Monster/Race: Orc

[Hierax]

I'd like to improve my write-up for Orcs, anyone have any suggestions or would like to share their own versions of this most basic for comparison?

 

Orc:

    http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/grey/monster/orc.pdf

 

Orc (Standard 50 Point Warrior)

 

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
8	DEX	-6
15	CON	10
11	BODY	2
8	INT	-2
8	EGO	-4
8	PRE	-2
8	COM	-1
4	PD	1
4	ED	1
2	SPD	2
6	REC	0
30	END	0
29	STUN	2

6" RUN02" SWIM03" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 8

 

Cost	Power	END
1	Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (1 PD/1 ED)
6	Fangs and Claws: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (0 1/2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Reduced Penetration (-1/4)
7	Infravision 60': Infrared Perception (Sight Group), +2 to PER Roll
2	Snout: +2 PER with Normal Smell
4	Tireless: Naked Modifier - on 15 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (4 Active Points)
8	Durable: Life Support (Immunity Viral Infections; Immunity Bacterial Infections; Immunity Zootoxins; Immunity Phytotoxins; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) (17 Active Points); Limited Power (Only 50% Effect From) (-1)
1	Deprived: Life Support (Custom Adder; Eating Character only has to eat twice per week; Sleeping Character only has to sleep 16 hours per week)

Powers Cost: 29

 

Cost	Skill
5	+1 with HTH Combat
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
2	PS: Warrior 11-
0	Language (fluent conversation) (2 Active Points)
2	Survival 11-

Skills Cost: 13

 

Total Character Cost: 50

 

Val	Disadvantages
20	Normal Orcish Characteristic Maxima
5	Distinctive Features - Orc: (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
5	Psychological Limitation - Full of Hate (typically for Elves and Other Rival Orc Tribes): (Uncommon, Moderate)
5	Physical Limitation - Short Lived (~40 years): (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
15	Susceptibility to Sunlight or Very Bright Light: , -1 to All Rolls Instant (Very Common)

Disadvantage Points: 50

 

Base Points: 0

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[Outsider]

This would be one of the big, fighting breeds, I presume?

 

Also, I dont know that they should get the distinctive feature unless they are living in a non-orcish society that practices minor discrimination against its orcish members. If the orc in question is living in his own society, being an orc isnt all that distinctive, really. A broad professional rivalry with other orc bands and/or intellegent races might fit the bill better. (still 5 points, at least in 4th Ed rules)

[Killer Shrike]

Here's what my Orc Package looks like:

[Hierax]

Orc (Hieraxian) Draft 2

 

Thanks guys! I've incorporated your above ideas with my own and revised the write-up.

 

Outsider, this is a standard Orcish Warrior (conversion of the xD&D 1 Hit-Dice Monster); in a way, an Orc is a "big fighting breed" of Goblin or a slightly weaker version of a Hobgoblin, roughly comparable to a 1st level Human Fighter, better than a standard 0-Level Human Fighter Man-at-Arms.

 

Orc (Hieraxian) Draft 2:

 

Orc (50 Point Warrior)

 

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
8	DEX	-6
15	CON	10
11	BODY	2
6	INT	-4
6	EGO	-8
6/15	PRE	-4
6	COM	-2
4	PD	1
4	ED	1
2	SPD	2
6	REC	0
30	END	0
29	STUN	2

7" RUN22" SWIM03" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 1

 

Cost	Power	END
1	Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (1 PD/1 ED)
6	Fangs and Claws: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (0 1/2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Reduced Penetration (-1/4)
5	Infravision 60': Infrared Perception (Sight Group)
7	Snout: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) +2 PER with Normal Smell (Real Cost: 2) plus Tracking with Normal Smell (Real Cost: 5)
4	Tireless: Naked Modifier - on 15 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (4 Active Points)
8	Durable: Life Support (Immunity Viral Infections; Immunity Bacterial Infections; Immunity Zootoxins; Immunity Phytotoxins; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) (17 Active Points); Limited Power (Only 50% Effect From) (-1)
1	Deprived: Life Support (Custom Adder; Eating Character only has to eat twice per week; Sleeping Character only has to sleep 16 hours per week)
4	Intimidating: +9 PRE (9 Active Points); Limited Power (Only for PRE Attacks) (-1)

Powers Cost: 36

 

Cost	Skill
5	+1 with HTH Combat
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
2	PS: Warrior 11-
0	Language (fluent conversation) (2 Active Points)
2	Survival 10-

Skills Cost: 13

 

Total Character Cost: 50

 

Val	Disadvantages
20	Normal Orcish Characteristic Maxima
5	Distinctive Features - Orc: (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
5	Psychological Limitation - Hated of Elves: (Uncommon, Moderate)
5	Physical Limitation - Short Lived (~40 years): (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
5	Rivalry: Professional (Other Orcs and Tribes of Orcs; Rival is As Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)
10	Susceptibility to Sunlight or Very Bright Light: , -1 to All Rolls Instant (Common)

Disadvantage Points: 50

 

Base Points: 0

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

Ed, two things about your version immediately come to mind:

 

1) I wouldn't want to give Orcs a pure +5 PRE because it also gives them better PRE-based Skill rolls than a human! I agree with them getting a better PRE attack, just not being more persuasive in less subtle ways -- which is why I limited it.

