VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

[lrojas]

Hi, not sure if this should go here but since it involves adoubt i have with the Wizardry Magic System of Killer Shrike and i didnt know if some one would benefit from my questioning i decided to ask it in this manner.

 

The definition of the VPP for Wizardry requires several things...

 

* Only Arcane Magic (-1/2)

* Only Change Spells With Spell Book & Study Time (-1/2)

* All Spells Must Have 1 Charge (-1/4)

* Variable Limitation (-1/2; each Spell must take -1 of Limitations from Extra Time, Concentration, Incantation, Gesture, Limited Range, Restrainable By Spell Components Pouch, or RSR: Magic Skill vs. Spell Resistance in any combination at a MINIMUM)

 

Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 2.5 Real Points

Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 17 Real Points

 

the point of discustion came from the fact that acording to my friend the "All spell must have 1 charge (-1/4)" is a wording of the charges limitation ( but there is no charges limitation that costs -1/4), i am of the opinion that it is not the case because that would imply the whole VPP would have only one charge. So how can we explain this inside the Hero Mechanics?

 

Also he said that you cant buy a Variable Limitation that imposes a specific Limitation uppon another power. Since he comes from Champions 4th Ed. I sugested that maybe is a Fantasy Hero thing or just something from FREd. Some clarification would be apropiate here if anyone could provide it.

 

The final point is that if a character where to have an initial pool over 15 ( once more, acording to my friend ), say 90 pts, he would save 4 pts from it... he did the math and apparently you do save yourself 4 pts but since this is suposed to be bough in increments of 15 you dont really get the saving becasue you always round off in favor of the player..

once again i would apreciate clarification on this point.

 

Thanks in advance

[John Desmarais]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

Hi, not sure if this should go here but since it involves adoubt i have with the Wizardry Magic System of Killer Shrike and i didnt know if some one would benefit from my questioning i decided to ask it in this manner.

 

The definition of the VPP for Wizardry requires several things...

 

 

 

the point of discustion came from the fact that acording to my friend the "All spell must have 1 charge (-1/4)" is a wording of the charges limitation ( but there is no charges limitation that costs -1/4), i am of the opinion that it is not the case because that would imply the whole VPP would have only one charge. So how can we explain this inside the Hero Mechanics?

 

The limitation is a limitation on the pool (therefore it affects the pool control cost) that limits the type of powers that can be used in the pool (only those that have the 1 Charge limitation). It is not a Charge limitation - it is a limitation that KS made up for his magic system that happens to have the work "charge" in it. The Hero system allows for the creation of custom limitations; and; although it only gives sparse guidelines for how to assign values to them, this one seems ok to me.

 

Also he said that you cant buy a Variable Limitation that imposes a specific Limitation uppon another power. Since he comes from Champions 4th Ed. I sugested that maybe is a Fantasy Hero thing or just something from FREd. Some clarification would be apropiate here if anyone could provide it.

 

Ah, a fundementalist - "if it's not spelled out exactly in the book it can't be done". To which I say, a Variable Limitation with restrictions is allowed if the GM says it's allowed. It is also a very "in genre" construct. (In fact, I think the Fantasy Hero book actually talks about something similar in the chapter on creating magic systems).

 

The final point is that if a character where to have an initial pool over 15 ( once more, acording to my friend ), say 90 pts, he would save 4 pts from it... he did the math and apparently you do save yourself 4 pts but since this is suposed to be bough in increments of 15 you dont really get the saving becasue you always round off in favor of the player..

once again i would apreciate clarification on this point.

 

I'm not really sure what you're asking here.

 

Thanks in advance

[lrojas]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

Thanks,

 

first off, i am not dizzing Killer Shrike, i have nothing but the utmost respect for his ideas and opinions, is just that i am not used to the mechanics of such an open system and my friend see things too much in the champions light. So i ask for clarifications when he and i cant agree on a point or even after all his efforts to make me see something i still cant grasp the idea. I have found that asking several ppl and listening to diferent point of views helps me understand more the issue or the idea i am strugling with.

