Seduction an Everyman Skill

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Well, while I thnk KA's post was excellent in defining the difference clearly between Persuasion and Seduction...with all due respect, I do NOT agree with his conclusion (sorry, KA, it's bound to happen sometime ).

 

My perception is that people are about as successful at persuading each other as they are befriending each other - which is to say not very if the other party is resistant. I think NGD political arguments speak pretty well to this. In fact, I kinda feel the opposite - I think people have a better time seducing each other on the whole than persuading. I find people more capable of weedling their way into a relationship - even if (and very often so) briefly - while I find people less capable of convincing others.

 

Still, I think in both cases the odds are kinda low. 8/less with time added just doesn't do it in my book. I'd guess we start with a base Seduction around 6/less but a base Persuasion around 4/less, and we spend time from there.

 

While we can argue endlessly based on the allegory of our lives, let me point out one thing...man is a SOCIAL animal. We require companionship. On the other hand, I think it's a fair observation that we use argument as our method of defining our individualism. It's like how best friends can argue endlessly for decades.

 

So actually, I'm more inclined to accept Seduction as "Everyman" than Persuasion, in HERO terms.

 

Now, I wouldn't have thought of this were it not for this thread - and I almost skipped it! So good diiscussion!

 

 

Of course you realize, this means war!

 

I think they may eventually end up having to settle on letting all the "social" skills be everyman, because it seems like much of what we see as "proven" about them is based more in personal experience than measurable "data".

 

While I don't go out of my way to use it, I seem to have a reasonable level of Persuasion skill, but a lesser level of Seduction skill. (Which is good, since I am happily married. I would hate for it to go to waste.

P.S. To all the literalists, that was a joke. I understand that the actual skill is about making friends, not getting people into bed.)

 

I once sold a pair of total strangers a washer and dryer.

 

I wasn't working at the store, I was going to pick up the set that I had bought earlier in the week. A mother and daughter were browsing through the machines, looking at a totally different brand/model. I had done a fair amount of research and was quite sure that the set I had bought was better than the set they were looking at, and the price was comparable. After talking to them for about 10 minutes (the salesman who had sold me my set was working with other customers) I talked them into the set I was buying, and handed them over to the salesman so he could write it up. I wasn't "bird dogging" or anything like that, I just wanted them to get the best set their money would buy, so I talked them into it.

 

However, if my aim had been to make friends with them in the Seduction sense, I don't think I would have done nearly as well. Maybe my view of it is too narrow, but I don't just see it as "making friends", I see it as "making friends quickly, with a definite goal in mind that benefits you".

 

In other words, while I did not have a lot of trouble convincing them to buy the washer and dryer on the basis of a combination of logic and B.S., I think it would have been nearly impossible to just start talking to them about some random topic, "make friends" with them, and then convince them to buy the washer and dryer because we were now friends.

 

I guess that is my sticking point. I do not think that normal people lack the ability to make friends with other people. I think they lack the ability to do so quickly, efficiently, and to such an extent that their new friend is ready to perform favors for them.

 

To me "Seduction" is what you see in James Bond movies.

He walks up to the desk where a woman is working, and says something like "You have the most beautiful eyes, why don't we meet for a drink after your shift?"

And then sails right into "By the way, my friend in room 208 wanted me to pick up his key for him, would you be a dear and fetch it for me?"

 

 

Now if all he did was get her to join him for a drink, I would allow that most people have at least some ability to do this sort of thing.

 

But to go from "Stranger", to "Friend", to "Friend that you violate company policy, and risk losing your job, for" in a matter of minutes, seems way past something that all of us are able to do.

 

Again, that is just the way I see it, I may be being too narrow.

 

I shall consider it.

 

(Pretentious ending to a post, or Spock quote from "Mirror, Mirror", you be the judge.)

 

KA.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Of course you realize, this means war!

 

I think they may eventually end up having to settle on letting all the "social" skills be everyman, because it seems like much of what we see as "proven" about them is based more in personal experience than measurable "data".

 

While I don't go out of my way to use it, I seem to have a reasonable level of Persuasion skill, but a lesser level of Seduction skill. (Which is good, since I am happily married. I would hate for it to go to waste.

