Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

What's our unit of measurement? Are we going to use displacement tons (volume) as the measure - not mass? (Personally I prefer DS.) Then, are we going to use the 1 DS - 2 cubic hex (I think that was the reference I saw earlier).

 

Once unit of measure is taken care of, we need to establish a baseline tech level. Meaning, how big is X at ATRI Y? Then we should figure out a rough scaling rate for +/-Y. So, if ARTI goes up, volume should go down; if ARTI goes down volume should go up. Then for each type of X we will have to figure out a min/max volume - albeit that will probably be somewhat arbitrary.

 

Then figure out categories and subcategories of X. Do we just say 'all powerplants' or break it down by type as well: fission, fusion, antimatter, etc.

 

Aroooo

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I reccomend we go with Displacement tons, it has the most commonality with the other systems were looking at borrowing from

 

and the scale of 1 DT= 2 hexes, its not perfect but it makes conversions easy

and gives us a sense of scale. if we want to play' with mass. we could do that too, but I think overall DT works fine.

 

as far as scaling, I would think its going to vary on TL

my suggestion is that we use something akin to the way its handled In GURPS

 

Say a given system is ATRI-9 at introduction and has full volume

at ATRI-10 its going to have half volume

and at ATRI-11 its going to have quarter volume

and at ATRI-12 its going to have eighth volume

 

with the maximum reduction happening 3 TL after Introduction

 

you could also reduce the END cost at higher TL's and or increase range etc

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Okay, lets stick with DT and 1DT=2 cubic hexes.

 

I would go with 3/4 volume, 1/2 volume, 1/4 volume reductions instead. I don't think many systems are going to get reduced by 1/2 volume with just one tech level jump. But also lets remember that this means building an ATRI 9 drive system using ATRI 11 tech for example.

 

For starters I think we should not worry about what other benefits tech scale gets. Lets stick with mapping out volume first

 

Aroooo

[Starwolf]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Here are some size synopsis notes I have been working on from FRED, TUV, and SH. I am worrking on a Wing Commander Hero campaign based on the games, cartoons, and novels, not the movie. I hope this is of some use....

 

Hero Vehicle Size:

 

• Exterior size (Volume) = L x W x H (H <= W or 1†whichever is greater) (TUV pg. 8)

• Interior size (Volume) <= Exterior size*.5 (Fred pg. 314)

• As a rough guideline assume half of a vehicles interior space is suitable for passengers and cargo (TUV pg. 10)

• Payload is defined as 1 hex = 5 tons (TUV pg. 88)

• Chemical rockets take up 1 hex times required delta-v in KPS. (TUV pg. 88)

• Thermal rockets take up 2 hexes plus ½ hex of fuel per hex of payload per KPS of delta-v (TUV pg.88)

• Ion rockets take up 2 hexes plus (1 hex of fuel per 20 hexes of ship) (TUV pg. 88)

• Plasma rockets take up 2 hexes plus (1/5 of vehicle hexes per KPS of delta-v) (TUV pg. 88)

• Fusion rockets take up 2 hexes plus (1/100 of vehicle hexes per KPS of delta-v) (TUV pg. 88)

• Antimatter drive takes up ¼ of vehicle hexes because of shielding (TUV pg. 88)

• Reactionless drives take up 1/10 of vehicle hexes (TUV pg. 89)

• FTL Warp drives take up about ½ the total hexes of a ship (TUV pg. 90)

• FTL Hyper drives take up about ¼ the total hexes of a ship (TUV pg. 90)

• FTL Jump drives take up about 1/10 the total hexes of a ship (TUV pg. 91)

• Equipment mass and volume for weapons, defenses, propulsion, and power systems = 2 kg and .5 hexes per 5 active points in the system (TUV pg. 118)

• Equipment mass and volume for sensors, communications, and misc electronic devices = 1 kg and .2 hexes per 5 active points in the system (TUV pg. 118)

• Weapon mass and volume = up to .5 to 1 cubic hexes and 2 kg per active point (TUV pg. 119)

• A vehicle may mount up to 1 weapon per point of size (TUV pg. 119)

• Defensive systems mass and volume = up to 1-3 cubic hexes and up to 3 kg per active point of defense (TUV pg. 135)

• Movement systems mass and volume = up to .1 to 1 cubic hexes and up to .2 kg per 10 active points (TUV pg. 147)

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

thanks for the help folks

 

if were doing the traveller style jump drive, theres a definite issue

since the jump drive uses fuel equal to 10% of the ships DT per jump #

with a maximum jump of 6

[Al_Beddow]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Not to take this away from the main hero site,

but arooo could we set aside a forum for this at starherofandom.com?

