Rapid Fire

[Talon]

Just read the whole thread (or at least most of it)...yikes.

 

Thoughts in no particular order:

 

1) If I was playing Hero right now I would certainly be able to provide an example of Rapid Fire being abusive in a game. I have used Sweep to devastating effect, without having PSLs or any equivalent.

 

2) In theory, Rapid Fire /looks/ abusable to me, again even without adding PSLs. It concerns me enough that I would want to house rule it or at least warn against it before the start of a campaign.

 

3) One solution that came to me: Rapid Fires against a single target are less effective, all hits after the first do half damage (after defenses). For a superheroic campaign this feels like it would achieve the proper effect, but it's just an idea. Actually limits NNDs more than normal attacks.

 

4) Part of the advantage of Rapid Fire (over Autofire and in general) is that anyone can do it, with any attack. As several posters have mentioned, it's a great way to finish a downed or immobilized enemy, and you don't have to design your character a certain way to take advantage of it.

 

5) 1/2 DCV is a serious penalty, but it's quite easy to minimize that penalty through proper tactics (or high defenses): Aborting, knowing there are better targets, etc.

 

6) Multiple-AOE attacks, whether Autofire or Rapid Fire, are definitely abusive and I've seen their abusiveness more than once. My house rule is that such attacks provide extra area but not extra damage; i.e., you can't take damage more than once per Phase from such an attack. If someone really complained I might give a Limitation for this, but more likely I would just make them buy expanded area instead.

 

7) I like the advantage-synergy idea, but for some reason it seems too radical to implement unless Hero actually adopts it for v6. I do agree that "Advantage Happy Syndrome" is a flaw in the system as written.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It's a pretty devestating 1 shot attack - no denying that. But the character becomes a one hit wonder. He's now at 1/2 DCV and down significant END. The rest of the group is now focused on him as their primary target - a second shot is, at best, unlikely. And based on Farkling's comments, the cyborg should be considered immune.

 

I agree that with Farkling's clarifications, the Cyborg is more than likely to have the defense. However, I'm not sure that NND dude isn't going to have a second attack. A MA buddy could easily block an OCV 8 Cory, and the rest of his team can finish off the weakened survivors. That leaves Wheels who may Con Stun him, but is unlikely to Knock him out (unless he uses Rapid Fire himself, which would support my original point). And NND dude would get a post 12 Rec just like everybody else.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Actually, it indicates my feeling that more gas somehow doing more damage in the same timeframe, rather than just spreading out over a wider area, does not make logical or dramatic sense. I also don't believe that, when two continuous Flaming Walls overlap, the damage in that hex is doubled.

 

But you would allow it for other special effects?

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

To the extent a balance issue is involved, I am not persuaded it is Rapid Fire which creates the problem, rather than the NND advantage, lack of a sufficiently common defense, or area effect. Realistically, it is a combination of all of these. However, if anything, it is the combination of Rapid Fire and Area Effect which creates the issue - Rapid Fire imposes those nasty OCV penalties, but area effect attacks don't really suffer from OCV penalties.

 

Yep, it's a combination of these things. Rapid Fire makes powers that were originally balanced to be unbalanced (a 4d6 area effect nnd is balanced if only 1 shot is allowed). If you remove that ingredient, things go back to balance.

 

And it's not just area effects. Ego blasts or spread NNDs have the same problems, only vs 1 target instead of an area. Wheels has a 13 OECV with a 6d6 ego blast. Nothing stops him from triple tapping foes anytime he wants to. And spreading the 6d6 NND for +4 OCV still leaves 4d6 NND for the triple tap vs one foe.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

As Farkling notes, it's funny how these "unbalanced maneuver" threads all seem to come back to attacks that need no roll to hit and have non-standard defenses. Maybe it's area effect NND's which should be banned! [i AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS]

 

Mind you, if NND Lad has a 10 OCV, he retains a 6 with 3 shot rapid fire. The hex he targets is likely more than 4" away, or he's in the attack (likely with that martial artist friend you noted, who likely lacks the defense), so that's OCV 4. You hit on a 12 or less. On average, you'll miss with at least one shot, losing control over the spread of the attack. On a roll of, say, 15 (not likely, but possible) on the first attack, you could miss by 3" and rapid fire your own team instead. Friendly advice...NEVER roll an 18! Sooner or later, we all roll an 18.

 

Or the NND dude has OCV 12 (the example we used that was explictly permitted was a 26 dex 3 skill level dude), or has area effect cone or any area, or spreads for +3 OCV which leaves a 3d6 area effect NND.

 

And I agree that rolling a 18 would be bad.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The area effect allows you to avoid a to hit roll. Try it with a Non-Selective area and see how effective it is when you have to roll to hit each opponent with the OCV penaltiues applied by Rapid Fire. I'm assuming this is why you haven't argued Selective Area to avoid the risk of hitting your teammates.

 

And a non-cumulative Transform can generally wreck a character a phase. If it can't, it's useless.

 

A rapid fire Transform can wreck a character a phase. A standard one generally can't. 4d6 for 60 pts generally takes 2 phases. At 2 phases, it's balanced and still quite useful. I heavily disagree that a Transform would be "useless" if it can't zap a target in a single phase.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

According to Farkling, END. Sounds like Wheels, for all the "mentalist sniper" image conjured up, is a pretty balanced character.

 

18 end per phase to deliver 18d6 damage? That sounds like an efficient use of end to me. My guess is that if Wheels started zapping people with 18d6 regularly, that the GM would either ban it, or make sure that Wheels gets shot at a lot more. And from Farkling's description, it sounds like Wheels is kinda fragile. He depends on not getting hit, which means that one good hit will probably put him out.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

That's Gary's area covered. Anyone else? And are these bannings preemptive or reactive? I am looking for someone who has seen the problem arise in an actual game and, as a consequence, has banned this maneuver.

 

It's kinda both. Both of them told me that if a player tried to pull a stunt like that, that they would ban the maneuver in play immediately. They don't like the idea of 12d6 area effect NNDs for 60 pts.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

8" between the two members furthest apart? I don't find this uncommon. They might all be clustered if NND Lad ambushes them. Otherwise, some have likely already moved forward. Actually, one drawback of "delay delay dealay" is that the group normally starts pretty clustered, so you expose yourself to AE's if you all stand around waiting.