P.S. To all the literalists, that was a joke. I understand that the actual skill is about making friends, not getting people into bed.)

 

I once sold a pair of total strangers a washer and dryer.

 

I wasn't working at the store, I was going to pick up the set that I had bought earlier in the week. A mother and daughter were browsing through the machines, looking at a totally different brand/model. I had done a fair amount of research and was quite sure that the set I had bought was better than the set they were looking at, and the price was comparable. After talking to them for about 10 minutes (the salesman who had sold me my set was working with other customers) I talked them into the set I was buying, and handed them over to the salesman so he could write it up. I wasn't "bird dogging" or anything like that, I just wanted them to get the best set their money would buy, so I talked them into it.

 

However, if my aim had been to make friends with them in the Seduction sense, I don't think I would have done nearly as well. Maybe my view of it is too narrow, but I don't just see it as "making friends", I see it as "making friends quickly, with a definite goal in mind that benefits you".

 

In other words, while I did not have a lot of trouble convincing them to buy the washer and dryer on the basis of a combination of logic and B.S., I think it would have been nearly impossible to just start talking to them about some random topic, "make friends" with them, and then convince them to buy the washer and dryer because we were now friends.

 

I guess that is my sticking point. I do not think that normal people lack the ability to make friends with other people. I think they lack the ability to do so quickly, efficiently, and to such an extent that their new friend is ready to perform favors for them.

 

To me "Seduction" is what you see in James Bond movies.

He walks up to the desk where a woman is working, and says something like "You have the most beautiful eyes, why don't we meet for a drink after your shift?"

And then sails right into "By the way, my friend in room 208 wanted me to pick up his key for him, would you be a dear and fetch it for me?"

 

 

Now if all he did was get her to join him for a drink, I would allow that most people have at least some ability to do this sort of thing.

 

But to go from "Stranger", to "Friend", to "Friend that you violate company policy, and risk losing your job, for" in a matter of minutes, seems way past something that all of us are able to do.

 

Again, that is just the way I see it, I may be being too narrow.

 

I shall consider it.

 

(Pretentious ending to a post, or Spock quote from "Mirror, Mirror", you be the judge.)

 

KA.

War it is!

 

I can give you a real-world seduction example...I'm not so proud of it, but it was a "business survival" method...and I thinik it's not so peculiar...

 

I had run into a situation with a particularly odd and tyrannical manager (btw, a severe alcoholic) who had thrown me out of his office but with whom I had to work regularly. He was, from all accounts, very hard to work with. I desperately needed "an edge". I consulted another manager, a mutual friend. I asked him what this manager (let's call him "Ops Supreme") liked/disliked. He indicated some sort of list, but what struck me immediately was he liked sci-fi. Perfect!

 

So next time I ran into him I "innocuously' brought up some sci-fi book I had read. Next thing you know he was relating his reading experiences and we were talking about favorite authors. From there I was able to later on persuade him on topics where my logic was super-sound (only) and otherwise work with him day-to-day.

 

I'm not suggesting we can generalize from that singular work experience, but I just wanted to give you a real-world example similar to your sales experience. It wasn't even that hard - just a matter of finding a common interest. Much as when you want an excuse to talk to "that girl" when younger - though that does require some "going-in" PRE just to face up to her! (Good thing those days are over, I'm married as well, gladly so).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I think KA's got it dead on.

 

Zornwil, what you did there wasn't even close to Seduction. That was nothing more than using outside knowledge gained from a contact to grant a situation bonus to your Everyman Conversation roll. You didn't make a friend, you opened lines of communication. If a friendly relationship of any kind was forged afterward, that's only because you both then knew you had a common interest.

 

Granted, I wasn't there, but that's what it sounds like.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I think KA's got it dead on.

 

Zornwil, what you did there wasn't even close to Seduction. That was nothing more than using outside knowledge gained from a contact to grant a situation bonus to your Everyman Conversation roll. You didn't make a friend, you opened lines of communication. If a friendly relationship of any kind was forged afterward, that's only because you both then knew you had a common interest.