 

with that out of the way,

 

the point question. Killer Shrike says in the VPP definition:

Control Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 2.5 Real Points

Total Cost per Spell Level (15 Pool) = 17 Real Points

 

wich would imply that to have a pool for spell level 6 ( 5 * 17 ) it would cost me 85 pts

 

but if i buy it the normal way

lvl 5 pool = 5 * 15 = 75

ctrl pool = 75 / 2 = 37

 

we have -1.75 of disadvantages for the pool.. wich would be aplied to the cost of the control pool.

 

37 / ( 1 + 1.75 ) = 37 / 2.75 = 13.45 = 13

 

75 + 13 = 88

 

in this case we saved 3 pts

 

so that was our question...

[arcady]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

Any rules system fundamentalist is going to fReAk OuT when the read the chapter on magic system design in Fantasy Hero.

 

There's a good deal of hand waving going on in there.

[Rick]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

It's not really hand waving if the rules say, "divide real cost by 3". That's an optional rule. No more dogmatic hreo...I love it. We can finally design our own system.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

Im on my brother in laws computer in the Czech Republic currently, with an odd keyboard and limited time, no book, and no notes. So this is the short version

 

 

As far as the Charges Lim, there are three types of Lims which can effect the Control Cost of a VPP; this particular one is a Limitation which affects the types of Powers that may be in the VPP. It is not the same as the actual "Charges" limitation, it's simply a mandate/restriction that all Powers in the VPP must have 1 and only 1 Charge.

 

The net effect of this on this particular style of Magic is to enable/enforce 1 shot "fire & forget" type interchangeable spells. However, since the Magic system in question (Wizardry) benefits form a price break on the number of Spells in the VPP, the only real impact of this restriction is that it prevents the use of the Autofire Advantage, and does force a cost hike for the ability to cast the same spell multiple times per day bcs paying the RC multiple times for the same Spell is more expensive than upping the Charge total in almost all circumstances. Finally, via Continuing Charges it's possible to escalate the actual Charges Limitation taken on the individual Powers/Spells into an Advantage on some Spells/Powers, and thus it wouldnt be fair to allow a huge Restriction typeLimitation on the Control Cost of the VPP.

 

All in all, I considered the net effect of this restriction to be a -1/4 in as much as it does impose some limit on the VPP as a whole, but not much of one.

 

 

 

 

As far as the cost is concerned, I think your friend is both too literal minded, and too intent on looking for loopholes, free points, and other means of cheating the intent of the game system. Im assuming its the same friend that was trying to steam role you with a absurdly limited VPP in another thread.

 

In this particular case, he is completely incorrect in his assertion as to point savings.

 

For purposes of building VPP's into Package Deals on the website, it is necessary to do some encapsulation for purposes of notation. However, there is no non-standard math going on. The cost of a Wizards VPP is determined by the size of the Reserve/Pool and the Control Cost modified by applicable modifiers as usual.

 

The intent is not that Pool only be bought in increments of 15 Pool. The intent is that the Magic System categorizes Spells into increments of 15 points as a conceptual model, and that Spells have a "level" determined by their AP/15. As a side effect of this 15 point increments of Pool in the VPP are significant and practical increments to purchase in. However a character could buy Pool up 1 point at time if they wished, and this would cost the Pool total plus the Control Cost calced off the total Pool.

 

 

If your friend doesnt understand this basic function of how VPP's are costed, I would recommend you not allow him to play a character that has one.

 

 

 

 

As a side note, "6th Level Spells" such as you note would be 15 x 7 = 105 AP. 1-15 AP = "0 Level Spells", aka Cantrips in Wizardry.

