Dispel & Summon

[Guest C_Zeree]

The character concept is a Villan that calls himself the Conjurer. Really he is a scientist that has super high tech holographic and force projection gagets that allow him to create solid holograms (ala ST holodeck).

 

He has a summon that creates solid holograms to do his bidding, basically instant hechmen. The summon is bought with an IAF, he has six drone spheres that when activated produce an being he desires to do his bidding. The spheres are then covered by the hologram.

 

Now how do I allow him to turn the holograms off? So he and his "henchmen" can simply disappear for a great finish.

 

I was thinking a massive Dispel against summons, but with the Lim only agaist Conjurer's Summons (-1 1/2). Does this sound reasonable, and can Dispel even be used this way?

[Arthur]

I would think that a +1 Amicable Advantage would cover that. It says "a Summoned being can choose to leave at any time". If it is under total control, then said choice is under the control of the summoner.

 

Next question is whether Summon is even the right Power construct for this. They aren't really "beings" in the sense that Summon is intended for.

 

However, this is one of those deals where it still seems to be the closest approach. The important thing is that a fair number of points be spent for the effect you are getting. A Summon with a +1 seems about right.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arthur

Next question is whether Summon is even the right Power construct for this. They aren't really "beings" in the sense that Summon is intended for.

A summoned thing does not have to be a "being". In the rules FAQ it even states that a character can Summon a base. It seems there there is a lot of latitute there, and the simplist definition is: if it has a character sheet, it can be summoned.

[Monolith]

Under the Summon power it specifically states that a Dispel must be used to turn the summoned thing off. So from that I would say you need a Dispel, but I would not give a limitation of that magnitude. Dispel Summon, Character's Summons Only: -1/2, maybe -1.

[Arthur]

It also says the Summoned being can leave anytime it wants. When you have total control, that becomes "anytime YOU want". IOW, you can make it "want" to leave.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arthur

It also says the Summoned being can leave anytime it wants. When you have total control, that becomes "anytime YOU want". IOW, you can make it "want" to leave.

I think after you see the information in the USPD you might have a better understanding of how this works.

 

And just as a matter of role-playing, if you summon something and then must always make it "want" to leave, I as the GM would make the summoned being stop coming on a regular basis when called just because it thought you were being mean to it.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Thanks for the response. I was brainstorming at work during luch. I did not have my book with me, but even if I did I would have still pondered over the limitation for the Dispel.

 

Thanks

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think after you see the information in the USPD you might have a better understanding of how this works.

 

USPD?

 

And just as a matter of role-playing, if you summon something and then must always make it "want" to leave, I as the GM would make the summoned being stop coming on a regular basis when called just because it thought you were being mean to it.

 

There are many cases (such as the subject of this thread) where that makes no sense whatsoever. These are programmed holograms. Are you saying that an artificial construct with no free will will think you are being mean to it? That'd be like expecting my computer to get miffed at me. That's why I put "want" in quotes. They have no ability to "want" anything. They simply follow instructions - just like your CPU.

 

In fact, IIRC, things like robots or automatons are an explicit example of the +1 Amicable Advantage.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arthur

USPD?

UNTIL Superpowers Database.

 

There are many cases (such as the subject of this thread) where that makes no sense whatsoever. These are programmed holograms. Are you saying that an artificial construct with no free will will think you are being mean to it? That'd be like expecting my computer to get miffed at me. That's why I put "want" in quotes. They have no ability to "want" anything. They simply follow instructions - just like your CPU.

 

In fact, IIRC, things like robots or automatons are an explicit example of the +1 Amicable Advantage.

My point is, the rules state that the only way to have something summoned leave is to Dispel it. Buying Dispel costs the character points. Your version of making them "want" to leave is nothing more than a tactic to try and get Dispel for free. You are trying to save the points by making the summoned create want to leave of its own accord.

 

You should not be allowed to make a summoned creature "want" to leave, but if a GM is going to let you do it (and thus basically giving you the Dispel power for free) then that same GM should allow that summoned creature to not "want" to come from time to time. That way the player does not abuse the privilage of the free Dispel. It's a balance issue. Sometimes if you give something for free, you have to take away some of the unending possibilities as well, IMO.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Monolith

My point is, the rules state that the only way to have something summoned leave is to Dispel it. Buying Dispel costs the character points. Your version of making them "want" to leave is nothing more than a tactic to try and get Dispel for free. You are trying to save the points by making the summoned create want to leave of its own accord.