 

2) Isn't 4 rDEF a bit much? 2 rDEF would be about as much as thick leather armor, but 4 rDEF is about as much as brigandine! I agree they should have tougher skin than humans, and even 1/2 Orcs should too, but you might want to go with +2 for full-blooded orcs and +1 for 1/2 orcs. Just my opinion or interpretation of Orcs though, YMMV.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Correct my if I'm mistaken, but if Normal Characteristic Maxima is the norm in a campaign (as it is in most fantays HERo camapigns), it isn;t worth points to the character, is it? So why give the orc 20 free disad points for NCM when PCs don;t get those free points?

 

You could certainly base the orc on 25+25 (competent Normal) and have the same basic effect.

[Hierax]

NCM, Base Points

 

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

Correct my if I'm mistaken, but if Normal Characteristic Maxima is the norm in a campaign (as it is in most fantays HERo camapigns), it isn;t worth points to the character, is it? So why give the orc 20 free disad points for NCM when PCs don;t get those free points?

 

You could certainly base the orc on 25+25 (competent Normal) and have the same basic effect.

 

That's a good point. There's a few reasons why I do it like this.

 

In a way, I see Fantasy Hero as more Heroic than Superheroic in terms of NCM being appropriate.

 

I like using NCM for races to set them at different amounts and encourage the difference between the races.

 

Another thing is that the "Base points" don't really give any "Disadvantage" but the NCM does give something of a disadvantage; thus Base Points are more "Free" than the NCM Disadvantage (to my mind).

 

So, I guess, in general, I prefer to use a lot of Disadvantages for write-ups and keep the Base Points to a minimum and use Experience only for an individual character's experience.

 

Hope that helps explain why.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: NCM, Base Points

 

Originally posted by Hierax

That's a good point. There's a few reasons why I do it like this.

 

In a way, I see Fantasy Hero as more Heroic than Superheroic in terms of NCM being appropriate.

 

I like using NCM for races to set them at different amounts and encourage the difference between the races.

 

Another thing is that the "Base points" don't really give any "Disadvantage" but the NCM does give something of a disadvantage; thus Base Points are more "Free" than the NCM Disadvantage (to my mind).

 

So, I guess, in general, I prefer to use a lot of Disadvantages for write-ups and keep the Base Points to a minimum and use Experience only for an individual character's experience.

 

Hope that helps explain why.

 

The point is taken, but I still think it is aginst the spirit of the rules for Normal campaigns. Just because the maxima is different does not make NCM a legal disad in this case IMHO but YMMV. AYTOATA?

 

A better way to do it might be to attach a Social Disad to reflect the fact that in on-Ocish lands just being an Orc often carries the death penalty. In other words, if you;re an orc by yourself who isn;t in the company of other orcs who can prtect you, anyone you meet can slay you on the spot with no legal repurcussions. Nasty? true. But so is the life of an Orc.

 

I can easily imagine a fantasy world whose religion is based around reincarnation stating that the sould of wicked men, isntead of going to Hell, are reincarnated as Orcs....

[Hierax]

Distinctive Features and Social Disadvantage

 

I guess I see part of the "Distinctive Features" Disadvantage as a form of "Social Disadvantage" i.e., racism that is based on a distinctive appearance.

[Killer Shrike]

I run High Fantasy using Superheroic Rules, and apply NCM as part of the way I do Race Packages.

 

If a GM wants to use the material and does not wish to do it like this, they can very simply remove NCM and increase the cost of the Package by 20 Points.

[Guest taxboy4]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Here's what my Orc Package looks like:

 

Cripes, your Orcs are tough...

 

Actually thats what i like with FH vs D&D is in my campaighn there is an ongoing encounters with Goblins, 6-8 Goblins actually provide my group with a challenge , 6-8 Goblins would be fodder for any 3rd level + group in Ad&d

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by taxboy4

Cripes, your Orcs are tough...

 

Actually thats what i like with FH vs D&D is in my campaighn there is an ongoing encounters with Goblins, 6-8 Goblins actually provide my group with a challenge , 6-8 Goblins would be fodder for any 3rd level + group in Ad&d

I prefer a more games worskshop style of Orc; big brutish thugs that are hard to kill.

 

As a general rule, I find making things a tad tougher in the HERO System works better as you can use fewer opponents to challenge a party than in D&D3e, which is a good things as there is more to keep track of in the HERO System.

 

Although, there was the time that the PC group took on a fortress full of around 300 well-fortified Orcs and some other sundry creatures in the HERO System........

[Hierax]

Orc Update

 

I've taken Ed's "Killer" Orcs under closer consideration and upped the rDEF from 1 to 2 and increased the PD/ED by +1/+1 to +2/+2, this will make them a bit tougher to kill and give them twice the toughness of Half-Orcs. Only half as tough as his but a fair compromise I think.