 

thanks

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I was thinking of going with 1 hex per 20 active points, maybe its just my traveller upbringing, but otherwise it looks like things get out of hand in a hurrry sizewise.

 

Heres a couple of examples from TE

 

Mark 1 Starship Laser

124 active points

standard size at ATRI-9= 12 Hexes

ATRI-10= 8 Hexes

ATRI-11= 6 Hexes

ATRI-12= 4 Hexes

 

that just looks awfully big for such a low power laser

 

now lets look at the Mark 20 Laser

412 Active Points

ATRI-11= 37 Hexes

ATRI-12= 25 Hexes

 

Whereas the standard traveller beam laser that

I worked up is a TL-12 Weapon

270 AP and is 1DT/2 Hexes

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Not to take this away from the main hero site,

but arooo could we set aside a forum for this at starherofandom.com?

 

thanks

 

I don't see why not, but are you talking about creating just a forum thread, or a new section in the forums?

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I was thinking of going with 1 hex per 20 active points, maybe its just my traveller upbringing, but otherwise it looks like things get out of hand in a hurrry sizewise.

 

Heres a couple of examples from TE

 

Mark 1 Starship Laser

124 active points

standard size at ATRI-9= 12 Hexes

ATRI-10= 8 Hexes

ATRI-11= 6 Hexes

ATRI-12= 4 Hexes

 

that just looks awfully big for such a low power laser

 

now lets look at the Mark 20 Laser

412 Active Points

ATRI-11= 37 Hexes

ATRI-12= 25 Hexes

 

Whereas the standard traveller beam laser that

I worked up is a TL-12 Weapon

270 AP and is 1DT/2 Hexes

 

Some observations:

 

1) Didn't your Traveller write-up just deal with the 1 DT required for the crew position?

 

2) You're not thinking 3 dimensions. The Mark I becomes 2x2x3 cubic hexes, and the Mk20(ATRI12) becomes approx 3x3x2.5 cubic hexes. Thats not so bad.

 

Aroooo

[Talon]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Also, before you start figuring this stuff out, do the math for the number of cubic hexes available on the larger ships. If you don't scale size pretty radically for higher AP items, the big ships will be packing an awful lot of stuff.

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Also' date=' before you start figuring this stuff out, do the math for the number of cubic hexes available on the larger ships. If you don't scale size pretty radically for higher AP items, the big ships will be packing an awful lot of stuff.[/quote']

 

Good point.

 

• Exterior size (Volume) = L x W x H (H <= W or 1†whichever is greater) (TUV pg. 8)

• Interior size (Volume) <= Exterior size*.5 (Fred pg. 314)

 

I have a problem with the interior volume calc. How do they get at 50%? Thats an awfull big reduction. Plus, how much of that 'missing' 50% includes volume for equipment? I'm guessing that the 50% is usable volume - rooms, hallways, bridge, crew quarters, etc.

 

Aroooo

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

are they saying you have 50% internal volume thats usable after bulkheads etc and vital systems?. or is that 50% before vital systems etc?

if there saying that 50% is before you install vital systems... that just doesnt make a lot of sense... again using traveller for an example, you start with your total hull volume, this assumes standard bulkheads etc... then if you want to add heavier compartmentalization... its 10% for partial and 20% for full compartmentalization. GURPS Traveller also penalizes your usable volume for a streamlined hull, again 10 for partial, 20 for full. so even if you have a fully compartmented streamlined hull, you still have 70% space available.

 

In traveller a 2 passenger stateroom is 4DT/8 hexes, but half that is actual stateroom space, the rest is subsumed in hallways, storage etc

 

I would agree with 50% usable space for passengers/cargo etc

[Starwolf]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Good point.

 

 

 

I have a problem with the interior volume calc. How do they get at 50%? Thats an awfull big reduction. Plus, how much of that 'missing' 50% includes volume for equipment? I'm guessing that the 50% is usable volume - rooms, hallways, bridge, crew quarters, etc.

 

Aroooo

 

Thats my take on it also. I beleive that the intent was 50% for passageways, berths, deck space, cargo, and voids. The missing 50% would be ships equipage (this is equipment permanentlt attached to a ship vice portable items of equipment) like engines, weapons, control systems, and other hardware.

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

So the number one presumption we have to make here is to ditch that guideline from Fred

 

Second, what specifically are we trying to accomplish here? Are we trying to create a system for determining equipment volume, just to see if everything fits into a hull (ala the Gurps/Traveller method) or are we trying to determine how big things are for the purposes of making deck plans? Or both, for that matter. (If its both, then we're gonna have to make sacrifices .)

 

Personally, I liked the simplified Gurps Traveller method. It was detailed without being overly so. Deck plan derivations were still somewhat fudged, but they worked well enough.

