Power Armor EC Question

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

It was a good effort. I do not entirely share your point of view' date=' but I do see where you are coming from, and you merit high praise for trying to communicate your ideas without taking things personally. Rock on, indeed. [/quote']

 

Thanks for your support.

 

I suffer from a mild form of dyslexia which makes it difficult for me to express my ideas in a written format. Gaming always seems to force the limits of my writing skills. I have learned only the years, that when I get frustrated, I need to walk away .... take a break! Then I can focus my thoughts better. I am going to take another stab at explaining this from scratch without a power gaming rant.

 

 

The common special effect "battlesuit" should not be approved as an Elemental Control because the special effect used is too general and would allow the character access to a broad power set that could be placed in their Control. The special effect that governs an Elemental Control should be specific enough so that not every power could be reasonably linked together under its rational. The Elemental Control's special effect must restrict the character's selection of powers in some way to qualify them for the cost savings. A "battlesuit" is too general of a special effect, what is the limitation? A character with darkness powers should not be able to create light, likewise; a character with light powers should not be able to create darkness by the rational of their respective Elemental Controls. Moreover, a fire guy should not be able to freeze water or a ice guy should not be able to boil a cup of tea but the battlesuit guy could reasonably link all these powers under the rationale of his battlesuit powers. Elemental Controls with a general special effects such as a battlesuit powers, mutant powers or magic powers should not be allowed. The special effect of an Elemental Control must be specific enough to be restrict the character in some way to justify the cost savings gained from using this Framework. Power special effects such as fire powers, ice powers, light powers or darkness powers by their nature restrict a character on what powers they can reasonably incorporate into their Control; therefore, they should entitled to the cost savings of an Elemental Control.

 

 

I don't think I can explain this any better.

 

 

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[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

We're into the arena of game theory, here, but for what little it's worth I'll share my opinion.

 

In theory, an Elemental Control grants a cost break to the character to reward the player for coming up with a tight character conception. Because the player has chosen to focus the character's abilities into a very specific niche (which makes the character more vulnerable to Adjustment Powers, among other things), the character can get more bang for their character-point buck. That's the theory.

 

In reality, if the "tight character conception" and "specific niche" justifications are allowed to slide, then the Elemental Control becomes something quite different: a reward which grants a cost break to the character to reward the player for coming up with powers which all have the same number of Active Points.

 

Maybe you want that. Maybe you don't. Personally, I do not think that having a set of powers which all have the same number of Active Points is something which merits a reward or a cost break.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

OK, each Gm of course has his own views of how limiting this could be, and certainly the designers give us a clearly vroad range when they publihs things like "helpful witcheries" ECs on their arcetypal characters.

 

But, now that you have explained your position, it seems like you would actually be fine with an Ec defined as sfx "electrical powers" which had an OIF battlesuit limitation, right? The "EC must limit powers" thing is covered by the SFX electircal powers and the battlesuit lim is just the take for this character on the source for those powers.

 

Am i correct that I misunderstood earlier when i thought you were saying an EC electrical powers with OIF battlesuit should not be allowed?

 

 

The common special effect "battlesuit" should not be approved as an Elemental Control because the special effect used is too general and would allow the character access to a broad power set that could be placed in their Control. The special effect that governs an Elemental Control should be specific enough so that not every power could be reasonably linked together under its rational. .

[tesuji]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Again, there is another view, that Ecs are around to provide a cost reduction framework to give 'power based" characters a break so they can remain competitive at the same points with "characteristic based" characters for whom the "free" figured characteristics offset the ec savings.

 

There are those who feel that removing one and not the other would kick the comparative balance between those differing concepts out of whack, assuming same points for build.

 

We're into the arena of game theory, here, but for what little it's worth I'll share my opinion.

 

In theory, an Elemental Control grants a cost break to the character to reward the player for coming up with a tight character conception. Because the player has chosen to focus the character's abilities into a very specific niche (which makes the character more vulnerable to Adjustment Powers, among other things), the character can get more bang for their character-point buck. That's the theory.

 

In reality, if the "tight character conception" and "specific niche" justifications are allowed to slide, then the Elemental Control becomes something quite different: a reward which grants a cost break to the character to reward the player for coming up with powers which all have the same number of Active Points.