[Hierax]

Orcs (Hieraxian) 3rd DraftHere's my 3rd Draft write-up for Orcs:Orc (Standard 50 Point Warrior)

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
8	DEX	-6
15	CON	10
11	BODY	2
6	INT	-4
6	EGO	-8
6/16	PRE	-4
6	COM	-2
5	PD	2
5	ED	2
2	SPD	2
6	REC	0
30	END	0
29	STUN	2

6" RUN02" SWIM03" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 1

Cost	Power	END
2	Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (2 PD/2 ED)
6	Fangs and Claws: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (0 1/2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Reduced Penetration (-1/4)
5	Infravision 60': Infrared Perception (Sight Group)
7	Snout: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) +2 PER with Normal Smell (Real Cost: 2) plus Tracking with Normal Smell (Real Cost: 5)
2	Tireless: Naked Modifier - on 10 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (2 Active Points)
8	Durable: Life Support (Immunity Viral Infections; Immunity Bacterial Infections; Immunity Zootoxins; Immunity Phytotoxins; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) (17 Active Points); Limited Power (Only 50% Effect From) (-1)
1	Deprived: Life Support (Custom Adder; Eating Character only has to eat twice per week; Sleeping Character only has to sleep 16 hours per week)
5	Intimidating: +10 PRE (10 Active Points); Limited Power (Only for PRE Attacks) (-1)

Powers Cost: 36

Cost	Skill
5	+1 with HTH Combat
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
2	PS: Warrior 11-
0	Language (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2	Survival 10-

Skills Cost: 13

Val	Disadvantages
20	Normal Characteristic Maxima - Half-Orc
5	Distinctive Features - Orc: (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
5	Psychological Limitation - Hated of Elves: (Uncommon, Moderate)
5	Physical Limitation - Short Lived (~40 years): (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
5	Rivalry: Professional (Other Orcs and Tribes of Orcs; Rival is As Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)
10	Susceptibility to Sunlight or Very Bright Light: , -1 to All Rolls Instant (Common)

Disadvantage Points: 50

Base Points: 0Experience Required: 0Total Experience Available: 0Experience Unspent: 0Total Character Cost: 50

Height: 2.00 m	Hair: Black
Weight: 100.00 kg	Eyes: Red

Appearance: Orcs are human-sized (~6' tall) but more are more bestial and disgusting, both in appearance and behaviour.Personality: Only the Strong Can Survive.

Survival of the Fittest and Most Brutally Ruthless.

Might Makes Right.

Hatred of Smaller and Weaker; Fear of Bigger and Stronger.

Tend strongly towards impulsive, short-term/instant gratification over long-range planning.

Strong kill or enslave the weak.

Quote:Background: Orcs are ugly human-like creatures who look like a combination of animal (typically a pig/boar) and man. Orcs are nocturnal and prefer to live underground. When fighting in daylight, they must subtract 1 from their to hit rolls. They have bad tempers and do not like other living things; they will often kill something for their own amusement. They are afraid of anything which looks larger and stronger than they are but may be forced to fight by their leaders.

 

xDnD orcs are somewhat of a mix of the traits of Tolkien's Goblins, Orcs, and Uruk-Hai along with that of generic pig/boar-men or ape-men.

 

Strong, Tough, and Stupid.

Powers/Tactics: Campaign Use: Archtypical sub-human humanoid, often used when you need something nasty that is about human-sized but not quite human.

 

If you need something tougher try a Hobgoblin, Gnoll, or even a Bugbear; if you need something weaker try a Goblin or Kobold.

 

Sources:

- B.40, RC.199; 1e-MM.76, 1e-PHB.17; 2e-MM.281-282; 3e-MM.146-147, 3e-PHB.108-109; HM-HoB-v6.32-44, HoBv7.60-61, HM-PHB-35-36.

- Roger E. Moore "The Half-Orc Point of View" and "The Gods of the Orcs" Dragon Magazine #62 (June 1982) Reprinted in Best of Dragon Magazine #3 (July 1983) p.28ff.

- Tolkienesque Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Uruk-Hai: tCGtME.304-306, 404-405; RM/MERP: LoME-V3.84ff.

- Rolemaster Orcs: Races + Cultures: Underground Races (Goblins, Hobgoblins, Common Orcs, Greater Orcs, and Grey Orcs) (1996)

- Hero: MMM.77-78

For the Hero Designer folk amongs you (like Eosin) here's a .hdt file:

[Hierax]

Half-Orc (Hieraxian) First DraftHere's my First Draft write-up of a Half-Orc:Half-Orc (Standard 25 Point Warrior)

Val	Char	Cost
13	STR	3
9	DEX	-3
13	CON	6
10	BODY	0
8	INT	-2
8	EGO	-4
8/13	PRE	-2
8	COM	-1
4	PD	1
4	ED	1
2	SPD	1
6	REC	0
26	END	0
25	STUN	1