 

How big of a battle map do you use? I find it extremely uncommon that all the members of a party are 8" or greater apart from each other.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Permission for two+ NND's? No, that's never a "matter of course". I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe it suggests multiple NND's require GM permission. I've allowed it in limited circumstances (an archer with a lot of charged attacks comes to mind), but a character looking for two or three different areas of effect better provide me with a pretty compelling justification. Note that I would rather veto the unbalancing power than make a blanket ban on use of a maneuver.

 

It would be a matter of course for me, if Rapid Fire wasn't involved, as long as both NNDs have the same defense. Paying 6 extra points for a secondary area effect NND for close in fighting seems quite reasonable to me. 4d6 nnd without the triple tap doesn't trip off any of my alarms.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Again, you assume no one hasd the defense, which is a bold assertion. And it's one shot only - I know my players would unload on NND Boy with full force and worry about his allies afterwards. May as well fire three shots - you won't be needing that END next turn anyway - not after leaving yourself at 1/2 DCV.

 

Hmm, let's assume that NND boy hits your party of 5. A typical result might be that 1 is immune, 1-2 are knocked out, 1-2 are badly hurt, and 1 is a brick and just mad. Even if the survivors take out NND boy (below where he can take a post 12 recovery), that means his 4 buddies have free shots. They are quite likely to at least take out the 1-2 badly hurt members. That would leave 4 vs the immune and the brick. Huge advantage to NND dude's team.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Unless he says "battle going poorly - no way I can turn the tide. I'll have to flee and come back with reinforcements (or follow and act when the odds are more favourable). My players (with some exceptions due to specific character personalities) are quite capable of tactical thinking that goes beyond "keep exchanging attacks until one side is all down". They're also quite willing to accept that the genre convention allows for battles the heros just aren't meant to win (even though they sometimes turn the tide and win those anyway).

 

That might advance the plot, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it means that virtually every battle where one member of a team has an area effect nonstandard attack is a battle that the hero isn't "meant to win".

[Farkling]

If NNDboy has someone covering him, Cory would throw a car sized object at them. She's mad, not stupid.

 

Yes Wheels is fragile. Comes fom game breaking powers. He has limited END for his direct attack powers. His indirect powers are more easily sustained (Mind Control/Illusions). he is not above telepathically monitoring the state of a specific villain. over Mind Link: "Hit him now Josh. He's scared of your plasma beams and is rocky on his feet"

 

In their own way, so are the Cyborg and the Witch; one has gamebreaking defenses, one has some game breaking abilities/attacks.

 

The Witch doesn't carry a force-field (because of DCV levels, costs END), so fallls to the NND by avoioding typical character min-max design and going for flavor instead. She didn't picture a force field, she specifically requested the winds approach. Her flight is erratic (requires to hit roll for specific target hex), but that is a symptom of her movements in flight being from the winds "pushing her about at her will", thus allowing for the DCV bonus.

 

The Cyborg has a restrainable mod on a major chunk of his abilities, as he was assmbled YEARS ago, when cybernetics were in their infancy. He's subject to certain electromagnetic tools/suites that exist in the campaign world. His defenses are simply over campaign max. Wheels has been buying some surplus military hardware for him, and since the stuff is modular, Josh is helping Cyborg upgrade his systems to old military specs (a reasonable project for reducing the limitation, kudos to my players).

 

Josh has a great ranged attack power suite, and MA DEX/SPD, instead of a force field or inherent "I am tough because I am a Champions character and I bought PD/ED," he carries a shield from his mercenary days that stands in as Armor and occasional missile deflection. His reflexes are so good, the armor was only limited by "must percieve attack"

 

You are already aware of Cory's gamebreaking ability.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Farkling

If NNDboy has someone covering him, Cory would throw a car sized object at them. She's mad, not stupid.

 

That assumes that there is a big object conveniently nearby. And the MA could easily dive for cover, knocking NND boy out of the area effect. Or it could be someone throwing a force wall up. Or if it's a brick covering him, the brick simply steps in front and takes the hit.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Yes Wheels is fragile. Comes fom game breaking powers. He has limited END for his direct attack powers. His indirect powers are more easily sustained (Mind Control/Illusions). he is not above telepathically monitoring the state of a specific villain. over Mind Link: "Hit him now Josh. He's scared of your plasma beams and is rocky on his feet"

 

The trouble with using indirect powers is that they're not reliable, especially at the 60 pt level. Assuming NND dude has an ego of 15, Wheels would need to roll 45 on 12d6 to get +30. Or he could try for a +20 effect which gives him a much better chance, but limits the damage he can do. And even if the effect is achieved, a 12- breakout roll isn't too difficult. If the attack fails either because of insufficient effect or a breakout roll, the target now knows where the attack came from and can target Wheels more efficiently, or direct his teammates to do so. Of course if NND dude has even base level Mental defense, the task becomes that much harder.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

In their own way, so are the Cyborg and the Witch; one has gamebreaking defenses, one has some game breaking abilities/attacks.

 

The Witch doesn't carry a force-field (because of DCV levels, costs END), so fallls to the NND by avoioding typical character min-max design and going for flavor instead. She didn't picture a force field, she specifically requested the winds approach. Her flight is erratic (requires to hit roll for specific target hex), but that is a symptom of her movements in flight being from the winds "pushing her about at her will", thus allowing for the DCV bonus.

 

The Cyborg has a restrainable mod on a major chunk of his abilities, as he was assmbled YEARS ago, when cybernetics were in their infancy. He's subject to certain electromagnetic tools/suites that exist in the campaign world. His defenses are simply over campaign max. Wheels has been buying some surplus military hardware for him, and since the stuff is modular, Josh is helping Cyborg upgrade his systems to old military specs (a reasonable project for reducing the limitation, kudos to my players).

 

Josh has a great ranged attack power suite, and MA DEX/SPD, instead of a force field or inherent "I am tough because I am a Champions character and I bought PD/ED," he carries a shield from his mercenary days that stands in as Armor and occasional missile deflection. His reflexes are so good, the armor was only limited by "must percieve attack"

 

You are already aware of Cory's gamebreaking ability.

