Armitage Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Originally posted by Armitage You could live a long time in a vacuum, if you just floated doing absolutely nothing, but not indefinitely. I just did some "quick" math. (What can I say, it's a weekend). The characters would be at 0 END in roughly 25.25 years, Unconscious in 31.75 years, dying in 119,525 years, and dead in 231,094 years. That's assuming that the characters reduce their SPD to 2 and take no actions. And since they have no ability to move in outer space, what else would they do? And for the same reason, they'd pretty much be defeated as soon as they left the atmosphere anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 So, as before, the -target- is always aware that he is being attacked. If applied to a mind control, the character would still know that someone is invading his mind. Not like what Hugh was saying. (the target is unaware that he has been struck) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlSagan Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Mind Control in the 5th Edition Check out page 131 of the 5th Edition Hero System rules. I will reproduce the table here: MIND CONTROL EFFECTS: If The Total Rolled on Mind Control Dice - Mental DEF is: Greater than EGO The target will perform actions he is inclined to perform anyway. He will believe any statement which does not contradict prior knowledge. EGO + 10 Target will perform actions he wouldn't mind doing. He will believe any statement which does not contradict reality under direct observation. EGO + 20 Target will perform actions he is normally against doing. He will believe any statement which does not contradict strongly held personal beliefs or principles. EGO + 30 Target will perform actions he is violently opposed to doing. He will believe statements which contradict strongly held beliefs or which contradict reality under direct observation. The following modifiers apply at any level: -10 Order matches the targets Psych Lims -5 Order is worded in a very convincing manner +5 Order is poorly worded or contradictory +10 Order contradicts targets Psych Lims +10 Target will not remember actions +20 Target will remember actions, BUT WILL THINK THEY WERE HIS IDEA! So, if you could hit Professor X (29 EGO, 25 Mental Def) with 99 points of effect, he would do anything, believe anything he was told, no matter how ridiculous and no matter how antithetical to his way of life (29+25=54 + 30=84 + 5 + 10=99). At 99 points, he would remember his actions and realize that he was subject to mind control. At 109 points, he wouldn't remember anything (which would, in itself, be a big clue). At 119 points of effect, he would remember what he did, but would think he did it of his own free will. I bet if this went on long enough, the strain would drive him insane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Originally posted by Armitage I just did some "quick" math. (What can I say, it's a weekend). The characters would be at 0 END in roughly 25.25 years, Unconscious in 31.75 years, dying in 119,525 years, and dead in 231,094 years. That's assuming that the characters reduce their SPD to 2 and take no actions. And since they have no ability to move in outer space, what else would they do? And for the same reason, they'd pretty much be defeated as soon as they left the atmosphere anyway. Well, they can superleap away from each other to get some momentum up... In my defense, I worked them out in like 10-15 mins, late last night. I missed things, like taking 'cannot recombine' so as to afford a small power pool and Life Support: Breathing ('cause I honestly forgot you lose recoveries). Minor changes for major effect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Yes, making the target unaware that he -was- attacked is covered in the mind control rules, but if one has constructed his mind control as a 1d6 cumulative, the person being attacked is -well aware- of the fact that he is being attacked until the mind control is large enough to wipe the fact from his memory (ie "remember nothing" or "It was your own idea") Eventually he may succumb to the control, and even think that what he did was his own decision, but during the accumulation process, that isnt the case. What I am getting at is that cumulative IPE does not allow one to attack, eventually for great effect, without the target being aware that it is being attacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Outsider Yes, making the target unaware that he was attacked is covered in the mind control rules, but if one has constructed his mind control as a 1d6 cumulative, the person being attacked is -well aware- of the fact that he is being attacked. Eventually he may succumb to the control, and even think that what he did was his own decision, but during the accumulation process, that isnt the case. What I am getting at is that cumulative IPE does not allow one to attack, eventually for great effect, without the target being aware that it is being attacked. First FAQ question under "cumulative" indicates that applying IPE at the doubled "effects of the power are also invisible" level renders the victim unaware of the building acumulation. For good measure, I include the +20 effect so he doesn't remember (Telepathy) or thinks it was his own idea (Mind Control). While I don't believe this also applies to damage causing attacks, shouldn't it be possible? He notices nothing wrong until the heart attack kills