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I'm trying to draw up some basic floor plans for various starships from TE and the Spacers Toolkit.

 

One problem I'm having is figuring out how much space/volume things like bridges, fuel, sheild generators, engines, etc. take up.

 

I've searched through Star Hero, TE, the Toolkit and haven't found anything. This is kind of important because the players in my TE game want to run a merc/merchant/smuggling campaign and so I need some idea of how the ship is laid out.

 

Thanks

 

To start from the beginning

 

So, here's my thake on what we're looking for:

 

• How much volume does a ship of SIZE X have?

• How much of that is usable volume?

or

• how much volume does the powerplant take up?

• How much volume does the drive system(s) take up?

• How much... etc. all the way down the list of powers, skills, labs, etc.

and then

• Did it all fit in the SIZE?

• Figure out how much of that people can actually move through.

equals

reasonable space allocations for making deck plans.

 

Aroooo

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I asked for a clarification in the general rules question board

and heres Steves Response

 

The rules concerning Vehicle volume are all strictly optional guidelines, and they go about as far as I ever intend to officially. If you want to provide more detail regarding the volume of your Vehicles, you can include whatever you think is appropriate.

[Al_Beddow]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I don't see why not, but are you talking about creating just a forum thread, or a new section in the forums?

 

Aroooo

 

I'd like to sort of have it as a discussion area for two reasons:

1) sort of control the flow of inputs (too many cooks...)

2) so we can have seperat threads for seperate issues. I just HATE trying to follow 4 different conversations all going on in the same thread.

 

I've done something like this for KenzerCo and, this is how I ran it.. .Worked great!

 

Thanks

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I'd like to sort of have it as a discussion area for two reasons:

1) sort of control the flow of inputs (too many cooks...)

2) so we can have seperat threads for seperate issues. I just HATE trying to follow 4 different conversations all going on in the same thread.

 

Got it. If everyone is okay with moving this conversation over to starherofandom I don't have a problem setting up a forum section for this conversion project. That's why I made the site in the first place

 

Aroooo

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

works for me, but do we want to do any cross-posting for the folks that dont follow both sites?

 

with the response Steve gave on the volume question, do we go with the 50% usable after to make things easier, or build from teh ground up?

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

works for me, but do we want to do any cross-posting for the folks that dont follow both sites?

 

with the response Steve gave on the volume question, do we go with the 50% usable after to make things easier, or build from teh ground up?

 

Minimal cross posting; otherwise why not stay here and make several threads...

 

I'm for the ground up. Base hull volume loosely on the GURPS guidelines, and then for each piece of equipment, figure its total volume and usable volume (i.e. parts that are machinery vs. livable/occupiable). Some things will have more usable volume than others. Engines will probably have little usable volume, where a lab will be mostly usable volume.

 

Another point, the AP/20=hexes does not work well for things like labs, life support, etc.

 

Aroooo

[Starwolf]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

I'm ok with moving to Herofandom.

 

I seem to remember in Champions II (or one of the other older books) there was also a discussion of how many hexes equipment, labs, danger rooms, etc took up in a headquarters or vehicle. Perhaps if someone has a copy there would be useful info there that could be converted to 5E and added to the whole schmear!!

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

then what about using a fixed size for such things, or a %

for example GT requires a utility module taking 1DT for every 500 tons of displacement, this covers your environmental requirements.

while not perfect, it might be the easiest way of depicting such things

 

Labs also take a specific amount of space in GT, and thats 2 DT

what about having a basic lab take 2DT, a enhanced lab take 4 and an advanced lab take 6? or something similar

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

From Champions 2

 

Labs take 5 Hexes

Machine shops or mechanical workshops tkae 10 hexes

and allow a standard skill roll

under the the old system, the labs cost 1 pt each

 

improving either adds 3 hexes per +1 to the skill roll and +1 cost

although by spending 2 pts to add +1 the size stays the same

 

These are for a general lab or workshop

a specific Lab is 3 hexes, +1 per +1

a specfic workshop is 6 hexes and +1 per +1

 

so by this rule, a lab from GT would count as a general lab +1

since its 4 DT/8 Hexes

[Al_Beddow]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Got it. If everyone is okay with moving this conversation over to starherofandom I don't have a problem setting up a forum section for this conversion project. That's why I made the site in the first place

 

Aroooo

 

 

Thanks to everyone who's willing to move this discussion over to arrooo's site.

 

Once we have hit a good point everything will be posted here for more general comment and consumption.

[Aroooo]

Re: Starship design - How much space does THAT take up?

 

Thanks to everyone who's willing to move this discussion over to arrooo's site.

 

Once we have hit a good point everything will be posted here for more general comment and consumption.

 

Done. A new section is up and running:

http://www.starherofandom.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

 

Aroooo