replace "mind scan" so there would be a range modifier. And you can't dogpile him if you can't see him. He wins - and he can save 20% on his mental powers by buying them "cannot rapid fire"! He's got time.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Of 5, one member down for the count, a second just barely down, and a third injured. Whether that's "half out of the fight" is open to interpretation. I would also expect a balanced 5 man supergroup to have at least one member with that NND's "reasonably common defense". Based on Farkling's ppost, I suspect that would be the cyborg. And I've already noted that I would be inclined to set limits on the area effect NND rapid fired such as overlapping spaces take damage only once.

 

Yeah 1 member out, 1 in single digit Stun and End after segment 12 recovery, the Cyborg maybe is immune but maybe is down 30 or so stun after segment 12 recovery, and the brick down 15-20 stun after recovery. Sounds pretty devastating to me.

 

The most common NND's IME have the following as the defense:

 

1) Life Support self contained breathing

2) Force Fields

3) Sonic Flash Defense or hard ear coverings

4) Various Life Supports such as Heat or Cold or High Radiation (This doesn't seem common enough, but CKC has a character with this as the defense)

5) Power Defense

6) Lack of Weakness or Density Increase

7) Hardened Defenses

 

I'd say that it's 50/50 whether a team of 5 would have someone with the defense to the NND.

 

If you set limits to Rapid Fire Area Effect NND's, that simply proves my point that you think the maneuver is unbalancing.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The problem is not Rapid Fire. It is not even Rapid Fire coupled with NND. It is a Rapid Fire attack with no defense which affects an area and costs no END. Would I allow that? No. But then, I look at area effects and NND's fairly close.

 

The End cost is mostly irrelevant for this discussion. The triple tap doesn't need to be fired more than once or twice.

 

The area effect merely allows one person to wreck a team. A straight NND or Ego blast allows the person to wreck one target at a time.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

And yet this IS NOT HAPPENING in real games. Why is that?

 

What is to stop Wheels from Rapid Firing his Ego Blast? According to Farkling, he has 13 OECV with 6d6 Ego Blast. That should be an easy 3 hits vs most foes. And most foes can't survive 18d6 of damage.

 

I asked two GMs in my area. They both said that they would categorically ban Rapid Fire with nonstandard attacks such as the 4d6 area effect nnd or the ego blast. So at least a couple of "real games" deal with the problem by outright banning the maneuver.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But now you aren't firing the attack a few hexes behind them to avoid catching your own teammates, are you?

 

If the party is so spread out that all of them are more than 45 feet away from each other, then the area effect nnd won't be effective. However, I reiterate that this is not a common situation.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Now I have to allow a character with at least two different NND Area Effects for this to be viable. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen! And the 9" cone is 9" wide only at its furthest extreme.

 

And yet I suspect that without Rapid Fire, permission would have been granted as a matter of course. After all, one single 4d6 area effect nnd isn't that devastating. It's the triple tap that makes it so.

 

The 9" cone should be able to get most parties. It covers a total of 45 hexes, and is almost 60 feet wide at its furthest extreme. Very few parties are spread out that much, except for people like Wheels who makes it a point not to be near the rest of the party.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Provided you get the drop on them and they are arrayed as you wish them to be. Many players vastly prefer to approach an area from two sides (sending faster movers aroound to flank) rather than all come in as one big cluster.

 

That would merely mean that only half the party gets zapped by 42 straight stun. Not bad for a single 60 pt attack. In fact, hitting one single target for 42 straight stun is pretty impressive for a 60 pt power. Hitting 2-3 targets is outright horrendous.

 

And of course there is the chance that NND boy did get the drop on the party.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Farkling can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I'm guessing "detect minds" was used to replace "mind scan" so there would be a range modifier. And you can't dogpile him if you can't see him. He wins - and he can save 20% on his mental powers by buying them "cannot rapid fire"! He's got time.

 

What you're describing is what I call the "Mentallist with N-Ray vision and Tunnelling" Syndrome. The Mentallist stays in a nice safe place and snipes away at leisure. It's a tactic that most GMs wouldn't allow. And if it were allowed, then the other 4 members of the party would be superfulous. The mentallist would simply win all battles by himself, except in the odd case where a foe has 25+ pts of mental defense.