 

Granted, I wasn't there, but that's what it sounds like.

iI dunno - it allowed us to strike up a friendship that remained. At a party later on I was able to argue with him over Somalia and people were shocked that I dared "disagree" with him.

 

Of course you bring up a good point - Conversation is a valid angle on it.

 

I still think in terms of working relationships, it seems to me that people who have higher Seduction do better than (edit - meant to say/should add "are more common than") Persuasion by and large, but your Conversation point blurs the line reasonably. You might have picked out the pivotal thing here. Certainly Conversation plays into the "social animal" angle as well.

 

But given we are social animals, I'd continue to argue our ability to seduce (create friendship) is stronger than our ability to persuade (change minds).

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Here's an interesting point...what about a separated skill called "Networking"? That inhabits a ground not well represented by Seduction and is what is often seen in the real world in terms of what we really do. Yes, you could represent it as buying Contacts (or a Contacts pool) but I'm not sure that's right, either - most of us don't have THAT many points!

 

Networking is much more representative of how we are a social animal. We make contacts and alliances, they aren't really Seductions very often, and though do they sometimes manifest in actual Persuasion, it's a bonus to Persuasion applied later. The Networking skill seems employed as a level of success on an Everyman level. Or is it the lower reaches of Seduction?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

iI dunno - it allowed us to strike up a friendship that remained. At a party later on I was able to argue with him over Somalia and people were shocked that I dared "disagree" with him.

 

Of course you bring up a good point - Conversation is a valid angle on it.

 

I still think in terms of working relationships, it seems to me that people who have higher Seduction do better than (edit - meant to say/should add "are more common than") Persuasion by and large, but your Conversation point blurs the line reasonably. You might have picked out the pivotal thing here. Certainly Conversation plays into the "social animal" angle as well.

 

But given we are social animals, I'd continue to argue our ability to seduce (create friendship) is stronger than our ability to persuade (change minds).

If the friendship lasted, then it was founded on solid common interests and general likability. The Seduction skill allows you to make friends despite the lack of such things. Such a friendship rarely lasts, but usually lasts long enough for the character to get what he wants (be it a favor or simply conpanionship for a short time).

 

I'd easily say that any character can also do this with Conversation, Persuasion or a combination of the two, but usually with different short and long term effects (and often needing some outside influence, such as special knowledge about the target).

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

If the friendship lasted, then it was founded on solid common interests and general likability. The Seduction skill allows you to make friends despite the lack of such things. Such a friendship rarely lasts, but usually lasts long enough for the character to get what he wants (be it a favor or simply conpanionship for a short time).

 

I'd easily say that any character can also do this with Conversation, Persuasion or a combination of the two, but usually with different short and long term effects (and often needing some outside influence, such as special knowledge about the target).

Again, unsure. Seduction is often employed via finding a common interest, I'd say, and that's why so many relationships last so briefly (i.e., the foundation was a Seductive "you like beer? so do I!") Of course I'm being more general here as I do think you have a good point.

 

Then again, Conversation "allows a character to extract information...and/or to be an entertaining conversationalist." "Use of this skill takes time" "Although successful Conversation rolls indicate that a character is a witty and intrigueing conversationalist,..." None of these really applied. Whereas Seduction allows one to "gain others' trust...by offering companiionship" It is for "making friends or getting on another character's good side" - obviously, emphasis mine.

 

But then Seduction "makes it easier to gain information or gain favors"

 

I think there's some hair-splitting here in trying to define my prior Interaction. But after looking at the rulebook, I think my attempt was more of a Seduction than Conversation per se.

 

PS - I feel my Conversation was more of a complementary roll - I really didn't say much other than offer up the tidbit and he ran with it. It was intended solely to get on his good side.

[schir1964]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Just a note Zornwil.

 

I noticed it seemed as if you overlooked one of the criteria that KA brought out. The time factor. Being able to make friends quickly, "within minutes", in order to get what you want.

 

You might not agree with that criteria, but your example did not appear to passed that test for the skill.

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Just a note Zornwil.

 

I noticed it seemed as if you overlooked one of the criteria that KA brought out. The time factor. Being able to make friends quickly, "within minutes", in order to get what you want.

