zebediah

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks Hey, I'm not claiming I support it -- just that's its a conceptual possibility. Consider it reductio ad absurdum if you like. If you woudln't accept for things other than a "killing attack," why not, and who do you accept it for a killing attack? We all know where you'd stand on this particular idea, bblackmoor. This is for people who support the "stun lottery." Or, if you're using one of the alternative to 1d6 * 1d6 (mostly seems to be dice/3 * (result of some table)), would you accept that as a reasonable sustitute for mechanics other than killing attacks?

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks One thing that hasn't been brought up much is the idea of adopting the 1d6*1d6 mechanic more generally. Let us use the approximation that 4d6 ~= 1d6*1d6, as the KA does (1d6 RKA, +1/4 to increase the stun multiple, is just shy of 19 points). Would you be willing to allow, at no change in cost (or even as a slight limitation--after all, KAs aren't affected by nonresistant defenses) that substitution for every power that can have a 4d6 roll? Flashes? Mind Control? Luck? Normal Energy Blasts? What is it about 1d6*1d6 that implies lethality, or visa versa? Would you be willing to take that final, scary step and allow someone an attack that does 1d6*1d6 body, and 1d6*1d6*1d6 stun? That is, after all, only a roll of three dice for something that would otherwise require 5 or 16 dice to be rolled...and if the character wants an attack that has a huge range of possible damages, how would you build it?

Re: Eliminating Killing Attacks Just a little more gasoline on the fire... Re: aimed shots that do more damage. First: How much does armor, head only cost? How about DCV, head only? Would you allow these in your games? Would you consider an "arms race" between "DCV, head only" and "OCV, only to negate the penalty for aiming at the head"? Hero already seems to have a halfway decent was of giving people with too much OCV the opportunity to do more damage, in the 5 point CSLs can be used as 5 points of attack damage as well. A little philosophical note on hit locations, and why they seem to exist: Hit locations seem mostly to be a concession to characters with too much OCV, allowing them to trade in some of it for a damage multiplier. Given the option of trading in OCV for a damage adder, and trading in OCV for a damage multiplier on a reasonably large attack, which is more tactically sound? If I can double my damage by taking a -8 to hit, or I can add 8dc for taking a -8 to hit on my 20dc mega-attack, there's an obvious choice there. When numbers get big, multiplication is a scary, scary thing. Hero also has a great way of making your attacks always hit, without boosting your OCV to obscene levels--double the cost of your attack power. For +1/2, AoE (hex) and +1/2 (no range penalties), on OCV of more than 9 is overkill. The more possible ways you have of doing a single thing, the more difficult balance is, as the same effect should have a nearly equal point cost. Allowing OCV and damage to be interchangable, particularly as a multiplier, makes any notion of balance a major pain. (I recall quite vividly, from one GURPS campaign, just how powerful hit locations could be...our two archers would regularly do 8x damage (2x from being peircing, 4x from going through the opponent's eye into his brain...) with no blowthrough, meaning that they could trivially take out critters the rest of the party didn't stand a chance against. Between that and the not-very-well-balanced GURPS "weaponmaster" advantage, they had little incentive to spend points on anything other than skill with bows in terms of maximizing combat effectiveness) Now, if you're just using the hit location table instead of 1d-1, then you're really (mechanically, and we're talking mechanics, not sfx) substituting a different probability curve to multiply by, with the sfx of hitting your opponent in different places. Which is all well and good, but shouldn't be confused with using a hit location system--not saying that Dust Raven is, but that it should be made clear.

Re: Need Help With A Detect You might also apply "set effect" to the images portion of this joint power, if it can only portray what is essentially an "I'm here!" signal. Otherwise, it could logically be used for communication, by making the image, say, the sound of a voice.