6" RUN02" SWIM02 1/2" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 1

Cost	Power	END
1	Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (1 PD/1 ED)
4	Infravision 60': Infrared Perception -1 to PER Roll in this spectrum (Sight Group), Custom Adder
1	Snout: +1 PER with Normal Smell
1	Tireless: Naked Modifier - on 5 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (1 Active Points)
6	Durable: Life Support (Immunity Viral Infections; Immunity Bacterial Infections; Immunity Zootoxins; Immunity Phytotoxins; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) (17 Active Points); Limited Power (Only 75% Effect From) (-2)
1	Deprived: Life Support (Custom Adder; Eating Character only has to eat four times per week (60% of Human); Sleeping Character only has to sleep 32 hours per week (60% of Human))
2	Intimidating: +5 PRE (5 Active Points); Limited Power (Only for PRE Attacks) (-1)

Powers Cost: 16

Cost	Skill
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
2	PS: Warrior 11-
0	Language: Orc (Euroz) or Common (Aerdian or Other Human Trade Tongue) (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2	Survival 11-

Skills Cost: 8

Val	Disadvantages
20	Normal Characteristic Maxima - Half-Orc
0	Distinctive Features - Half-Orc: (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
5	Physical Limitation - Short Lived (~40 years): (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)

Disadvantage Points: 25

Base Points: 0Experience Required: 0Total Experience Available: 0Experience Unspent: 0Total Character Cost: 25

Height: 2.00 m	Hair: Black
Weight: 100.00 kg	Eyes: Red

Appearance: Half-Orcs are human-sized (~6' tall) but as a race they tend to be slightly more bestial and disgusting, both in appearance and behaviour than pure-blooded humans.Personality: Almost as varied as humans but as a race they tend towards orcish attitudes.Quote:Background: Half-Orcs are half-orc and half-human crossbreeds. In a way, half-orcs take the best of both parentages -- they stronger and tougher than a human, and are smarter and more self-disciplined than an orc.Powers/Tactics: Almost as varied as humans but as a race they tend to prefer violence up close and personal as possible.Campaign Use: Archtypical sub-human semi-humanoid, often used when you need something nasty that is about human-sized but not quite human. Often used as an NPC or instead of just a "monster". By far the most common non-human/non-demi-human PC race.

 

Sources:

- B.40, RC.199; 1e-MM.76, 1e-PHB.17; 2e-MM.281-282; 3e-MM.146-147, 3e-PHB.18-19; HM-HoB-v6.32-44, HoBv7.60-61, HM-PHB-35-36.

- Roger E. Moore "The Half-Orc Point of View" and "The Gods of the Orcs" Dragon Magazine #62 (June 1982) Reprinted in Best of Dragon Magazine #3 (July 1983) p.28ff.

- Tolkienesque Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Uruk-Hai: tCGtME.304-306, 404-405; RM/MERP: LoME-V3.84ff.

- Rolemaster Orcs: Races + Cultures: Underground Races (Goblins, Hobgoblins, Common Orcs, Greater Orcs, and Grey Orcs) (1996)

- Hero: MMM.77-78

For the Hero Designer folk amongs you here's a .hdt file:

[Guest taxboy4]

These Orcs would still give Gary Gygax a heart attack!

 

I like the ideas of Orcs being very physically tough as they do kill each other. I like using Goblins as they are smaller and tend to be a bit smarter but more craven.

 

These Orcs above - if you had 7 of them, they would be actually damn tough for any party to kill without sustaining a lot of damage.

 

I find the Mages in Fantasy Hero are way les powerful than say D&d wizards at 7th level plus...

 

Easy access to a fire ball spell makes a great Orc Killer.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Half-Orc (Hieraxian) First Draft

Originally posted by Hierax Here's my First Draft write-up of a Half-Orc:Half-Orc (Standard 25 Point Warrior)

Val	Char	Cost
13	STR	3
9	DEX	-3
13	CON	6
10	BODY	0
8	INT	-2
8	EGO	-4
8/13	PRE	-2
8	COM	-1
4	PD	1
4	ED	1
2	SPD	1
6	REC	0
26	END	0
25	STUN	1

6" RUN02" SWIM02 1/2" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 1

Cost	Power	END
1	Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (1 PD/1 ED)
4	Infravision 60': Infrared Perception -1 to PER Roll in this spectrum (Sight Group), Custom Adder
1	Snout: +1 PER with Normal Smell
1	Tireless: Naked Modifier - on 5 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (1 Active Points)
6	Durable: Life Support (Immunity Viral Infections; Immunity Bacterial Infections; Immunity Zootoxins; Immunity Phytotoxins; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) (17 Active Points); Limited Power (Only 75% Effect From) (-2)
1	Deprived: Life Support (Custom Adder; Eating Character only has to eat four times per week (60% of Human); Sleeping Character only has to sleep 32 hours per week (60% of Human))
2	Intimidating: +5 PRE (5 Active Points); Limited Power (Only for PRE Attacks) (-1)

Powers Cost: 16

Cost	Skill
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
2	PS: Warrior 11-
0	Language: Orc (Euroz) or Common (Aerdian or Other Human Trade Tongue) (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2	Survival 11-

Skills Cost: 8

Val	Disadvantages
20	Normal Characteristic Maxima - Half-Orc
0	Distinctive Features - Half-Orc: (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
5	Physical Limitation - Short Lived (~40 years): (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)

