lazarus Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Just read the weekly update... 428K words? How long does it take to lay out something like that? When do you expect it to ship? And ... good work on that, Steve. I'm sure it'll be an enjoyable read when eventually I get my hands on it Does it include some of the modified rules I keep reading that are in DC? What about FH stuff? Laz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Re: sheer madness... Fred-re is simply too big. That's it. I quit. Back to Fuzion for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: sheer madness... I don't know if the above wasd in jest, but it is a reality for many non Hero people. If the new book is even thicker, it will only make it that much harder for me to sell my players on it. Use a smaller typeface, so you can cut page count. Mutants and Masterminds pulled the trick of a small type face in order to get a book with a lot of content down to a thin size. However they went so far that a lot of people felt the opposite of how they feel about Hero - people felt ripped off. Find a middle ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: sheer madness... The time required for layout depends on how many long nights Andy is willing to put in. In terms of raw hours, I'd have to ask him, though. But the ironic thing is it will actually take him significantly less time to layout than 5E. He knows InDesign better now, has more templates and shortcuts set up, that sort of thing. It's currently scheduled to ship sometime in late October. Not sure what you mean about "modified" rules. It doesn't have any of the optional rules like, say, Multifire, Lingering, or mass combat. But where published books have already covered subjects that are in the Rules FAQ and worth putting in the core book, that material will get carried over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: sheer madness... Part of the thickness comes from the chapters that have nothing to do with game mechanics .. and those are the extra chapters I really like. Especially since it goes into running various types of campaigns, genres and all that, being that HERO is a generic non/multi-genre game it needs that. And quite frankly I wish that other companies would start putting chapters in for various types of campaign styles and how to run them within the system. Though, it's moot now since I only play Hero anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim_McCoy Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: sheer madness... If the new book is even thicker, it will only make it that much harder for me to sell my players on it. Seems to me that SK is good for this situation. Strips away all the crunchy genre info, leaving just the chewy rules center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted September 12, 2004 Report Share Posted September 12, 2004 Re: sheer madness... Yes, but peering over the corner of the page of Sidekick they will still see the copy of 5E sitting on my end of the table, and the thinking is that 'eventually I have to read that as well'. The bok is just too physically big, which is more a factor of its typeface and layout than its actualy text content - at least when I actually put it side by side with other books I own that's the conclusion I draw. The content of the book needs to continue to appeal to Hero fans, but something about it should also be made to draw in newbies, or at least not repell them. This is something that can be largely achieved with only a slight shift in layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: sheer madness... Seems to me that SK is good for this situation. Strips away all the crunchy genre info' date=' leaving just the chewy rules center.[/quote'] How many licks does it take to get the center of a HERO POP? As for the thickness ... It isn't all that much thicker than the set up for other games, Take 3EDnD, while you can stop with the PHB, most ppl will read the DMG as well, then if you use a prebuilt gameworld (which many do) you have that sourcebook ... PHB+DMG+ForgottenRealmsSettingBook = About the same content and word count as HERO. Just in more books, that overall costs more money, that overall does less for you. Ok that last overall was my opinion. But here's my point: One Big Book = One Item Purchased = One Thing To Read vs. Lots O' Lil Books = Many Items Purchased = Lotsa a stuff to read. to get The Exact Same Place. With HERO you don't have to buy Champions to get something about how to run a SuperHero Game in a basic format. With 3EDnD (to continue with an example) you don't have ANY genre information regarding the variants of even just Fantasy. And you paid for your books to boot. bleh. if you're a gamer intimidated by a thick book, you're not a gamer. You just like rolling dice and adding up damage. (ok, that's an opinion too...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: sheer madness... It's a question of illusion. With the 3 DnD books you get the equivalent in Hero of the 5E book, Fantasy Hero, and the bestiary (yeah, the DMG does have genre info about running fantasy). They are thick when you stack them together, but alone, not so much so. The visual presense does a lot to make people wary. If the book does not need to be as bulky as it is, if making it appear to be a lighter read can be done without actually cutting any content, then doing so will make it less of a scare off for new players. And frankly, most of the gamers I've known over the years don't like to read... It frustrates me to no end, but's in my experience it holds true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazarus Posted September 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: sheer madness... know what? I'd prefer to buy a thicker book that was better laid out with a typeface that was easier to read. I'll take a semilarge typeface and clean, functional layout over less thickness. Especially if some of that thickness comes from page quality too. Laz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: sheer madness... Cut the type down by 2 points, and remove another 1 in the spacing between lines - it might actually be -MORE- legible. Contrast 5E to the typeface of MnM, which is probably on the smaller end of the spectrum, to see what I mean. You could go down tht far, further, or not as much. But 5E's face is a space hog. A smaller font means less pages which means lower cost to print. A slightly thinner book also means it is less likely to scare away new people. Old hats to Hero know what's inside, and know they'll like it. It's not like Fuzion where you had a system change, people already into Hero are not going to be turned away by it, so you need to find a way to make more new people get turned towards it. The size of the book is one of the major things that turns them away. Yet the same word count can be done in a smaller book with superior layout. Sometimes I think some people oppose things just out of fear of change, even when the change is to something that can be shown to be an improvement. In this case, anything which cuts page count without cutting content or readability would be an obvious improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Re: sheer madness... I think one issue is that HERO is FOR the crunchier gamers who want something big and robust. And with the sidebar space, one can take notes easily in the book (though I don't). It isn't just marketing for the HERO afficionados - it's marketing for all gamers who want a robust, detailed game. I think it's okay with a big book, even if that scares off those afraid of complexity. if they're scared by book size, perhaps they really shouldn't play HERO. I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing, either - I'm suggesting they smiply aren't the target audience and they'd probably truly prefer something lighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Re: sheer madness... Thing is... Is Hero really complex? In some ways yes, but in others no. I remember back in the days of 3E we used to recruit people to Hero away from other systems by telling them how it was so rules-lite compared to the competition. About half of Hero's complexity is in the presentation and the packaging. Most of the other half is in the math of dealing with advantages and limitations - which factor mostly into Champions. Imagine keeping the sidebars, keeping the detail of explaination, keeping ALL the text as it is right now --- and still managing to shave off maybe 20 to 50 pages, or even more, and still be very legible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Re: sheer madness... I was being facetious. Do we really need more people who can not read or do simple math involved in our beloved game? Still being facetious. Put the flame thrower down and step away from the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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