 

Overall, I like this group. Nice and balanced, but with weaknesses that the GM can exploit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

I agree that with Farkling's clarifications, the Cyborg is more than likely to have the defense. However, I'm not sure that NND dude isn't going to have a second attack. A MA buddy could easily block an OCV 8 Cory, and the rest of his team can finish off the weakened survivors.

 

This simply gets into tactical issues. And it assumes that none of the other team have powers which happen to be exceptionally useful against NND Lad's Legion of Lad Protectors. What prevents Wheels, Cyborg and Cory from working TOGETHER? [Ego Blast the martial artist to stun him and no more block. Too bad! Mind Control him to strike at Cory - before she attacks NND Lad - and she takes a few STUN, maybe, but we still end up with NND Paste]

 

Originally posted by Gary

And NND dude would get a post 12 Rec just like everybody else.

 

Not if the three group members not KO'd all fire on him. -11 STUN is all it will take...

 

Originally posted by Gary

But you would allow it for other special effects?

 

I'd have to see it on a case by case basis, though I can't think of any. Still, let's carry on under the assumption it would be allowed.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Yep, it's a combination of these things. Rapid Fire makes powers that were originally balanced to be unbalanced (a 4d6 area effect nnd is balanced if only 1 shot is allowed). If you remove that ingredient, things go back to balance.

 

And it's not just area effects. Ego blasts or spread NNDs have the same problems, only vs 1 target instead of an area. Wheels has a 13 OECV with a 6d6 ego blast. Nothing stops him from triple tapping foes anytime he wants to. And spreading the 6d6 NND for +4 OCV still leaves 4d6 NND for the triple tap vs one foe.

 

Now we're getting back to Rapid Attack as a whole. Let's ignore Spreading for the moment and assume one has a sufficient OCV to expect to hit consistently. Using 12d6 EB and 27 DEF (from another thread), 3 hits = 45 STUN. Using 6d6 NND, it's 63 or none. Ego Blast is similar.

 

All Rapid Fire does is enhance the differences between these attacks. If they're overpowered fired three at a time, they're also overpowered without Rapid Attack.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Or the NND dude has OCV 12 (the example we used that was explictly permitted was a 26 dex 3 skill level dude), or has area effect cone or any area, or spreads for +3 OCV which leaves a 3d6 area effect NND.

 

All of this assumes that the opposition is within 4 hexes, but has not closed enough for combat. Further out means range modifiers. I've seen rare characters who can't cover 4" in a half move, but not too many teams in "transport mode". So OCV 6 seems a reasonable end result.

 

And if you spread, we're now down to about 30 STUN, so Cyborg's in better shape, Plasma Boy gets an attack and Cory's recovering pretty much everything on PS 12.

 

Originally posted by Gary

And I agree that rolling a 18 would be bad.

 

It's definitely never good!

 

Originally posted by Gary

A rapid fire Transform can wreck a character a phase. A standard one generally can't. 4d6 for 60 pts generally takes 2 phases. At 2 phases, it's balanced and still quite useful. I heavily disagree that a Transform would be "useless" if it can't zap a target in a single phase.

 

reread my statement. It said a NON-CUMULATIVE transform either takes out a target a phase or is useless.

 

Originally posted by Gary

How big of a battle map do you use? I find it extremely uncommon that all the members of a party are 8" or greater apart from each other.

 

Fairly large, although I also use a wide variety of ordinary maps. When Mr. "90 STR in a pinch" smacks an opponent and rolls snake eyes for knockback, we need some space.

 

Generally, if they're all clustered in, it's because they're exiting a vehicle or a building. Or because the opposition is all clustered and they move in to engage, I suppose. Approaching a known "hot zone", they like to come in from at least two angles, mainly to minimize the risk of missing seeing something important.

 

Originally posted by Gary

It would be a matter of course for me, if Rapid Fire wasn't involved, as long as both NNDs have the same defense. Paying 6 extra points for a secondary area effect NND for close in fighting seems quite reasonable to me. 4d6 nnd without the triple tap doesn't trip off any of my alarms.

 

YMMV I look twice at multiple NND's. It smacks of players frantically trying to eliminate any situation where the characters could be at a disadvantage.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Hmm, let's assume that NND boy hits your party of 5. A typical result might be that 1 is immune, 1-2 are knocked out, 1-2 are badly hurt, and 1 is a brick and just mad. Even if the survivors take out NND boy (below where he can take a post 12 recovery), that means his 4 buddies have free shots. They are quite likely to at least take out the 1-2 badly hurt members. That would leave 4 vs the immune and the brick. Huge advantage to NND dude's team.

 

His four buddies can't defend him and attack us at the same time. And I've watched Ward recover from amazing disadvantages to clean up the field.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This simply gets into tactical issues. And it assumes that none of the other team have powers which happen to be exceptionally useful against NND Lad's Legion of Lad Protectors. What prevents Wheels, Cyborg and Cory from working TOGETHER? [Ego Blast the martial artist to stun him and no more block. Too bad! Mind Control him to strike at Cory - before she attacks NND Lad - and she takes a few STUN, maybe, but we still end up with NND Paste]

 

That would work. It should only require a +0 effects on mind control for that command. However, that leaves 3 members of NND dude's team left.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Not if the three group members not KO'd all fire on him. -11 STUN is all it will take...

 

Wheels is definitely going to get a shot unless he does the mind control thing. Either way, it's probably going to be only 2 who are able to attack. That may or may not be enough to bring him to -11. And that leaves 4 unopposed members. 1 will finish off the cripples, and 1 is probably going to try and hold off the brick. That leaves 2 with free attacks.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Now we're getting back to Rapid Attack as a whole. Let's ignore Spreading for the moment and assume one has a sufficient OCV to expect to hit consistently. Using 12d6 EB and 27 DEF (from another thread), 3 hits = 45 STUN. Using 6d6 NND, it's 63 or none. Ego Blast is similar.

 

All Rapid Fire does is enhance the differences between these attacks. If they're overpowered fired three at a time, they're also overpowered without Rapid Attack.