Several otherwise interesting threads have been drowning in pennies as everyone puts in their $.02 on "killing attacks" and "normal attacks" over and over and over... So here's a place to explicity do that. I'm sure there have been other threads for that before, but it's obviously still a bone of contention. Perhaps if people talk about it here, they won't feel the need to talk about it everywhere else. Here's my suggestion, to rekindle the flame, as it were... Eliminate "killing attacks." Don't make it a +0 advantage on normal attacks---just eliminate them. Instead, make ED and PD cost 1.5 points per (just like armor), and put a limitation on it, "does not prevent damage from [Attacks whose SFX would logically do killing damage against me]" These attacks, for a normal human, include bullets, sharp objects, fire, and electricity when well grounded. Depending on how frequent they are in the campaign, the disad would be worth more or less, but "-1/2, power loses about 1/3 of its effectiveness" is a good guideline. This also allows for things like vampires in V:TM, who take lethal damage from fire-based attacks, light-based attacks, sharp objects, and pokey wooden things to the chest, but who do not take lethal damage from guns (Fortitude is complete DEF for them). Or for an insect race with squishy insides and a chintinous exoskelliton that's good at deflecting blades but it more vulnerable to blunt trauma, like being beaten with clubs and falling. Or for "creatures of living lightning" who are fairly resillent unless being attacked with electricity, magnetism, water, or conductive metal, but a metal sword and a metal pipe both rip right through'em just as easily. A wooden spear, no matter how sharp, isn't any more effective than a wooden club. Regardless, the point is that "protects from all corporial damage" should be the default, and "not against certain types" is a limitation. If you like the stun lottery, make that an advantage/limitation on a normal Blast... +0 is "does 3 pips per DC", +0 is "roll 1 die per DC", +1/2 (just guessing here) is "roll 1 die per 3 DCs", and you might be able to take things like +2, "roll one die for every 10 DCs." Such a generalized advantage could then also be applied to adjustment powers, mental powers, flash attacks, healing, entangles....anywhere you're rolling dice for effect. Well, maybe not "luck." That would be too strange. So....thoughts? Comments? Flames? Bring'em on. I'm sure they'll be interesting.

Re: cannot be escaped with teleportation Heck, "x-ray" senses do, and they're both pretty much examples of Indirect in action...

Re: Power Construction Help Needed Triggered Transform, triggered by your death (that would be one non-recovering charge) that target's the person who just killed you with enough transform to give them the clairsentience and the triggered transform. The only wierd effect of this is that having lots of body can prevent you from picking it up. Having power defense prevent you from being "infected" with the precog seems to make sense, but may not be desired. Alternately, the "power" is actually a creature (bought as an ally, I guess) that rests in an empty adjascent dimention, and has precog, Usable As Attack (indirect +1/2, transdimentional "only on the boss" +1/2), Limited Range of Targets (just the current boss) with some sort of disadvantage that forces him to use it every so often, and note that the last person who killed the boss is now the boss... hmm. You should probably buy the creature some unusual transdimentional sense to keep track of "the boss" or whoever kills them and becomes "the boss." You might even buy the creature resurection regeneration, just in case soem clever fellow figures out where that only-occasionally-useful migrane is coming from, EDMs over there, and kacks the critter.

Re: Side-effects of extreme speeds Indeed, buying side-effects on some of your movement seems like the best way. Either than, or you could assume everyone has a Succeptability to Travelling Too Fast in an Atmosphere. Sonic booms are more interesting--I've sometimes seen these built as Area Effect cone attacks, linked to high speed. But how would one price it if they always went off when you exeeded a certain speed, whether you wanted them to or not? It's not "always on" because it has a prerequisite, and it's not a side effect because it can often be useful. Or is it both--a discount on the movement because of the side effect, and an attack linked to the movement?

Re: Disadvantage based XP The one thing I would note is that this would need to replace "frequency" on most disadvantages--otherwise you get more points to build your character because your disadvantage comes up often, and you get more points in XP because your disadvantage comes up often. I might eliminate the 'frequency' of disadvantages and just give players an XP whenever a disadvantage is a hindrance at the level bought. You might want to cap the total that can be gained in a given session, and do some calculations based on the expected life of the campaign, etc., given that you've just introduced the concept of "banking XPs, with dividends" to the players. You might want to look at Nobilis, another system that gives rewards when disadvantages come up.