 

Assuming like in most campaigns, that the Mentallist would be somewhere in the vicinity of the battle, he is vulnerable to dogpiling.

[Farkling]

Qualify from real characters

 

just to add commentary and fan the flames::

 

Wheels is in the area, just not easily accessible. He is within a 40" Teleport range, and under cover or invisible (until attack).

 

Wheels can rapid fire his Ego Attack twice (four attacks total) before having serious STUN issues. If NNDboy survived "Cory squash" with little percieved impact, he likely attempts Illusions or Mind Control instead of the Ego Attack, and follows up with the other. Actually though, Hob will think of a solution that is NOT listed here. He usually does.

 

Wheels has Detect Minds because Mind Scan does not allow for the Cerebro effect of "how many active minds are in that building?". Mind Scan is designed for "where is Target Alpha??"

 

As to the list of defenses::

The most common NND's IME have the following as the defense:

1) Life Support self contained breathing

Cyborg has it, "must breathe once per hour". Cory (currently) has a short term version costing 1 END per phase. She'd activate it on her first action following the "choking smothering" if she thought of it.

2) Force Fields

Wheels has a TK force field built into his wheelchair, based on a psi-amplifier adapted by Josh and the Cyborg. No other force fields. Josh hasn't figured out how to maintain one yet.

3) Sonic Flash Defense or hard ear coverings

The Cyborg has this one. so does Josh going by Plasma Kid's costume description.

4) Various Life Supports such as Heat or Cold or High Radiation

Josh is immune to radiation. The Witch to Heat and Cold. Cory is currently immune to Cold, but that will change at next game.

5) Power Defense

The group has had a few run-ins with GENOCIDE homebrew. Cyborg, Wheels (chair), Witch, and Cory all have Power Defense. Cory and Wheels only works against mutant power suppressors. Josh's mutant plasma powers burnt up his focus for Power Defense.

6) Lack of Weakness or Density Increase

Cyborg has Lack of Weakness

7) Hardened Defenses

Cory (partial), Josh (partial, must percieve attack), Cyborg (full).

 

And as a conclusive footnote: The Cyborg has telescopic vision, and a no range mods railgun. Admittedly, it only does 8d6 damage, but he can fire it from a REALLY long way off. (200-300", depending on GM). If he wasn't dazed by the initial assault, he caught the Witch in the air, and kept moving. Cory is tougher than him, he likes the witch a lot, and Josh is an old soldier also, knowing when to retreat. When the Witch wakes up, there will be a lot of wind or rain or fog in the area, depending on the NND.. PS; If sombody shoots you from out of PER range...does it count as surprise?

 

The Cyborg, Josh. and Wheels all carry radios. Wheels has Telepathy and Mind Link, And Cory sometimes has a radio. They will turn to geurilla tactics. They used them against GENOCIDE very well.

 

As to the nature of Cory's "sometimes" effects, she knows a genius, who has her field test stuff for him. Think about that maniac in the middle of the desert in Mystery Men. She even calls him Tom Waits. Cory has a small (20 pt) Variable Power Pool, which uses her contact roll as a the Control Roll. If she wants something special, she phones him, and he ships it to her FedEx or by suborbital messenger rocket (depending on payload requirement). She would definitely be better prepared for NNDboy the second time around.

[Farkling]

Actually, if the Cyborg gets the Witch out of the area, she's likely to return fire with her own AOE NND, while the cyborg overcharges his railgun attack. Any knockback will mess up NNDboy's Rapid Fire capabilities. her NND is an arctic Blizzard effect, Cold, appropriate arctic/cold weather gear and inherent cold powers will counteract the NND damage.

 

I completely forgot about that. She would definitely be in the first blast radius if NNDboy had the GENOCIDE copies of her power suite. They are the only ones to have seen her flash freeze an area.