What do you think about a homebrew adv to summon: +1 Dispell at Will?

 

Doing advantage math you double the active cost of the power by doing this. If a character bought dispel soley against their summons at the same cost of the summon they would get enough dice to do it every time if averages work out (3.5 is the average of 6). They effectively pay the same points either way.

 

All and all I think I am going to use dispel in a multipower.

[Victim]

You could just include a self destruct power built into the summoned creature. Maybe XDM to nowhere, 1 charge, never recovers, etc. Then since you have "summoned guys have no free will" advantage, you can just make them use that power when you don't want them around. Or a 1 point forcefield with a suicide side effect.

 

I don't think a character should have to pay for NOT having fanatical holographic minions that stick around all the time because you can't make them leave. It's like paying for OIHID. You'd mainly want to Dispel your summon if you could lose control of it.

[Mavnn]

I'm with Victim here - as long as the summoned creatures have a way of leaving, you can tell them to (given you've paid points to have them obey you already). EDM to the 'RAM' dimension seems a good choice.

 

IDHMBIFM, but I don't recall dispel being stated as the 'only' way to get rid of summoned creatures. In fact, I seem to recall that it states most summoned creatures are assumed to be able to travel back to where ever you summoned them from. I always read the dispel bit as a way of a) getting rid of creatures you fail to coerce/control and getting rid of someone else's summoned creatures.

 

Michael

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Monolith

UNTIL Superpowers Database.

 

 

My point is, the rules state that the only way to have something summoned leave is to Dispel it. Buying Dispel costs the character points. Your version of making them "want" to leave is nothing more than a tactic to try and get Dispel for free. You are trying to save the points by making the summoned create want to leave of its own accord.

 

You should not be allowed to make a summoned creature "want" to leave, but if a GM is going to let you do it (and thus basically giving you the Dispel power for free) then that same GM should allow that summoned creature to not "want" to come from time to time. That way the player does not abuse the privilage of the free Dispel. It's a balance issue. Sometimes if you give something for free, you have to take away some of the unending possibilities as well, IMO.

 

Mon, I think that is a little bit restrictive.

 

I as a GM have no problem with a player being able to send back his summons IF the thing wants to leave (and at the +1 level it will want when ever you want it to). By the way it is easy enough to put both powers (Summon and Dispell:Summon, only my own summons) in a MP

[JmOz]

On further thought

 

No book on hand, but would dispell actualy work to send a summons away? Seems to me that Summons is like Entangle, an Instant power that hangs around afterwards. If so would dispell work on it?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz

By the way it is easy enough to put both powers (Summon and Dispell:Summon, only my own summons) in a MP

I agree completely; and basically that is my whole point. The rule as to how to make a summoned create leave is stated right with the Summon power. If the rules say you need to use Dispel to make a summoned character leave, then you should have to buy Dispel. If you buy it in a MP, then you get it for just a couple of points. You might not agree with the rule, I do not agree with the rule, but when answering questions on the message board I prefer to use official answers. Each person can modify their game from there.

 

Now there is an alternate rule from the FAQ, and this rule is carried over into the USPD with some alterations:

 

Q: How many tasks does a Summoned creature with the Amicable Advantage perform before leaving?

 

A: The GM is, of course, free to have an Amicable Summoned being stick around as long as he wants, but apply the following as a default rule:

 

Friendly EGO/4 tasks

Loyal EGO/3 tasks

Devoted EGO/2 tasks

Slavish EGO/1 tasks

 

As always, it’s up to the GM to decide what constitutes a “task.†For combat, perhaps each Phase of fighting equals a task; for ordinary household chores, perhaps it’s each day of service. Keep common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance in mind, and you should be fine.

So based on that it is possible to make a Slavishly Loyal "want" to leave just by forcing it to use up all of its tasks. I would personally rule that the summoner can make an Amicable creature leave when ever he wants, but that is not stated in the official rule, and would be considered a house rule.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz

No book on hand, but would dispell actualy work to send a summons away? Seems to me that Summons is like Entangle, an Instant power that hangs around afterwards. If so would dispell work on it?