Re: Disad cost for being a disembodied brain? http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh01xergon.htm is from one of the Digital Hero magazines (free sample) -- scroll to the bottom. Xergon is essentially a brain (well, soul) encased in a big metal eyeball. Might be useful as inspiration.

Re: Monarch Butterfly Monarch butterflies are toxic, which is why birds don't eat them. Sort of like how the ravagers won't eat a Vampyr. Three things that come to mind that haven't been mentioned... "Life Support--Ravagers." Not sure quite how many points, but it "feels" appropriate. Alternately, a telepathic mind control, no range, area effect (one hex?), 0-end persistant (and always on), that conveys one command: Don't Eat Me to a limited class of targets: Ravagers. Given that you're only targetting a single class of thing, buy just enough power with Set Effects to always work...or buy a little more, not set effect, if the occasional curious ravager finds himself wondering if THIS vampyr is taistier than all the others... Last, but probably not what you actually want, build them with a strong positive reputation "bad for ravagers to eat." If everyone knows this, it might have a negative component as everyone expects the vampyr to be able to deal with ravagers. If it's just something ravagers know ("known only to a select group of people") go with that instead. ...or, if you wanted to make them actually like a monarch butterfly, buy every vampyr a zero-range NND triggered EB with a limited range of targets (just ravagers)--for that "you can eat him, but it's pure poison" effect. EDIT: that should probably be a damage shield, actually...especially if Ravagers always attack by attempting to eat.

Re: More questions I may be incorrect, but I believe that multiform forms are all build on the base campaign points, and any additional points must be made up with disadvatnages...so if your 250 (+100 disads) character can turn into a 1000 point monstrosity, that monstrosity needs to be taking 750 points in disads. Ow. Multipower frameworks are huge benefits (I saw someone build a quite effective superhero in a 75+75 fantasy game by having most of the points tied up in a big multipower, one of the slots being taken up by persistant desolid...), but they're not compeltely without limitations...the "drain one, drain all" effect on ECs and the "only so much power available at a time" problem with multipower pools. Mostly, though, I think GMs are supposed to watch them. [/QOUTE] The first character I really tried to build using sidekick was one that I couldn't, really. What I wanted was to use the Summon power...pretty much the same thing you'd want to use to build Homonculous. I tried to do it (in a completely illegal way) by buying a follower with a bunch of limitations, and having my follower have a huge multiform, one form of which had lots of REC, regeneration, and EDM (to an empty, "sanctuary" dimention). It was special. You might also use Duplication to build you homoculous power, if someone has a full copy of Hero. Othewise, getting a little gremliny helper who can pop out of your body is probably best handled (in sidekick) by buying it as a follower, and making sure it has EDM between "Where I am" and "elsewhere." Heck, with the 5-point doubler, buy a few. I don't remember if you get hurt when your homonculi die, but you may be able to simulate something like that with a succeptability. Another major thing I found missing in Sidekick was the Trigger advantage, and a lot of the variations on clairsentience and teleport. I don't remember what "Natural Agitator" does in Aberrant, but it sounds to me like you'd buy it as some for of Mind Control or Presence...possibly with things like Area Effect or even (this isn't in Sidekick, is it?) Megascale. I mean, imaging being able to implant in the mind of _everyone_in_the_city_ the idea that their corrupt officials were screwing them over, and it was time to cast off their chains! Have it take some extra time, too, to keep the cost down, and you're taking the Set Effect limitationm but for many people it's probably something they're not increadibly disinclined to do anyways...the rulers of the world better look out. One thing to keep in mind--sidekick, for all its coolness, is an intro book with much of the more confusing, difficult, and complex stuff cut out. If you really want Hero to live up to its "Yes, we CAN build just about any power you can imagine" reputation, you really want FREd.