 

There's a pretty big difference between 45 stun and 63 stun. And that assumes that the OCV is high enough to reliably hit 3 times. If OCV is insufficient, it's far easier to spread the NND. And the Ego blast has a huge inherent advantage in CV vs most foes.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

All of this assumes that the opposition is within 4 hexes, but has not closed enough for combat. Further out means range modifiers. I've seen rare characters who can't cover 4" in a half move, but not too many teams in "transport mode". So OCV 6 seems a reasonable end result.

 

And if you spread, we're now down to about 30 STUN, so Cyborg's in better shape, Plasma Boy gets an attack and Cory's recovering pretty much everything on PS 12.

 

With the 12 OCV, that's a 14- to hit at up to 8" away. That's usually not a problem. The area effect cone is even less of a problem. And the spreading does lower the dice, but it's a cheap price to get 3 hits.

 

Also you're ignoring NND dude's ability to half move and then attack at closer range.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It's definitely never good!

 

We agree on something!

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

reread my statement. It said a NON-CUMULATIVE transform either takes out a target a phase or is useless.

 

Since transforms get cumulative for free, I don't see the point of your statement.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Fairly large, although I also use a wide variety of ordinary maps. When Mr. "90 STR in a pinch" smacks an opponent and rolls snake eyes for knockback, we need some space.

 

Generally, if they're all clustered in, it's because they're exiting a vehicle or a building. Or because the opposition is all clustered and they move in to engage, I suppose. Approaching a known "hot zone", they like to come in from at least two angles, mainly to minimize the risk of missing seeing something important.

 

That would still leave 3 of them hit by the triple tap. And NND boy has less worry about hitting his own team if they're spread out.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

YMMV I look twice at multiple NND's. It smacks of players frantically trying to eliminate any situation where the characters could be at a disadvantage.

 

The player could have easily spent those 6 points on other stuff rather than a slot that would be redundant most of the time. For instance, +2 CSLs with the multipower.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

His four buddies can't defend him and attack us at the same time. And I've watched Ward recover from amazing disadvantages to clean up the field.

 

There would probably be 1 bodyguard, and the rest finishes off cripples or anyone who looks especially dangerous (such as Wheels from Farkling's example).

[Farkling]

Far longer than intended, and a hijack/commentary

 

Gary Said

Overall, I like this group. Nice and balanced, but with weaknesses that the GM can exploit.

 

Gary liked something!

Wait...let me repeat that...

Gary liked something!

 

Damn. I guess I shouldn't have given up on the unified field theory I was working on!

 

I chattered on about this thread tonight to two of my Champs players. (Oddly, it was the Witch and the Cyborg) They asked "What about Michael?" (the ArchAngel), who I completely did not mention! Guess he's off on an assignment from God ?? (pesky "subject to Orders" limitation)

 

Oddly enough, the only character I really had to exert any balance control on was Josh. His player said he'd like ot be able to throw plasma beams or something, just attack powers, so I staged a radiation accident. I think he even still has side effects on most of his plasma beams (more fun than a paltry Activation roll). Everybody else had very firm character concepts with built in weaknesses. Wheels is played by the pickup GM (who runs DnD 3), and Hob built Wheels crippled with the huge mental abilities.

Wheels was actually concieved as a self destructive character, since most hits could reduce him to goo. After proving the theory of the character was sound, versatile, and powerful, he planned Wheels to reach a "plot device level" and set aside as GENOCIDE took full offensive against his abilities...he was pretty sure once GENOCIDE got organized, he'd be paste (our game has a Cyberpunk edge to it, GENOCIDE has surplus military copters with Megascaled Mutant Suppressors available. Our Heroes did capture the technology from a downed one, and make their power defense gadgets...).

 

Hob derailed the GENOCIDE plot by tampering with things man was not meant to know (a setup I designed for the ArchAngel), the last time the heroes saw him, he was 7 feet of Aztec perfection striding out into Herotzala (North America) to fight the evil invaders from across the ocean. Poor heroes, when they came back out to Chicago, they were in a different world. Wheels broke the timestream by trying to establish mental control over a 2001 style minilith. Luckily Cory speaks two languages very similar to the surrounding civilization. (no, one is NOT ENglish)

 

Hob's other character ideas follow the same "trump card" path. A full range metamorph/shapeshifter with variable power sets, a heat/cold projector/manipulator with armor, absorbtion and tunnelling, or a nanite/biotech ailment producer. He prefers the nonstandard power suites instead of conventional characters. IE: Plot/Game breakers to bypass the "standard" GM.

Drain/Suppress/Aid/NND/Corrosives/Dispel/Flash etc...those are likely to go on his toxic character. His closest analogy was "like status ailments in computer RPG's, things that inhibit/decrease functionality and power level, but built as actual powers." I sent him back for "special effects" instead of "powers I'd like to have" We'll see what comes up.

 

Hob played for a some time with a restrictive HERO game master (someone who "informed him" that the Wheels concept couldn't be built on 350 pts, especially with the proposed machine class mind effects). I honestly believe Hob is slowly testing the limits of Hero system.

 

He will be assimilated.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

That would work. It should only require a +0 effects on mind control for that command. However, that leaves 3 members of NND dude's team left.

 

NND Lad is down for the count. MA teammate is attacking a "poor choice" foe. The other team has one character down. Things are evening up.

 

Originally posted by Gary

There's a pretty big difference between 45 stun and 63 stun. And that assumes that the OCV is high enough to reliably hit 3 times. If OCV is insufficient, it's far easier to spread the NND. And the Ego blast has a huge inherent advantage in CV vs most foes.

 

The difference, however, attributes to the differences bgetween NND and EB, not Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire serves only to exacerbate, and highlight, the discrepancy by tripling it in our example. The NND does 21 STUN per hit, the EB 15. The NND is 60% greater than the EB. This would seem to imply (by the logic you express on the Stun Multiple thread) that NND is far too cheap, even before advantage stacking.

 

Originally posted by Gary

With the 12 OCV, that's a 14- to hit at up to 8" away. That's usually not a problem. The area effect cone is even less of a problem. And the spreading does lower the dice, but it's a cheap price to get 3 hits.

