Points to pull the trigger

[Short Shot]

How do you deal with stuff that makes sense, but would cause problems the rest of the game?

 

The specific case I was thinking of was someone with a pistol vs someone with TK with fine manipulation. I know that if I can prevent the hammer from falling, or the firing pin from moving forward to strike the primer, the pistol is rendered useless. I know that the way most people hold a pistol (one hand wrapped around the other), if I hit the magazine release they go from 7 to 20+ rounds down to 1. On some pistols, with no magazine in the well you can't even pull the trigger. If you can spot them without them having a good shot at you, another techneque might be to push on their trigger finger. If its a full auto weapon with a full magazine the consequences might be... interesting. If you can keep them from lifting their trigger finger, or even just keep the trigger down (2.5 to 7 lbs force, usually), they can't get another shot off on any semi-auto weapon.

 

The technique is reasonable, and well within the abilities of a fairly basic and weak person with low strength in TK. How do you deal with keeping this type of thing from getting unreasonable?

 

Short Shot

[Mike W]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

First, remember that all of these things would require the "fine manipulation" adder. No adder, no attempt. Second, impose penalties for the size of what you're trying to hit. A mechanism smaller than a dime is going to have one heck of a DCV bonus. That will make it possible, but VERY difficult to hit such things if the person holding it is skilled(since the target number would be the person's DCV PLUS the size modifier of the item, at least a -4) And remember, TK requires line of sight, so there is a good chance the TK character will get spotted after the attempt.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

While I agree with all the issues raised above, I'm inclined to let TK accomplish feats like this. The TK character has paid for fine manipulation, as well as TK - why shouldn't he benefit? The gun wielder has received (I assume) the point savings of an OAF focus, and maybe "Real Weapon" as well. This is part of those limitations.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

I agree with both of the above. (I was going to type it in, but I see that they already have, so there you go.)

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Don't forget the other, more obvious application of simply pulling the gun from their hand. There is little reason (other then an elaborate PRE attack) to go grabbing individual components and rendering a gun useless when you can fling it out the window or into your own hands.

 

Which raises another question, the one I thought you were going to ask when I read the subject. What would be the dynamics behind getting someone to shoot themself with their own gun, particularly without actually removing it from their hands?

[Short Shot]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Well, I figured hitting the magazine release is only a couple pounds pressure, and pulling even a stiff trigger is less than 10 lbs, normally. Also, once the trigger has been pressed, it takes almost no force to keep it held down to prevent another shot from being fired. I figured it would render the firearm useless with a lot less effort than ripping it out of someone's hand

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

I figured it would render the firearm useless with a lot less effort than ripping it out of someone's hand

 

The scarce commodity for TK is not force: Strength is cheap. The scarce commodity is finesse. It takes far more effort (as measured by the a quantity of character points to make the attempt feasible) to telekinetically pop the magazine release than it would to simply grab the gun.

 

Besides which, anyone competent with a pistol will have their weak hand cupped partly under the magazine, anyway.

 

handgun grip

[Zeropoint]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Only if they are holding the gun with both hands AND using the Weaver stance. In the isosceles stance, the weak hand is wrapped directly on top of the strong hand, with the weak thumb over the strong thumb (DO NOT wrap the weak thumb around the gun--this leads to a phenomenon known as "slide bite") and the weak index finger either just under the trigger guard or wrapped around it. Both arms are extended fully, lining up the pistol with the shooter's centerline.

 

Zeropoint

[zebediah]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

From what was just stated here, it almost sounds like guns should have some sort of limitation representing the fact that TK can render them useless (real weapon, -1/4?), or you should force telekinetics who want to pull stunts like that to add a "dispell (gun-derived powers)" power to represent it...after all, the gun is just a special effect.

 

Come to think of it, how would you build a power that would cause a gun to pop it's magazine and be useless until reloaded? Or drained a lazergun battery, for that matter?

[Armitage]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

From what was just stated here' date=' it almost sounds like guns should have some sort of limitation representing the fact that TK can render them useless (real weapon, -1/4?), or you should force telekinetics who want to pull stunts like that to add a "dispell (gun-derived powers)" power to represent it...after all, the gun is just a special effect.[/quote']

 

Seems like it would just be a Grab, performed with Telekinesis. And vulnerability to Grab is part of the OAF Limitation.

And pointing someone's gun at himself would just be a TK application of the "Grab and Redirect" maneuver from Ultimate Martial Artisrt.

[Guest Kolava]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Remind me not to get in a gunfight with Zeropoint

 

Anyway, about the gun, I think the best thing to do would be to use the rules for targetting small objects, and maybe the "redirect" technique from UMA.

