Question on flight and telekinesis

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

The issue, I believe, is that I don't see using TK and a Movement Power to create a Move Through as an issue of action/reaction anymore than using TK to throw an object at opponent is. And throwing is not only a legal TK maneuver but outlined in the book specifically.

 

And stricly speaking .. stating that TK is not action/reaction is a poor choice of words .. considering that the action is "I telekinetically wish to move that brick seven feet to the left and put it in the wall I'm building" and the reaction is the brick moves seven feet and ends up in the wall.

 

It should have been stated that TK cannot be used on oneself anymore than you can pick yourself up off the ground by grabbing your ankles and pulling up. As for grabbing a flying character to fly, well - that makes some sense as well since you are then holding their weight and not the other way around and in order for them to fly you they need to be able to hold your weight and move.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Hey, no need to get all riled up about this...

 

Basically no action/reaction means just that. No action on the source (the TK individual) imposes a eaction on the object being controlled, and vice versa. If you were holding a truck up over innocent bystanders, and soemone with flight grabbed you and flew down the street, you sure the hell don't want that truck tagging along for the ride, and by default it does not.

 

You can't teachnically 'tow'. You can move... and then you can use a power to move an object to get it to you, or vice versa. you may even state your movment and your control of the object happens at the same time, but they are NOT linked, and you are not really towing the object. Otherwise if either you or the object gets snagged then both would stop.

 

And vehicles move every phase... so what speed do you have to be at to control an object to keep up with that speed? You can calculate the range you can ove an object with TK in a phase, and then multiply that by your speed... that is the limit to the speed of movement you can attain while keeping that object with you. If you fly at mach 2, that villain is NOT going to stay neatly behind you unless you have some serious range increases on your TK.

[JayH]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Assume a character has both flight and TK. He levitates a heavy object and then begins flying' date=' carrying the heavy object with him. Does the heavy object slow him down at all? Or does the heavy object travel at the same speed?[/quote']

To get back to your original question... since no one else has posted the exact words for the FAQ yet, I thought it might help.

Q: Since Telekinesis won’t allow a character to grab hold of a flying character or vehicle and be “dragged along,†is it possible for a character with Telekinesis who can also fly to pick something (or someone) up and carry it along while he flies?

A: Yes, just like a character with Flight can carry something in his arms as he flies. You should apply the standard rules for Encumbrance’s effect on movement (5E 250), unless the GM prefers to do otherwise based on special effects, common sense, and dramatic sense.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

To get back to your original question... since no one else has posted the exact words for the FAQ yet' date=' I thought it might help.

Q: Since Telekinesis won’t allow a character to grab hold of a flying character or vehicle and be “dragged along,†is it possible for a character with Telekinesis who can also fly to pick something (or someone) up and carry it along while he flies?

A: Yes, just like a character with Flight can carry something in his arms as he flies. You should apply the standard rules for Encumbrance’s effect on movement (5E 250), unless the GM prefers to do otherwise based on special effects, common sense, and dramatic sense.

 

Yeah, that was my question to Steve over a year ago that I referenced in an earlier post. Two boards back now. Good to see it made it into the FAQ.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

To get back to your original question... since no one else has posted the exact words for the FAQ yet' date=' I thought it might help.[/quote']

Well I guess that answers that...

 

Sorry ghost-angel, I guess I missed that in the FAQ. I actually looked too!

 

Still doesn't answer whether or not one can perform a Move Through using TK like that....but with that official ruling, I'm certainly learning towards it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Well I guess that answers that...

 

Sorry ghost-angel, I guess I missed that in the FAQ. I actually looked too!

 

Still doesn't answer whether or not one can perform a Move Through using TK like that....but with that official ruling, I'm certainly learning towards it.

 

Depends on dramatic sense .. but, since you're towing an object it has momentum and if you release that object it retains that momentum .. if you really wanted you could rule it as a throw with extra velocity.

 

Or if you don't release the object and continue to tow it that sounds like a movethrough, or at the least a move by.