 

I find it interesting that the majority of the "it's broken" threads all come back to the abuses that the specific power causes when coupled with NND attacks. And yes, I count Transform in the NND attack pile. It bypasses much of normal defense abilities.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah 1 member out, 1 in single digit Stun and End after segment 12 recovery, the Cyborg maybe is immune but maybe is down 30 or so stun after segment 12 recovery, and the brick down 15-20 stun after recovery. Sounds pretty devastating to me.

 

It's a pretty devestating 1 shot attack - no denying that. But the character becomes a one hit wonder. He's now at 1/2 DCV and down significant END. The rest of the group is now focused on him as their primary target - a second shot is, at best, unlikely. And based on Farkling's comments, the cyborg should be considered immune.

 

Originally posted by Gary

The most common NND's IME have the following as the defense:

 

1) Life Support self contained breathing

2) Force Fields

3) Sonic Flash Defense or hard ear coverings

4) Various Life Supports such as Heat or Cold or High Radiation (This doesn't seem common enough, but CKC has a character with this as the defense)

5) Power Defense

6) Lack of Weakness or Density Increase

7) Hardened Defenses

 

To comment individually:

 

1. 1 character in my group; and I classify anyone who holds their breath as immune to such effects, so good luck getting a second hit. [in fairness, one characetr IMC is vulnerable to gas and toxins]

 

2. One character in my group. A second has a force wall shield which I would consider effective, but not against AoE as it only has a 3 hex side facing. This one's tough to simulate, but use of contacts to get a few VIPER force field belts would do it. And I would allow a superscientist to create a +5/+5 Force Field, does not add to PD/ED in excess of 5 (-2) to simulate a force field which does not defend against any other form of damage (just because force field has no "take an action to defend" approach).

 

3. Power no; ear coverings a couple; anyone could get some made; and I'd include special action to protect one's ears (ie hands over the ears).

 

4. Heat/cold - one character has it; I agree it doesn't sound that common, except that many supers will buy full suite LS and, more important, it can be simulated with appropriate equipment (hot and cold weather gear is pretty easy to come by; rad suits aren't as simple, but not impossible)

 

5. Power defense, IME, is common enough that an AVLD is more effective. I think two of six have it in my game, though very little.

 

6. One character has that, but it's not that common IME. Miund you, we don't use FW much. Given this, I would require some better definition and probably an expanded defense, and modify any published characters accordingly.

 

7. Three, but for soem reaosn they all hardened some defenses for concept reasons. Still, I would expect one or two in any group to have some hardened defense (even Combat Luck is a defense!)

 

In a group of 5 or 6 (mine's 6) I would expect someone to be defended against most NND's. Any holes would be random chance.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I'd say that it's 50/50 whether a team of 5 would have someone with the defense to the NND.

 

I think I'd have to carefully select a defense to get around a whole group of five. "Reasonably common" is more than 1 in 10 supers, in my opinion. A less common "natural" defense would have to be offset by a fairly easy way of dealing with it if you don't have the defense (eg. cold weather gear).

 

Originally posted by Gary

If you set limits to Rapid Fire Area Effect NND's, that simply proves my point that you think the maneuver is unbalancing.

 

Actually, it indicates my feeling that more gas somehow doing more damage in the same timeframe, rather than just spreading out over a wider area, does not make logical or dramatic sense. I also don't believe that, when two continuous Flaming Walls overlap, the damage in that hex is doubled.

 

To the extent a balance issue is involved, I am not persuaded it is Rapid Fire which creates the problem, rather than the NND advantage, lack of a sufficiently common defense, or area effect. Realistically, it is a combination of all of these. However, if anything, it is the combination of Rapid Fire and Area Effect which creates the issue - Rapid Fire imposes those nasty OCV penalties, but area effect attacks don't really suffer from OCV penalties.