 

EDIT: Wasn't there a rule for buying martial arts with TK somewhere? I can't find it, but it may apply here when it comes to working with someone else's gun.

[Short Shot]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Just to say something that adds absolutely nothing to the validity of the rest of what I say, I can put 10 rounds of .45 in an inch and a half at 20' using the grip Zeropoint described. Slowfire, of course, not rapid fire.

 

The time I was thinking of using these techniques would be situations where the PC was not in direct line of fire, likely from concealment. A sentry standing duty with the rifle at port arms, or on someone searching for the character, say, with flash light in one hand and pistol in the other. It seems on either a stationary target or a slow moving one should be as easy to hit as a button for a doorbell or a light switch on a wall, if the PC with TK can take his time to get it right the first time.

 

Also, once you squeezed the trigger, what would be the rules about keeping it held down? On the escape, the final obstacle in our path was a sentry with an M-16 slung from a shoulder. There was no cover tosneak up on him. After a brief, whispered conversation, Longhand reached out with his mind and squeezed the trigger back into the grip and held it back. With the crack of the single shot, Crazyfist and 'Dozer surged out of cover and charged the sentry. With the trigger of his semi-automatic weapon held back the sentry was unable fire a shot while the heavy hitters charged over the open ground to take him down and out of the fight.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

I can put 10 rounds of .45 in an inch and a half at 20' using the grip Zeropoint described. Slowfire' date=' of course, not rapid fire.[/quote']

 

Presumably the target wasn't moving or shooting back at you.

 

It seems on either a stationary target or a slow moving one should be as easy to hit as a button for a doorbell or a light switch on a wall' date='[/quote']

 

People are always at least 1/2 DCV, if they are conscious.

 

Also' date=' once you squeezed the trigger, what would be the rules about keeping it held down?[/quote']

 

You don't need special rules for that (or anything else in this thread, really). There are already rules for grabbing and holding things, including foci, and there are already rules for hitting very small targets.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Presumably the target wasn't moving or shooting back at you.

 

An excellent point. Given that the rules for hitting one's target with a ranged weapon are written to simulate combat, I have believed for some time that a substantial bonus should be applied to characters firing a weapon out of combat. By the rules as they stand now, it is no easier to hit a target while standing at a shooting bench on a pleasant Saturday afterrnoon than to hit the same target while jogging along (half-move) dodging bullets, flying debris, and the occasional plasma bolt.

 

That doesn't seem right.

 

On the other hand, accounting for this would add complexity, and I suppose that most players would like to imagine their characters as cool enough to fire accurately in a combat situation.

 

Zeropoint

[Maelstrom]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

As Kolava points out, you can remove the gun from the target's hand. Having established your ability to do this, anything else can be a special effect. If the gun is OAF, it can be rendered useless with a grab -- it doesn't really matter HOW it is made useless.

 

Once it's grabbed, I imagine that a STR v. TK contest for control of the gun could be made.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Remind me not to get in a gunfight with Zeropoint

 

KS: Firearms isn't going to help me all that much when the lead starts flying. I've got WF: Small Arms, but a low DEX (definitely no higher than 8) and no CSL's.

 

Speaking of KS: Firearms, how high is Rally Vincent's (of Gunsmith Cats)? Maybe it's actually a superpower of some kind with a Skill special effect.

 

Zerooint

[zornwil]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

Please pardon the metagame approach, but I think the best approach is to discuss with the player how this is one of those things that great as a one-time event but becomes unbalancing over time. Discover how he wants to play and find the common ground, whether that means ending up writing a proper repeatable "balanced" power or agreeing he'll use it more on a plot device basis. With mature players this is way easy, with immature players it takes more teaching and negotiation but can be done so long as they are interested enough in RPGing.

 

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

[zebediah]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

An excellent point. Given that the rules for hitting one's target with a ranged weapon are written to simulate combat, I have believed for some time that a substantial bonus should be applied to characters firing a weapon out of combat. By the rules as they stand now, it is no easier to hit a target while standing at a shooting bench on a pleasant Saturday afterrnoon than to hit the same target while jogging along (half-move) dodging bullets, flying debris, and the occasional plasma bolt.

 

That doesn't seem right.

 

On the other hand, accounting for this would add complexity, and I suppose that most players would like to imagine their characters as cool enough to fire accurately in a combat situation.

 

Zeropoint

 

 

There's Brace and Set, which make target practice a lot easier than gunfire in combat, especially if you can take a lot of time.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Points to pull the trigger

 

...I think the best approach is to discuss with the player...

 

Always a good policy.