him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Hm. Sounds like a game wrecker to me. Any legitimate use (slow poisons administered over time kinds of things) can be taken care of on the handwaving plotline level. Any use by the players (or by the villians in the way players would use it) would just be a "HAHA you're dead and there is nothing you can do about it! Neener neener!" kind of deal. Anyway, here is another way to defeat Dupus Maximus... Singularity Man! His primary powers : 178 (535) Density Increase - 107 Levels _________(-2) Charges - 1 Continuing Charge 30 (30) Life Support, Full 22 (22) Faster Than Light Travel (1 Light Year/week) 60 (60) Flight, 5" 128xNCM (480 mph) _______(+1/2) Reduced End Cost - 0 END 60 (60) Desolidification _______(+1/2) Reduced End Cost - 0 END When he turns on his Density Increase he becomes 8000 times as massive as the the sun. Which is massive enough (if I did my math right) to form an event horizon with a 24,000 km radius. The duplicator (and all his dupes) are thus permanently removed from the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Outsider Hm. Sounds like a game wrecker to me. Any legitimate use (slow poisons administered over time kinds of things) can be taken care of on the handwaving plotline level. Any use by the players (or by the villians in the way players would use it) would just be a "HAHA you're dead and there is nothing you can do about it! Neener neener!" kind of deal. That was the point of the thread, wasn't it? "Here's a character construction that fits the letter of the rules but would be denied under the spirit". And this guy readily deals with our duplicates (although it takes a while). Control one, turn him against the rest. Continue until all are dead. Easiest approach is probably control one, have him attack the second, then shut off his mind link and LOS so he loses all those defenses for the counterattack. He might have to suicide them somehow, but get rid of those bonuises and they'll drop pretty easily. Might have to spend some of those points on LS: Immortal to last long enough to take out DupeMan, but he'll survive the experience. By the way, it's not a very effective way to build solw acting poisons. Gradual effect and one big attack, or Uncontrolled Continuous at zero END, would work far better. Most attacks (KA's, EB's) are already cumulative, with no limit to their maximums inflicted. The bigger issue for the guy I posit is who would allow this with three levels of Penetrating. Without PEN, a 5 point investment in mental defense stops him from direcly affecting the target. Actually, with that and some plot devices, it culd make for an interesting scenario - "Villain controls the world; only your team is free; what do you do?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 The thing is, I see a legitimate use for duplication, though not, of course to the scale this guy wrote up. I dont see much legitimacy in the Double IPE construction, and am suprised they included it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Outsider The thing is, I see a legitimate use for duplication, though not, of course to the scale this guy wrote up. I dont see much legitimacy in the Double IPE construction, and am suprised they included it at all. Yeah. This guy is far worse than his predecessor. The original just had the ability to be a team of beyond-PC level characters when all conscious, but one falls they lose his power and some defenses/extra STUN. Actually, seems pretty fair. Just not if there's several MILLION copies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 I have a villian that works much the same way*, though, being the GM, of course, I have a vested interest in not having him be unbalancing. Players sometimes dont seem to be concerned with that *The character is actually a multiform, where one form is required to duplicate. "The Fissionables" and "Meltdown" The Fissionables increase in power when they are in close proximity to one another. If they touch they can, at their option, change into the Meltdown! form, who is a pretty though single character. (who has : a Berzerk Disad just for existing, a Vulnerablity to neutron bombardment, and accidental change into the fissionables if knocked unconsious...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Outsider The thing is, I see a legitimate use for duplication, though not, of course to the scale this guy wrote up. I dont see much legitimacy in the Double IPE construction, and am suprised they included it at all. The only purposes I've seen described are an attack that leaves no visible signs (murder mystery, anyone?) and the undetectable Cumulative. Actually, even if you pull the doubling, so what? The opponent can't start making breakout rolls until the power has taken effect. So he knows control is gradually building - what does he do about it? It's just included there to be that much more abusive, like that third layer of Penetrating.