You are just severing the mystic/psychic/mental bond which brought the creature to you in the first place. Game mechanic-wise you exceed the AP in the Summon with a Dispel or Suppress. Just as you can Dispel and Energy Blast coming at you, you can Dispel a summoned thing come at you.

[JmOz]

I asked the question to steve about the dispell (and entangle as I see them being related)

 

The problem with the severing the bond is that it only works for some F/X, take Aqua Wimp from the old SUperfriends cartoon:

 

His ability to summon sea life could be bought with summons (with appropriate limitations, or maybe not, them ariving on there own power and being in the area was definatly a F/X in some episodes), but assuming after the whale was there you dispelled it, the whale was not going to disapear, nor is it going to stop listining to Aquaman (It's ruler)

 

With other effects it makes sense for it to remain but loose the amicable (Someone who can summon a demon slave)

 

And for yet more F/X it makes sense for it to make them go poof (the holosummons above).

[Guest C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Monolith

You might not agree with the rule, I do not agree with the rule, but when answering questions on the message board I prefer to use official answers. Each person can modify their game from there.

 

So that being said, may I inquire as to other's house rules on the matter of dispelling a summon?

 

Also I can't say I understand the "tasks" rule provided. Does this mean how many tasks the being will be willing to perform until you have to persuade it to stay some more?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

So that being said, may I inquire as to other's house rules on the matter of dispelling a summon?

My house rule is that an Amicable Summon can be sent away without any problems. You tell it to go, or you turn it off, or whatever the SFX involved in the Summoned are.

 

Also I can't say I understand the "tasks" rule provided. Does this mean how many tasks the being will be willing to perform until you have to persuade it to stay some more?

A standard Summoned character will preform the summoner's EGO/5 in tasks. Once it has done the tasks it will leave. So a person with a 12 EGO can Summon something and it will perform 2 tasks before it leaves, dissipates, whatever. A "friendly" would do 3 tasks (12/4), a "loyal" will do 4 tasks (12/3), a "devoted" would do 6 tasks (12/2), and a "slavish" will do 12 tasks (12/1). Once the tasks are done, the character would have to re-summon (and take all the penalties associated with that) to get the creature to do more tasks for it.

 

With Amicable Summoning you are getting something willing to help you, but it is not your Follower, and thus is not something you get 100% use out of, all the time.

 

Just as a side note, if you want something that will appear, be completely loyal, and do whatever you want for as long as you want, you are supposed to use "altered" Duplification. There is even an example of that in FREd next to Duplification in the sidebar. This is how I would design the Marvel villain Klaw who makes sound creatures which fight for him. Summoned things are willing to help for a period of time. Duplicated things are willing to help indefinately.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz

The problem with the severing the bond is that it only works for some F/X, take Aqua Wimp from the old SUperfriends cartoon:

 

His ability to summon sea life could be bought with summons (with appropriate limitations, or maybe not, them ariving on there own power and being in the area was definatly a F/X in some episodes), but assuming after the whale was there you dispelled it, the whale was not going to disapear, nor is it going to stop listining to Aquaman (It's ruler)

The summoned creature must depend on the SFX. In the Aquaman example, the whale does not disappear, it is still swimming in the ocean (and probably should have the Must Inhabit Location limitation). Aquaman "dispels" it by telling it to leave. The whale swims off and waits for Aquaman to call again.

 

With other effects it makes sense for it to remain but loose the amicable (Someone who can summon a demon slave)

 

And for yet more F/X it makes sense for it to make them go poof (the holosummons above).

I think that is decided when the Summon power is purchased. If you take the Arrives Under Own Power or Must Inhabit Local Limitations, then it is implied in the power that the creature is a real thing in the world. Summoning a demon would not have that Must Inhabit or Arrives Under Limitations, and thus it is assumed the creature is "ported" into the area by some effect. This would all be defined by the SFX when the player created the power.

[Arthur]

Under Summon:

 

"The summoned creature can choose to leave at any time..."

 

"In the case of beings from other planes of existence, they are assumed to have the power to return whenever they choose; terrestrial beings will use whatever means are available to them".