Disadvantage Points: 25

Base Points: 0Experience Required: 0Total Experience Available: 0Experience Unspent: 0Total Character Cost: 25

Height: 2.00 m	Hair: Black
Weight: 100.00 kg	Eyes: Red

Appearance: Half-Orcs are human-sized (~6' tall) but as a race they tend to be slightly more bestial and disgusting, both in appearance and behaviour than pure-blooded humans.Personality: Almost as varied as humans but as a race they tend towards orcish attitudes.Quote:Background: Half-Orcs are half-orc and half-human crossbreeds. In a way, half-orcs take the best of both parentages -- they stronger and tougher than a human, and are smarter and more self-disciplined than an orc.Powers/Tactics: Almost as varied as humans but as a race they tend to prefer violence up close and personal as possible.Campaign Use: Archtypical sub-human semi-humanoid, often used when you need something nasty that is about human-sized but not quite human. Often used as an NPC or instead of just a "monster". By far the most common non-human/non-demi-human PC race.

 

Sources:

- B.40, RC.199; 1e-MM.76, 1e-PHB.17; 2e-MM.281-282; 3e-MM.146-147, 3e-PHB.18-19; HM-HoB-v6.32-44, HoBv7.60-61, HM-PHB-35-36.

- Roger E. Moore "The Half-Orc Point of View" and "The Gods of the Orcs" Dragon Magazine #62 (June 1982) Reprinted in Best of Dragon Magazine #3 (July 1983) p.28ff.

- Tolkienesque Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Uruk-Hai: tCGtME.304-306, 404-405; RM/MERP: LoME-V3.84ff.

- Rolemaster Orcs: Races + Cultures: Underground Races (Goblins, Hobgoblins, Common Orcs, Greater Orcs, and Grey Orcs) (1996)

- Hero: MMM.77-78

For the Hero Designer folk amongs you here's a .hdt file:

@m tall is hugely tall for medival times - humans tended to be 5'6"to 5'8"- 2m tall is about 6'3"

[Hierax]

Yeah, Orcs are bigger, stronger, and tougher than the average run-of-the-mill humans 6' to 6'3" seems reasonable to me for Orcs, with Hobgoblins being about 6'6".

 

As an aside, after playing xDnD for many years I got into MERP and Rolemaster and I gained new respect for what Orcs and their kin could do and I've tried to make my write-ups sort of a hybrid of the two styles.

 

So I agree, Goblins would definately get far more general use as sword-fodder since they are indeed smaller and weaker. The trick is to use the right humanoid to challenge the Player's Characters current abilities, that's why I like having the wide variety of humanoids with a range of fighting abilities.

 

FWIW, I've just posted a write-up for Goblins to the boards so you can compare all the various "Goblinoid" races -- Goblins, (Half-Orcs), Orcs, Hobgoblins, and Bugbears.

 

Goblins (1-1 Hit Dice, 25 Points):

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12485&highlight=Monster%2FRace

 

Orcs (1 Hit Dice, 50 Points):

see above

 

Hobgoblins (1+1 Hit Dice, 75 Points):

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12302&highlight=Monster%2FRace

 

Bugbears (3+1 Hit Dice, 150 Points):

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12291&highlight=Monster%2FRace

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by taxboy4

These Orcs would still give Gary Gygax a heart attack!

Not necessarily; as the original hack & slash guru Gary was nothing if not practical when it came to challenging his PC's. His error IMO lay not in implementation, but conceptualization. Since D&D wasnt actually planned so much as it was organically grown while it was being played, it had a number of logical inconsistencies that become more apparant the longer you play it and the further the PCs advance in level.

 

The progression of PCs in Power was never really thought out ahead of time, and in reality there were really only 10 steps of power, not 20 -- Non-Level thru 9th level. Whenever the upper limit was being neared by Gary's play group, he'd just tack some more levels on to the classes, but basically only Spellcasters continued to get much, probably cuz "Spellz R Kewl", and because Gary always seemed to have a soft spot for wizards. Every wondered why all but one of the famous characters of the "old school crew" were wizards? Of all the big names, only Robilar was a non-wizard. Tenser, Mordenkainen, Bigby, etc, all the rest of them wizards. No mystery there, wizards were no doubt quite attractive to those early players that realized if they could just survive to 3rd level or so, the smart money would shift to them.

 

Back to the matter at hand, this pattern of not thinking things thru to their logical conclusion showed up in the monster concept of D&D as well. As a reality of Role Playing Games, every RPG setting needs a type of fodder creature or three, whether that be Nazis, goons, or sec-bots, and in old school D&D the Orc filled that niche (thanks in no small part to their being the prominent fodder creature of the heavily mined Tolkein works no doubt). Thanx to the short sighted and strangely illogical dichotomy of ascending level based PCs but static block monsters, Orcs quickly ceased to be threats to advancing PCs and first got employed in larger numbers and then gave way to other "fodder" creatures as PCs ascended in Power. This was a flaw of the game system, and created an environment in which multiple Monster Manual type products with hundreds of different types of "monsters", with many types of creatures overlapping one another were necessary to stock a world with things to kill so that at any given time in the career of an aspiring gang of PC hack-n-slashers there was some kind of creature that was roughly balanced to their power level for them to kill (and take their stuff of course -- thats what old school D&D was basically about).