 

Think of it as a Move Through with a weapon, only you're neatly out of the way.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Depends on dramatic sense .. but, since you're towing an object it has momentum and if you release that object it retains that momentum .. if you really wanted you could rule it as a throw with extra velocity.

 

Or if you don't release the object and continue to tow it that sounds like a movethrough, or at the least a move by.

 

Think of it as a Move Through with a weapon, only you're neatly out of the way.

That's what I'm thinking. Only I don't notice much attention given to scientific words like "momentum" in FREd. It's all about Inches/Phase, STR and damage rather than about momentum, velocity and inertia. In otherwords, it could look like it's moving that fast, but it's just travaling across a hex map and won't do any more damage than it would if you throw it.

 

Again, not saying that's how I'd do it. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm also trying to absorb the idea that you can grab something and drag it, but for some reason it can't drag you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

That's what I'm thinking. Only I don't notice much attention given to scientific words like "momentum" in FREd. It's all about Inches/Phase' date=' STR and damage rather than about momentum, velocity and inertia. In otherwords, it could [i']look[/i] like it's moving that fast, but it's just travaling across a hex map and won't do any more damage than it would if you throw it.

 

Again, not saying that's how I'd do it. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm also trying to absorb the idea that you can grab something and drag it, but for some reason it can't drag you.

 

Think of it this way (this is only an attempt at an explanation) .. when you grab something with TK you are essentially trying to bring it under your control - bring it to you or keep it within a certain distance of you, something like that.

 

When you use TK to grab another moving object (character or vehicle) you can't "give up that control" to be carried along so you either 1) stop the object and bring it to you or 2) the object slips through your TK and keeps going.

 

that help at all?

 

it only sort of does for me.

 

I believe our GM has ruled in favor of "messing with the player" as in one game he decided that TKing a passing airplane caused the poor TKer to get sucked up and carried along until they let go ... which they didn't since they had no way of surviving a fall from 30,000 feet.... it was bad mojo for a while. but funny.

 

[oh and Inches/Phase is a game mechanic way of describing Momentum which is, in terms of physics, a Vector with factors of Mass and Velocity.]

[i3ullseye]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Generally speaking, the way have always run it (and will continue to) is like this... just for example and calrification sake. It won't be right or wrong, but it might shed some light on MY logic behind it.

 

You and the object being controlled are 100% seperate form each other. It is completely indirect force being applied to the object. So you can stop or move a moving object, but it will never pull you along. You can fly and maintain people or objects with you, but only at the limit of the speed you can move them with your TK, any faster and you lose them.

 

If you are flying with someone being brought along, and that something gets yanked to the ground, you do not go down with it. If you are yanked down, the item is NOT drawn down, but you may lose your control in some instance. So you have completely different forced of momentum applied to you, and the object has completely unique forces applied to it.

 

now, certainly you CAn make a power with your TK that allows others to fly... but you build it as either Flight usable on others, or invisible and indirect stretching. There are quite a few other tricks you can do with this, but each must be bought individually. This also allows for TK to be the great basis of a multipower pool, or even an EC if done right.

 

Just as you can not freely have a force field because you have TK, you can not freely fly because you have TK, you can not have a free energy blast to punch through things because you have TK, you also do not gain flight that can help your friends or foes because you have TK.

 

Now, how fast CAN you move something with TK?

 

telekinesis can move an object a number of inches per phase EQUAL to the distance the object could be thrown with a running throw based on the TK Strength. So forexample, a TK strength of 30 can throw an average man (100 kg) 16". so with your TK you can make an object move at 16" per phase on your speed segments. Thats not too shabby.

 

But as soon as you go into non-combat mode, you will lose your object quickly. You would have to limit your flight to be equal to the move rate of the object, plus pay full endurance for the total strength of the TK to ensure you have the excess strength to generate the full 16" move rate each segment.

 

At least, thats how I handle it, and to me it seems logical.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Glad it works for you, glad it works for your players.