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormraven Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Okay, call me dumb, but just how does '+1' to a stat, usable by up to 'x' others count as cumulative for a single character? As I read that construct, each character has base characteristic +1. Unless, of course, each one of them has the ability and, as they duplicate, they add, which kind of makes sense, I suppose. But in that case, I as GM wouldn't let them add. Why? Because they're the same power. I wouldn't let the PC use the same power multiple times on himself, so why should I let the PC's duplicates all use the same power on him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Stormraven Okay, call me dumb, but just how does '+1' to a stat, usable by up to 'x' others count as cumulative for a single character? As I read that construct, each character has base characteristic +1. Unless, of course, each one of them has the ability and, as they duplicate, they add, which kind of makes sense, I suppose. But in that case, I as GM wouldn't let them add. Why? Because they're the same power. I wouldn't let the PC use the same power multiple times on himself, so why should I let the PC's duplicates all use the same power on him? Yes, all of them have the ability. Characteristics stack. They're not the same power, each has a different power. Look at it this way. Between them, they paid MILLIONS of points for the ability. The real problem is tha Duplication gives you lots and lots of net points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluefire Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 To answer the original question... No I would not allow that in my game Thank you, have a nice day. Try again tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormraven Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme Yes, all of them have the ability. Characteristics stack. They're not the same power, each has a different power. Look at it this way. Between them, they paid MILLIONS of points for the ability. The real problem is tha Duplication gives you lots and lots of net points. I don't know that I could buy that argument. I view something like that very much as I would view 'Aid' bought for each duplicate. They do the exact same thing, with the exact same special effect, so they are, for all intents and purposes, the same power. Now, Steve may consider that valid - if so, then it might require a house rule - but a construct like that will never work that way in my campaigns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Originally posted by Stormraven I don't know that I could buy that argument. I view something like that very much as I would view 'Aid' bought for each duplicate. They do the exact same thing, with the exact same special effect, so they are, for all intents and purposes, the same power. Now, Steve may consider that valid - if so, then it might require a house rule - but a construct like that will never work that way in my campaigns. How about each duplicate chips in with a unique 60 AP power? You suddenly have a combined nightmare with 12d6 EB, 4d6 RKA, 70 STR, DEX 30, SPD 10, 20/20 Armour, CON 40, 30" Flight, 75% rDamage Reduction, 62 points of Mental Defense, PRE 70, 60pts Power Defense, Megascale Teleport, -30" KB and 2 different Unique Senses that are targeting, 360, analytical and have Flash Defense. That's just with Duplication x 16. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Shrinker could defeat them all, one by one. Shrink inside one of them, flash him, kill him with Internal Agony. Lather, rinse, repeat. Sure, it would take her a lot of time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Originally posted by Solomon Shrinker could defeat them all, one by one. Shrink inside one of them, flash him, kill him with Internal Agony. Lather, rinse, repeat. Sure, it would take her a lot of time... If you mean the originals.. maybe not. The essentially regenerate, they have so much REC (REC in BODY per month, right? ). Can Shrinker spare the next few lifetimes of the universe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme If you mean the originals.. maybe not. The essentially regenerate, they have so much REC (REC in BODY per month, right? ). Can Shrinker spare the next few lifetimes of the universe? Once Flashed, they lose LOS and all their powers, meaning that two or three Transdimensional attacks by Shrinker are more than enough to do the job... on any single one of them. Of course, at the rate of one per turn, Shrinker woudn't be able to kill them all in her lifetime. But since she's to all intents invulnerable while in the Microverse, and since she can stay there indefinitely, I count that as a win for her. Edit: If you're talking about the 16 duplicates version, that is actually a lot harder to defeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormraven Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme How about each duplicate chips in with a unique 60 AP power? You suddenly have a combined nightmare with 12d6 EB, 4d6 RKA, 70 STR, DEX 30, SPD 10, 20/20 Armour, CON 40, 30" Flight, 75% rDamage Reduction, 62 points of Mental Defense, PRE 70, 60pts Power Defense, Megascale Teleport, -30" KB and 2 different Unique Senses that are targeting, 360, analytical and have Flash Defense. That's just with Duplication x 16. I presume you're saying 'with useable by others' on the powers? I'd be more willing to allow that - for any powers that cost End - simple because no one's got enough End to let give the power to every single Duplicate. But more willing doesn't translate to 'yes, I'd allow it'. To my mind, duplicates aren't 'others', and never will be. Therefore, you can't use powers with 'useable by others' on your duplicates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfire Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 It's no wonder the term "rules rapist" came into existence:eek: Have people no soul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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