 

You might not agree with that criteria, but your example did not appear to passed that test for the skill.

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

Actually I kinda do think it did, although I wasn't explicit. In fact I compared it to Conversation's "Use of this skill takes time," whereas I think the Seduction effort I undertook (boy that sounds weird outside of our parochial context...) was literally minutes, I would posit. The "target" was apparently in some need of kinship, though, I fully grant, as the results certainly exceeded my expectations.

 

But by all means let's pile on the "criticism", I enjoy this and believe me I'm not thin-skinned whatsoever, I know we're talking rules.

 

(PS - incidentally Christopher, have you been posting more lately? Seems like I see you more lately, which is entirely welcome).

[schir1964]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually, yeah, I've been posting more, although I've always been here reading. (8^D)

 

There's been some threads brought up that I actually thought I might add some useful information or questions.

 

I try not to criticise, but simply point out missing information or clarification. I find most of your posts well thought out.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually I kinda do think it did, although I wasn't explicit. In fact I compared it to Conversation's "Use of this skill takes time," whereas I think the Seduction effort I undertook (boy that sounds weird outside of our parochial context...) was literally minutes, I would posit. The "target" was apparently in some need of kinship, though, I fully grant, as the results certainly exceeded my expectations.

 

But by all means let's pile on the "criticism", I enjoy this and believe me I'm not thin-skinned whatsoever, I know we're talking rules.

 

(PS - incidentally Christopher, have you been posting more lately? Seems like I see you more lately, which is entirely welcome).

I still don't think it's an example of Seduction. If the two of you didn't share such a common interest, but you still managed to get on his good side by recognizing one of his interests, then maybe. Seduction has nothing to do with two interacting people who both want to be friends, or friendly, which seems to be the case here as you shared a common interest.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I still don't think it's an example of Seduction. If the two of you didn't share such a common interest' date=' but you still managed to get on his good side by recognizing one of his interests, then maybe. Seduction has nothing to do with two interacting people who [i']both[/i] want to be friends, or friendly, which seems to be the case here as you shared a common interest.

Now, setting aside whether Seduction is Everyman and setting aside whether I "seduced", I think that's a pretty unfair interpretation. A woman who, in the stricter sense, seduces men does so out of a clear common interest and her skill - which might be considerable - might still be limited with other women. Yet she's still a valid - but limited - skill practicioner as such. Similarly, the examples we've seen earlier - "come on have a few drinks, everyone's doing it," "we're gonna be RICH!" all play on common interests. Whenever we meet a person who doesn't have those interests (and there certainly are) these Seduction examples immediately are rendered less potent.

 

Besides, I would say Seduction is in part the attempt to determine that which gets on the other's "good side". I'm not sure how you get on another's good side without quickly finding some common ground, and HERO makes it clear it's not COM-based. As a PRE-based skill, it's pretty open to interpretation how you achieve that.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually, yeah, I've been posting more, although I've always been here reading. (8^D)

 

There's been some threads brought up that I actually thought I might add some useful information or questions.

 

I try not to criticise, but simply point out missing information or clarification. I find most of your posts well thought out.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Thanks, the feeling is mutual.

 

Though my percentage is necessarily less, given volume...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Now, setting aside whether Seduction is Everyman and setting aside whether I "seduced", I think that's a pretty unfair interpretation. A woman who, in the stricter sense, seduces men does so out of a clear common interest and her skill - which might be considerable - might still be limited with other women. Yet she's still a valid - but limited - skill practicioner as such. Similarly, the examples we've seen earlier - "come on have a few drinks, everyone's doing it," "we're gonna be RICH!" all play on common interests. Whenever we meet a person who doesn't have those interests (and there certainly are) these Seduction examples immediately are rendered less potent.

 

Besides, I would say Seduction is in part the attempt to determine that which gets on the other's "good side". I'm not sure how you get on another's good side without quickly finding some common ground, and HERO makes it clear it's not COM-based. As a PRE-based skill, it's pretty open to interpretation how you achieve that.