 

D&D 3e provided a means to fix this, with the ability for "monsters" to have classes, with either their own race acting as "levels" via greater Hit Dice, or actual classes such as PCs have.

 

This capability, revolutionary to D&D, was nothing new to old school HEROs players (and presumably others using generic point-based systems to do Fantasy). Since the mentality of pigeon-holing creatures into a set, imutable stat block was endemic of the class-and-level structure and usage of two entirely different mechanics of stating PCs and non PCs of old school D&D in the first place, other (better) systems lacking these rules constructs don't suffer from these conceptual limitations unless the people using those systems are so well trained by D&D that they bring these conceptual limitations with them.

 

In the HERO System your power level isnt determined by your race; its determined by your point count. It's not a question of whether the opponent you face is an Orc or an ambulatory chia pet; what really matters is how many points they are. A hardened Orc warrior can be as deadly as an human or "demi-human" warrior in the HERO System -- all they need is points.

 

In my old AD&D-> HERO System Conversion I copped to this real fast, and made Orcs (and numerous other "monsters") at widely different point levels. While the rank and file Orcs were 75 points (PC's started at 125), it scaled upwards from there, and if encountering a group of Orcs you might be in for quite a surprise if you assumed they were nothing but chump fodder.

 

The great advantage to this is any potential type of foe can challenge any group of PCs at any power level, greatly reducing the need for endless variations of "monster" types, decreasing the strain on suspension of disbelief required to explain a collection of creatures that obviously should be competing with one another for the same ecological niche (which would result in only the few strongest per niche surviving), and increasing the scalability of game play -- no longer would a monster type that was a threat when an adventure began be too weak to challenge the party by the middle to end of the adventure (an oddity of old school D&D that often required a threat shift in mid stream, or a more powerful kind of creature that, of course, had been controlling the schmuck creatures the whole time).

 

Also, this variability helps to subtly encourage Role Playing IMO. Even the most well meaning group of would-be RPers would have a hard time role playing out a situation with a bunch of Orcs if, in the back of the their little metagamer minds, they know damn well that their characters can mow thru Orcs because they are all the same -- if you can beat one, you can beat them all. If the Orcs (or whatever) are scalable however....there's always the shadow of doubt on the outcome of a violent altercation that quite naturally encourages the PCs to handle the situation some other way. Even if it does nothing but encourage the party to employ some smart tactics rather than the typical head-on collision, it has improved the quality of game play, IMO.

 

Originally posted by taxboy4

I like the ideas of Orcs being very physically tough as they do kill each other. I like using Goblins as they are smaller and tend to be a bit smarter but more craven.

 

These Orcs above - if you had 7 of them, they would be actually damn tough for any party to kill without sustaining a lot of damage.

Depends on the party. It's always on the GM to accurately gauge the partys strength and to offer only as much of a challenge as suits the needs of the story or adventure.

 

All that aside however, yes it should take far fewer opponents to provide a challenge to a group of PCs. This is a good thing on many levels IMO, not the least of which is versimilitude. In the old days it might take a force of 50 Orcs to even mildly threaten a group of four decent PCs. If you think about that for a moment, you realize that for 50 mature Orc warriors to exist, they must have some infrastructure involved, such as females and children, plus it takes a certain amount of food to sustain that many warriors -- are they getting it all from raiding? And if so, by raiding whom? Or do they grow some of their own crops? If so where? Or do they hunt for their main staple, and if so what and where do they hunt?

 

Just a single force a chumps raises a host of logical questions which can either be ignored (making it more difficult to manage suspension of disbelief, or leading to situations where well-meaning players try to followup on logical patterns only to be stopped short be GM disinterest), or else factored into the adventure design (which can detract from the focus of the adventure, expands the scope of work in adventure desing, and which may all go to waste if the PCs have no interest in pursuing the matter).

 

However, if it only takes 8 or 15 Orcs (or other opponent) to threaten the group, thats a much more managable number, and which places far fewer logistical demads against the skein of the adventure.

 

Originally posted by taxboy4

I find the Mages in Fantasy Hero are way les powerful than say D&d wizards at 7th level plus...

 

Easy access to a fire ball spell makes a great Orc Killer.

 

This depends on the Magic System in use. The Default Magic System I use is set up to be similar to the D&D style of Vancian Magic, for example, but due to the nature of the HERO System its less lethal than D&D at the same Spell Levels. Under my system a "3rd Level Spell" has 46-60 Active Points, so and 8d6N or 3d6-1K Explosion or a 6d6N or 2d6 Radius would be the norm for a "Fireball" spell; none of those versions would kill an unwounded basic Orc such as I use (though it might stagger them). Other GMs might set their games up differently, but generally things are harder to kill in the HERO System than in D&D by default.

[Guest taxboy4]

WEll what can i say, i totally agree

 

 

Love the idea of scaliable Orcs / Goblins and why not, in the FH world Orcs are "people too"- esp. your point if the players "know"they can kill the Goblins why parley with them.