Re: Universal Framework Proposition [LONG] Also worth noting...I tend to think Hero does a pretty good job of being balanced, but people do complain about the Power Frameworks (mostly ECs) a fair amount. Seeking something that will give very similar point totals to the basic FRED system is a noble goal, but if you think the current system is unbalanced in some way, you may want to consider what sort of balance you're ultimately looking for.

Re: Universal Framework Proposition [LONG] Well, loud people outside my window are keeping me awake, so in the interest of doing something fun as long as I ca't sleep... There are some good notions in here. Especially, I like the idea of a separate "slot" cost, independant of the pool and the powers in it. That allows for an actual point-thing to limit when you want to say "changing between spells in my magic multipower takes a full phaze of concentration, remembering the arcane jestures needed," or "in order to switch the settings on my uberweapon, I have to focus my complete attention on it, leaving me at 1/2 DCV" without having to take those limitations on the actual casting of spells or the firing of the gun itself. Heck, it could allow you to set up different conditions on switching to different slots...Exalted has an artifact called "The Infinite Weapon" (a gross exageration, like most names in Exalted) that's basically a big hammer. You can spend your full phaze transforming it into any of the other weapons in its library, or you can reflexively turn it back into a big hammer if you need to...like, for example, if the powerbow you've turned it into just isn't going to help you parry the advancing barbarian's axe swing. Or you could have some spells that require you to consult your grimore to prep the casting, by applying a Focus to the slot, but not the slot power--once you've refreshed your memory, you don't need to keep looking at the book to cast. The slot cost may want to be higher, to better reflect the impact that the cost of changing it has. I'm not sure how one would simulate a slot that's both hard to change into and hard to change out of ("Setting the dimentional disruptor belt to allow you to linger between dimentions (a Desolid affect) is onerous, and it is no less onerous to recalibrate it so it can again use its normal dimenitonal window powers (a multipower of teleport, EDM, and clairsentience)"), and there may be unbalancing affects if you, say, can apply Triggers to slots (My giant multipower pool switches to my persistant self-healing power automatically if I ever get knocked out, making sure I'll be back in the fight again in just a phaze or two!), but it sounds like it would add a lot of flex to power constructs... Remember, any "universal power construct" has to be able to do VPPs as well as Multipower pools. And limitations on when and how you can change powers is a major part of VPPs. Other than that...ECs seem to do an entirely different things the Multipower pools, in that all the powers in an EC can be used at the same time, at full value. I don't see how that's emulated in your General Power Framework...though, to be frank, I'm not sure that it should be. ECs may be better done with limitations ("power is drained whenever any other power on this list is drained") and possibly disadvantages ("[some/Most/All] the character's powers are [inconvenienced/highly weakened/crippled] when this [common/uncommon/rare] condition is met"...sort of like a Physical Limitation) But if you want to work ECs into this...well, I don't see how, so either a bit of an explanation or a bit more thought should go into the idea. Definitely a cool idea, and I'm looking forward to watching this thread. Being a Pure Math geek, going down to the building blocks of things and seeing if multiple facets of something can be reduced to a few core principles is right near the top of my "10 most fun things in the world" list.

Re: damage conversion Damage Resistance doesn't protect much against the Stun Lottery, which is the other major difference between 3d6 EB and 1d6 RKA. I don't know what one would use to make up for that...maybe just buy some Damage Reduction, "only against the stun of killing attacks"? I don't think there's generally a way of making one type of attack affect you like another type. I mean, if there was, you could build a character who gets Flashed by Drains, took damage from flashes, and lost Strength every time he got hit with an EB. The concept is intriguing...but screwy.

Re: Universal Framework Proposition [LONG] I'd be most wary about the fact that you can get 2-3 AP worth of power in your pool for only one point. That seems to be asking for trouble. I may be misunderstanding, but, without a prohibition that there are no "single power" pools, you can get: 23 points for a "generally drainable" pool of 70 AP. 2 points for a single slot. 8 points for a single 70 AP power with the -9 "static defined slot power" limitation. We now have a single, 70 point power without any particular limitaitons for 33 points. 45, if you don't allow the "limitation." Say we actually spend the 35 points for a non "generally drainable" pool, and buy all static slots, at the above noted cost of 10 points apeace. A pool with N static slots is now 35 + 10N points. Under the normal multipower pool rules, it would be 70 + 7N points. The new pool is a better deal until you have 12 slots...which is a lot. And, unless I'm misreading, making the slots fluid would increase the cost of each slot power by 1 point... so New Cost: 35 + 11N Old Cost: 70 + 14N the new framework would always be cheaper, and just become more and more of a better deal as you gain more slots.