To steer the conversation back toward whether or not Seduction should be an Everyman Skill:

 

In all honesty, I haven't known many people who are really good at getting on anyone's good side. This is how I define Seduction. Being generally good at getting on generally everybody's good side, or gaining their trust. Sure, I've known some, but I certainly would't say most. To be an Everyman Skill, virtually Everyone would have it. In my experience, Everyone clearly doesn't.

 

Although, everyone is good at getting on the good side of anyone they share common interests in.

 

Additional note: I'm defining "good" in this case as an 8- Familiarity or better. An 8-, while not "professional quality" like an 11-, is still skilled and competent. In "routine" situations, an 8- goes quite a long ways.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

To steer the conversation back toward whether or not Seduction should be an Everyman Skill:

 

In all honesty, I haven't known many people who are really good at getting on anyone's good side. This is how I define Seduction. Being generally good at getting on generally everybody's good side, or gaining their trust. Sure, I've known some, but I certainly would't say most. To be an Everyman Skill, virtually Everyone would have it. In my experience, Everyone clearly doesn't.

 

Although, everyone is good at getting on the good side of anyone they share common interests in.

 

Additional note: I'm defining "good" in this case as an 8- Familiarity or better. An 8-, while not "professional quality" like an 11-, is still skilled and competent. In "routine" situations, an 8- goes quite a long ways.

But do you really feel, given your statement, that so many people can Persuade?

 

I think this is my primary issue: I don't disagree that Seduction is something people are not commonly good at (though 8- is not a good roll, although taking into account the Time Chart in no time one can get a decent roll), but I just dont' see Persuasion that way either. I still contend that, man being a social animal, people are generally better at getting on each other's good side than persuading each other.

 

Put it this way - how often have you heard/seen in heated discussions "well, if we could sit down and have a beer I'm sure this wouldn't be so heated." I think that speaks to the issue, even if sitting down and having a beer isn't exactly seduction but leads to it. Whereas sitting down and having that beer almost never leads to persuasion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

But do you really feel, given your statement, that so many people can Persuade?

 

I think this is my primary issue: I don't disagree that Seduction is something people are not commonly good at (though 8- is not a good roll, although taking into account the Time Chart in no time one can get a decent roll), but I just dont' see Persuasion that way either. I still contend that, man being a social animal, people are generally better at getting on each other's good side than persuading each other.

 

Put it this way - how often have you heard/seen in heated discussions "well, if we could sit down and have a beer I'm sure this wouldn't be so heated." I think that speaks to the issue, even if sitting down and having a beer isn't exactly seduction but leads to it. Whereas sitting down and having that beer almost never leads to persuasion.

I would disagree. Sitting down an having a beer almost always leads to Persuasion. Easier to convince someone of something if you loosen their mind with a little alcohol.

 

As far as Persuasion being an Everyman Skill, I do think that everybody has it to some degree. Your average Joe is out to get something from you, and trust/companionship probably isn't it. Sure, us human's are social creatures, but that's only because we need each other to get what we want. The majority of us are selfish, me, myself and I people who are much more interested in self fulfillment than making friends.

 

Granted, I'm talking about society in general and the "average person". Indivituals are different. But go ahead and some people, even those kind, caring selfless ones, what they want out of life. No baiting, just a simple question. I'll bet you most of them, if not all of them, what something for themself and don't even consider others. Sure, some of them may just answer with a joke answer, but look at what they joked about. They'll have to sit and think about it before they decide they'd rather do something for someone else.

 

But that's just human nature. We live in society to Persuade other to do stuff for us, not to Seduce others into being our friends.

[JMcL63]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction garners trust.

That very much depends. Seduction is a skill that enables you to gain sexual favours without force even from people who are not very inclined to grant them. So you could successfully seduce someone and leave them feeling used and hence antipathetic. If you just used Conversation and Persuasion to gain sexual favours from someone I suggest you'd be more likely to retain the partner's trust' date=' because those skills would tend to have to work in tune with prevailing moods for characters to have their way. Seduction enables you to use a variety of tricks to get round that lack of trust. Hence you could argue that the premise of seduction [i']qua[/i] seduction is an underlying lack of trust rendering gentler methods futile.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

That very much depends. Seduction is a skill that enables you to gain sexual favours without force even from people who are not very inclined to grant them. So you could successfully seduce someone and leave them feeling used and hence antipathetic. If you just used Conversation and Persuasion to gain sexual favours from someone I suggest you'd be more likely to retain the partner's trust' date=' because those skills would tend to have to work in tune with prevailing moods for characters to have their way. Seduction enables you to use a variety of tricks to get round that lack of trust. Hence you could argue that the premise of seduction [i']qua[/i] seduction is an underlying lack of trust rendering gentler methods futile.