 

And Top Orc / Goblin Warriors would be very tough critters indeed.

 

I too were exposed to the idea of Orcs as more than 8HP practice dummies when i played MERP and then Rolemaster (a system which I rate but no where as much as FH) .

 

It started me on the track that these "monster"were breathing entities too with emotions and minds etc.

 

As to the logistics of large groups of ords etc, your aree corect, I have a band of 30 (well rather depleted lower than that by the PC's at the moment) Goblins who have a lair nearby with females, oung, even a rudimentry food collection and storage system..

 

..it alays adds more depth to the game if the "monsters" are believable and can be justifed by othe events ..it always provides some interesting morale decisions for the pc's when they discover a no longer guarded lair with only females and cubs...

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by taxboy4

WEll what can i say, i totally agree

 

Oh...well carry on then. You Kiwis are uncommonly bright (based upon the old adage that the true test of another man's intelligence is the degree to which he agrees with you )

[Guest taxboy4]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Oh...well carry on then. You Kiwis are uncommonly bright (based upon the old adage that the true test of another man's intelligence is the degree to which he agrees with you )

 

Well when you are right, you are right...

[Eosin]

Thanks....another great write up.

 

Eosin

[Hierax]

Hieraxian Half-Orc - Second Draft UpdateHere's the second draft write-up for Half-Orcs:    http://www.hierax.com/hero/fantasy/grey/monster/orc-half.pdfI've fixed the PRE problem (as outlined by other recent messages to these boards); added initial "Everyman Skills"; changed Infravision to Nightvision/Darkvision (but with the cost corrected to fix the FRED error); fixed/fleshed out the powers of Life Support Immunities; given more detailed Disadvantages, etc...Orc-Half (Standard 25-Point Warrior)

Val	Char	Cost
13	STR	3
9	DEX	-3
13	CON	6
10	BODY	0
8	INT	-2
8	EGO	-4
13	PRE	3
8	COM	-1
4	PD	1
4	ED	1
2	SPD	1
6	REC	0
26	END	0
25	STUN	1

6" RUN02" SWIM02 1/2" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 6

Cost	Power	END
1	Tough Skin: Damage Resistance (1 PD/1 ED)
1	Darkvision: +2 PER with Normal Sight (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to Counteract Darkness Modifiers (-1/2)
1	Darksight: Sight Group Flash Defense (2 points) (2 Active Points); Limited Power (Only vs. Darkness-based Attacks) (-1)
1	Smell-O-Rama Snout: +1 PER with Normal Smell
1	Stench Guard Snout/Tasteless Tongue: Smell/Taste Group Flash Defense
2	Stamina: Naked Modifier - on 10 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (2 Active Points)
1	Efficient Metabolism: Life Support (Custom Adder; Eating Character only has to eat Twice per week; Sleeping Character only has to sleep 16 hours per week)
1	Thin Air Adapted Lungs: Life Support (Extended Breathing)
2	Disease Resistant: Life Support (Immunity All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents) (10 Active Points); 25% Immunity, Only 75% Effect From, i.e., Reduced Effect by 1/4 (-3)
2	Poison Resistant: Life Support (Immunity All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents) (10 Active Points); 25% Immunity, Only 75% Effect From, i.e., Reduced Effect by 1/4 (-3)
1	Pressure Resistant: Life Support (Safe in High Pressure; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum) (3 Active Points); 25% Immunity, Only 75% Effect From, i.e., Reduced Effect by 1/4 (-3)
1	Temperature Resistant: Life Support (Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat) (4 Active Points); 25% Immunity, Only 75% Effect From, i.e., Reduced Effect by 1/4 (-3)

Powers Cost: 15

Cost	Skill
4	WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
0	Acting 8-
0	Climbing 8-
0	Concealment 8-
0	Conversation 8-
0	Deduction 8-
0	AK: Home Country or Region 8-
0	Language: Orc (Euroz) (completely fluent) (3 Active Points)
0	Language: Common (Aerdian or Other Human Trade Tongue) (completely fluent) (3 Active Points)
0	KS: Mining 8-
0	Paramedics (Healing) 8-
0	Persuasion 8-
0	PS: Warrior (Everyman Skill) (Custom Adder) 11-
0	Shadowing 8-
0	Stealth 8-
0	Survival 8-
0	TF: Custom Adder, Equines
0	KS: Weaponsmithing 8-

Skills Cost: 4

Cost	Equipment	END
0	Insert Equipment or Optional Powers, Skills, etc. here: Custom Power

Equipment costs shown above are for reference only, and are not included in Total Cost.