 

Maybe you want that. Maybe you don't. Personally, I do not think that having a set of powers which all have the same number of Active Points is something which merits a reward or a cost break.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Again' date=' there is another view, that Ecs are around to provide a cost reduction framework to give 'power based" characters a break so they can remain competitive at the same points with "characteristic based" characters for whom the "free" figured characteristics offset the ec savings.[/quote']

 

If that were the case, it would have been simpler for all concerned if the designers just cut the cost of all Powers by 50% and got rid of Power Frameworks entirely.

 

You can use Elemental Controls however you and the rest of your game group see fit, but I do not think the use you describe matches the designers' intention, neither in the spirit nor in the letter of the rules. I could, of course, be wrong.

[Zanthis]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Just to play a little devil's advocate: If I had a Fire EC, why couldn't I have a power designed to suck the heat out of nearby things to boost my own power. I could easily see a fire character drawing the heat out of a nearby fireplace, thereby extinquishing the fire. Taken to a higher level, a master of fire/heat manipulation could draw the body heat out of a person causing them to freeze. Sure, I'd probably rule that to be a fairly advanced power in the fire set, but it is still reasonable and I'd allow it in a EC.

 

But as to EC in general:

 

A focus done as an EC has one special restriction automatically: if you are deprived of it, you lose the whole thing. Consider SomeAssemblyMan a character with Armor, EB, Strength and Flight in a Battlesuit using only OIF. Now compare him to UniBodyMan, the same powers but inside an EC. Both characters are completely deprived of all their powers if he loses the suit. But SomeAssemblyMan gets no point break for this. In fact, he should probably declare each focus as a separate item so they must be taken individually. Further, never overlook the joint draining effect of EC's, nor the lack of 0 END powers.

 

My basic rule is, if a drain against any one power should affect the rest, an EC may be the right choice. Even a Magic Powers EC or Mutant Powers EC can make sense. If you stick all your mutant powers in one EC, someone with a drain is gonna make you sorry. In fact, if the GM uses power drains often enough, most of your players will stop wanting to place everything in creation in their EC.

 

Also, remember that the SFX grouping of most ECs automatically focus the character into a SFX area that enemies may be able to take advantage of. Sure you've got a Magic EC, too bad those bad guys have 50% Resistant DR PD/ED/PowerDef Only vs Magic Powers(-2).

 

Personally, I've found most characters end up with an EC or a Multipower. They both have advantages and disadvantages. As long as they aren't trying to munchkin the system, all is good. Keep in mind that being a munchkin is relative to the other players. If everyone is happy with their character's performance then it ain't broke, so don't fix it .

[JmOz]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

I do not have a problem with a character having EC: Magic, I consider this to be a reasonable F/X

 

I do have a problem with a character having EC: Mutant, this is an origin.

 

When you get to "Archtype" EC's it gets harder, if you are going to allow it then you have to make sure it is the basics and nothing else.

 

I think the new 0 end rules are actualy a good way to work this as a guideline.

 

For example an EC: Batlesuit, should actualy be EC: Force Generators with flight, FF, etc... bought with an OIF, the basic armor provided is bought outside the suit as is Life Support and enhanced senses

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Maybe you want that. Maybe you don't. Personally' date=' I do not think that having a set of powers which all have the same number of Active Points is something which merits a reward or a cost break.[/quote']

 

Good point! Maybe by the time Hero 6th edition ever gets published, ECs may be removed from the rules seeing that some writers dislike it so much.

 

 

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[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

But' date=' now that you have explained your position, it seems like you would actually be fine with an Ec defined as sfx "electrical powers" which had an OIF battlesuit limitation, right? The "EC must limit powers" thing is covered by the SFX electircal powers and the battlesuit lim is just the take for this character on the source for those powers.[/quote']

 

Yes, a electrical powers EC is fine and it could be focused on a power suit.

 

 

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[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Am i correct that I misunderstood earlier when i thought you were saying an EC electrical powers with OIF battlesuit should not be allowed?

 

Seeing that I am making some headway on this thread's issue. I do not want to confuse things with another. I am going to save it for another thread should the subject comes up.