 

Also you're ignoring NND dude's ability to half move and then attack at closer range.

 

Yup. You know what else we've been ignoring? The third dimension. The Weather Witch (the most vulnerable character from Farkling's five person example) is flying, and up high enough that the cyborg must leap to catch her lest she go **splat**. If she's at a significant altitude, getting your AE to get her and the guys on the ground is a lot more challenging. And if you center on her hex, anyone not directly below her (assuming she's only 4" up) will be "overshot" by the radius.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Since transforms get cumulative for free, I don't see the point of your statement.

 

All or nothing is a -1/2 limit noted quite clearly. Some players take this to simulate older version characters where non-cumulative was the default. It's not common, but then Transform isn't exactly 1 character in 5 either.

 

Originally posted by Gary

That would still leave 3 of them hit by the triple tap. And NND boy has less worry about hitting his own team if they're spread out.

 

With NND Lad having the advantage of knowing they're coming, he will get a shot off (at some range perhaps) while his team is out of danger. But my players also generally try to have a flyer on each side, which (as discussed above) can further limit NND Boy's options for hitting everyone.

 

And one of them may have the defense, as well.

 

Originally posted by Gary

The player could have easily spent those 6 points on other stuff rather than a slot that would be redundant most of the time. For instance, +2 CSLs with the multipower.

 

Which would add to my assessment of his overall offensive capabilities in determining whether to allow him as written. I generally require a good justification for multiple NND's - I don't care how many points he spends.

 

BTW, this reminds me that Farkling's players are also disadavntaged in that he only allows them one power framework each. And still they will give NND Boy's team a tough fight even if NND Boy gets all the advantages up front!

 

Originally posted by Gary

There would probably be 1 bodyguard, and the rest finishes off cripples or anyone who looks especially dangerous (such as Wheels from Farkling's example).

 

I think the issue here is that Wheels doesn't look like anything - he's in cover. It would certainly be an interesting battle to fight through. Three times, say, once where NND Boy gets his choice of terrain, once where the other team does and a third in a more neutral setting.

 

It's a powerful ability, but it certainly doesn't guarantee a win. And who wants Supers who have no powerful abilities?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

NND Lad is down for the count. MA teammate is attacking a "poor choice" foe. The other team has one character down. Things are evening up.

 

The other team has 2 characters down because the cripple is finished off by NND Lad's teammates. So it's Wheels, Cyborg, and a damaged Cory vs 4 teammates of NND Lad, and that assumes that Cory by herself is enough to bring NND Lad to -11 in one shot. That's not a guarantee. Also, that assumes that the 2 unaccounted for teammates (The MA and NND boy has gone, and 1 teammate has finished off Plasma Boy) doesn't take down Cory or Cyborg using their action.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

The difference, however, attributes to the differences bgetween NND and EB, not Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire serves only to exacerbate, and highlight, the discrepancy by tripling it in our example. The NND does 21 STUN per hit, the EB 15. The NND is 60% greater than the EB. This would seem to imply (by the logic you express on the Stun Multiple thread) that NND is far too cheap, even before advantage stacking.

 

The NND is 40% greater than the EB. The break even point between them is 21 def, where both do the same average damage. One advantage that EB has is that pushes are exactly twice as effective for them compared to NNDs. The NND advantage is that spreading is exactly twice as effective as compared to EBs.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yup. You know what else we've been ignoring? The third dimension. The Weather Witch (the most vulnerable character from Farkling's five person example) is flying, and up high enough that the cyborg must leap to catch her lest she go **splat**. If she's at a significant altitude, getting your AE to get her and the guys on the ground is a lot more challenging. And if you center on her hex, anyone not directly below her (assuming she's only 4" up) will be "overshot" by the radius.

 

If she's only 4" up, there is no problem. The NND is going to be aimed at a hex 2" in the air to zap everyone. If she were 8" in the air or higher, there would be a problem in targetting. Of course if she's that far in the air, she'd have a problem targetting others due to the range modifiers.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

All or nothing is a -1/2 limit noted quite clearly. Some players take this to simulate older version characters where non-cumulative was the default. It's not common, but then Transform isn't exactly 1 character in 5 either.

 

Since 5th edition appeared, I haven't seen a single player take All or Nothing on their transform. It's simply not worth it.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

With NND Lad having the advantage of knowing they're coming, he will get a shot off (at some range perhaps) while his team is out of danger. But my players also generally try to have a flyer on each side, which (as discussed above) can further limit NND Boy's options for hitting everyone.

 

And one of them may have the defense, as well.

 

Only if the flyer stays high in the air and takes range mod penalties of his own. It still seems likely that NND Lad is going to catch at least two people even if your team is being very careful and knows about his special attack. If they don't know about his special attack, they're hosed.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Which would add to my assessment of his overall offensive capabilities in determining whether to allow him as written. I generally require a good justification for multiple NND's - I don't care how many points he spends.

 

YMMV. Multiple NNDs don't bother me as long as they have the same defense, and if Rapid Fire isn't involved. It wouldn't bother me if a player had a single target NND and an area effect one as slots in his multipower.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

BTW, this reminds me that Farkling's players are also disadavntaged in that he only allows them one power framework each. And still they will give NND Boy's team a tough fight even if NND Boy gets all the advantages up front!

 

I would assume that NND boy's teams operate under the same one framework limitation as well. And I'd say that NND boy's team should easily win unless Wheels gets really lucky with a mind control before he's taken out.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I think the issue here is that Wheels doesn't look like anything - he's in cover. It would certainly be an interesting battle to fight through. Three times, say, once where NND Boy gets his choice of terrain, once where the other team does and a third in a more neutral setting.

 

It's a powerful ability, but it certainly doesn't guarantee a win. And who wants Supers who have no powerful abilities?

 

If NND lad really gets a 12d6 triple tap off on most of the party, it may not guarantee a win, but it'll certainly heavily tip the scales. A lot depends on Wheels, since most teams would be able to handle just Cory and Cyborg.