 

But I'll simply point out that per the FAQ, and hence the rules of the game, you can move at non-combat speeds towing an item you have held in a Telekinetic Grab. As well as at combat speeds.

 

You also are allowed to "punch" things with your Telekenisis as it states in FREd (your "free" energy blast) as a TK STR punch.

 

And there is one MAJOR difference I'd like to point out about Telekinetically towing a character as you fly and Flight Usalbe On/By Others ... the TK'Grabbed opponent has no control over their movement, the character Granted Flight does and pays their own END/Phase if it is Flight Usable By Others.

 

It's nice to know you've limited the power to the point of near uselessness.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

[oh and Inches/Phase is a game mechanic way of describing Momentum which is' date= in terms of physics, a Vector with factors of Mass and Velocity.]

I'm perfectly aware of this. My point is, it's only a mechanic used to represent momentum. It doesn't represent it accurately in all cases, or even most cases. In fact it represents momentum quite unfairly (30"/Phase at SPD 2 will cause more damage with a Move Through than 15"/Phase at SPD 4, even though both have the same effective speed).

 

Just because it makes sense in the real world doesn't mean it applies in a game (or even means it should).

[i3ullseye]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Certainly a telekinetic can use TK to punch an opponent, I never said you couldn't. and i think this is one of the most versatile powers in the whole game, so I fail to see where I have reduced it to utter uselessness.

 

But punching and energy blast are quite different. A punch is direct sharp force applied to a target object. Period. By default a telekinetic can strike or grab a single target, and thats it.

 

Energy Blast is WAY more versatile for attacks, with everything from spreading, attacking all the items in the interveniting distince, blasting through things and going on to the next target, etc. TK does not work this way, you hit the single target you aim for, you do not generate a focused force that emanates form you and keeps going until it can do no more damage.

 

If you had a house with sliding paper walls... and energy blast could go right through the whole thing and lose no damage potential, and randomly try to hit an object on the other side. if it misses it might do collateral damage. Telekinesis woudl break the first paper wall and stop in my games. It hits the target desired, or it misses it, nothing more.

 

If there were 4 panes of glass to go through however the blast would go through them all, shattering them. TK can hit soemone on the otherside of all this glass without breaking any of the panes. It is quite different, and thus not a free energy blast. you can't spread TK for effect, or other typical blast maneuvers.

 

But again, not right or wrong, just the way our gorups have always run it and it works well for us because it is logical.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Certainly a telekinetic can use TK to punch an opponent, I never said you couldn't. and i think this is one of the most versatile powers in the whole game, so I fail to see where I have reduced it to utter uselessness.

 

But punching and energy blast are quite different. A punch is direct sharp force applied to a target object. Period. By default a telekinetic can strike or grab a single target, and thats it.

 

Energy Blast is WAY more versatile for attacks, with everything from spreading, attacking all the items in the interveniting distince, blasting through things and going on to the next target, etc. TK does not work this way, you hit the single target you aim for, you do not generate a focused force that emanates form you and keeps going until it can do no more damage.

 

If you had a house with sliding paper walls... and energy blast could go right through the whole thing and lose no damage potential, and randomly try to hit an object on the other side. if it misses it might do collateral damage. Telekinesis woudl break the first paper wall and stop in my games. It hits the target desired, or it misses it, nothing more.

 

If there were 4 panes of glass to go through however the blast would go through them all, shattering them. TK can hit soemone on the otherside of all this glass without breaking any of the panes. It is quite different, and thus not a free energy blast. you can't spread TK for effect, or other typical blast maneuvers.

 

But again, not right or wrong, just the way our gorups have always run it and it works well for us because it is logical.

I aggree with most of this. The primary exception would be collateral damage. I usually let SFX determine if that's possible, and it could go either way for EB or TK. TK could miss and grab/punch the wrong object (thrown objects bought as TK for the ability to move objects without breaking them) and EB could just miss (a mystic arrow that dissipates harmlessly if the targets avoids it).