Re: Points to pull the trigger There's Brace and Set, which make target practice a lot easier than gunfire in combat, especially if you can take a lot of time.

Re: Using 1-second turns instead of SPD chart Here's a related, but different idea...the whole "phaze/turn" structure is pretty well embedded in Hero, and works well. But it seems that, for most things, the basic unit of time is not the "phaze" but the "half phaze"--most actions take a half phaze. Looking down the "Combat Maneuvers Table" the only things I see that don't take a half phaze or are zero phaze actions are Set (1 phaze) and escaping form a grab, which takes a variable amount of time. And taking a recovery, though that's not listed as a "combat maneuver." What I'm wondering is, why not make "speed" be 2 + Dex/5 and be the number of "actions" you get in a turn, where an action is all those thigns that are normally now a half-phaze action? Spread them out evenly across the time chart, and if you have more than 12 actions, you get an action in every segment, plus an extra action in every segment that would have an actions for (your speed - 12). "full phaze" actions (like taking a recovery) just take 2 actions. "Attack actions," which were half-phaze actions that ended your turn, would have the additional restriction: you cannot take an attack action if your last action was an attack action. You many not take a 0-phaze action after an attack action (or possibly, you cannot take a 0-phaze action before an attack action), to prevent switching your multipower between your Big Attack and Big Defense too quickly. Do people thing this results in too many zero-phaze actions? That it's wonky in other ways? Under that change, someone with 6 actions (old SPD 6) could, in fact, have 3 recoveries and attack twice in a turn, including the post-12, but I don't think that's a huge (or unbalancing) difference...

Re: What Value would you give this limitation It sounds like what you want is some sort of "spell battery" that effectively doubles the effectiveness of your END when casting spells. So you can cast spells out of your END reserve, depleting it... And the only way of recharging it is to spend personal END casting spells. That sounds like what you want to buy is recovery for your END reserve that has the "limited recovery" modifier, "only up to Personal END spent on Spells this turn." I don't know how much of a limitation that would be, perhaps around -1? If you want the END reserve to recover END *when you actually spend your personal endurance* for some reason...well, you couldn't use the above technique unless you could buy down the time required for your ER recovery. You might be able to do it with a no-end, persistant, self-only, only-up-to-the-spell-end-I-spent-this-phaze healing/aid-up-to-starting-value of your ER.

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll? Well, sort of...except that it does have a good chance of hitting multiple times. IIRC, the rule on people ganging up on someone to make them easier to hit basically decreases the target's DCV by 1 for each person to makes their coordination roll, only to those people who make thier coordination roll, reducing DCV to no less than half. Which means the more people are attacking, the lower the target's DCV, and the more likely each one is going to hit him...

Re: OCV bonus or extra roll? It's an entirely different approach, but...what if, rather than thinking of Autofire as being a succession of attack rolls to determine the "bonus to OCV," you instead thought of it as one person, coordinating a bunch of attacks to decrease the DCV of his opponent? That seems to be a decent description of what one is doing--filling the space with attacks such that there isn't really any space to dodge.

Re: Points to pull the trigger From what was just stated here, it almost sounds like guns should have some sort of limitation representing the fact that TK can render them useless (real weapon, -1/4?), or you should force telekinetics who want to pull stunts like that to add a "dispell (gun-derived powers)" power to represent it...after all, the gun is just a special effect. Come to think of it, how would you build a power that would cause a gun to pop it's magazine and be useless until reloaded? Or drained a lazergun battery, for that matter?