[Farkling]

I'd have to give Gary this. NNDboy and teamates will make short shrift of Cyborg and Cory. Cyborg is not a quick thinker, and Cory, though she has flashes of brilliance, pretty much operates under a "hit again" mentality. A three man villain group marginally stronger than them pretty much made them look like idiots in one of their encounters (#3 was a Wheels type, out of range and sight and offering aid buffs/fire-support). Hob was upset that an apparent TWO attackers made them look like rookies.

 

Cyborg DOES carry flash grenades for sight and sound (AE attack too). IF he survives, he may be able to neutralize NNDboy quickly enough for Cory to down him.

 

The which has an AE attack, and a spreadable AP EB, wither of which she could shoot NNDboy with from a very high altitude. IF he can rapid fire his smoke cloud, I don't seee any reason she cannot rapid fire her arctic blizzard. She habitually flies high (building hieghts), because she has that accuracy problem on her flight...when she does she uses one of the radios or maintains a Mind Link with Wheels.

 

They worked out a reaction to overwhelming team assault after the encounter I mentioned above. Assuming the visible existence of a fuill team, Cyborg would probably retreat with the damaged weather witch. Wheels would port in and port out Josh, and they'd leave Cory to her own devices while they regrouped. Cory is not a real team player until something kicks the shit out of her. And she has proved to be mostly invulnerable...Wheels is ruthless enough to gamble her against a fast regroup and call for support if necessary. And the woman that plays Cory is his WIFE !!

 

I think NNDboy will premiere in the next supervillain team, or I may allow for experimental RnD from GENOCIDE with some rapid fired NND blasters...

 

Josh apparently HAS rapid fire. It's completely believeable that he would launch a strafe in reply instead of a single shot. He is ex-military (corporate wars) AND destructive.

The Cyborg would not be likely to purchase it. He has a limited supply of grenades, and his Railgun is a sniping weapon. The Witch? Maybe, maybe not. She HAS wanted to toss more than one ball lightning at once...I can picture her out practicing that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

The NND is 40% greater than the EB. The break even point between them is 21 def, where both do the same average damage. One advantage that EB has is that pushes are exactly twice as effective for them compared to NNDs. The NND advantage is that spreading is exactly twice as effective as compared to EBs.

 

That 40% advantage exists whether Rapid Fire is an option or not. How much more expensive should be make NND, since it seems to be the problem? +1 1/2 would make a 5d6 NND cost just a bit more than a 12d6 EB. 5d6 would average 17.5 STUN vs 15 from EB. That's pretty close. I guess that makes AVLD +2 (or + 1 3/4). How much should we price ego attacks at to make sure everything is equal for STUN purposes? [How many powers get modified? Are we still playing the same game when we're done?]

 

Originally posted by Gary

If she's only 4" up, there is no problem. The NND is going to be aimed at a hex 2" in the air to zap everyone. If she were 8" in the air or higher, there would be a problem in targetting. Of course if she's that far in the air, she'd have a problem targetting others due to the range modifiers.

 

Centering 2" off the ground means less than a 4" radius on the ground will be covered. As the ground area gets smaller, the ability to hit all targets is commensurateky reduced.

 

If she's 4" in the air, you'll need to center the AoE on her hex, but ground level, to hit her, or raise the target hex, reducing the ground level hexes you can hit.

 

And penalty skill levels to offset, say, -4 range mod isn't that expensive. Every 2 more doubles how far away you can be (but you need telescopic vision at some point)

 

Originally posted by Gary

Since 5th edition appeared, I haven't seen a single player take All or Nothing on their transform. It's simply not worth it.

 

tut tut...placing power over conception in so shameless a fashion!

 

Originally posted by Gary

Only if the flyer stays high in the air and takes range mod penalties of his own. It still seems likely that NND Lad is going to catch at least two people even if your team is being very careful and knows about his special attack. If they don't know about his special attack, they're hosed..

 

This depends on how high in the air, how far away horizontally and whether the flyer is worried about range penalties. And he can also close after your attack (you're assuming you get the first move, remember?). Besides, if he's taking no range penalties, he's close enough that you're now risking catching your bodyguard in your AoE.

 

But I'd agree extraordinary precautions would be required to hold NND Lad to one target. If they know about his special attack, they can come prepared. Oh look - they ALL have newly acquired hard ear coverings - sub your defense accordingly. Now he's hosed. A defense impossible to simulate is pretty tough to consider "reasonably common".

 

Originally posted by Gary

I would assume that NND boy's teams operate under the same one framework limitation as well. And I'd say that NND boy's team should easily win unless Wheels gets really lucky with a mind control before he's taken out.

 

I think you underestimate the difficulty taking out someone hidden like that, but he's a very unusual character - there won't be one like him on many teams.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If NND lad really gets a 12d6 triple tap off on most of the party, it may not guarantee a win, but it'll certainly heavily tip the scales. A lot depends on Wheels, since most teams would be able to handle just Cory and Cyborg.

 

Numerous different powers, abilities, tactics and lucky rolls can provide (or eliminate) a significant advantage. Simply having an attack one member of the opposing team is especially vulnerable to, especially if it's a fairly obvious one, can have a huge impact. That's part of the game.

 

To state that the NND example does not provide a major advantage in the right circumstances would be foolish. But no more foolish than believing it guarantees an autowin.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

That 40% advantage exists whether Rapid Fire is an option or not. How much more expensive should be make NND, since it seems to be the problem? +1 1/2 would make a 5d6 NND cost just a bit more than a 12d6 EB. 5d6 would average 17.5 STUN vs 15 from EB. That's pretty close. I guess that makes AVLD +2 (or + 1 3/4). How much should we price ego attacks at to make sure everything is equal for STUN purposes? [How many powers get modified? Are we still playing the same game when we're done?]

 

The advantage is only 40% when the defense is 27. At any other defense levels, the number differs. At 21 def they're even, and below 21 def, the EB is better. IOW, use the NNDs vs bricks and the EBs vs martial artists.

 

But Rapid Fire generally helps the NND more than the EB since defenses get applied separately vs the EB. This matters when it comes to something like spreading, since spreading +1 OCV is taking 3d6 net stun from the triple tap.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Centering 2" off the ground means less than a 4" radius on the ground will be covered. As the ground area gets smaller, the ability to hit all targets is commensurateky reduced.