 

JMcL63,

 

I think you are actually bringing into focus one of the reasons Seduction is not that common of a skill among normal people.

It does "garner trust", and then that trust is immediately, if not obviously, betrayed. It isn't that much use for ordinary people, because we have to stick around and deal with the consequences of our behavior.

 

One of the reasons the sexual aspect is what most people think of, is that is often the only experience common people have with it.

The legendary "one night stand".

Someone sees another person they find attractive, gains their trust by the implication that a relationship is being developed, gains the sexual favors that they want, and then disappears the next morning, never to be seen again.

 

If Persuasion or Conversation were used for the same purpose, the other party would not feel as "wounded" or distrustful after they realized what happened.

 

Example: Joe is in a bar in Florida. He is on Spring Break. He sees Jane, and wants to sleep with her.

 

Persuasion: "Hey there, Jane. You're on Spring Break. I'm on Spring Break. Both of us came down here to get away from the people we're dating, and have a little fun. Instead of flirting around all night, why don't we just go back to my room and have a good time. Then when we both go back home, we'll have the memory of this great night."

 

Seduction: "Jane, I really feel a connection to you. I know we just met, but I think you might be the one for me. Your school isn't that far from mine, I could come see you on the weekends. We can see each other this summer. And next year, I may transfer there. But there's one thing. Later on, years from now, we are going to be thinking back, saying, "When was the first time we made love?"

I don't want the answer to be: "In some dorm room."

I want the answer to be: "On the beach, under the moon, looking up at the stars, and seeing our destiny in them."

 

In the Persuasion example, everyone knows what is going on.

In the Seduction example, Jane thinks that she is getting ready to do something based on a fictitious relationship that Joe has described.

 

That's why Seduction is not really useful to common people. Whether your goal is sexual or not, you are screwing the other person.

 

In the James Bond example, he isn't going to be around when the girl at the desk gets fired. He doesn't really give a crap. That is the other reason that Seduction, like Interrogation, is not really a "nice" skill. No matter what your purpose is, it isn't really a good way to treat people. Especially not people that you are going to have to deal with again at some point in the future.

 

KA.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction isn't always a bad route. Afterall, maybe Joe really does want a relationship and doesn't live that far away. The trust he gains from using Seduction will remain when he lives up to his end of things.

 

Then again, theres a reason you hear so much more of the other kind of tale from Sprink Breakers...

[JMcL63]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Having checked out the defintion of Seduction in my own book, I had thought that my previous message was way off beam, what with its account of the seamier side of the narrow definition of the skill. So I'm glad you appreciated my thoughts KA. Nice amplification there. Cheers.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction isn't always a bad route. Afterall, maybe Joe really does want a relationship and doesn't live that far away. The trust he gains from using Seduction will remain when he lives up to his end of things.

 

Then again, theres a reason you hear so much more of the other kind of tale from Sprink Breakers...

 

Oops, my bad.

I meant to include the fact that, in the Seduction attempt, Joe was, in fact, lying.

 

But, you are quite right, it is possible that it is not always the tool of someone evil.

One of my favorite movies is "The Music Man", in which the title character makes a career of seducing music teachers to further his con games, until he finds that he has actually fallen in love.

 

Well, unless something really outrageous comes up, I think I am about done here. I know I didn't start this thread, but I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of discussing the topic.

 

Thanks to everyone involved,

 

KA.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I would disagree. Sitting down an having a beer almost always leads to Persuasion. Easier to convince someone of something if you loosen their mind with a little alcohol.

 

As far as Persuasion being an Everyman Skill, I do think that everybody has it to some degree. Your average Joe is out to get something from you, and trust/companionship probably isn't it. Sure, us human's are social creatures, but that's only because we need each other to get what we want. The majority of us are selfish, me, myself and I people who are much more interested in self fulfillment than making friends.