 

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[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Just to play a little devil's advocate: If I had a Fire EC' date=' why couldn't I have a power designed to suck the heat out of nearby things to boost my own power.[/quote']

 

Yes, you are the devil.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

I do not have a problem with a character having EC: Magic, I consider this to be a reasonable F/X

 

I do have a problem with a character having EC: Mutant, this is an origin.

 

I agree that Mutant is an origin but so is Magic.

 

For example an EC: Batlesuit, should actualy be EC: Force Generators with flight, FF, etc... bought with an OIF, the basic armor provided is bought outside the suit as is Life Support and enhanced senses

 

A Force (say gravity) EC is fine with a armor Focus. The force should be defined.

 

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[JmOz]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

I disagree on Magic: Training in the mystic Arts, Being a Mutant with a gift for magic (Wild TAlent), being created via magic are all origins, Magic itself is not an origin.

 

The Force above is "Force Field" kind of a GL type of effect...

[tesuji]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

If that were the case, it would have been simpler for all concerned if the designers just cut the cost of all Powers by 50% and got rid of Power Frameworks entirely.

 

You can use Elemental Controls however you and the rest of your game group see fit, but I do not think the use you describe matches the designers' intention, neither in the spirit nor in the letter of the rules. I could, of course, be wrong.

 

when the designers publish helpful witcheries in their hero genre book on one of their iconic character, or was it repeated for her evil sister, i have a hard time divining that their intent or spirit was to make ECS de facto limiting in any significant sense.

 

about the only sense i get of the designers intent, from helpful witcheries and the other ECS out there, is that the SFX limit is a SOURCE limit. All the element in an Ec come from a given SOURCE and so if that source if weakened by an attack on any one of them, all the powers are.

 

Do you divine a different meaning from helpful witcheries? if so, what? or are you ok with "divinng" their intent by chosing to ignore some of their published examples?

 

given the estimate of COMMON SOURCE as a justification for ecx, battlesuit seems just hunky dorey.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

Well, I can't speak for whoever wrote up Witchcraft, but there is a character in my campaign that's a "mystic ninja". A typical ninja, but with access to spell magic, similar in write up to Witchcraft. He has an EC, called Mystic Powers, which contains he most often used and practiced spells.

 

They way my and the player see it, these Mystic Powers draw from a pooled reserve of magic he uses to sustain a number of specific spells. If any one of these spells should be disrupted, they all would, for they are linked. This is why I allowed them into the EC in the first place. Otherwise I'd just have made him buy them seperately.

 

I can only assume a Helpful Witcheries EC works along the same lines.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

What is wrong with MPs or VPPs for magic or mystical powers? I would think they would be more effective.

 

 

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[SleepyDrug]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

What is wrong with MPs or VPPs for magic or mystical powers? I would think they would be more effective.

 

 

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I see nothing wrong with it.

 

My take is:

 

Multi-Power :: no restrictions on theme or power types, just so long as they can be "classified" as one power. Remember, MP's get dispelled as a unit. But Power Armor, Arrows, Optic Blasts, Fire Creation, Magic, Telepathy are all good MP SFX.

 

Elemental Control :: must have a widely recognized list of powers. the powers in an EC should require no explanation as to how they fit there. Good examples include weather control, fire powers, ice powers, elemental, demonic, classic power armor, classic super brick, telepathy, telekinesis, or matter control.

 

Variable Power Pool :: good for any SFX that can justify a sizable portion of the power list or vast reworkings of type and modifiers. Gadgeteer, Armory, Magic, Cosmic, Mimicry, and Metamorph are good examples

[Mike W]

Re: Power Armor EC Question

 

To me, Power Armor just does not lend itself well to an EC. Ice powers. Mental powers. Angelic powers even, lend themselves well. For me, ECs have to involve powers inherent in the individual. Equipment already gives you a bonus(focus). Multipowers make sense if you want to limit things but the easiest way to have all(or most) of the powers shut down together is to give the suit an END Reserve(very cheap, 100 END, 5 REC, only REC under special circumstances - i.e. lab or any place it can "plug in") This costs very little(It's a 15 point power with multiple limits). Then anything that shuts down has to cost END(which may be an additional limit for some things). This way, if someone targets the END reserve they can effectively "shut down" the suit by draining or suppressing the END reserve.