 

If she's 4" in the air, you'll need to center the AoE on her hex, but ground level, to hit her, or raise the target hex, reducing the ground level hexes you can hit.

 

And penalty skill levels to offset, say, -4 range mod isn't that expensive. Every 2 more doubles how far away you can be (but you need telescopic vision at some point)

 

If the flier can have PSLs to cancel range, then so can NND Lad.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

tut tut...placing power over conception in so shameless a fashion!

 

You betcha! The trick of course, is to make sure that your conception allows for cumulative.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This depends on how high in the air, how far away horizontally and whether the flyer is worried about range penalties. And he can also close after your attack (you're assuming you get the first move, remember?). Besides, if he's taking no range penalties, he's close enough that you're now risking catching your bodyguard in your AoE.

 

But I'd agree extraordinary precautions would be required to hold NND Lad to one target. If they know about his special attack, they can come prepared. Oh look - they ALL have newly acquired hard ear coverings - sub your defense accordingly. Now he's hosed. A defense impossible to simulate is pretty tough to consider "reasonably common".

 

That's only if they know that they're going to be facing him. And some of the defenses are going to be pretty hard to come by and/or difficult to use. I can just see the martial artist and energy projector patrolling the city in a bulky radiation suit just in case NND Lad happens to drop by.

 

And if it's obvious that the entire party has been outfitted with force field belts or radiation suits, then NND boy simply uses a standard attack instead of the NND. It cost him nothing, and forced his foes to do stuff they normally wouldn't.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I think you underestimate the difficulty taking out someone hidden like that, but he's a very unusual character - there won't be one like him on many teams.

 

The trouble is that if his mental attack doesn't succeed for whatever reason, the target immediately knows where the attack is coming from. And I agree that Wheels is unusual.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Numerous different powers, abilities, tactics and lucky rolls can provide (or eliminate) a significant advantage. Simply having an attack one member of the opposing team is especially vulnerable to, especially if it's a fairly obvious one, can have a huge impact. That's part of the game.

 

To state that the NND example does not provide a major advantage in the right circumstances would be foolish. But no more foolish than believing it guarantees an autowin.

 

It's not an auto win, but it's certainly a huge advantage. One person taking down 1-2 enemies and wounding 1-2 more in a single shot is pretty terrifying when you consider that each side only has 5-6 members.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

But Rapid Fire generally helps the NND more than the EB since defenses get applied separately vs the EB. This matters when it comes to something like spreading, since spreading +1 OCV is taking 3d6 net stun from the triple tap.

 

Here, the question becomes whether spreading should cost a damage class of the advantaged power (as it currently does) or a damage class of the base power (ie 1d6 EB no matter how many advantages are piled upon it). This would reduce somewhat the value of advantages if one spreads attacks a lot.

 

I'm not advocating this change. I am saying don't leap to the conclusion that Rapid Fire is the problem, but look at all the components which lead to the perceived problem.

 

For me, Rapid fire and Sweep may be best left to Heroic campaigns, much like hit locations, where the OCV and DCV spread is generally narrower. But I'll wait until seeing it in action before deciding.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If the flier can have PSLs to cancel range, then so can NND Lad.

 

Sure can. But this doesn't make the flier any closer to the other characters, or broaden your area of effect, so they really aren't resolving his problem if our flier is 4" up (or 6" up, etc.). He can't get everyone in that area unless they're clustered in all three dimensions.

 

Originally posted by Gary

That's only if they know that they're going to be facing him. And some of the defenses are going to be pretty hard to come by and/or difficult to use. I can just see the martial artist and energy projector patrolling the city in a bulky radiation suit just in case NND Lad happens to drop by.

 

And if it's obvious that the entire party has been outfitted with force field belts or radiation suits, then NND boy simply uses a standard attack instead of the NND. It cost him nothing, and forced his foes to do stuff they normally wouldn't.

 

No superscientists in your world, I take it. Most experienced characters have some contacts. Some have gadget pools. Some IIF Rad Shields/Force fields would not be impossible to obtain.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Here, the question becomes whether spreading should cost a damage class of the advantaged power (as it currently does) or a damage class of the base power (ie 1d6 EB no matter how many advantages are piled upon it). This would reduce somewhat the value of advantages if one spreads attacks a lot.

 

I'm not advocating this change. I am saying don't leap to the conclusion that Rapid Fire is the problem, but look at all the components which lead to the perceived problem.

 

For me, Rapid fire and Sweep may be best left to Heroic campaigns, much like hit locations, where the OCV and DCV spread is generally narrower. But I'll wait until seeing it in action before deciding.

 

It's definitely less abusive in Heroic campaigns, where most people only have "standard" attacks, and CVs usually aren't ridiculous.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Sure can. But this doesn't make the flier any closer to the other characters, or broaden your area of effect, so they really aren't resolving his problem if our flier is 4" up (or 6" up, etc.). He can't get everyone in that area unless they're clustered in all three dimensions.

 

But he can fire off the NND at a much farther distance without any range penalties. This frees him from any worry about hitting his own teammates and makes ambushes much easier.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

No superscientists in your world, I take it. Most experienced characters have some contacts. Some have gadget pools. Some IIF Rad Shields/Force fields would not be impossible to obtain.

 

Well for one thing, most gadgeteers have at least -1/2 in limitations, so IIF is out. Secondly, the Force Field will be visible unless bought with invisible power effects. And far fewer scientists or mages should be able to create invisible force fields compared to regular force fields. Finally, it's a game philosophy thing. I dislike players routinely buying up special defenses in response to attacks. When a villain flashes a team, I don't want all of them to suddenly purchase OIF Sunglasses. If players get drained, I don't want them to suddenly purchase power defense. YMMV, but it gets annoying if all the PCs have all the special defenses after a few gaming sessions.

[Farkling]

Well for one thing, most gadgeteers have at least -1/2 in limitations, so IIF is out. Secondly, the Force Field will be visible unless bought with invisible power effects. And far fewer scientists or mages should be able to create invisible force fields compared to regular force fields. Finally, it's a game philosophy thing. I dislike players routinely buying up special defenses in response to attacks. When a villain flashes a team, I don't want all of them to suddenly purchase OIF Sunglasses. If players get drained, I don't want them to suddenly purchase power defense. YMMV, but it gets annoying if all the PCs have all the special defenses after a few gaming sessions.