 

Does "nonexistence" count as "a plane of existence"? It seems the only other implied choice is for something like an ordinary animal who will travel under its own power. If these hologram beings are created from inside a device in the first place, then they don't seem to qualify as "terrestrial". Do they have to leave by running over the horizon?

 

"To force a Summoned being to leave...Dispel..., or otherwise coerce the being into leaving".

 

"Amicable:...for a +1 Advantage, the Summoned being... will do whatever he asks without question...(...perfect for robots...)"

 

1. The beings can return whenever they choose, or are coerced.

 

2. Amicable at +1 gives total control. If that is not coercion, what is?

 

Dispel or Suppress is for use against someone ELSE'S summoned being, or against one that wants to stay. This might be an amusing Side Effect in this case ("computer - disengage all safeties"). Professor Moriarty, anyone? Under normal circumstances the Amicable at +1 coupled with the default characteristics of a Summoned being gives you the power to pop it back at will.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Monolith

Just as a side note, if you want something that will appear, be completely loyal, and do whatever you want for as long as you want, you are supposed to use "altered" Duplification. There is even an example of that in FREd next to Duplification in the sidebar. This is how I would design the Marvel villain Klaw who makes sound creatures which fight for him. Summoned things are willing to help for a period of time. Duplicated things are willing to help indefinately.

 

I never realized. Honestly, I think I had a mental block on Duplication. I never read the description because I had a picture in my mind of what it was good for and I couldn't get past the "hokieness." Strange...

 

Since the basic character concept is a "1 man covert strike team." The extras would definately have to stick around for extended periods, say an assault on some compound. And, it would be a hastle if the Summons flicker off and on as he has to "restart" the program.

 

However, I have a problem if the Duplicate gets killed Conjurer should not loose the ability to call that duplicate again. I mean its just a hologram. Pay some end, reactivate, and go on, as long as the drone focus has not been destroyed.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

However, I have a problem if the Duplicate gets killed Conjurer should not loose the ability to call that duplicate again. I mean its just a hologram. Pay some end, reactivate, and go on, as long as the drone focus has not been destroyed.

Look at it this way, if you want 5, you pay the price for 8 anyway, so you have 3 in "reserve" if 3 get killed. When the reserves are all killed off (and once again we are talking about killing - taking to -10 BODY - not just knocking them out) you can buy 8 more reserves for 5 points (before Limitations). For a couple of additional character points you always have the number of Duplicates you need.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Monolith

Look at it this way, if you want 5, you pay the price for 8 anyway, so you have 3 in "reserve" if 3 get killed. When the reserves are all killed off (and once again we are talking about killing - taking to -10 BODY - not just knocking them out) you can buy 8 more reserves for 5 points (before Limitations). For a couple of additional character points you always have the number of Duplicates you need.

That was my first thought, then I went to the FAQ and read a little...

Q: Is it possible for a character to buy a “replacement†for a dead Duplicate, and if so, how?

 

A: There’s no specific provision within the rules for buying another Duplicate to replace the dead one. A GM who wanted to be lenient about it might want to consider charging +5 points — sort of as if the character were buying the Duplicate over again through the standard rule (but the character only gets the one Duplicate, not a doubling). A GM who wanted to be strict, or discourage this sort of thing, might require the character to buy his Duplication a second time, with just one Duplicate, to “re-create†the dead guy; or he might make the character buy some sort of Limited, one-time use of Resurrection Healing.

 

Therein lies the problem.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

That was my first thought, then I went to the FAQ and read a little...

 

Therein lies the problem.

I still do not see the problem. Even if you have to pay +5 point for each duplicate killed, exactly how many of these creatures do you think will actually be killed?

 

You could even buy Duplification with 32 Duplicates to begin with, and then never use more than 5 at a time. Then you could have 27 of them killed and never have to worry about spending an additional point.

 

The way I see it you have two options: Summon, but the loyal creatures are only temporarily loyal, or Duplification, but if one of the loyal creatures is killed you must rebuy it for 5 points. They both have plusses and negatives, and both can be modified by house rules; Summon, stating that a summoned creature will fight for you forever, and Duplification, stating that you can buy replacements at x2 for +5 points.