 

As Farkling notes, it's funny how these "unbalanced maneuver" threads all seem to come back to attacks that need no roll to hit and have non-standard defenses. Maybe it's area effect NND's which should be banned! [i AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS]

 

Mind you, if NND Lad has a 10 OCV, he retains a 6 with 3 shot rapid fire. The hex he targets is likely more than 4" away, or he's in the attack (likely with that martial artist friend you noted, who likely lacks the defense), so that's OCV 4. You hit on a 12 or less. On average, you'll miss with at least one shot, losing control over the spread of the attack. On a roll of, say, 15 (not likely, but possible) on the first attack, you could miss by 3" and rapid fire your own team instead. Friendly advice...NEVER roll an 18! Sooner or later, we all roll an 18.

 

Originally posted by Gary

The area effect merely allows one person to wreck a team. A straight NND or Ego blast allows the person to wreck one target at a time..

 

The area effect allows you to avoid a to hit roll. Try it with a Non-Selective area and see how effective it is when you have to roll to hit each opponent with the OCV penaltiues applied by Rapid Fire. I'm assuming this is why you haven't argued Selective Area to avoid the risk of hitting your teammates.

 

And a non-cumulative Transform can generally wreck a character a phase. If it can't, it's useless.

 

Originally posted by Gary

What is to stop Wheels from Rapid Firing his Ego Blast? According to Farkling, he has 13 OECV with 6d6 Ego Blast. That should be an easy 3 hits vs most foes. And most foes can't survive 18d6 of damage.

 

According to Farkling, END. Sounds like Wheels, for all the "mentalist sniper" image conjured up, is a pretty balanced character.

 

Originally posted by Gary

I asked two GMs in my area. They both said that they would categorically ban Rapid Fire with nonstandard attacks such as the 4d6 area effect nnd or the ego blast. So at least a couple of "real games" deal with the problem by outright banning the maneuver.

 

That's Gary's area covered. Anyone else? And are these bannings preemptive or reactive? I am looking for someone who has seen the problem arise in an actual game and, as a consequence, has banned this maneuver.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If the party is so spread out that all of them are more than 45 feet away from each other, then the area effect nnd won't be effective. However, I reiterate that this is not a common situation.

 

8" between the two members furthest apart? I don't find this uncommon. They might all be clustered if NND Lad ambushes them. Otherwise, some have likely already moved forward. Actually, one drawback of "delay delay dealay" is that the group normally starts pretty clustered, so you expose yourself to AE's if you all stand around waiting.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And yet I suspect that without Rapid Fire, permission would have been granted as a matter of course. After all, one single 4d6 area effect nnd isn't that devastating. It's the triple tap that makes it so.

 

Permission for two+ NND's? No, that's never a "matter of course". I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe it suggests multiple NND's require GM permission. I've allowed it in limited circumstances (an archer with a lot of charged attacks comes to mind), but a character looking for two or three different areas of effect better provide me with a pretty compelling justification. Note that I would rather veto the unbalancing power than make a blanket ban on use of a maneuver.

 

Originally posted by Gary

The 9" cone should be able to get most parties. It covers a total of 45 hexes, and is almost 60 feet wide at its furthest extreme. Very few parties are spread out that much, except for people like Wheels who makes it a point not to be near the rest of the party.

 

Actually, one member who habitually takes point, or habitually hangs back, is not uncommon.

 

Originally posted by Gary

That would merely mean that only half the party gets zapped by 42 straight stun. Not bad for a single 60 pt attack. In fact, hitting one single target for 42 straight stun is pretty impressive for a 60 pt power. Hitting 2-3 targets is outright horrendous.

 

Again, you assume no one hasd the defense, which is a bold assertion. And it's one shot only - I know my players would unload on NND Boy with full force and worry about his allies afterwards. May as well fire three shots - you won't be needing that END next turn anyway - not after leaving yourself at 1/2 DCV.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Assuming like in most campaigns, that the Mentallist would be somewhere in the vicinity of the battle, he is vulnerable to dogpiling.

 

Unless he says "battle going poorly - no way I can turn the tide. I'll have to flee and come back with reinforcements (or follow and act when the odds are more favourable). My players (with some exceptions due to specific character personalities) are quite capable of tactical thinking that goes beyond "keep exchanging attacks until one side is all down". They're also quite willing to accept that the genre convention allows for battles the heros just aren't meant to win (even though they sometimes turn the tide and win those anyway).