Val	Disadvantages
0	Base Points
5	Distinctive Features - Half-Orc: Sub-Human looking, snoutish nose, squinting reddish-pinkish irises with small beady black pupils, course black hair, leathery discolored skin. (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
0	Enraged: If don't get what they want, tend to resort to violence (Uncommon), go 8-, recover 14-, Custom Adder
20	Normal Characteristic Maxima - Half-Orc
0	NCM: 23 STR, 18 DEX, 23 CON, 20 BODY, 16 INT, 16 EGO, 23 PRE, 16 COM, 10 PD, 10 ED, 4 SPD, 12 REC, 56 END, 55 STUN (Limit for buying at Normal Cost, x2 Above this up to ACM).
0	ACM (Absolute Characteristic Maxima): 33 STR, 28 DEX, 33 CON, 30 BODY, 26 INT, 26 EGO, 33 PRE, 26 COM, 20 PD, 20 ED, 8 SPD, 24 REC, 112 END, 110 STUN (Absolute Maximum Limit without Magical Enhancement).
0	Hunted: Half-Breed haters (Orc-haters in Human Society, Human-haters in Orc Society) 8- (Less Pow, Mildly Punish)
5	Psychological Limitation: Selfish - tend to do whatever they have to do to get what they want (Uncommon, Moderate)
5	Physical Limitation: Arcane Inhibition - Limited Potential for Learning Wizardly Magic (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
5	Physical Limitation: Achromatopsia (Partial Cone Colorblindness, Can only distinguish Bright Garish Colors and Many Shades of Grey, hard to see fine details) and Photophobia (slight discomfort in bright light, so prefer dim light) (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
5	Physical Limitation: Loud and Hard of Hearing: -1 Hearing PER Rolls (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
5	Physical Limitation - Short Lived (~66-75% of Human Norm; Young 12-15, Mature 16-30, Middle-Aged 31-45, Old 46-60, Venerable 61-80): (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)
0	Reputation: Half-Breed (Filthy orc-blooded bastards in human society, weak human-blooded pansies in orc society), 8- (Known Only To A Small Group)
0	Rivalry: Professional (Anyone who wants what they want; Rival is Less Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)
0	Social Limitation: Half-breed of traditionally enemy races, not fully accepted by either parent race [related to Distinctive Features] (Occasionally, Minor, Not Limiting In Some Cultures)
0	Susceptibility: Affected by both Anti-Orc and Anti-Human Attacks/Magics but only at Half-Power (Uncommon)
5	Vulnerability: Light-Based Flashes vs. Sight (Uncommon)

Disadvantage Points: 55

Base Points: 0Experience Required: 0Total Experience Available: 0Experience Unspent: 0Total Character Cost: 25

Height: 1.84 m	Hair: Black
Weight: 100.00 kg	Eyes: Redish with Black Pupils

Appearance: Half-Orcs are human-sized (~6' tall) but as a race they tend to be slightly more bestial and disgusting, both in appearance and behaviour than pure-blooded humans. Reddish eyes with black pupils.Personality: Almost as varied as humans but as a race they tend towards orcish attitudes. Half-Orcs human blood tempers their orcish heritage but it is still there and, unsurprisingly, creates orc-like tendencies among the half-breeds. Social upbringing will largely determine if the orcish or human tendencies come to the fore, there is always variation amongst individuals but the general tendencies need to be clear to make the race have a distinct flavour.

 

Whatever allows you to defeat your enemies/competitors and survive to reproduce is what is right. Orcs are the ultimate Darwinists, life is all about survival of the fittest and the strongest. Orcs prove their strength by killing or enslaving the weak, since 'might makes right'.

 

Orcish Divine Heritage Values: Strength, Night, War, Death/Disease, Fertility/Caves/Earth/Medicine, Survival/Darwinism, Scars.

Quote:- 0e-RC.199; 1e-MM.76, 1e-PHB.17, DMG.13,40, UA.118-122; 2e-MM.281-282, CBoH.49-51; 3e-MM.146-147, 3e-PHB.18-19; HM-PHB-35-36, HM-HoB-v6.32-44, HoBv7.60-61, HM-DaDG.119.

- Roger E. Moore "The Half-Orc Point of View" and "The Gods of the Orcs" Dragon Magazine #62 (June 1982) Reprinted in Best of Dragon Magazine #3 (July 1983) p.28-34.

- Tolkienesque Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Uruk-Hai: tCGtME.304-306, 404-405; RM/MERP: LoME-V3.84-101.

- Rolemaster Orcs: Races and Cultures: Underground Races (1996).

- Achromatopsia and the "Island of the Colorblind".

- Hero: MMM.77-78, Senses H5e.105-108,226-231.

Background: Half-Orcs are half-orc and half-human crossbreeds. In a way, half-orcs take the best of both parentages -- they are stronger and tougher than a human, and are smarter and more self-disciplined than an orc.Powers/Tactics: Almost as varied as humans. Orc-blooded characters tend to try to win by any means necessary but, given an equal choice, they prefer violence as up close and personal as possible as the solution, which, given their innate strength and toughness, is often the best choice for them anyways.Campaign Use: Archtypical sub-human semi-humanoid, often used when you need something nasty that is about human-sized but not quite human. Often used instead of just a "monster", they are, by far, the most common non-human/non-demi-human NPC and PC race.

[Hierax]

Sorry, I uploaded old version last time, here's the current one for comment.

[Traxx]

Love the monster conversions and the HDT file. As much as feasible it would be nice to see an HDT file which each conversion.....maybe include them on your sites?..please?