[i3ullseye]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Ok, I completely agree... but by basic definition TK is aimed at a specifit target, and will not normaly go afr off that target. If you miss, the will to apply force is gone as it was focused on a specific target.

 

This is not to say some powers bought as TK yet defined as other forces might not do that. But i would generally try to avoid it at that point and buy the power as something else.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

Ok, I completely agree... but by basic definition TK is aimed at a specifit target, and will not normaly go afr off that target. If you miss, the will to apply force is gone as it was focused on a specific target.

 

This is not to say some powers bought as TK yet defined as other forces might not do that. But i would generally try to avoid it at that point and buy the power as something else.

That puts too much restriction on TK, in my opinion. Seems to limit it to "mind over matter" and leaving out things like ectoplasmic limbs, tractor beams, Batman's Baterangs, grappling hooks, gravity manipulation and a number of other SFX that could most certainly have an affect on the enviornment if an attack roll is missed.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

But I don't see most of those being TK.......

 

ectoplasmic limbs..... stretching

 

tractor beams.... stretching or TK both work

 

Batman's Baterangs...... energy blast, possible entangle or others, but TK?

 

grappling hooks... entangle

 

gravity manipulation... generally controls of this nature are best for TK, but 'tricks' other than just moving the element controlled are best bought as individual powers rather than just letting a TK do it all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

But I don't see most of those being TK.......

 

ectoplasmic limbs..... stretching

Unless you can manifest the ectoplasm through walls, or over quite a bit of distance (say 30" or more).

 

tractor beams.... stretching or TK both work

 

Batman's Baterangs...... energy blast, possible entangle or others, but TK?

Ranged disarms come to mind, but now we also have Ranged Martial Arts for this as well. He's also used them to flip levers or latches.

 

grappling hooks... entangle

Scorpion's "get over here" manauver, although Stretching could also work, but with a normal grappling hook you can just let go if he grabs you back.

 

gravity manipulation... generally controls of this nature are best for TK, but 'tricks' other than just moving the element controlled are best bought as individual powers rather than just letting a TK do it all.

It's not a trick, it's an effect. If I alter gravity around you to throw you against the wall, I could just as easily miss you or the area you are in and throw something else up against the wall. Just because the target moved doesn't mean the affect dissapates. The affect's still there and might affect something else, just like other Powers.

[Kelvin]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

You and the object being controlled are 100% seperate form each other. It is completely indirect force being applied to the object. So you can stop or move a moving object, but it will never pull you along. You can fly and maintain people or objects with you, but only at the limit of the speed you can move them with your TK, any faster and you lose them.

 

This is how I have always interpreted the rule as well.

 

The FAQ seems to say differently because of the "just like a character with Flight can carry something in his arms as he flies" statement.

 

This would certainly make TK more useful for ferrying your comrades around.

 

But since the FAQ quote doesn't specifically address the maximum speed you could "carry" the object at, maybe it just means to you can move the object simultaneously with moving yourself (i.e. not two 1/2 phase actions).

[JayH]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

If you Grab an opponent with your TK, how far can you move them and still do the STR damage by smashing them against the ground (or whatever)? Not a Throw, a move and a smash. I don't want to release the Grab. For that matter, how far can you move them and then squeeze them for damage?

And, should I have made this a new thread? Thanks for your feedback.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Question on flight and telekinesis

 

If you Grab an opponent with your TK, how far can you move them and still do the STR damage by smashing them against the ground (or whatever)? Not a Throw, a move and a smash. I don't want to release the Grab. For that matter, how far can you move them and then squeeze them for damage?

And, should I have made this a new thread? Thanks for your feedback.

As written, you can move a object grabbed with TK the same distance you could throw them (equal to whatever a Running Throw would be based on the mass of the object). The damage would be based on the full STR of the TK, the distance thrown/velocity wouldn't add any additional damage. As far as squeezing/crushing, I think you can do that, or throw/move it, just like with a normal grab with STR.