 

 

To be quite honest, I would recommend that you avoid using VPP's at this point in time; they are easily the most abusable construct in the system, and it sounds like you have the classic scenario where a abusive point-whoring powergaming player knows enough more about the system than you do to bullshit you on erroneous builds and flawed mechanical interpretations. Just forbid the use of VPP's for now until you are more seasoned as a GM. Try a MP or EC based system, or the dirt simple Turakian divide by three or a skill based system. When youve got a campaign under your belt and feel more confident, then consider a VPP.

 

Trust me, the VPP is a great construct and you can do some really neat, fun things with it. It's a huge tool for the system, opening a lot of options for complex concepts. However, someone feeding their inner munchkin can ruin a game for everyone via abusing a VPP. Save yourself the headaches on your early attempts at running in the HERO System and go for a more finite magic system. JMHO, YMMV.....

[lrojas]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

Thanks Killer,

 

i really apreciate you taking the time to answer even if you are Away from your Computer.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPP for a Heroic Fantasy Setting - Need clarifications

 

No problem; I love to see new Fantasy HERO campaigns spring up, so anything I can do to help. I would just hate to have you turned off to the system because one of your players was being a jerk and ruining it for everybody.

 

 

Im a big believer in the idea that people should master the basics first and then move on into more complex concepts after they have a frame of reference. My website combines basic, intermediate and advanced elements in a "buffet line" kind of set up. The idea is that you take what you like and leave the rest behind the sneeze shields.

 

Wizardry and Adeptology, being VPP based, are inherently more complex than some of the other Magic Systems. So is Spellweaving, being essentially a Skill/VPP hybrid. Sorcery is kind of intermediate -- its based on the MP mechanic, but has a non-standard implementation of it. Magecrafting, Aeldenaren, Totemic Shamanism, and Piedragemas are all simpler systems.

 

You could also use the Psionics System and call it "magic" instead. Here's a blurb from another page of the website that mentions that idea:

Campaign Tone notes

Option: Psionics As Magic

One way to handle Magic in Epic Fantasy would be to get rid of Psionicists as a character type and use the Psionic Rules to handle Magic Use, just changing the SFX of the Powers from Psionic to "Magic". Replace the Discipline Power Skills with 1 or more "Magic" Power Skills as appropriate to the setting. For more reliable magic, consider allowing Spellcasters to buy off the Requires a Skill Roll Limitation from individual "Spells", or remove the requirement to have them in the first place.

 

EXAMPLE: In the World of Skularria there are the Five Facets of Magic: Sorcery (Power over Mind; replaces PowS: Telepathy), Wizardry (Power over Matter; replaces PowS: Psychokinesis), Wending (Power over Space and Time; replaces PowS: Psychoportation), Sortilege (Power over Sensation and Information; replaces PowS: Clairsentience), and Vitolomy (Power over Body; replaces PowS: Psychometabolicism). Some particularly skilled masters of Magic can learn advanced Spells that combine elements of many Facets of Magic; this is called High Magic (replaces PowS: Metapsionic).

 

EXAMPLE: In the World of Masertika the practice of Magic, called Willing, is a nearly lost art but magical forces are easily manipulatable by any fortunate enough to know how. A single Power Skill: Willing Way replaces all of the Psionic Disciplines.

 

 

I very much appreciate your questions, so please keep them coming. This particular one has shown me a flaw in my coverage of the subject, so when I get home Ill add a document related to "Tips for beginning GM's" or something to that effect, and Ill add a complexity rating to various pages of the content indicating Basic, Intermediate, Advanced or something along those lines.

 

Thanx!!!

 

 

 

BTW, walked around Prague yesterday. Its an incredibly beautiful city. Amazing architecture. Wish I had more time to absorb it all, but we fly to Tenerife in the Canary Islands in 7 hours. I wont have any access to a computer there unless I find an internet kiosk, so Ill be completely offline for two weeks more than likely. Keep asking questions if you have them however, and Ill answer them when I get back.

 

Thanx!