 

Granted, I'm talking about society in general and the "average person". Indivituals are different. But go ahead and some people, even those kind, caring selfless ones, what they want out of life. No baiting, just a simple question. I'll bet you most of them, if not all of them, what something for themself and don't even consider others. Sure, some of them may just answer with a joke answer, but look at what they joked about. They'll have to sit and think about it before they decide they'd rather do something for someone else.

 

But that's just human nature. We live in society to Persuade other to do stuff for us, not to Seduce others into being our friends.

Hmmm...I think we're at an impasse.

 

But we're still friends.

 

 

Seriously, I think I'll agree to disagree barring dramatic new evidence.

[zornwil]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

By the way, anyone else here been cut off at a bar for arguing politics with one of their best friends?

[JMcL63]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Once more on this Seduction and trust thing (ie. the real world and not HERO). Part of my understanding on this is based on a guy I know who has slept with over 200 women. This means he must be an expert seducer. I have no idea how he does this (and cannot therefore, relate this to KA's little Spring Break vignette). My point here is that, without trying to moralise about this guy's behaviour, how does he do it?

 

In the end (and here I am diverging from KA's interpretation because the one thing I am sure about re. this guy is that he wouldn't stoop to offering the notion of a relationship to win a one night stand- I believe him to be more honest and straightforward than that), I can only conclude that he must, in some sense or other be applying some kind of pressure, however subtle. I say this because you can't end up with a record of seduction like this guy by accident. You have to go out with the intention of scoring. You find your target (after a false start or two maybe?) and decide that you're not going to take no for answer.

 

And this is my point I guess: in the real world, using conversation and persuasion means that you will take no for an answer; using seduction means that you won't. In the former, the object of your desires is a co-subject of the transaction; in the latter the object of your desires is also an object of the process. Hence my previous remarks. That's about it really.

 

In game terms, if I am on the mark here, then it makes me think that the HERO seduction skill is misnamed, or, if not misnamed, then misdefined.

[KA.]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Once more on this Seduction and trust thing (ie. the real world and not HERO). Part of my understanding on this is based on a guy I know who has slept with over 200 women. This means he must be an expert seducer. I have no idea how he does this (and cannot therefore' date=' relate this to KA's little Spring Break vignette). My point here is that, without trying to moralise about this guy's behaviour, how [i']does[/i] he do it?

 

In the end (and here I am diverging from KA's interpretation because the one thing I am sure about re. this guy is that he wouldn't stoop to offering the notion of a relationship to win a one night stand- I believe him to be more honest and straightforward than that), I can only conclude that he must, in some sense or other be applying some kind of pressure, however subtle. I say this because you can't end up with a record of seduction like this guy by accident. You have to go out with the intention of scoring. You find your target (after a false start or two maybe?) and decide that you're not going to take no for answer.

 

And this is my point I guess: in the real world, using conversation and persuasion means that you will take no for an answer; using seduction means that you won't. In the former, the object of your desires is a co-subject of the transaction; in the latter the object of your desires is also an object of the process. Hence my previous remarks. That's about it really.

 

In game terms, if I am on the mark here, then it makes me think that the HERO seduction skill is misnamed, or, if not misnamed, then misdefined.

 

Okay, I know I said I was done, but this post is more from a sense of "responsibility" than from trying to prolong the thread.

 

JMcL63,

I don't mean to attack your post, but I would like to ask a few questions just to clarify things a bit.

 

1) How many of these women have you seen yourself? I am not referring to their looks, I am referring to "bumping into them" when you are with your friend. The reason I ask, is that I once went out on a date with a girl I worked with. I didn't know it at the time, but she was extremely promiscuous, like your friend. The way I found out was, we went out to a bar to listen to a band, and then we went to a few more bars that she liked. (By the way, don't think I am in the habit of getting plastered, but we liked the same kind of music, and she knew some good places.) Anyway, over the course of the evening, everywhere we went, at least a couple of guys at each place would come up and say things like: "Hey, Angie. I haven't seen you in a while. Give me a call sometime." They weren't being rude or offensive or anything. They were just guys that she had obviously "known" in the recent past, and they were being friendly. She introduced me to them, and she made it clear that she was with me (at least that night), but it was obvious what the connection was between her and them.