 

WHIF (That's WHEN and IF) the Cyborg gets a gadget pool, his minimum limitation will be IIF for internal hardshielded systems. And it will probably be swapped for the existing multipower framework as part of character evolution.

 

Nope, the fields will be visible. Cory could order 2-4 of them from Tom if she was willing to return the other stuff she has (so he can analyze it).

 

I have never minded characters purchasing the OIF Sunglasses. No sillier than Avenger Helmet Radios, Quinjets, Fantastic Four "unstable molecule" costumes, Dick Tracy radio watches, Superman signal watches, Bat mikes, Bat Belts, Bat Cycles, rings to keep liquiform expanding costumes in, radio scramblers, spidey tracer trackers, Doc Savage's machine pistols or microgrenades (that ALL of them carried), phony federal ID's, powere suppressors or a thousand other things. These are comic books.

The sunglasses are far more believable than "spontaneously" acquiring flash defense. If the players are foolish enough to believe that buying the defenses against the villains attacks will save them, well, I have a whole book full of powers and a whole head full of character concepts. Not to mention the villains can follow the same patterns in cases that are analyzable to them.

This is the big problem my characters have with GENOCIDE, those guys watch and make notes on EVERYTHING they see a metahuman do, some agent gets away with intact recordingsm and they come prepared for tactics and powers seen. Some NND's would of course be an exception to this. They are developing Mental Darkness screens (Psi static generators), Mental Invisibility screens (Psi-echo field), Psi Refractos (Mental Damage Shield, Ego Attack), Null Fields (Nothing here, Mental Illusions - Mental Senses Only), Psi-Shields (Mental Defense). These are all ideas that they are funding and breeding in response to Wheels playing havoc with their computer systems, banking records, and stock holdings/distribution. As a matter of fact, they are doing most transactions on paper now, in response to his actions.

In Etremis Example:: "Hey, GL, they were expecting you, they all wore yellow bodysuits over their costumes"

 

If it's OIF, it can be broken or taken away by thoughtful supervillains. Cory has learned to grab obvious foci, whether inaccessible or not. her STR can make spare parts out of most small ones. Oh, and though a force field might protect "add-ons" from beam impacts and knockback damage, very few other defense forms will. The sunglasses will require "integration" into the character's costuming.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

It's definitely less abusive in Heroic campaigns, where most people only have "standard" attacks, and CVs usually aren't ridiculous.

 

It's the CV issue that does it for me. When you have Martial Artists who can reach a 17+ OCV, and Bricks with a 5-7 DCV, the MA can pretty much be assured of 3-5 shots hitting if he's alowed (or getting that head shot every time). When CV's range from, say, 4 to 8, this issue shrinks down. As well, ,lower AP attacks = more damage lost if you spread to compensate.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Well for one thing, most gadgeteers have at least -1/2 in limitations, so IIF is out. Secondly, the Force Field will be visible unless bought with invisible power effects. And far fewer scientists or mages should be able to create invisible force fields compared to regular force fields.

 

ummmm...Batman had an invisible force field pretty early in his career. (Man of Steel #4, IIRC) No DEF, but a force field nevertheless.

 

Originally posted by Gary

Finally, it's a game philosophy thing. I dislike players routinely buying up special defenses in response to attacks. When a villain flashes a team, I don't want all of them to suddenly purchase OIF Sunglasses. If players get drained, I don't want them to suddenly purchase power defense. YMMV, but it gets annoying if all the PCs have all the special defenses after a few gaming sessions.

 

Yes and no. Do they have these permanently, or have they borrowed them from contacts who expect them back? Maybe they're experimental (burnout rolls?) so they can't rely on them always being effective. But you can bet if a GM has a "flash heavy" campaign, the players are going to come up with reasons why their characters are buying flash DEF. And a good one is "I've been taken out of the fight three times running thanks to flashes. Of course my character is going to look for ways to mitigate that effect."

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

It's the CV issue that does it for me. When you have Martial Artists who can reach a 17+ OCV, and Bricks with a 5-7 DCV, the MA can pretty much be assured of 3-5 shots hitting if he's alowed (or getting that head shot every time). When CV's range from, say, 4 to 8, this issue shrinks down. As well, ,lower AP attacks = more damage lost if you spread to compensate.

 

Agreed.

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

ummmm...Batman had an invisible force field pretty early in his career. (Man of Steel #4, IIRC) No DEF, but a force field nevertheless.

 

I can't think of anyone else who does. In fact, the only other invisible force field that I can think of is the Invisible Woman's.

 

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Yes and no. Do they have these permanently, or have they borrowed them from contacts who expect them back? Maybe they're experimental (burnout rolls?) so they can't rely on them always being effective. But you can bet if a GM has a "flash heavy" campaign, the players are going to come up with reasons why their characters are buying flash DEF. And a good one is "I've been taken out of the fight three times running thanks to flashes. Of course my character is going to look for ways to mitigate that effect."

 

Only if you overuse the flash. If you use it sparingly and with only a few villains, I've found that most players are pretty reasonable. The same with most nonstandard attacks. As long as you, as GM, don't have your villains purchase all the defenses to the PC's attacks either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

I can't think of anyone else who does. In fact, the only other invisible force field that I can think of is the Invisible Woman's.

 

Look harder. Off the top of my head (and not one shots like Batman's), Iron Man had a polarizijng field that "hardened" his armor from a cloth-like consistency for many years. SOunds like a field of force to me. More conventional, in his very first appearance the Juggernaut bragged of his force field which further defended him from harm (he had to - it was invisible so the reader otherwise would have missed it!). For that matter, Unus the Untouchable had an ivisible force field, but completely wastes it by bragging about it.

 

Consider also characters who evidence a mysterious invulnerability to normally devestating attacks (for example, those characters Rogue cannot affect). It;'s been established Magneto can block her with a force field (even one which can't be seen - there's another one!), so may of those others may have invisible force fields which have not been "formally disclosed".

 

See, the problem with something being invisible is that you can't see it!