Re: Recovery and Endurance logic Just a quick check--it was mentioned that if an endurance reserve bought with the Focus limitation was dispelled, it would have to be fixed before it could be used again. Is that a general effect of the focus limitiation (begins thinking of "dispell guns" powers), or a specific interaction of Focus and ER? Mike--what do you mean by "natural?" Charges and END cost are two different ways of dealing with the "cost" of a power. One "burns up fuel" once per time the power is used--the other does so in proportion to how many APs of Powers are used. Without the physics that a game system enforces, it's often impossible to tell from source material which is which--the only logical way is to watch how often the character uses their powers at less than full force, as that would only be econimical if they're using END instead of charges. There are some nice writeups of magic drawing from an ER...the most obvious one is Killer Shrike's rewrite of the AD&D mechanics, where you get so many "spell levels" of effect per day. Or the brief descriptions of the mechanics of magic in Robert Asprin's Myth series of novels, where one gathers magical energy inside one's self or draws it from the ambient ether when casting. Not having the energy on hand means you have to draw it first, slowing down spellcasting, and when in the vampiric dimention where there's hardly any ambient magical power, it's to some degree gotten around by drawing as much as you can over a long period of time to fuel toned-down spells for a short while. In fact, the best way to build that would probably be to have a spell multipower and an ER with no recovery--the recovery for it being a slot in the multipower. the GURPS "unlimited mana" rules would also be a good example of an ER system for spellcasting that has no focus and you couldn't do with charges very effectively.

Re: Affects Solid World OK, this is cheating, but instead of buying desolid, why not pick up Extradimentional Movement, 1 location in a single dimention. 20 points. Takes the character to an empty dimention which has a 1:1 location correspoindance with this dimention, but which is entirely empty--or inhabitied only by ghosts and other psychic, noncorporial things. The character can only move between two corresponding points of the real world and this extradimentional plane, which we can call the Astral Plane for simplicity. Buy Clairsentience for the sight group, the hearing group, and the mental group. That's a base cost of 40 points. Apply the advantage Trandimentional (to the real world only) for +1/2. That takes it up to 60 points, which exceeds your cap a bit, but could be broken into a number of clairsentiences of 45 AP for two senses if you'd like that better. Apply to the Clairsentience "No Range (-1/2)," "Only usable when in Astral Plane (-1/2)," and "Clairsentience point is vulnerable to BOECV, Flashes, and a single tight special effect (-1)." That last one is based, roughly, on the limitation on clairsentience in the Mystic Masters Astral Form build. This takes the total down to either 20 or 30 points for the clairsentience...and the 30 points is if you want to be able to smell while desolid. Now buy your Mind Control extradimentional (only to the real world), a +1/2 advantage rather than a +2 advantage. And with extradimentional clinging, you can have possession pretty easily. Sure, it now costs you 6 END per turn instead of 4 to "remain desolid," but you also have the option to go blind and invisible as a 0-phaze action...or room to take another disadvantage on their clairsentience saying that it must be on all the time you're in the Astral Plane. It also points towards some other interesting constructs, like an "astral capture" that lets you drag other people, body and soul, into the Astral Plane.

Re: A look at Damage Reduction Here's an odder question--Her generally follows the rule of One Attack, One Defense. Now, if you consider Damage Reduction to be a special kind of armor, it sticks to that...but it is a different way of doing armor. What would happen if you could buy EB and KAs this way? "This attack does enough damage to take away half your current stun and body, unless reduced by DR" In Diablo II, the Sorceress has a skill called Static Field, which is Area Effect, Doesn't Effect Heroes, does a % of the enemy's current life in damage for each enemy, reduced only by Lightning Resistance, which is effectively DR: lightning attacks (though it comes at many more levels of gradation). Now, they don't have PD or ED like Hero does, so how this would interact with armor is anyone's guess... Yes, I realize it's a crazy idea. But it does point out part of the reason that Damage Reduction is wierd. It almost looks like it should have a cost somehow based on the active point cap in your campaign....