All I am asking is, have you had similar experiences when out with your friend?

 

Unless you live somewhere that has hundreds of nightspots, the odds are pretty good that you should have run into quite a few of your friend's "conquests" by now.

 

Also, you should be able to tell by the way the women act toward him, not just by his pointing at a girl across the room and saying: "See her? We did it."

 

Please don't take offense at me asking these questions.

 

But I know from personal experience that people who are highly intelligent can sometimes be naive in interpersonal relationships. For one thing, I had worked with the woman above for over a year when we went out, and I had no idea of her character.

I also was friends with a guy for a couple of years who turned out to be a pathological liar. Literally 80% of what he had told me about himself was fabricated. But since I had never been around anyone like that, and he kept his lies fairly mundane (not stuff like "I climbed Mount Everest", but stuff like "I was on my High School Football team, until I got hurt."), it took quite a while for me to discover the truth.

 

2) Your friend may have slept with over 200 women. But were you around when he did it? (Well, not watching , but were you around when he "picked them up".) I ask because of the great let down I had when I saw a program on "wife swapping" years ago. Back in the 70's, you would hear wild news reports of couples that would get together and swap partners. Now this wasn't anything I was interested in, but, like most people I daresay, I was thinking along the lines of "Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise meet Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey, for a night of unbridled sexual adventure".

 

Until I saw a talk show covering the topic.

 

Go to the nearest Wal-mart.

Find the two least attractive men, and the two least attractive women, and imagine them breaking the frame on a bed at the nearest Motel 6.

That is pretty much the reality of it. I am not saying that attractive people never do this sort of thing, but everything I have seen about the real people who do this makes it hard for me to sleep at night.

 

I am just saying that, if your friend's idea of a "conquest" is someone that you wouldn't even want to see with their clothes on, that could explain the high numbers.

 

3) Okay, back to basics. Let's say your friend has really slept with 200 women, and let's say they were all fairly attractive. I am perfectly willing to concede both points. That does not mean that your friend has a great Seduction skill. For one thing, the Seduction skill is not really about getting people to sleep with you. It is about making them think you are their friend.

Once they think you are their friend, then you might be able to get them to

a) help you steal something

give you information

c) hide you from the authorities

d) sleep with you

The thing to remember is, that just because someone sleeps with a lot of people, it doesn't mean that they Seduced them. It is how they convinced those people to sleep with them.

Obviously a serial rapist does not have to be good at Seduction.

A guy who has slept with hundreds of prostitutes does not have to be good at Seduction.

A very active male porn star does not have to be good at Seduction.

All of these men have slept with a bunch of women, but they didn't use Seduction to do so.

 

But I am not saying your friend is any of these.

 

What could be going on is that your friend is good at picking out easy targets.

 

A fisherman either has to know how to attract fish, or know where a lot of hungry fish are. If you find a lot of hungry fish, no skill is required.

 

Some guys seem to have an innate sense of women who are emotionally vulnerable. They go right to the girl at the party who just got dumped by her boyfriend, for someone that he said was "more attractive".

The girl is upset, not thinking straight, and looking for a chance to feel "attractive" and to "show her ex that guys still want her".

Getting into bed with someone in that situation requires no skill of any kind.

Just the willingness to "score" under those circumstances.

 

If you know how to find targets that are depressed, hurt, drunk, needy, mentally unbalanced, etc, you don't need to have any skills, or make any promises, you just have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror.

 

And, again, I am not saying this is true of your friend. He may be a great, fun-loving, guy, who has just lucked into meeting a lot of great, attractive, fun-loving girls, who just happened to be in the mood for some "no strings attached" sex, when he met them, and everyone walked away happier for the experience.

 

Or, he may have some hypnotic ability to get women to do what he wants.

 

(Or, he could be full of B.S.)

 

That's why I'm asking the questions. Not because I doubt you, but because I am actually interested, and would like a few more details.

 

KA.